Preserved Topic: God of the bible

I have never read the bible, this is the first time and I am about half way through the second story, where Moses is about to read the ten commandments. I am very confused. Isn't God supposed to be all knowing and all seeing? Why is it then that God tells the Hebrews to put blood on their doors so he will know who they are? Why does he not know this? Also, when God tells then to sacrifice all their first born to him, what kind of a messed up God would want such a thing? And the way he is trying to prove that he is the true God, this alone makes me think that he is not the true God. Also, when God is leading them out of Egypt, they follow a cloud by day, and a burning light in the sky by night....Humm..sort of sounds like a UFO. I think all you Christians are being misled. I think this is some sort of evil creature that wants to control people, so he claims to be the true God, but in reality, the true creator of all things, the all seeing/knowing God has been silent for all of eternity. What does he/she have to prove to us?

Anyway, what I am asking basically, is how does the definition of God, an all powerful, all seeing being; compare with the God in the bible? What makes you think the Christian God is really a God at all?

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

The blood was a sacrifice not to tell God who were israelites, but who WANTED to be saved. God saved anyone who put lamb's blood over their door and smote the first-born of those who did not. This was merely a sign of faith and not any kind of lacking on God's part.

I cannot completely answer you why God killed all of the first-born. God said that pharoah would choose the next plague. The Pharoah had free will, and said that he would kill all of the Hebrew first-born. Therefore, Pharoah brought it upon his people himself. The Crappy part is with an omnicient deity, God knew what Pharoah was going to choose before he chose it. I would almost call this entrapment, so I can't really explain it.

Only a human would create a deity so insecure that he felt the need to prove his power to mortals. In this sense, we see that God's motives are no more complex than the base motives of the Greek and Roman deities. It's a very compelling arguement for not believing.

An omnipotent deity can produce any kind or signal he wishes. If he wants the Israelites to follow a cloud by day and a burning light at night, that's his perogative and falls well within the rhealm of his abilities according to the faith.

Answering your last question, I believe that the Christian God is entirely a human fabrication as has been every other deity in the history of man.

GN, before you get much further along in Genesis, any chance of starting with one of the gospels? Preferably John? It's much closer in time, the foundation of Christianity, and more culturally targeted to the Western mindset.

. . : slicePuzzle

quote:

---

Answering your last question, I believe that the Christian God is entirely a human fabrication as has been every other deity in the history of man.

---

Yup.

Poseidon and Loki are as real to me as is the 'God' of the bible.

=)

That comment had to put a smile on your face a mile wide!

warm & fuzzy

i was kind of thinking the same as bugs with where you're reading, keep in mind that the bible all ties together and a lot of what happens in the old testament is historical and sets up christ's coming in the new testament. you might also get more than two chapters in before judging the entire christian faith

btw, props to you for taking the initiative to actually read the bible. i think its something everyone should do if simply from a historical/cultural/literary perspective regardless of their beliefs.


KAIROSinteractive

Fig - Yea, I'm about to have a kid, and I want to fully understand the basis for the Christian methology before trying to explain it to him.

Bugs - Some other people have recommended to me to start with the gospels, but I figured I would start at the beginning.

DL + Seneca - I totally disagree. I think that all God's are real, I just think that they are not God's as we currently percieve them. I think they are real beings, sort of like aliens, or perhaps humans who achieved natural powers. There are supposedly people who live in caves all over the planet, who have been alive and seperate from us for a long time. Perhaps they are some of the God's. I don't know.

Here is a link to some stuff on this. It's a pretty crazy read, but it's interesting.
Credo Mutwa


Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

quote:

---

I think they are real beings, sort of like aliens, or perhaps humans who achieved natural powers

---

hooo-boy.

'nuff said.

{{edit...oops....gotta spell those little words right }}

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 02-14-2003).]

hail mighty hooo-bot

Jason

First off all if you intent to read the bible as from start to end i think you are a hero, since it is hard to understand old fashioned language written by different people in different times and full off methaphors. If you encounter some living rules (and you will) do not forget that those rules are written in a totally different time with totally different problems. Last but not least the bible is not The Thruth. Only a picture of it seen through the eyes from it's writers.

Also you should know that the "old testament" is a book from three religions: Islam, Jewish, Christianity.
it is not equally important to the three religions thou. The Christianity thing only starts at the beginning of the new testament where the other religions go in a different way.

The biggest problem is the interpetation from the bible. Due too different intrepetations, christianity has a lot of different branches like catholic, reformed, greek othodox, koptic etc...And all these groups had wars among them over a lot of years and in different countries. Still the nothern-irish confict is based on differences between the catholic irish and the protestant english. For many years europe has burned through all this.

If you really want to understand christianity you have to read more than only the bible.
You have to read about the templeknights, crusades, the history from europe/isreal/middle-east etc. etc.

If don't understand it don't blame yourself, most people don't. Also you could talk to both a priest and a reverend.

Hereby i want to wish you goodluck both with the bible and with your kid.

Sorry that i could not answer your questions and this lenghty post, but i figured you had to know what you are up to.

<edit > typo's
"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

[This message has been edited by Rinswind 2th (edited 02-14-2003).]

FYI: A "priest" and a "reverend" in Christian denominations refer to exactly the same office. Christian denominations call their clergy by a variety of names, including "pastor", "rector", and "minister"... depends on who you're a part of...

GN - if you're interested in learing about the Biblical basis for the modern Christian faith, read the New Testament, that's what modern Christianity is based on.
The Old Testament is a conglomeration of moral stories and myths that were used in ancient Judea, and are the roots of, as has been said, all three major montheistic religions, and has very little to do with modern Christianity in it's current form.

Christianity has been torn between it's pure spirituality, and the politics of any given time. That's one of the reasons why the US was founded, so that church and state could be separate... (not that it works really well...) It's hard to understand the history of Christianity without also understanding the history of western European civilization as well, since Christianity has played a very large part in that history.

You've taken on a momentous task, to read the Bible from cover to cover. Some of the stories in the Old Testament are actually pretty good reads... Some of them are not. There's a lot of euphamism in the Bible, and a lot of subjective interpretation. Reading it, while certainly worhtwhile as an intellectual pursuit, will probably not help you to "understand" Christianity.
If you are interested in understanding Christianity, my suggestion is to find a denomination which appeals to you, and start attending church each week. Get yourself involved in the sunday school program and really apply yourself to the understanding of it. The best way to understand a religion is to become a part of it. Religion is highly subjective and intensely personal.
As for educating your child, just make sure the kid has enough opportunities to educate him/herself as s/he grows, and make sure you and your spouse keep your minds open to whatever your child wants to do with his/her spiritual life, provided it's not harmful to themselves or others. We are responsible for the upbringing of our children, but ultimately, our children will become individuals with the ability to form their own opinions and ideas regarding the universe. The sum of our responsibility to them then is to provide them proper access to the resources they will require to make those decisions in an informed and intelligent manner... Good luck! You're braver than I am to bring a kid into the world as it is today...

