Topic awaiting preservation: How to go to heaven "GUARANTEED" (Page 2 of 2)

Ruski, I'm sorry but I may have caused you some confusion by using the shorthand Xianity. That means Christianity. You should be able to find tons on that

Ohh bugs I dont understand that "living sacrifice" please explain as simple as possible...

Many religions performed sacrifices in order to please God/gods. For the Jews, animal sacrifice was required by God. The idea of sacrificing for God is not common to our modern culture but to the people that first read the New Testament that I quoted it was extremely commonplace for both the Jews and the Romans. The letter I quoted to you about living sacrifices was written specifically to the first church in Rome.

Anyway, living sacrifice means that everything we do as Christians should be dedicated to God. God no longer requires animal sacrifice because Jesus Christ was the final sacrifice when He died on the cross. It is done.

So whether I am driving to work, reading my little girl a book, or serving God at my local congregation, everything I do should be done to please God. That means that I will do my best to live according to the first paragraph I quoted you... I will love God and I will love everybody else. In this way, my life becomes something pleasing to God which is what sacrificing to Him was ever supposed to be.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-02-2003).]

as usual bugs has stated pretty much anything i could've said far more articulately and eloquently than i could've. i will add one thing though...

one generalization i often see of Christianity is that its only about "following the rules", you're a sheep and just living blindly by a set of commandments and that's all there is to it. as bugs alluded to that's how it was before Christ in the jewish faith, there was a strict set of laws regarding work, diet, dress, behavior, etc., and you made a sacrifice to God when you fell short of those "rules". Christ came to abolish the law, not that there are no rules but that there's an acknowledgement that you will fall short of perfection and sin (i.e. miss the mark). and let's be honest, those rules so often generalized by non-Christians really aren't so nonsensical, are they? honor your father and mother...do not commit adultery...do not kill...few would argue that these are bad ideas.

so what is it about Christianity? is it the mindless masses that we see "convert" to give themselves fire insurance and take everything the bible says at face value and then go about living their lives in the exact same way they did before? that's certainly a negative thing, but then again mindless masses are nothing new in any part of society. they were bulls' fans 6 years ago and lakers' fans the last 3 years and this year they don't know what the heck to do because shaq and kobe can't put up 30 points a game combined.

my faith isn't lived out of a book though, its lived in an everyday life. its lived among friends and co-workers who see something different in me that they can't explain. sure, i've still got that book for guidance, but much more than that its an inner sense that just knows what's right whether it goes against the mainstream opinion or not. and i doubt parts of that book all the time and research and question and debate things to myself and with others, that's only human and a side effect of being a thinking and questioning kind of person. but whatever i might try to argue, there's been a change in me that's real and undeniable that no other person or thing or dollar amount was able to create and i can't argue with that. if that's a purely psychological effect then i don't know why it didn't work the first 22-odd years i tried to really believe it, but it didn't. go figure...

"Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words when necessary." - St. Francis of Assisi

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Nicely said, Peter...

Lacuma, if you like that, maybe Peter will bring back the Path...if he does, I suggest you read some of the stuff there...he does have a gift, as Bugs pointed out.

One question to the Xians...do you think that Ghandi then went to hell? He didn't believe in Jesus...

I'm just curious...he was a great man of Peace...and a strong warrior, of non-violence. He literally lived the ideals of the christian faith...with the exception of believing in Jesus...is he in Heaven, or Hell?

this quote may be taken out of context but nevertheless i believe it to be truth

"God is no respecter of persons; But in every nation he that feareth(reverences) him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

i cannot judge the motives behind how Ghandi lived his life. his motives may have been pure but, for all i know, he might have been seeking only self glorification. that is between him and God.

edit/quote from Shaman's post--"...maybe Peter will bring back the Path"--i'd love to hear more about this--

~out~

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 02-04-2003).]

Well, outcydr, that really didn't answer my question...

As for the Path...drop Peter (DarkGarden) a mail...he's the man to talk to the Path about...

thnx Shaman -you puzzle me- you seem very open minded - i sometimes wonder if you aren't just playing devil's advocate

edit/no offence intended

as for a direct answer to your question--my best guess, sad to say, would be hell--not that i believe in hell as espoused by most "christians"

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 02-04-2003).]

Devil's Advocate?

No.

