Topic awaiting preservation: Stop the war against Iraq (Page 1 of 4)

I'm against it, because i think that Bush's reasons are so inconvenient at all.

"Trust" is a dirty word that comes only from such a liar but "respect" is something I will learn...if you have faith!!

I think what you're trying to say is that his reasons aren't convincing. I think. What reasons are those? I understand that there are plenty but pick one and explain why you feel it isn't good enough. Just be prepared for some people to ask you questions that might make you change your mind... or strengthen your beliefs.

{To All}Remember people.... gently, gently...{/To All}

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

KILL SADDAM! KILL SADDAM! KILL SADDAM!

*quietly sits down and points to the silliness forum*

he's just doing all this because of his father.

"Trust" is a dirty word that comes only from such a liar but "respect" is something I will learn...if you have faith!!

You need to read up on this issue a little more before you set yourself down with an opinion.

most of the australians are against this...and I think that this Iraq war is just inhumane.
and America is such a coward, see?

"Trust" is a dirty word that comes only from such a liar but "respect" is something I will learn...if you have faith!!

I'm neither against nor for a war at the moment. I still don't think that all of the possible diplomatic channels have been exhausted quite yet.

I, like just about everyone else I've talked to about this, would love to see a peacfully resolution here but as it stands...

It feels like there's a war brewing. There's a lot of tough talk on both sides of the fence, probably because no one really knows what the hell is going on. The propoganda machines and gringing the midnight oil, threats and counter threats have been made, hate has been inspired.

Wars have been started over lesser things...

Edit: On and Yannah, our gonvernment isn't immune to this issue. It's not just America vs Iraq, after all, we've already sent several war ships and SAS troops to the gulf region.



[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 01-31-2003).]

Don't forget that the Cease Fire signed in 1991 was recently broken. Therefore, we will not see a new war! We will just resume our military action.

[Yannah]
I doubt that you represent the people of Australia so don't make comments such as "most of the Austrialians are against this." You must not know shit about Saddam Hussein if you think a war to remove him from power is inhumane. If you think America is a coward, go ahead and think that, but it is an irrational and illogical judgement.

drink RR, make beautiful PS, and smile at strangers... life is short enough as it is....

if that fails, lets have a war... humans are quite naturally inclined to self destruction, might as well be now as opposed to later....

~hops off towards the basement~

nicely said vp!

yes - enjoy your life, appreciate what you have, and make decisions that influence you and those around you instead of voicing opinions on subjects that you are more or less ignorant of.

live your life - deciding what you'll have for lunch will have greater effect on the future than deciding whether you agree with george dubya or not.

I'm not ignorant to this subject. I've been posting and researching daily on this subject. I've read countless articles of all biases on the U.S. vs. Iraq conflict. Everything. I'm tired of explaining to people why it's a good idea. There's too many idiots in the world to waste my time with... I'd rather be doing graphic design a wise man once said.

By the way, just so everyone knows, I posted a logo in the Print forum. Please check it out.

sigh....

did you just call america a coward? I mean really? Seems to me we were just attacked on our own soil.

Now personally I haven't seen the proof I'd like to warrant a war on Iraq and I also think we have domestic economic issues that are more dire. But spewing unsupported childlike nonsense like that is fucking crap. And I'm sure that there are plenty here willing to show you how uncowardly we are.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

Personally I had to laugh early this morning when I heard GWBush saying in an interview that sending in troops and starting a war is his absolute last option. Bullshit it is. He's wanted to do it ever since 9/11.

yes we have sent some SAS troop there, but they said Howard's still deciding about it.

Skaarjj, when William Jefferson C*****n was still the leader of the free world, people who trashed him personally were often referred to as C*****n-haters. And then there were those people who respectfully disagreed with him and his policies and were heard every bit as well if not more so.

You know this feels strange to say, but I think I would be more worried if Yannah were a hawk instead of a dove on this particular issue. At 15, I know I would have been agreeing with her.

. . : slicePuzzle

VP - I couldn't have said it better myself, cheers! We Michiganders always seem to have just the right words, eh?

heh

Again, I must agree with Bugs (stop doing that! )...though I agree that Saddam must go, I really am suspicious of Mr. Bush's motives...

He sure is not leaving much of a chance for a peaceful solution...but then, removing Saddam is probably not to be accomplished with peaceful means *sigh*

I really am concerned for the Iraqi people...I hope that, in the case of the removal of Saddam, that the international community really does rebuild Irag, and has a plan...but I don't see that, yet...