Bodhi - Cell 617

Though I doubt I will actually become a member of any church, I thank you for your suggestions. I am more into a wide range of things, and mainly into my own spirituality, more so than any one religion. I just figured since my child will be growing up in a predominate Christian society, that I should have a good understanding of where those sociatal morals come from. I think I will be more into teaching my child the connectedness of everything, and how all life is made of the same things, and how we are all connected. I don't really know of any religions that practice this, though they all seem to preach it.

As far as the God of the Old Testiment not being the true God, I am pretty convinced this is correct. Then again, I don't even know if there is really a God the creator, so perhaps you would say the God of the Old Testiment is the true God: God the rule maker. I sort of think there is perhaps a God of the universe, like we have a President. But perhaps beyond him/her/whatever, they is a God the creator. I think they are two seperate things.



Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

Then I would simply teach your child that a "creative force" exists in the world, and that many people believe it manifests itself in many different ways. Perhaps you have a relative who is Christian, and would be willing to introduce your child to Christianity for you, if you aren't interested in it yourself...

The fact that the majority of Western countries are Christian probably means that your child will have optimum exposure from outside the home, and you maybe don't need to try so hard to teach it all yourself...



Bodhi - Cell 617

GN - I think you're horrifically overthinking all of this.

=)

You seem to be confusing yourself worse by trying all these odd justifications and explanations...

Just an observation.

Reading the bible with such a huge bias is not going to gain you a whole lot but I would still recommend reading the Gospel of John if you want to understand the core of Christianity. The Old Testament provides very foundational concepts but at least as you read through John you would be asking us questions about those foundations. I really think this would be a more fruitful place for you to begin.

If you continue from cover to cover, then I and I'm sure others will be more than happy to explain things as we understand them. Several of us here have asked the questions you are asking and can offer insights.

But here is just one example of why you're going to get confused if you do so. There is a historical section in the first half of the OT that coincides with the prophetical portion in the last half. If you don't realize the timeline of when the prophets were living in the historical section, then it's very confusing and you just miss out on a lot.

There are actually programs designed for reading through the Bible in one year. I actually taught a class like that once where we went through the whole thing and had outlines of every chapter and how they related to other books and history and such. If you're interested in this sort of thing, I can look into what's available online.

. . : slicePuzzle

"And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, one girl sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

I see Christianity (and most religion in general, in fact) a lot like the way I see the United States. Both were founded on some of the greatest principles in the world (being nice to people for a change; all men are created equal, etc.) and in their idealized forms are pretty darn amazing. Unfortunately, once actual people start getting involved, it tends to head downhill pretty fast (putting heretics to the sword; all men are created equal... except for you, and you, and those people over there...).

It's not to say that either is irredeemable, it's just makes me sad sometimes to see them not living up to their potential...



Odd behavior; even temperament...

Wang: That's not actually from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy'. Right series, wrong book. It's a quote from 'So Long and Thanks For All The Fish'

Hah.

Yes....People are great things in theory.

In practice, they are altogether different

quote:

---

Wang: That's not actually from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy'. Right series, wrong book. It's a quote from 'So Long and Thanks For All The Fish'

---

Actually, Skaarjj, it's a quote from the BBC Hitchhiker's radio series (at least, that's where I was pulling it from, having listened to it since I was about eight years old). Technically, though, I suppose you are correct, in your own way...

In theory, people are very *not* so nice things.

That is why the cross even came into the matter in the first place.

After the cross, people no longer need be slaves to the not so niceness, but there is nothing forcing that outcome and that is why you get the litany Wangers mentions... (putting heretics to the sword; all men are created equal... except for you, and you, and those people over there...). etc.

Whatever happened to faith. You don't need to hold it up to the light to examine it just believe.

and this:

quote:

---

There are supposedly people who live in caves all over the planet, who have been alive and seperate from us for a long time. Perhaps they are some of the God's.

---

Cooooooo like the Ascended Masters who occupy a giant temple under the Himalyas?

[edit: I'd really like to get into GN's head for day (chisel or can opener?) but I will settle for a deeper explanation of the above - pos. in a separate thread to stop this one spinning out of control]

It still all leaves the Buddhists out in the cold

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Emps, what if your faith hinges upon a historical event? The accuracy of that event can be bolstered or diminished by physical investigations to a certain degree.

For GN regarding some of your original questions: It seems to me that you have misread some of the story. St. Seneca helped clear some of that up. It sounded like you were asking why God had the Hebrews sacrifice their firt-born?!? That's not what happened, please read that part again.

Abraham was the only person I'm aware of that was asked to sacrifice his son by God. But the story clearly shows how God never intended for that to be carried through. There was one other case where Jephthah sacrificed his daughter to God but that was *not* requested by God. You'll find that in Judges.

The biggest mistake people make is to read the OT and force a modern mindset onto it and thereby occlude it's original meaning. You absolutely must have a better understanding of what the text meant to the original authors and readers to properly understand it. This goes for any work of antiquity but so many people seem to gloss right over this most important method.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-15-2003).]

Yea, your right Bug's. I think I was misinterpreting it. When he says sacrifice them to me, he meant something different, I think he meant something along the lines of offer your first born to me out of respect, or to work for him, something like that.

Emp's - If you were in my head, I don't think you would be typing here, but you would be in a hospital staring up at the roof, saying over and over...'what do you want with me?'

Thanks for all the good advice everyone.

I think I will start with the New Testament, I finished the first 3 books of the old testament, and it's time to move on.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

GN, if you have any questions, please feel free to post here or email me.

And, yes, first born belonged to God out of respect. In fact, there was an offering you could perform in the temple in order to buy them back, so to speak. Mary and Joseph actually did this with Jesus as you will see depending on what Gospel you take on.

Thanks Bug's, I will keep that in mind.

I am also reading a really good book at the same time, called Spiritwalker by Hank Wesselman, it's really interesting. I suggest it for anyone interested in spirituality.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

quote:

---

The blood was a sacrifice not to tell God who were israelites, but who WANTED to be saved. God saved anyone who put lamb's blood over their door and smote the first-born of those who did not. This was merely a sign of faith and not any kind of lacking on God's part.