You see, I have wondered over this for some time...according to how I interpret the Bible, Ghandi must have gone to hell...but that is strictly my interpretation...and because I am far from an expert when it comes to Biblical matters, I ask those that have more knowledge than I.

Ghandi is one that I deeply respect. A man that was willing to sacrifice his whole life, and existance, in the principle of non-violence. An idea, that the world has seemingly refuted. Now, I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, that's true...that's something for people who do believe. It just seems strange, that such a man would be condemned to Hell, soley on the basis of one, little thing...the belief that Jesus is the savior. I somehow can't seem to draw the connection...why is that so important? If someone leads an exemplarary life (esp. like Ghandi did), then why must the belief in that, be the only criteria?

It just seems...a bit arbitrary, to me...and I just wanted to clear that bit up...

Personal Awareness.

Personal Responsibility.

Are you a "good" person?

Will you measure that on the tennets of a book, or the feeling of your thoughts? You're influenced by what you CHOOSE to believe. That's the rub of it, and the beauty of being you. If you create God to have created you, then I applaud it. If you destroy God for the sake of your own salvation...then I continue clapping.

I'm sorry if someone sat around staring blankly. It was far from the intention, just as I'm far from being profound. See what I'm spouting, is me. My beliefs. My "religion".

Do any of you know why I so greatly respect the opinions and posts of Bugs?

We see in polar opposites at times, and have been on opposing sides of some deep seated topics. For all intents and purposes we could be seen as creator and destructor. It has absolutely nothing to do with WHAT Bugs believes that I so enjoy having conversations (of a sort here) with him. It has everything to do with HOW he believes.

Passion. Perseverence. Presence.

This man isn't swayed by opposing viewpoints, but he's influenced by the logic behind them. He annunciates his views with clarity and care. An open hand presupposing a closed fist. And when the wheat is separated from the chaff, I like to think that you'd find that we're not so very different at the core. Looking to understand, to learn, to see, to elucidate, to grow...in whatever path that is. I can say something about the man's posts that I rarely say when people ramble on in message boards: I have taken in what he has to say, and been influenced by it with respect.

I don't see anything profound in that whatsoever, aside from an understanding of personal awareness, and personal responsibility.

If we're ever grouped in the same categories I'd be proud to be in it.

----------------------------------------------

Summarily I say...you choose. YOU do that. Noone will see the world as you see it, influenced by the life that you've lead, the things that you've seen, the deeds that you've done...or had done to you. Finding the way...is finding Your way. And pray to yourself, or some other symbol that you manage to be half of what you've seen around you...or rather all of what's inside you.

Oh...and the Path might come back. I'm not sure. Someday when I'm alive enough for it. But it's hardly worthy of comment in this conversation



Thanks for the thought though WS.

High praise, coming from you, Peter...but IMHO Bugs has earned it...I truly enjoy debating with and against him...especially in the Formal Debate...he sure kept me on my toes...

Nice post, BTW.

whispers 'The Path...'

On the thing earlier about satanism... oh, I dunno, a few billion posts up, I don't know any satanists, but I [i]am[i] one, and (this goes out to u, Fig) satanism isn't a dead-end religion. If u must know, they don't even believe in satan, in fact, Christianity and similar religions (catholicism, jewish, jahova's witness... basically... jesus religions) are the only religions that actually have a satan. Satanism is basically the belief that all religions are total bull shit.

Stanists do not sacrifice anything, nor do they follow satan or anything similar. The name satanism comes from the Christian belief that satan declared himself more powerful than god, and Satanism states "u r 'god' within urself; do as u wish (and so on)". Actually, it is more a name tag than a name. The christians had a devil thing that existed in hell, and a bunch of antagonists, wiccans, greeks, romans, and others to convert, so, they began labeling ppl as satanists and deffining satanists as some virgin-sacrificing, pig killing motha'-fucka'.

Sorry for posting something that was past over a while back, but those statements were almost offensive; I had to say somethin'.

Oh wow...

...Have you ever read the book "The Satan Seller," or read anything by that German guy who is into writing books documenting the occult (I forgot his name, sorry)?

What I remember was, and this comes from a true story, since The Satan Seller is an autobiography, is several things

When he was initiated into the "Satanist Religion," he wrote his name in blood in a book, and swore his life to serving Satan.