However, rabidly attacking Mr. Bush will not help the situation...it will only drive him into a corner (IMHO). Peaceful, thought-out disagreement...that's the ticket.

And as for America being a coward...*shrugs* I feel that is overdoing it...or simplifying the issue horrendously.

It's good to have you online again WS I've been working on some more stuff for you in the philosophy section. It seems Europe is now clearly divided between the responsible and the irresponsible countries with this latest OpEd piece 8 countries sent to the Wall Street Journal. Did you get a chance to read it?

Could be my sleep deprived brain (WS know's all about whatI'm going on about here)...but bigs...what are you going on about I can't seem to place a word of that.

I also love how much like a parent talking to a child who doesn't agree with what they're doing Bush sounds. He says to the Iraqi people 'We're doing this becuase it's in your best interest' Really? Who is he to deicde what'sin their best interest...and quite frankly, how can he say blowing them up, shooting them, destroying their homes and al lthe other things that come with general warfare in their country is in their best interest?

Skaarjj, saying that Dubya *wants* to kill Iraqis is an attack on his person and something that you simply cannot know. There is no way that he is happy about seeing Iraqis die and certainly not happy about seeing our soldiers die and I just don't see how you can sit there and state with all certainty that "He's wanted to do it ever since 9/11". That's what I'm on about.

Besides, do you have a problem with the UN resolutions on this matter? Do you disagree with the UN demand that Iraq disarm? Walk with me talk with me on this

Yes, Bugs...I'm more than aware of it...I am in Germany...hehe...so I get the 'Iraq' stuff everyday...*sigh*

You'd be amazed at the things I have to hear everyday...and of how ignorant a lot of the viewpoints are...

*sigh*

I always respond with 'Google is your friend. Research it, and come to your own conclusions'...most, though, do not...they just parrot what they hear, and read in the press...

I even had one woman who seriously tried to tell me that Vietnam was still two countries...(a long discussion, that eventually broke down...started with Iraq, and eventually went off topic). Another, from Turkey, told me that the US was 'preventing' Turkey from drilling for oil in Turkey! After first clarifying the issue, this person was talking about the Kurdish regions of Iraq! Which is not a part of Turkey!

So, I get hit with this type of stuff everyday...

And yes, I am aware that the majority of Europe is behind Mr. Bush's war plan.

Vietnam is two countries!!! Hilarious!!! I have a friend who will be going there to visit after having escaped 12 years ago. He's going back as a tourist and to visit a few remaining family members. They're slowly opening up and hopefully will soon throw off those damnable shackles.

I never said that he *wants* to kill them...that would imply a personal connection, and I don't thnk he's about to pick up a rifle and go out in the field. I'm also not saying that he wants them killed, what I was pointing out was the contrast betwwen 'We're doing this for your own good' and the death and destruction that goes hand-in-hand with warfare. It's not like you can deny that. What I'd like to know is how he thinks he has the right to dictate what is in Iraq's best interests. Does he live there? No. Is he from there? No. Does he know anything of the country and its people aside from what he reads in intelligence reports and the like? No. So how can he dictate what is good for them and what is bad for them.

And bugs, I never brought up the UN resolutions. I personally don't know much about them. The UN says he should disarm? Fine...let him do that. At least the UN is a democratic body representing many nations, not just the interests of a few. Say what you like...GWB is calling the shots on it...in Australia John Howard is following along like a good little sheep, kissing arse all the while.

The UN weapons inspectors have so far failed to find any evidence that he has Nuclear Weapons...and so far GWB's reason for going ot war is becuase 'we know he has them'. Well if he knows he has them, and I mean knows it...sure as eggs is eggs, then he must have an idea where they are...why hasn't this been shared with the weapon inspectors so that they can look there. If he actually has evidence of them being there, why hasn't it been shared around. If he has proof...why does he refuse to show it?

I disagree with the UN entirely. What a joke! Did you know Libya is the UN Human Rights Chair? And that Iraq is on the First Committee of Disarmament and International Security!? What's this world coming to when the violator of disarmament resolutions is also on the committee? The UN is an organization and like any organization, it becomes corrupt over time. The UN is not backed my military power, therefore, in politics, the UN is powerless. No military power equals no power to enforce resolutions. It's a great place to work though. I knew someone who's dad worked for the UN. He was rolling in the big bucks!



[This message has been edited by Morgan Ramsay (edited 01-31-2003).]

Skaarjj, I guess we've already hit most of those questions here and here.

In this case (Bugs, I said stop doing that! ), I have to agree with Bugs...it has been discussed before, in the threads that Bugs so graciously pointed out...