---

ok question....now if god is so perfect, why is that lambs blood is so necessary? he can hear all of us right? so we can just tell him we wanna be saved, right? through prayer and faith, just as a good book says.

That's the way it works *now*. Before Christ's ultimate sacrifice, things were done differently.

but god is suppose to be perfect...cant he make a perfect law from the beggining?

what was he thinking before?

Ruski, we are the ones that have a problem with perfection. When we sin, we separate ourselves from God. *All* of us sin, not one of us is perfect. A really good working definition of sin is "anything that hurts others, hurts yourself, or hurts God".

All of the Law that was given to Moses in the OT was an attempt by God to begin a process that would allow us to come back into a perfect relationship with Him. The Law showed us that we cannot live a perfect life even when we try. Sure some people lead very good lives and help lots of others but nobody gets through life without messing up sometimes. Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Bill C*****n have all fallen short of perfection. Therefore someone has to "make up for" or "pay the price for" our shortcomings.

Christ dealt with the "paying the price for our sins" part. So by accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we can now be reconciled to God and not worry about our shortcomings because God sees Christ's perfection instead of our sins. That frees us up to do good works and even more good works because we are no longer slaves to our sinful natures. This is why Christ is *central* and *necessary* to get back to God.

What about in the tower of Babel story, where God sees what great things human can achive, and he decides to split them up and confuse their languages so they do not achive greatness and become like God?

Why would God not want us to be as powerful as possible, why would he try and restrict us and our learnings?

This also goes along with my belief that the God of the bible is not the all seeing, all knowing God.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

Thats what I am trying to understand...God is suppose to be perfect but he is not! according to bible....

its even says in Genesis that he admited his biggest mistake for making a mankind....another wierd thing I see, him changing the laws...the sin was recognized right at the beggining with adam and eve, he could have made this laws as we have today from the begging....but he had another laws why is that he changed everything?

Perfection doesnt make mistakes

Damn double post

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 02-24-2003).]

imo, logic is not necessarily appropriate here...

there are several theories about god:
- he is beyond our understanding,
-- though far be it from me to say he could not manifest as a human, if he so desired.
-- he built us perfect.. in our imperfections.

- he is a child, learning as he goes along.

- some see him as our father, but what child understands the parent?
-- until the child also becomes a parent...

- he gave us free will -
-- though some will argue that it's all fate.

-- he created us in order to see himself.

those are some of the theories i've heard.

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 02-25-2003).]

with the tower of babel it wasn't what the people were trying to achieve, its that they were worshipping their own achievements and accomplishments rather than God.

ruski, you lost me. care to explain a bit more, along with what verses in genesis you're pulling that from? thanks.

chris

Ok look I dont remeber the verse cause got no bible right now ,but its after what adam and eve had done and when they were banished, it said that god felt sorry for creating a mankind......supposedly made a mistake........another thing I find confusing is that god of bible is kinda bypolar or something.....in old testement he is basicly like "you are my bitches and you do what I tell you to do" also the laws of old testement were imperfect...as an exemple "treat your enemy the way he treats you" and "love your neighbor, hate your enemy" something like that...its somewhere in Marks chapters where Jesus was changing the laws they mentioned old laws...basicly making them more meaningfull.

and when Jesus comes the god appears to be diffrent ! he is all loving and so on..bla bla
and basicly Jesus corrects all the laws and stuff....so my question is why couldnt the god made this laws right from beggining? why he changed everything all of sudden...what was he thinking before?


and velvetrose just lke you said those are just theories they dont explain anything....just possibilities

quote:

---

And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the earth. - Genesis 11.

---

Where does it say anything about them worshiping thier achievements? It just says that the humans were to good, and God did not want them to achieve their full potential.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 02-27-2003).]

You got it gilbert! thast exactly what I want to understand...






[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 02-27-2003).]

quote:

---

"Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

---

actually this could be interpreted that knowing whatever they proposed to do would now be possible for them.. he then made the decision to separate them that they might advance on many levels in different places, rather than the interpretation that he was refusing to allow them to achieve full potential.

[edit- fix wording


[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 02-28-2003).]

thats very helpful.........

Uh, that's called 'posting an opinion' Ruski.

Does her post have to somehow be helpful to you??

Take a look at your own track record before criticising other people's helpfulness ruski...

[edit- rereading this thread, i see it is gilbert who posted the original question and my answers are mainly directed at him and his wanting to understand christian thinking.. reworking my response, back in a sec

back ...
gilbert - i posted above some of the different viewpoints on the naure of god.. the people who hold those different opinions will have different views on how different portions of the bible will be translated.

i applaud your reading the bible in order to understand for yourself. just as no one apologizes for their views on god, neither will you once you have read the bible. in fact ( ), once you have finished, you may find yourself participating in the age old tradition of debating just what different bible passages mean!

Ruski... when you ask a question about the bible or god, you are going to get opinions! opinions on why he did what he did, how he did what he did and what the bible means and how it should be interpreted..

be aware that the bible is The Book of 3 major religions:
one religion holds to the bible as written and have their thoughts on it's meaning in separate texts - texts which they do not consider part of the bible itself.

a second religion has renamed the bible as "The Old Testament" and put together a new book (consisting of records, letters, other stuff) they call the "New Testament." they consider both books as the Bible.

the third religion retains the bible, but call it the "Old Book" and they have a second book written by one of their prophets, called the "Koran." they follow their second book more religiously as they view the old book as valid, but outdated.

the people here who respond to your questions are sharing their honest opinions with you - just as any religious would... none seek to confuse or mislead you, but they share their beliefs as (according to how) they understand why he did what he did and what they understand to be the meaning/translation of what is written in the bible.

[edit - clarification]
[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-01-2003).]

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-01-2003).]

in answer to the original question

quote:

---

Anyway, what I am asking basically, is how does the definition of God, an all powerful, all seeing being; compare with the God in the bible? What makes you think the Christian God is really a God at all?

---

i offer the following link for your perusal

http://www.diakrisis.org/known_by_God.htm

Yo DL and velvetros dont get me wrong and please I didnt insult her or anything...that sentence was suppose to go to "god" as he divided us and supposedly made us speak diffrent languages....so sorry if you missunderstood me....but to me it seems it wasnt helpful at all

ohh and by the way!

quote:

---

Though there are many paths
At the foot of the mountain
All those who reach the top
See the same moon.