The actually did try to do a virgin sacrafice (or maybe it wasn't a virgin, but a sacrafice non-the-less), but they stopped themselves.

They were conjuring/invoking demons to hurt people.

--

The other books on the occult clearly made it clear that Satanists were actually worshipping Satan...And very much so.

loonatykhye, first of all, welcome to the Asylum.

Second of all, I think we all understand there are "satanists" like you describe yourself. "Do as thou wilt" and all that. But just because there are those like yourself who have nothing to do with the Satan of the bible, doesn't mean there aren't groups out there who actually do try to follow him.

I'm not sure I've seen any actual evidence of these groups (I haven't read the book CFB mentions) but I think the probability they exist is pretty high just given the vast numbers of outrageous things we humans come with.

Well, I've not only seen direct evidence that they exist, I've actually had friends that were in fringe groups...happened in the Tri-cities, Washington, as I was in college. A friend of mine, his friend was murdered by cultists...made the local news big-time...that's when he finally found out just what reality was...and got his behind out of that fringe...as for that cult, some got arrested, and charged...but the real perps melted away...'protected' from the minor cultists that got caught.

Real Satanists don't advertise their presence.

I live in the Columbia Gorge, which, although being one awesome and beutifull area, has TONS of occultic activity surrounding it. Since the large majority of it is wooded, it offers a pretty good way for Occultists to cover up there doing here. Every so often, you hear about Satanic rituals etc going on.

To: Everyone

Hey everybody! I'm new around here. And I'd like to comment on some things.
I'm a Christian and this is what I believe is required of you to be one:
Get saved. Read the Bible. Talk to God. Try to live a life pleasing to Him. If you mess up, ask his forgiveness and try not to do the same thing again and especially don't do it on purpose. This is how I live my Christianity and I hope that I'll make it to heaven this way. I'd love some feedback. Especially some feedback from Insider.

-JFritzyB

loonatykhye, you're entitled to believe what you want to believe as am i, and my comments would obviously seem to be directed at those who profess a more occult belief and worship of satan, i realize the term is applied different ways. bugs and ws have mentioned anything else i'd have to say on the subject for the most part.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

WS - That's a question I've often wondered myself, how someone who acts exactly like Jesus would (without actually taking the time to Believe) could be condemned.

Bugimus wrote:

quote:

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I believe that the *only* way to heaven is through Christ. Without Him there is no hope of eternal life. Personally, I believe this even includes those who never had a chance to know Him. As I will outline in my longer answer, not all Xians believe those who never hear are doomed. But I have verses that back up my position.

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Bugs - I can't find the 'other thread' you reference in this post, but I am curious to hear you expand on your belief about what happens to the ever-present theoretical eskimos, the martians, etc. who have never been exposed to Christianity.

Well, Wangenstein, Bugs did answer this question...but I'm sure he'll answer it again.

Basically, the Verses say that they go to hell. Personally, I can't wait to meet up with Mr. Ghandi...

Imagine him in hell...hehe...'We are civilly disobeying Satan!'

He is probably in solitary confinement...

Yeah, I guess he did. I just wonder why that theoretical eskimo should burn when it's the missionaries' fault they didn't make it up there to bring the Word to him in time...

It's concepts like that that make me wonder how Christians can be taken aback when they're told that their religion is based on fear, rather than love.

<Snippy thought> Of course, it's possible that such an 'ignorance of the Word is no excuse' clause was introduced in order to get the majority of Christians off the hook for doing such a rotten job of exposing people to their religion. </Snippy thought>

Myself, I'm just hoping Nikola Tesla wasn't sufficiently good (or sufficiently Christian) either, so I can have some long talks with the man. He was brilliant!

[Edit: don't really need a sig]

[This message has been edited by Wangenstein (edited 04-15-2003).]

wang: nicola tesla was an absolute legend - at least we can agree on that!

as for the rest of your comments - ouch. there's some pretty harsh words there.

hopefully, you can see that fear is not the main driving force.

first, it's a faith that all of these things - hell, heaven, consequences, christ - exist.

then, it's a realisation of what we, as humans, deserve.

then, a belief that christ offers salvation.

then, an acceptance of salvation.

following that, a life of thanks (this is the human bit, and not always done so well....)

and finally, heaven.