And it's not necessarily about nuclear weapons, but Weapons of Mass destruction...which includes chemical and biological agents, as well as nuclear...NBC for short.

I would think that nano-weapons will also make the list in the future...and maybe genetic/cloning things...and possibly laser/energy weapons...all capable of being used for purposes of mass-destruction.

As for the UN...well, the security council is a small organisation within the UN...and a sore point (as well as a stumbling block) to true democratic processes...albeit that it, in and of itself, is democratic in nature...it excludes a large part of the world from participating...and so, on a bigger scale, is not really democratic at all...

Ok gentlemen..oyu've made your ponit. I'm oing to graciously witdraw here, since I'm tooo tried to continue this debbate coherenlety aynway

I dont agree with sadam hussiens domestic policies, i certainly despise the way he has treated his people.

This isnt anything like the last time the gulf flared up, he had invaded a foreign nation.

This time he hasn't, Just because people do not like his policies, does not give anyone the right to remove him from power, hell that would lead to new precidents.

The key issue is has he got rid of all of his weapons of mass destruction yes or no?

Untill that can be proved 100% either way then commiting to a war is wrong, George bush has said he has lots of evidence, then he should share it, the security council with the permanent member system ensures that if someone decides on a course of action that will be backed by the UN, that everyone thinks it is fair. The veto system is there as a safeguard.

Now bush approached the un for resolutions to back up the disarmament process, but now because he may not get that final approval without 100% evidence, he says he will go ahead without the UN approval. THAT IS SIMPLY WRONG.

It will be based on what they THINK not what they KNOW, the inspectors have already stated that there is no nuclear/atomic program.

The warheads found, contained no evidence of ever being used or having chemical or biological agents inside.

So unless someone can show 100% that there are weapons of mass distruction, then i think putting troops on the ground, or attacking by air is wrong.

quote:

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Don't forget that the Cease Fire signed in 1991 was recently broken. Therefore, we will not see a new war! We will just resume our military action.

[Yannah]
I doubt that you represent the people of Australia so don't make comments such as "most of the Austrialians are against this." You must not know shit about Saddam Hussein if you think a war to remove him from power is inhumane. If you think America is a coward, go ahead and think that, but it is an irrational and illogical judgement.

:Morgan Ramsey

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MR where the f..k did you get that crap from, do you know personally what is being said in australia, there are a lot of people against this for the reasons i have stated, but to brush aside a comment like that, without being able to prove otherwise is ignorant and at best rude ill mannered and impolite.

the america is a coward part i dont agree with myself, however i think that the leadership needs a big wake up call. They approached the UN, they used its channels... They should be prepared to stand by that system, not take a unilateral approach if things dont go their own way like a spoilt kid. To many times in history has this happened, not just the us government.

Dont get me wrong I have been on the firing line in a warzone, i have been prepared to possibly die, but in this case at the moment i think unless proof is there then military action is wrong.

Ok as for the ceasefire being broken, when what where and how? If that was the case, then that alone would allow military action, under the terms of the 91 ceasefire agreement.

ALso on a side note:

Anyone remebr Agent orange in vietnam (chemical weapon used by US Forces)

Anyone remember when america used weapons of mass distruction twice in as many weeks on civilian targets.???

I am gonna throw a quote in here froma another thread (webshamen threw this link in), this is from people that actually fought in the first gulf war, and thier thoughts on the present state of affairs...

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Twelve years ago, at roughly 2:00 a.m. local time on January 17, I was ready to go off guard duty when the call came down from the command post to wake up the platoon leaders ASAP. Not long after, we got the official word: U.S. forces were in contact. Lieutenant Dorr, my platoon leader, came back and briefed us: A hundred tomahawk missiles had been launched, and Special Forces were engaged behind the lines. We didn't need the briefings; all we had to do was look up at the sky to see hundreds of planes heading north for their bombing runs.


Imagine if Ronald Reagan had announced in 1985 that we were going back to Vietnam, and this time we were going to take out those commies. That's how surreal the whole discussion of invading Iraq is, because we have just about as much justification today. At least in 1991, we had the very real fact that Iraq had invaded and occupied its neighbor as justification for the war (forget that the U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie gave Saddam the go-ahead), and the just-war theorists had a lively debate. It was a fight in Congress and a very close vote, a vote that was swung by lies of babies thrown out of incubators concocted in a DC public relations firm.


The result of all this is clear: friends injured on the front lines in Iraq, 12 men in my division killed in action and many more wounded, tens of thousands more who came home sick. Only this week new research was published proving that the chemicals we were exposed to not only caused brain damage but also damaged fertility. This research vindicated thousands of veterans who reported their illnesses 10 years ago only to be told their ailment was in their heads.