---

hehe I guess this should relieve many people

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-02-2003).]

if you're going to quote scripture you really need to not just post selected parts of it, quite a good way to create your own interpretations by taking things out of context. we're in genesis 11 for those playing along at home:

quote:

---

1 Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

---

and from 'John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible', the clearest explanation i found:

quote:

---

Some think they intended hereby to secure themselves against the waters of another flood, but if they had, they would have chosen to build upon a mountain rather than upon a plain. But two things it seems they aimed at in building.

1. To make them a name: they would do something to be talked of by posterity. But they could not gain this point; for we do not find in any history the name of so much as one of these Babel - builders. Philo Judeus saith they engraved every one his name upon a brick; yet neither did that serve their purpose.
2. They did it to prevent their dispersion; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth - It was done (saith Josephus) in disobedience to that command, Genesis 9:1, replenish the earth. God orders them to scatter. No, say they, we will live and die together. In order hereunto they engage themselves and one another in this vast undertaking. That they might unite in one glorious empire, they resolve to build this city and tower, to be the metropolis of their kingdom, and the center of their unity.

---

chris

[This message has been edited by Fig (edited 03-03-2003).]

Irregardless of how it is explained, it is still cruel. Not an act of an all-powerful, all-knowing being, that is outside of the Timestream...or a just being, at that. The people were supposed to scatter? Well, with a centralized place (and the certainty that they could accomplish everything they desired), populating the Earth would have been easy. But that's not my Plan, says God...sounds like Mr. Bush, if you ask me...and destroys their land and culture, and scatters them...ok...

And as far as I know, Archeologists have found no evidence of Babbel. I tend to think that this is a fairy tale, a way of explaining why there are so many languages.


WebShaman

oh please.. do not put bush and god in the same sentence..
well, maybe... now that you did, it makes me wonder if bush does see himself in that role

not meaning to pick on WS, but i've noticed something similar to his response in a lot of discussions i've had about the bible and christianity:

1. someone makes a comment saying how something was done for no reason or how God did something that was "fill-in-term-of-choice-here".
2. an explanation, one that may not necessarily be agreed with from an individual's point of view but one that has some basis (i.e. God said not to do "x" and they did it anyway) is given.
3. the response of "well, i still don't agree with that happening" results.

in other words, ok, according to what we know there may be some basis (at least in context, throwing whatever you may believe of the book's truth out the window for the moment), but i still don't like it. um, that's nice. i don't agree with a lot of what my parents did, but they still did it. not liking something doesn't mean it didn't/couldn't happen. i'm not offering this little blurb of scripture or anything else as "proof" of God, just observing a pattern i've seen.

whatever the case, i came to to the realization a while back that while i'm a fairly intelligent guy, i doubt i'm at the level that an omnipotent creator would be. i have lots of ideas on the way the world should work and how i would've done things, but that's completely irrelevant to the way things happen now and have happened in the past. i have things aside from scripture that are my basis for believing God is real and the true God, and while scripture supports what i believe there are things i've read that i find odd, weird, or straight up doubt. but my not agreeing with something doesn't make it not true.

chris

Well its your oppinion! live with it

Those are WS oppinions he will live with them!

now the only thing bothers me alot about christianity is that I am really getting tired of hearing how peopel will go to hell bla bla bla, and that I am possesed by the devil bla bla...those things make me simply want to stay away from religeons...it seems they are scaring people to attract the worshipers...[IMHO]...I really dont know...but thats the way it seems

Ruski: I would really like to know who told you, you were possesed by the devil, and meant it in a serious sense, that seems quite absurd. Also, just a thought, I have noticed that your posts come off condescending, like you only have criticism for other people. I don't see how you can be in a position to give advise to everyone else, when you seem so closed minded, and truly, It doesn't seem as if you have read the bible [recently?], so I come to wonder if you even know what you are talking about. Just an observation.

As for speaking of hell, going to hell is a risk you take by embracing a religion. You see, if you commit yourself to a religion, it is believed that you will follow the rules layed down for you. In return you would be rewared with salvation (I am speaking from a Christian point of view here). Salvation, is somthing that you would strive to achieve, and seek out. Hell is the opposite, when you have somthing so awesome as salvation, you have to have a place to put people, that do not meet requirements. In my personal opinion hell doesn't exist, but if you look into the Catholic faith, they have a place called Limbo, or Purgatory. It serves as a waiting place, or a proving grounds, you will stay there for all eternity, or until you have proven yourself worthy to enter the kingdom of God (according to the bible). So, more or less wrapping this up... for all the good places you have in the world, it seems that there would be an opposite. "for every black there is a white" so to speak.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

Hey welcome to asylum...and please get to know people before you judge them...since you are new here ! welcome anyway

Yes man I am Catholic and yes I do read bible pretty much everyday...I moved to Puerto Rico and I am in christian school...these people are pretty much against everything since I have been raised in openminded community and I respect and even like alot of other beliefes like buddism, and evolution and so on. I started to have doubts about my religeon, so I questioned several teachers...my english teacher said that satan is confusing me and so on...its seems to be very repetitive and I am, getting tired of it....its just seems I cannt reason with people who are simply fanatics....anything that doesnt match with their beliefe seems evil to them...such as zodiac stuff.......well keep in mind I am calm


[edit]I agree with you about that yin and yan stuff ...pretty much like it myself, but christians say its against their beliefes...since god is supposed to be perfectly good and satan perfectly evil[/edit]

Though there are many path
to the mountain.
Those who reach the top
see the same moon.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-05-2003).]

Fig - I understand your point of view there, and trust me - there are as plenty similarly of frustrating things from this side of the fence as well

One issue I have -

quote:

---

that while i'm a fairly intelligent guy, i doubt i'm at the level that an omnipotent creator would be

---

Well sure. But the pitfall of that line is that anything can be chalked up as "oh, that's just how god works - don't question it".

And while I'm not saying that's how I see you acting, I do far too often see/hear that used to fill in the blanks.

{{edit - Ruski: one very important thing fo you to understand is that you can't simply lump anyone christian together into one group and postulate on what you deem to be their beliefs.

For starters, there are far too many sects of christianity to do that, and there is a big divide between the generic lip-service-christian sheep and the more intellectual breed that you tend to find (such as Bugimus and Fig).



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-05-2003).]

I wish I met them in real life

Ruski, I know exactly the kind of people you are dealing with. I've met them too and I've had disagreements with them on many occasion. Now, as Christians, I still consider them brothers and sisters but that doesn't mean we all agree on everything. The family of God is made up of people just like you and me and none of us are perfect and there are always going to be differences of interpretation on different issues.