(now, i'm sorry if that sounds all 'airy fairy religious mumbo jumbo', but that's the best/only way i know how to convey it as concisely as possible.)

sure, i have a healthy fear of hell. what actions stem from that? thanks to christ, for the fact that i know i'm not heading there. urgency, to try and convince others that it is a reality, and an avoidable one.

i have to say that other religions, where salvation is based on works, seem to be based much more on fear - the sole reason for people doing whatever good things they do is to avoid hell, although they are never sure if they've done enough.

and as far as the other topic, of whether those who have never heard of God go to heaven or hell, i have only two points for now (as it's a can of worms i don't want to open right now!):

• God is constantly descibed as Just, and Merciful. He is the one and only perfect judge, who has all of the evidence, knows all of the facts, knows all actions, and the motivation behind 'em. He'll make the call accordingly. As for me, i'm not going to try and say that i could tell you what he would decide.
• This applies to those who have never heard of God, and His plan for us. Sorry boys (and gals), but that doesn't include any of you! So, no matter what happens to those eskimo folk, if this whole Xianity turns out to be the real McCoy, you will have full accountability for your decisions and actions. And if it's not true, i'll eat my hat (or at least decompose with it).

[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 04-17-2003).]

Actually, Wang, I know what your talking about.

I'm not exactly the perfect, uber-christian that I wish I could be, and I often times feel myself...slipping. I get this feeling, like: What if God came back for use today, what would he think of me? Would I go to Hell?

It's definatly not healthy to think that way, since I definitly am Christian in an actual sense, being that I love God, Jesus, and I would defend (well...to my death) that Jesus is alive. It made me think of "Bowling for Columbine," (Good movie) and how we Americans people live in fear, and that drives our society, more or less. It seems that your talking about Christianity like this, and I think that it is far from the truth, despite what even I sometimes beleive/think. Christianity is about a relationship with God. Hell is a deterant, while Heaven is an incentive. Unfortunatly, I think of the deterant more than the incentive, but...

...But, on a day to day basis, I find myself not afraid, and not driven by fear. I think that, and of course it's just my opinion and nothing against you, that you're slightly off base on that point.

Good stuff, reitsma. I want to outline my views on the "those that never hear" question. I honestly don't remember if I outlined it here or in another thread so here goes:

First of all, I want to point out the opposite of what I believe from those Xians who are actually Universalists. Please read this page to understand their argument. This page is a very brief summation of the doctrine and by no means meant to be a comprehensive outline: A Simple Argument for Universalism

reitsma, you seem to fall somewhere between what I'm about to say and Universalism. And please note that even in my own congregation I think most would agree with what you've said. Nothing wrong with that, I just believe it is important to state as clearly as each of us can understand what the scriptures say on the subject.

In the gospel of John, Jesus was trying to explain the kingdom of God to Nicodemus. He wasn't just a common man, he was a Pharisee who was well versed in Jewish law. He was trying to understand what Jesus was teaching. Here's a bit of Jesus' explanation:

quote:

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Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.
--John 3:11-21

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I want to expand on the Old Testament reference Jesus uses about Moses lifting the serpent up in the desert. (I've italicized it above) The reference comes from the book of Numbers:

quote:

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The people spoke against God and Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food."
The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.
So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people.
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."
And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
--Numbers 21:5-9

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The point I want to make here is to show how I view our "condition" without salvation. Our condition is that of being bitten by one of those snakes. We have all been bitten by this lethal thing called sin. We will all die in our sins unless something is done to change that. It's not like God is going around just waiting to send everyone to hell. Our sinful condition that we inherited from Adam (the first human) is this life we live for a short time and then die both physically and spiritually.

I see the situation with the people who are outside of Christ just like the camp of Israel with these snakes slithering around biting everyone. Consider for a moment what it must have been like to be a member of the Israelites when you were wandering the desert in tribes hundreds of thousands in population. Moses erected this serpent on the staff in one spot. That meant that the word that there was a cure for the snakebites had to reach the entire nation so that people could come and be healed. So if the people near the bronze serpent never went out and told the others it was there, what would have happened to the outlying tribes?

So this is the first reason I'm giving from the scriptures as to why I believe those who have never heard are in big trouble.

The second one I would like to mention is from Paul's letter to the church in Ephesus:

quote:

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Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
--Ephesians 2:11-13

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Paul seems pretty clear to me that those outside of God's plan were and are toast.