Now, 12 years later, it is time for the country to sit up and listen to its veterans ? starting with figures including Generals Anthony Zinni and Norman Schwarzkopf who have consistently urged caution, certified war heroes such as Col. David Hackworth, and the hundreds of veterans who have signed petitions for Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans against the Iraq War.


As veterans who have served in wartime, it is our moral responsibility to ensure that those who serve in uniform today are not sent into battle without just cause. It is our moral responsibility to ensure that they don't needlessly die in a faraway desert for motivations that are unclear. Hold no illusions: Hundreds, possible thousands of Americans will die in the coming war. Tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of Iraqis will die in the coming war.


All across America, hundreds of thousands of citizens are marching this week, calling out to their government to listen to the people, and in many cases they are joined or led by veterans. No one knows the horrors of war better than someone who has had a friend die in his arms. No one knows the horrors of war better than someone who lives with the memory of having killed another human being.


The tide is turning. Today, the majority of Americans see war against Iraq as unwarranted and unnecessary. But we must keep at it, keep talking, keep putting up signs, until Bush's war on America and Iraq is brought to a halt.


Twelve years ago, among the lights that flew so high over us in the desert night, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher was shot down over Iraq and never came home. Before the war ground to a halt in March untold thousands more died, at least some of them at my hand. Before the decade was over, another million innocent Iraqi civilians died. That must forever lie on the conscience of Americans, and the world, for letting it happen.


When I was in the Army, they taught me to respect and protect civilians, not to kill them. This war does nothing to protect American lives, but it will do everything to destroy the lives of many thousands of Iraqis and Americans. This war will not protect us from weapons of mass destruction, but it will make it more likely Iraq will try to use them. This war will not liberate the Iraqi people, but it will do everything to ensure they receive a new master, one ruled by corporate profits and oil to fuel more American consumption.


This war isn't worth the life of one American soldier. This week, thousands of American soldiers from my old post, Fort Stewart, are loading up on planes and deploying to Kuwait, to fight a war on our behalf. They go because it is their job, and because it is their mission to protect us.


It is now our mission to protect them.


Charles Sheehan-Miles, a Gulf War veteran and a co-founder of Veterans for Common Sense, is a former president of the National Gulf War Resource Center and author of the novel, "Prayer at Rumayla".

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here is the source of that quote

Thanks WS for that link in a previous thread



[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 01-31-2003).]

Bugs: Was that tongue in cheek?:

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responsible and the irresponsible countries

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___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Ok there has been said a lot on this topic, a lot of questions and some answers.
I also has an opinion on the matter. But let me first make some things clear.
1) Saddam has to go oneday
2) What happenend on 9-11 was realy bad,
3) The USA has not had a war on his own ground since the civilian-war or since it's existence.
4) The Last 25 years there was a lot of war going on around and in iraq.
5) Arabs are pretty angry since Israel is founded in their midst.
6) Both Iraq and the USA are oil producing countries. Most european countries are not.
7) The first gulf war has costed the lives off 100.000 iraqi's
8) Saddam is constantly on the move, some day in one of his palaces the other as an iraqi civilian walking on the market.
10) There are +/- 10 stand-ins for saddam who also are moving around a lot.
11) North-Korea is very open about it's intention to create the and atomic bomb.
12) Saddam will not give in whatever happens.

Knowing this facts, i think the best thing what could be done is not going to war with iraq.
Here is what i think would happen when the war starts.
Arabs and palestines will be realy angry and thus wil fuel their need for suicide terrorists, since that is as 9-11 proved an very efective waepon. Ghadaffi, who has let lot of those guys train in his country in the past will help any terrorist. Possible the arabs and palestines will close their ranks. And so forming an formidable block of power in the then overheating middle-east and the world. The other weapons they then could use is stopping or lessening the oil flow. Wich could harm both the european and the american economies.
I think it is not possible to capture saddam whitout destroyng the most off iraq and thus the lives of most iraqi's.
And do not think the remaining iraqi's will be pleased with such an action. An then instead of turning iraq into the friendly nation we all want it to be, i think it is going to be a real pain in the ass.
As for as i know iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 so if they are hit that bad they do have another reason to get angry. Also i did not remember hearing anything about any balistic missiles, or airplanes who could start in iraq and could be a thread for the the USA. The last ten years iraq was not allowed to import anyting they could use to make any dangerous weapon. European, American and other vessels and plains did control this very good.
Even when something has slipped throug it will not be enough to be a real danger.
So recap if the war in iraq will start
-the middle-east will be on fire.
-there will be more terrorists than ever.
-european, american, and prob's other important economies will get a real hard-time
-a lot off inocant people will die.
-And i my darkest scenario it will eventually lead us all in one massive holy war......