Fig

quote:

---

not meaning to pick on WS, but i've noticed something similar to his response in a lot of discussions i've had about the bible and christianity:

1. someone makes a comment saying how something was done for no reason or how God did something that was "fill-in-term-of-choice-here".
2. an explanation, one that may not necessarily be agreed with from an individual's point of view but one that has some basis (i.e. God said not to do "x" and they did it anyway) is given.
3. the response of "well, i still don't agree with that happening" results.

in other words, ok, according to what we know there may be some basis (at least in context, throwing whatever you may believe of the book's truth out the window for the moment), but i still don't like it. um, that's nice. i don't agree with a lot of what my parents did, but they still did it. not liking something doesn't mean it didn't/couldn't happen. i'm not offering this little blurb of scripture or anything else as "proof" of God, just observing a pattern i've seen

-- Fig

---

Beliefs differ...I respect your belief, so give a little back. When I post my opinion, it is exactly that, an opinion. So too, are your posts. While we may agree, or disagree, that, in and of itself, is irrelevant. It is mainly of how one chooses to do this.

But I believe that the topic was 'God of the Bible'...and my comment was based on that. In the Old testament, God demonstrates some pretty irky behavior, for such a supreme being (my opinion). Later (New Testament), it is portaited a bit more 'Godly'.

That you believe in God is your own personal choice. I'm sure you have your reasons, and I'm sure they are good ones. But be aware, that my beliefs are also so. Somehow, I get the impression that you may feel 'under attack' by my opinions...if so, please relax...I certainly am not interested in attacking you, and in no way, shape, or form, intended to. I believe there is more than enough room, for both beliefs to co-exist.

sorry, WS, re-reading my post it came off as more confrontational/offended than i intended. quite the contrary, you're a knowledgable guy and i very much respect your opinions and beliefs on things, and i definitely enjoy hearing them as they often make me consider aspects i've never thought about before. definitely room for more than one opinion, i'm glad yours is here as well as others.

DL, totally agreed. i think the point that people stop doubting and start blindly accepting, no matter what their beliefs, is the point you really need to step back and evaluate what you mean to "believe" something.

chris

Thanks velvetrose and Fig for that info, especially that translation of what the script is about.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

no problem GN. glad i could add something you found useful.
an additional note: not only is the translation sometimes confusing, but the original text is sometimes a puzzle since it was written with no punctuation or spacing.. as an example, thelordisnowhere could be interpreted two ways: the lord is now here or the lord is no where. translators had to deal with dual possibilities on many occasions <- discovered that aspect while watching a documentary on the dead sea scrolls

That's pretty interesting, thelordisnowhere.

Maybe it's really all piglatin... thel ord isn owh ere.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

LOL, nah, though the biblical scholars (commissioned by King James), may have felt that way as they translated from the greek into english

interesting stuff vevletrose. and glad to help GN

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Hi. Just read thru responses. And my point of view is
we should just learn to get along. All mainstream religions are all in harmony with each other. Respecting ones beliefs is being a true Christian

I for one am a Catholic who is so in love with the my faith and all its treasures. I am not forced to believe
in it . Every day I am in awe of the wonders of truth
and its mystical presence in my life.

Jade

Welcome to the Asylum, Jade

Make sure to read the :FAQ:

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-10-2003).]

You know Catholics are not like bible toting evangelical protestants, but we are Christinas too. We don't go around quoting Scripture. While the bible is sacred scripture to us, its not all there is for us in terms of our faith. God of the Bible in OT/NT to me is a divine presence written by storytellers to let us know who God was in their time. And what his actions were in that we could know him. And to me, whats more important the story itself or the message its trying to convey.

Jade

Umm.... ok. But I'm not sure who you were just responding to there.

You might find this thread interesting http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000736.html

I summed up the differences in a very short sentence there and I would love to know whether or not you agree as a Roman Catholic.

ohh I just got a random question. why nakedness is bad? acording to bible?

To tell you the truth, looks like some repsondees are schooled by anti-Catholic propaganda. (Most anti-Cathoics are Fundamental Baptist.) I read what I usually hear from people who are ignorant of what Catholicism really is. If you really want to know what CC is about, start out by reading the history of Christianity or the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That way all would be better informed on what the Catholic faith is. We are not a bible church. In that, we don't depend on the bible as the sole basis for our faith (Sola Scriptura). There are so many spiritual externals that make up the Body of Christ, that even though if I lived to be 500 yrs old I still wouldn't grasp the total beauty of the treasures of the faith. To me its like you find this key that opens up a treasure and in it you find the most beautiful gems and each gem is more awesome than the last and the greatest part of it is that the treasure box never empties.
I know I am getting carried away. But thats how I see my quest for holiness.
(So sorry I was on the other chat room and was writing in reference to it) Jade.

interesting...not sure if i'm schooled by anti-catholic propaganda or not i'm all about learning to get along btw, but for the most part other churches aren't the ones claiming that only they are "right", that would be the catholic church's job

i could personally give a flip what church or denomination you profess if you "get it". that is, if you understand and practice a lifestyle that understands christ as your personal savior. many in any number or churches never seem to grasp that, but i've found the catholic church seems to make it easier to get by and feel like you're ok. go to church every sunday, confession occasionally, get baptized and confirmed and heaven, here i come. is that what's it all actually about? no, and i'm not saying it is in the least. problem is that the a large percentage of the general catholic populace doesn't realize that. there absolutely are deep meanings and awesome symbolism in the catholic church, but that's been lost and reduced to a series of repetitive events for most people, and that's really unfortunate.

i have mixed feelings on the issue of sola scriptura, there's definitely value in tradition but the problem arrives when the tradition supercedes what it represented in the first place. its the additional required elements and misconceptions that contradict the bible that i have more of a problem with. the apostles and saints weren't superheroes; they were ordinary people who screwed up (often in fact), it was God working thru them that made them so amazing but that's lost for sight of the person. peter's own stories involved hundreds and even thousands at times that "believed and were saved", they weren't required to take six weeks of classes and participate in a ceremony to see if the church thought they were worthy of heaven. i don't consider being saved by grace debatable if you're someone considering themselves christian of any flavor.

the biggest thing i notice in catholic vs protestant churches is the lack of transformation. i'm sure events do occur, but i know a number of people personally who've had their lives dramatically changed after finding christ, been set free from addictions, healed, etc. in just the church i attend, not to mention countless stories i've heard from others. that's the kind of God i want to and do serve, an active working God; otherwise i don't really see the point.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Lets say,

Its seems some Christians want to dictate the way God should come to them, rather than accept the way he chooses to come to them.
Christianity is total submission. Did you shop around for a religion that fits your lifestyle & comfort. One that says" I can commit adultry tomorrow since I am already saved". Who wouldn't want to be in a sect like that. How easy.
Maybe you have a problem with an authoritive church. Even the US Goverment has laws that govern us and keeps us in order or we would have total chaos. Some Catholics do leave the Church. Its too hard for them to stay Catholic. I agree. And its usually because they have sinned and become one with the sin. Since they feel outside the church, they rebel against it to make them feel ok with what ever sin they might have
committed. The join another church and usually become very vocal anti-catholic.