Now I want to show the third reason by going to Paul's letter to the church in Rome. In the first few chapters he makes the case that the Law of Moses and the law of the Gentiles that they knew from their God-given consciences condemned *everyone* both Jew and Gentile alike. Why? Because it showed all of humanity that we were incapable of living up to God's standard of perfection of flawlessly following rules and regulations.

Here's the juicy bits:

quote:

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All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
--Romans 2:12-15

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Both Jews and Gentiles cannot be said to be ignorant of God's law. The Jews had it handed to them by Moses and the Gentiles who never heard of Moses knew inherently from their consciences.

quote:

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Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
--Romans 3:20-24

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Here's the point, if both Jews and Gentiles were toast because of the Law and the only way out of that mess is through a righteousness from God, apart from law, then to avoid being toast people *must* know about this righteousness that Paul speaks of. This is a famous way of putting this imperative I'm describing:

quote:

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As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?
--Romans 10:11-15

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Wang, far from being let off the hook, it is because of my read of these verses that I believe missionary work is paramount to the Christian faith. I can see no excuse for not reaching as many people as we can with the good news. It's a big task and can be a very dangerous one at times. I'm actually a wimp and honestly am not ready to die as a missionary in places where that is common. I am not, however, without means to support missionaries who are not wimps like me. This works out nicely since for them to go, someone has to support the going (maybe someday in retirement Wella and I can devote ourselves to the mission field... we'll see)


So Wangenstein, I spent most of my evening on this because you asked and because I want to be clear as to why I believe the things I do. Believe me, I understand that this view is based on a book and a religion that you and many others here think it bunk. All I ask, and I think I speak for a few other Xians here when I say this, is that you consider what we believe and do your best to understand clearly what we're saying. We can't and won't try to shove this down anyone's throat, as that would contravene other teachings in our faith. We present it to you and you take it or leave it. I will finish by thanking you for asking the question and thanking you for allowing reitsma and myself (and I just looked as saw that CFB posted while I was compiling this response) to give you a data dump of our best understanding of these things.

Umm...am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying that before Christ, no-one was free enough from sin, to go to heaven o_O??

Party in Hell!

That would mean it must be pretty lonely up there...I think I'd rather be among my people, actually.

I've always seen the biggest problem of judeaism/christianity to be that the 'rest of the world' wasn't really known about when they were developed, and things just weren't taken into consideration.

I always find that there is a great deal of abstract conjecture and 'let's not touch that issue' when talking about people around the world who would never have been exposed to jesus or moses or noah or adam.

why would god choose to only relay his message to one small group of people in small part of the world?

Perhaps his message was only meant for the jews, and his rules don't apply to the rest of us anyway

I also find the capitalization of such things as his to be a rather silly thing =)

Heh heh. WS, that is the question that Ruski asked a while back that I have not gotten around to. The short answer is NO. There was a way to heaven BEFORE Christ died on the cross. I honestly am working on this question because I've never understood it well. But consider that Paul said that Abraham "believed God" and it was counted to him as righteousness. It is clear that Paul was saying that Abraham's faith made all the difference. I've heard teachers say that all of the OT history points forward to the victory on the cross. But how did this relate to non Jews in the OT? I'm honestly not sure at this point.

I haven't had the opportunity to read everything to come after my last post, but I wanted to apologize for the tone of bitterness in it. Right before I posted, I was reading a old email from a girl I wanted to date in high school, but who wouldn't even consider me because the elders of her faith decreed ("suggested") that they shouldn't date outside the faith. My bitterness over their meddling has stuck with me all these years, and occasionally manifests itself in unfortunate places.

Sorry about that. I'll post again once I read everything (I see Bugs posted a BIG one!)...

[Edit: Okay, having read through all the posts above, I can see what Bugs and Reitsma and CFB are saying, even if I don't understand how they believe in it. Like DL, I think there are too many holes in the Bible (due to misconceptions of the time about the size of the world, what peoples existed at the time, etc.) that people try to interpretively backfill. Thanks to all three of you (particularly Bugs!) for taking the time to answer my question. Like WS, I'm interested to hear Bugs answer to the 'non-jews in the OT' question.]

[This message has been edited by Wangenstein (edited 04-16-2003).]