~So it's your birthday today? congratulations and have a nice day. So it's not? have a nice day too~

[This message has been edited by Rinswind 2th (edited 01-31-2003).]

... <-- look it's the periods again! reitsma... are you going to make a prediction of my return again?

[This message has been edited by Morgan Ramsay (edited 01-31-2003).]

That still does not give you the right ot tell Yannah that she does not know what she is talking about. I can tell you for a fact myself that most australian are either apathetic towards or opposed to war on Iraq. You do not live here Morgan...so do not presume to tell us what we do and do not feel.



[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 01-31-2003).]

quote:

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Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

.: Dead Kennedys :.

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___________________________
Money is the game other people play, that I try to avoid by having just enough not to play it.
-Norman Mailer
[Dufty][Cell 698]

[Skaarj]
I never made such an assumption. You're taking the entire statement out of context. Jeez, this is why I hate the Asylum....

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I doubt that you represent the people of Australia so don't make comments such as "most of the Austrialians are against this."

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That is exactly what I said. I doubt (and I know) that an anonymous individual on the Internet does not represent an entire nation. Don't get all self-righteous with me.


[This message has been edited by Morgan Ramsay (edited 01-31-2003).]

Ok now i have emotional problems because you think people dont know shit???? and i dont like what ya post??

So far all you have done is talk utter crap in this thread, or voiced opinions that are not backed by any fact, when confronted with this, you resort to either name calling, or sliding off into the shadows....

quote:

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KILL SADDAM! KILL SADDAM! KILL SADDAM!

*quietly sits down and points to the silliness forum*
morgan ramsey

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quote:

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I'm not going to backup any of my statements since I've done so a million times before -- not specifically on these forums but on others.

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Well show us these links to your posts elewhere so we can see what eveidence you have to support your case for war


as for the australians and the fact you are right.....

quote:

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Wednesday 29 January: Do you think George Bush is doing a good job?
Yes: 15946 (32%)
No: 33624 (68%)

Tuesday 28 January: Does the US have just cause to wage a war against Iraq?
Yes: 17977 (38%)
No: 29816 (62%)

Monday 27 January: Do you think war with Iraq can still be avoided?
Yes: 13154 (55%)
No: 10553 (45%)

Thursday 23 January: Should Australian troops be going to the Gulf without UN approval?
Yes: 13222 (25%)
No: 38870 (75%)

Monday 20 January: Do you support as UN-backed war against Iraq?
Yes: 29157 (49%)
No: 30207 (51%)

Tuesday 14 January: Should Australia be more concerned about North Korea than Iraq?
Yes: 19575 (67%)
No: 9515 (33%)

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from Australian web site

so by those figures i think yannah's opinion is that of the majority in Australia

I guess that means you are wrong....again.....

At least try and back things up when you are so postive you are right,

and finally

quote:

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I never made such an assumption. You're taking the entire statement out of context. Jeez, this is why I hate the Asylum....

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point 1:

You said you made a true statement that her opinion does not reflect that of most australians.....

look at facts and figures....above

you hate the asylum??? well get the fuck out...its that easy anyone can leave, why stay if its that bad????

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I thought Yannah said "all" not "majority." It's late.

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her exact quote was

quote:

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most of the australians are against this...

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[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 01-31-2003).]

watch this.

[This message has been edited by Morgan Ramsay (edited 01-31-2003).]

That individual though never said she represented the nation...and what were you saying about making unwarranted assumptions? Way to shit all over your own arguments by going and repeating the 'mistakes' you've picked up in other people's.

and I quote:

quote:

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most of the australians are against this.

-- Yannah

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An individual can express the opinion of most of the nation though if that person has an affirmed source that said opinion is valid...so there it goes...Tomeaglescz has presented the evidence that Yannah is right...Opinion polls taken of Australians...most of us DON'T support the war.

Now...before you go and tell us that we do evil things by making unwarranted assumptions, just make sure you don't trip over your own dragging arguments not practicing what you preach.

Don't let the cell door hit you in the arse on the way out.

Why is that you two are incredibly self-righteous? Do you have nothing better to do?

erm i am just simply putting forward the case for yannah's statement that most australians are against a war with iraq, now if you have a problem with that:

I guess by your own words you have emotional problems and need psychological help, if you find this affetcs you in such a place as the asylum