Jade

I have never been a member of the Roman Catholic church. I have been a follower of Christ since I was 10 years old though.

I believe the Bible should be adhered to as closely as possible when speaking about authority. It is only through a clear and disciplined approach to studying the scripture that I believe we can speak for God.

I have some serious disagreements with Roman Catholic doctrine based on what I see in the Bible. I am not "anti-Catholic" in the sense that I am out to bash any Catholic I come across but I am interested in discussing certain problems I see with their approach to God.

Before you respond, I should point out that I've had many a discussion with Catholic friends of mine and I hold no ill will toward them or you for being Catholic. I am only interested in discussing these differences in hopes of furthering a respect for each side and hopefully bringing some ideas into play that some have never considered. I'll let the Holy Spirit do His job as He is much better at convicting the heart than I am

mhmm...interesting points jade. care to try another post, this time actually adressing some of the points i made (which you'll note actually reinforce that i believe much of their original intent within the catholic church) rather than bashing my presumed beliefs, background, and lifestyle? thanks.

bugs and i share pretty similar views btw, with a few minor exceptions.
chris


KAIROSinteractive

I was baptized a Roman Catholic when I was 3 months old. And have been affiliated with Ministry since I was a teenager many years ago . I am no theoloigan, but I read about my faith constantly. The Spirit draws me onward to search just like you. Protestantism & Catholicism have more in common that not. Its a shame that what divides us is how we interpret words that are suppose to make us one body, one spirit, one church.

Out
Jade

Jade.

Ok Chris I will quit bashing. Sorry. Give me a point in particular and I will respond on the subject. Where? Sacraments, Virgin Mary, Saints,
Intercession, Purgatory, Salvation, Born Again,
Infallibility of Pope, Papal Authority, Bible Alone?
etc,, I am open or discussion. Be ready to go where you haven't before.

I have a request for you. Why don't you make a good case for Papal Authority? I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about that. Perhaps another member here could benefit from such a discussion as she asked about differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

If you feel inclined to make a case for it, then please start a new thread on that topic and I'll be glad to join in.

And please don't asume too much about us here. What you said to Fig was very presumptuous and I seriously doubt he fits what you envisioned about him. Thanks in advance

I am not being personal. Just truthful. I presume nothing. If we are Christians (which some sect don't believe Catholics are) we are brothers & sisters in the divinity of Christ. Family. Right? Ok. Papal Authority. My favorite subject. It will have to be tomorrow. I need to get some zzzzz.

Jade.

I have a question about the Catholic Bible. If you aren't supposed to add/subrarct/change the Biblical text, then how come they add on the Apocrypha (I think, right?). I mean, I thought that those weren't actually books of the Bible, but kinda like commentary and theology.

Isn't this contradictary, though?

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 03-10-2003).]

*smacks jade with a frozen fish*

you presume nothing? i was raised catholic and did not leave the church because i "sinned and become one with the sin," nor because i rebeled "against it to make them {me} feel ok with what ever sin they might have committed". hello? you are being presumptuous, did you notice? whatever argument you present here, kindly remember that you are not the only catholic trained person on this forum.. think before you post, my dear. and as the saying goes, don't judge others, until you've walked a mile in their mocassins.

^^^^ very good advice, I must say.

I have a question, concerning the creation of Angels, and the war of the heavens (before the creation of Mankind). What exactly happened, and where is it explained? Do Angels have free will? And exactly what are Angels?


WebShaman

jade: As velvetrose has said you seem to be making some sweeping generalisations - I do love this though:

quote:

---

Some Catholics do leave the Church. Its too hard for them to stay Catholic. I agree. And its usually because they have sinned and become one with the sin. Since they feel outside the church, they rebel against it to make them feel ok with what ever sin they might have committed.

---

I come from a big, devout Irish Catholic family (there are still a couple who drive all over the area for the one Latin mass) and was baptised (in the diocese of Jerusalem no less) and confirmed. I suspect I stopped going to mass long before I got any decent sinning under my belt (or above) and it was more due to my concerns about the existence of a God, my dislike of organised religions (although I always thought the ceremonial aspects always had other churches beat), the corrpution of the Churches power over the centuries, etc.

and this:

quote:

---

And have been affiliated with Ministry since I was a teenager many years ago.

---

Well give my regards to Al Jourgensen

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I think most of you guys are pretty guilty of generalization on Catholics. Think what you want, but it all boils down to one thing. Protestants make religions. 25,000.00 new sects open up every day all claming to have revelations of true scripture. You
can't even agree on interpretion. I bet Martin Luther is turning in his grave. Total chaos. How tragic. The evil one just loves this.

i find it interesting that you're bouncing back and forth between "we all need to just get along" and "protestants are the ones making things up". notice a few things in the arguments i or anyone else have made, the main one being that no one's said a thing about you or what your personal faith may be, we've commented on things we've noticed about the catholic church in general and patterns and behaviors we've seen there (and led into chances for you to respond, such as my observations on the catholic church population in general missing the point). you, by contrast, decided that anyone who couldn't hack it in the catholic church probably did so because of our oneness with sin. talk about generalizations...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

~Bugs looks down the drain as far as he can see and waves to this thread as it descends into the abyss~

I would still love to participate in another thread making the case for Papal Authority but not if it's going to consist of arguments about how "you" Protestants mucked everything up with that schism thing. I don't consider myself a Protestant by the way so I didn't take that personally.

---Original thread question---

quote:

---

Anyway, what I am asking basically, is how does the definition of God, an all powerful, all seeing being; compare with the God in the bible? What makes you think the Christian God is really a God at all?

---

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

~watches thread and waves with bugs~

yeah, i actually don't consider myself to be protestant either, tho i'm not catholic so for some i guess that's the only alternative.

now that i think about it, 25,000 new christian sects a day sounds like a whole lot too. i'd be interested to know where that figure came from.

and look at GN, trying to bring it back on topic...sheesh...

chris




KAIROSinteractive

quote:

---

looks like some repsondees are schooled by anti-Catholic propaganda

---

And it looks like yours are derived from being spoon-fed pro-catholic propaganda your entire life.

You spoke of "going where you haven't before".