Yeah, now my curiousity is really piqued...could be, that my people were going to Heaven, before Jesus showed up and put a stop to it...

Maybe that's why he came...'What are all these Indians doing up here?', said God one day, 'And you! Yes you! Quit scalping my angels! That's it! Something has to be done about this. Jesus! I want you to go down to earth...'



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 04-16-2003).]

One quick reply, WS... you're familiar with Mormon theology are you not? They say Jesus came over here to preach to your people when He was done in the Middle East.

DL, I don't expect you to capitalize the Hs but I hope you can appreciate why I do. In fact, I think it is very appropriate for us to do what we currently do. There is no reason for you to capitalize the pronouns that I can see. You should captilize proper names like "Jesus" "Mohammed" "Ghandi" etc. but not the pronouns. And let me also say that I think this is a way for some Xians to "impose" their view on the rest of the people by saying *everyone* should capitalize the pronouns. I strongly disagree with that position.

Lucuna, I agree re: darkGarden......It is like the light has come on.... ))there are many on this board....that are awesome. After a long day it is wonderful coming here.....to be stimulated.

"whenever I find myself on the side of the majority, I pause and reflect. " Mark Twain

quote:

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reitsma, you seem to fall somewhere between what I'm about to say and Universalism.

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if that's the case, i wouldn't mind falling around here:

bugs-*ME*--------------------------------------------------------------U'lism




i would ask what it was in my statement that 'puts' me there? Was it simply the fact that i "left the door open" to those who have never heard God's word, where as you shut it completely?

all i was trying to communicate was that it was an area i was not knowledgable enough in, so couldn't make a call myself - i figure i'll leave this one to God.

But, if you're starting it, can i bring this passage to you, buddy?

quote:

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As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
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John 12:47-48 (niv)

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Jesus clearly passes judgement on those who have heard his message (woo! right on par with my last post! ), and he seems to put all these people in a group, leaving behind all the others. Could there be a possibility that some other basis of judgement applies to these folk? Throughout John, Jesus implies (feel free to dispute this, as it is an interpretation) that by judging who He is, we are then passing judgement on ourselves. As such, where do those who have never passed a judgement stand?

Heh, to use your Israelite analogy - what about all those other folk in the world who were never even bitten by the snake?

Again, i'm not trying to disprove you - i have not yet come to any conclusion concerning this issue, and as much as i respect your beliefs, and share them in almost every aspect, i'm not going to just accept it, am i?
Just out of curiosity - how firmly do you stand by your argument? Is this an area you would stand by, and defend to the grave, or one that you've investigated, made a decision, but could be convinced either way?

I suspect (and this is coming from a very cynical viewpoint) that the reason why those who don't hear the Word are condemned along with those who hear but don't believe, is that logically, it would follow that it might be best if all those of faith kept it to themselves, rather than risk torching thousands (millions, billions) of souls who otherwise might have a chance.

If that were the case, it seems to me that keeping quiet about it would then be the Christian thing to do...

[Edit: Neat Easter sig, Reitsma! Nice eggs!]

[This message has been edited by Wangenstein (edited 04-17-2003).]

cheers wang.

doesn't really do a great job of showing what easter means to me, but i still like it.

Bugs, please don't bring up Mormonism...my people really don't like that religion...it divides my people up into 'good' and 'evil'...and I largely suspect (if you have read the book of the Mormon, as I have), that you probably have massive problems with that...or maybe not...what do you think of that religion?

A large portion of my family (on my mothers side) is mormon...

I don't particularly like or hold anything in that regards of the religion.

quote:

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bugs:
but I hope you can appreciate why I do

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Nope. doesn't make sense to me. I understand that you feel you should, and so you do, and that's fine with me of course. Just seems silly =)

I know next to nothing about mormonism. what little I do know leaves me with an impression of mormons as a rather odd bunch...



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 04-17-2003).]

That's interesting, as the girl I mentioned above was Mormon. Several times, I tried to explain to her that 'suggestion from the elders' + 'taught to always obey elders' = 'defacto order from the elders', but she insisted that they only made 'suggestions'. I also tried the 'people who aren't exposed to the Word get a free pass to Heaven (or one of its 'levels'?)' = 'keep your religion to yourself and everyone goes to Heaven', but that didn't wash, either... Here comes that bitterness again...