You should try it. =)

Rats! And I really wanted my questions answered...*sigh*

Oh well...bye-bye, thread...

*Watches it disappear down the drain*

ws and bugimus, i started a thread with your questions.

GN - christians, from what i have seen, accept the god of the bible as god on faith or as i learned in a song at a baptist summer school "cause the bible tells me so". (yes, i attended a baptist summer school, my mom thought i needed to expand my horizons )

Velvet Rose

Enlighten me on where in the bible it say the bible is the "pillar & foundation of truth." In the bible I am reading its says, the church is the pillar & foundation of truth and if there is a disagreement to consult the church. What church are they referring to? What is your belief on this?

and that verse would be..?

chris


KAIROSinteractive

You know it's funny. I'm reading through all of this and hearing the reasons I stopped being Catholic in the first place. It's the PRO-Catholic propaganda that turned me off to Catholicism. I was baptised and confirmed in the religion before reaching the age of reason (around 12 years old) and realizing that it doesn't matter which faith you follow as long as you do what every faith boils down to -> Be good to one another and you will be rewarded. This debate about who is right is really a debate about who has the best tasting Dogma. The core of most religions is the same. The rest is semantics and bureaucratic BS. ToMAYto OR ToMAHto... Does it really matter all that much?

GD, Yes it most certainly does matter. Fig and I would argue that you have just typed a subtley stated but hugely significant misconception with "Be good to one another and you will be rewarded". The very same scriptures that both Catholics and non-Catholics hold to be God's word states we are not justified by our works but rather our faith.

Now I agree with you when we descend into bickering about things that are not critical to salvation which is quite a lot of stuff. But we simply cannot yield on core issues of the faith.

jade, I would like to know chapter and verse for what you quoted too. I'm not familiar with which one you're referring to.

Here Paul is instructing Timothy about scripture's authority:

quote:

---

...and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
--2 Timothy 3: 15-17

---

quote:

---

Velvet Rose

Enlighten me on where in the bible it say the bible is the "pillar & foundation of truth." In the bible I am reading its says, the church is the pillar & foundation of truth and if there is a disagreement to consult the church. What church are they referring to? What is your belief on this?

---

rereading this thread, i don't find myself saying that the bible is the pillar & foundation of truth
where in the your bible (i assume you are referring to your "new testament") does it say that the church is the pillar & foundation of truth?

quote:

---

...and if there is a disagreement to consult the church.

---

uh, and what does the church use on which to base it's decisions? if not the bible or christian "new testament" then what? do men (of the church?) make it up based on their own opinions? or perhaps they make the decisions based on the theology left over from the Mythric Mysteries? (those guys who were the foundation of the roman church )

i realized i've asked several questions here, but perhaps you would rather answer them in the catholics and other christians thread, which is shorter than this one

{edit-fix spacing }

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-12-2003).]

VR
I know you didnt post that but since you go by "bible only".
I thought you would know.

Check Matthew 18:15-17 & 1 Tim 3:15 about which church they are referrring to since there must be thousands of churchs in the world today. I know some posters think we don't need to go to church and to just be good and avoid evil, so you would be enlighening them on this. Thanks.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, Bug's. The core of the christian faiths is believe in God and Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, the salvation that has been prepared for you and to follow the Ten Commandments. (To put it rather loosely) All of the rest of it is dogma that was added onto a good theological point of view. It turned the theology of christianity into a religion by trying to make it conform to what people wanted it to be rather than seeing that it already conformed to everyone the way it was. I guess where I was headed with my "Be good to each other..." statement is that that is the default if you follow your faith. Basically you can't follow your faith and not be good (or at least try to be good) to everyone else. The statement is still true it is just that the goodness is derived from your faith rather than something else.


GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

What about the commandment:

Honor the Lords day. The 7 th day.

Bugs

quote:

---

The very same scriptures that both Catholics and non-Catholics hold to be God's word states we are not justified by our works but rather our faith.

---

Um, what?

So basically, you can do all sorts of real good things, and if you are not sure that God exists, then you are screwed?

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

Yes. That can happen.

well then it sucks

It's moments like these that convince me our discussions are productive

After all this time of talking about what I believe to be true and what you both believe about things, it is now that I know you have heard and understood a very critical point.

The point is that the NT says a very specific thing about how to gain eternal life and it is not just "doing good works".

Ruski, yes, I know it is a hard teaching but that is what it says and the important thing is for you to know what it says and *then* decide how you want to proceed. You too, GN. I've said before that what is important for us in this forum is to *understand* one another. It's up to each of us to make up our own minds with the information that we all share.

jade:

quote:

---

VR
I know you didnt post that but since you go by "bible only".
I thought you would know.

---

where did i say i was bible only person?

bugimus:

quote:

---

Ruski: So basically, you can do all sorts of real good things, and if you are not sure that God exists, then you are screwed?

Bugimus: Yes. That can happen.

---

so what happens to the hindu, aetheists, gnostics, buddhists etc.? are you saying jesus didn't die for them too? they can go to hell and to hell with them?

velvetrose, it depends on who you ask. According to current Catholic dogma it *is* possible for a Hindu to get to heaven. Many Protestant churches also believe that to be possible. In fact, I believe there are a great number of Christians who really accept Universalism, i.e. that eventually all will be saved.

I cannot in good conscience take that position, however. I believe the New Testament states that those who have never heard about the salvation of Christ are lost. This is of course also the case with anyone who has heard the gospel and rejected it. This is why I believe getting the good news out there is so vitally important. It is why I take this so seriously.

[edit] I just read your words more carefully and I really need to say that I think you know very well that Christ died for *all* humankind. I know you are well versed in the Bible, certainly enough to know that. And please don't tell me that "to hell with them" was in any way meant to imply that I don't die at the thought of that horrible fate for anyone. One *must* be true to what they believe to be reality and if that is what I see written there then you had better believe I'm going to stick with it and *then* deal with the consequences. The goal is to find the truth and then work from there. I'm doing the best I know how and I hope you are doing the same. Part of that process for me is to extend my love and God's love to *all* brothers and sisters in this world, namely, every human being and that is why you are going to see me devoting much of my time and resources to reaching them. [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-13-2003).]

ok, i'll stop laughing and respond to your first point bugs..

"current catholic dogma"?? i heard that all would be saved as a child, but the next year, the nuns announced that was an error. only catholics would be saved. so which *man* made the decision to change catholic dogma.. again ? my reason for leaving the roman church.. so obviously imo, a religion of man, not god.

yes, i have a smattering of knowledge of the bible, but like yourself i appreciate a good discussion and questioning peoples thoughts and opinions to see if they are truly known or merely copy/paste from some sermon or book. i disagree with the proposition that only christians will get to heaven. in point of fact, i am not a christian, but a deist
*walks off giggling*

velvetrose, I'll have to check on this but I think it was Pope Pious IX

Deist eh? How very interesting, thanks for sharing that. I was pretty sure you didn't consider yourself a Xian but I would not have guessed deist. So are you kind of the First Cause winding up the clock of the universe and letting go type of deist? or some other variation I've not heard of? Just curious.

Actually, velvetrose made a very good point, indirectly, and one that has bothered me about most of the major religions - where are the words of the 'holy women'?

Though the Bible does mention women (and often, actually), there are no holy writs from women to be found!. Now, why is this? Is it because, at the time that most of the Major religions were founded, that women were very repressed? And why is Eve portraited in the Bible as the 'reason' for the seduction? Meaning, ok, the serpent really did the seduction of Eve, yes, but Eve went along, and convinced poor ol' dumb Adam, the good sot that he was, to eat the apple, as well...which really laid the 'fault' at the feet of women.

Throughout history, we see this mindset being repeated, based on what is in the Bible...and other Holy Works, as well. Now, if these works are really 'divinely inspired' by a higher being, then why all the hostility to women? I just don't buy that. That's a patriachal view, plain and simple. Before the Major religions, we see that women were much more respected...and even in positions of power, and influence. Since the 'birth' of Christianity, we see a great reduction of this, concerning women, and the empowering of men.

Now, wouldn't a Higher Being tend to treat both sexes as equal?

Talking about who does not reponds to post of supposedly I am guilt of.
What happened pillar & foundation of truth, etc.
No response????

In all 12 years in catholic school, the nuns & priest never told me that only catholics are going to heaven. All are welcome at the table of the father in heaven.

And who did God appoint judge and jury of who is saved and who isn't. Last I read Jesus Christ the King sits at the right hand of his father and he is the supreme judge. If he determines that someone who never read his (how to book)
can go in, their in. Its his perrogative. Not any one earthly beings. Yes!! Jesus rules.

In all my years in catholic schooling, no priest or nun or lay person every said only catholics go to heaven. That is not a catholic belief.
Another misconception about catholics.

They preach all are welcome at the fathers table. They cannont determine who is saved and who is not saved. Only Jesus Christ, who sits at the right hand of the father is sole judge and jury. And if Jesus determines & lets in a soul that even though this soul has never opened up the sacred (how too) book, they are in. Its his perrogative.
He is God.

velvetrose, a Catholic friend helped me track down the reference about "current Catholic dogma" on who gets in:

Here's what Pope Pius IX said in 1854:

quote:

---

...we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord.

---

...and later in 1863:

quote:

---

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

---

Jade, this is for you, please read this carefully, please! I don't appreciate spending lots of time typing and having people ignore it. It's extremely frustrating. You said above:

quote:

---

What happened pillar & foundation of truth, etc. No response????

---

I *did* respond!!!

I will repeat it here because you obviously missed it.

quote:

---

jade, I would like to know chapter and verse for what you quoted too. I'm not familiar with which one you're referring to.

Here Paul is instructing Timothy about scripture's authority:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
--2 Timothy 3: 15-17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

If you don't mind, I would appreciate a response to this, thank you.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-13-2003).]

there was a document from the pope a few years ago that was greatly misintepreted (supposedly) that talked about salvation and truths contained in other denominations and religions. the pope's clarifications said something to the effect of that other Christian churches contain "precious elements of salvation" and that "salvation is not denied to non-Christians." my views on this are more in line with what bugs had to say, but in the end its not really up to me.

jade, the church that christ refers to is the christian church that existed at that time, the gathering of believers that took place. peter may have been given some authority in that early church by christ, but repeated statements throughout scripture (many by jesus himself) reinforce that christ is the cornerstone of the church, its head, and the only foundation (1 Cor 3:11, Col 1:18, Matt 28:18). a statement i found in some reading on the subject was catholics using the term "One fold and one shepherd" in referring to the pope and the catholic church. jesus calls himself the shepherd and the one shepherd tending his father's flock in John 10. seems a bit contradictory to me.

one other fact i found that was interesting. peter never refers to himself as the pope, is referred to as the pope, or settles any matter by his position in the NT. he actually talks about how parts of paul's writings are hard to understand. i'd think that if peter were in charge of things he would've been doing a lot more writing and making decisions and have made his authority known, wouldn't you?

i'll leave it with this:

quote:

---

Now there arose a dispute among them, which of them was reputed to be the greatest. But he said to them, 'The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and they who exercise authority over them are called Benefactors. But not so with you. On the contrary, let him who is greatest among you become as the youngest, and him who is chief as the servant.' (Luke 22:24-26)

---

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Not to worry, Jesus Christ has come to save us all!!!

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

thanks bugs. the misconception on my part, stems directly from what i was taught as a child by a nun in sunday school. that information was known not only where i learned it, but also at the other church i attended after my family moved to a different neighborhool. it makes me wonder what other info passed down, by those who should know (nuns, priests), is also contradictory to church dogma.

jade:

quote:

---

What about the commandment:

Honor the Lords day. The 7 th day.

---

the 7th day is saturday.. why do catholics and most other christians celebrate on the 8th day-sunday?

There seems to be a bit of confusion about these days.

The "Lord's Day" is Sunday, the 1st day of the week. Christians usually attend church on this day because Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week. This is not a requirement but we do it because the earliest Xians did, at least that's why I do it. But our church has just begun Thursday night service for those who think attending church on Sunday is wang.

The 7th day is not called the Lord's day but rather the Sabbath. According to Jewish law and as spelled out in the 10 commandments, God's people were to keep the Sabbath holy. It was and still is to be a day of rest.

While I think it is an excellent tradition to maintain I do not think it is required of gentile christians to strictly abstain from work on the Sabbath.

I must say, we haven't had any threads on religion like these for awhile...

Great stuff everyone! Keep it up!!

*goes back to reading*

In ref to the Lords Day.

Wasn't it when Constantine was in power and since he did a a lot for the Christians in the way on honoring Christ call it "Sun" day, since he believed
it was the God of the Christians that helped him win a battle.

He was a pagan b-4. But he had that vision of the Cross in the sky with the sun(?) I believe and it was in the form of a cross and he had that cross put on all his armies sheilds. He won the battle he felt with the God of the Christians.

And for that reason he converted to Christianity, And this being the reasson why most all Christians worship on Sunday as of today.

i believe the 7th day adventists still worship on saturday.. not sure which others..