Preserved Topic: problem with god (Page 4 of 4)

And we mustn't forget Shiii and Rick either.

Yeah yeah, ok...point was that we don't circel the wagons based on religion here



And I'll be back to expand on my previous point.

It won't so much be an 'answer' as it will be an explanation of the metaphor that was an answer to jade's metaphor...

=)

"There is beauty and goodness in the shadows as well"

Yes, indeed there is.

I find the analogy of an electric lamp very fitting actually, in many ways. I was not raised to believe in god. Nor was I raised *not* to. I was left 'in the dark' you might say, on such matters. Through my own interests and curiosities, I studied many paths of spirituality as an adolescant - native american philosophies, greek, egyptian and norse mythology, buddhism, hinduism, shintoism...they all fascinated me in one way or another. Perhaps to fill a void, perhaps to figure out what this 'religion' deal was all about, perhaps simply as an extension to the overwhelming curiosity that drove all of my actions.

I eventually, around the age of 13-14 or so, began down the path of christianity - becoming part of a local church youth group. All in all, it was a very positve experience, and the people involved were very postive people. Having never been baptized as an infant, I decided I would be then. No big thing, just seemed fitting. I began to pray. I began to ask personal questions of god - the same personal questions I had often asked myself - why did my life have to be the way it was, why me? why here? why so damn hard? etc... I didn't expect actual answers, I wasn't looking for things to be suddenly made better, I was just asking. I figured if god had a spare moment, maybe he'd help me figure some shit out.

I found after time, that if I so chose, I could in fact see this 'light'. I found that I could 'explain' some things very...conveniently. Not very satisfactorily, not very convincingly, but awful damn conveniently. I could simply 'want' to believe, and damnitall, I'd believe. I could simply accept the pre-fab answers, and wouldn't you know it? They'd be true.

Now, this didn't sit well with me.

I had learned at an early age that things that were so damn convenient usually didn't really hold up in the end.

I began to back away from the 'light'. When I did this, I began to see the wires, the fixture, the lampost that held it there. I began to see how mans' works had created and set in place this false light.

I also began to realize that outside of this false light, there was a natural light that already existed, and though it shown brightly, it varied and it moved, and it had a soft edge...in between the darkness and the light there were many levels of light and shadow that were irremovably intertwined with each other and were both an integral part of both eachother and of the scene as a whole.

You see, when standing in such a magnificantly bright light, anything outside the light is dark. There is nothing in between, there is no possibility of 'maybe', there is no measurement, there are no variations.

Your thoughts tend to quickly follow suit when standing in such a bright light, and things no longer require thought - they either are or they aren't. The book has the answers. But damn, it's so hard to figure out what they mean...so we have a group to tell us what they mean, and if they say it's so than it's so. If they say it's not than it's not.

From that perspective, it's impossible to see the beauty that is creatd by the interaction of shadow and light, the infinite possibilities that is life.

From that perspective, it is impossible to see that this 'lamp' is not the only source of light, and that there are sources that are far more inspiring.

So, say not that I choose not to switch on your lamp and remain in darkness, but rather that I will happily leave your lamp lit yet turn instead to see the spectacular sunrise on the horizon.

In doing so, I have explored depths of my soul that quite frankly I don't think many people have.

I also learned that I didn't need a book - or a group of people in funny hats surrounded by gold and manufacturing edicts - to tell me what was right or wrong. I had the answers within me, if only I looked hard enough.




{{edit for spelling and clarification}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 04-11-2003).]

I just have to keep returning to this thread, so many twists and turns and more heads than a hydra...

Jade: "Circling wagons?" I wish such a thing existed in my life, it would be most useful in other areas but sadly I personaly am an independent and unafiliated operator. My thoughts are my own and the kicks in the butt I sometimes recieve as a result are my own too.

Well said DL-44. I appreciate that little glimps into your experience. Mine has been uncanily similar.. almost identical and not suprisingly I have arrived at similar beautiful conclusions. I have learned to trust myself and see far wider then prescribed by the so called bearers of the light. It took me half a life of struggle against myself and deep rooted attitudes, fears, blocks and so-called needs and insecurities but I eventualy got around that corner and total vision combined with an exquisite simple clarity opened up before me. Everything is okay...everyhting has the potential to be fine in my world. Despite having taken many wrong turns on the path the journey has been nothing short of a miraculous adventure.

Bigamus: I am familiar with the quote you offered and how it is often rendered and will get back to you on that one (a bite sized response I promise).

..and I appreciate everyone's sincere offerings and contributions in here...

...xpi...

"nuff said"

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 04-11-2003).]

*chuckes*

um, that's not how you spell b-u-g-i-m-u-s' name, x.



he likes bugs - not polymatrimony.

*Munch, munch...gotta love popcorn*

Very nice post, DL...reminds me of posts of olde...*sigh*

Now we just need Peter to poke his head in here...

*Sends the wafting, irresistable smell of hot, freshly popped butter-n-salt popcorn down the halls, and out to the Garden*

hm.....
->god=mercy
right?
->We all should forgive
right?
So.....just tell me something...
WHY IS THERE A HELL?


*Bleargh* Get lost!!!

Thank you DL & X for sharing. I am grateful to know you
as posters better.

One day I may share myself as well.

On the issue of hell, I would like to know what the posters who do not believe in a life after mortal death, to share what they think happens to their consciousness?

I read a passage in the christian bible one time on the question of what it was like when you died. The answer was something like "Remember what it was like before you were born?"

This is the first time here in a long time. This board has done some good changes from what I remember and looks great. Some very interesting people here. Good day to you all.

I thought that was a beautiful response DL.

I must have spent over an hour reading this entire thread and it has been enlightening to say the least. Several times I wished I could interject points or ask for clarifications and I am truly sorry I didn't follow this one earlier.

~Hands out the drinks and helps himself to some popcorn~

interesting stuff DL, and i can certainly see how you arrive at your conclusions. i'm extremely involved in a youth ministry so i can also relate to a lot of what you've probably experienced. that being said, i'll share a story.

at a conference a worship/music leader from a very well-known church was speaking, he was from one of these churches that had made the news even in the secular world because of the attention their services had received and the flood of people that were attending because of the way God was moving there. one of his comments went something like this:

"sometimes when i'm up on stage i'm just not feeling connected to God, i might be at a spiritual low or just having a bad day. but i can lead worship on a sunday morning and i you'll think i'm just overflowing with the spirit of God and that the spirit is moving; i'm just that good."

this sort of shocked the crowd but he went on to make an important point, and one that relates a lot to what you talked about. most churches are full of good people who want to do good things, and they tailor their services to meet the needs that people have both emotionally and spiritually. and as people, we sometimes get so comfortable in a pattern of behavior that it just becomes how things are, rather than what's really happening. we react without really reacting if you will, because we know what's expected of us in certain situations.

the thing is, that's not where God really shows up. God starts where we leave off, its where we realize we can't handle the situation or act outside our comfort zone because we believe God is really in control. i'd wager most christians don't ever get to that point because they don't need to and don't want to step outside their bubble, they're comfortable where they're at and that's all there is to it. sometimes events force them to step into that area of total trust in God, and that's where truly awesome things happen.

i've had things happen just like you mentioned, where i look back and wonder if i created a situation in my mind that made everything seem a certain way. but i've also seen and experienced and been thru things that have no rational explanation whatsoever except God. one of my close friend's brothers has been in the hospital for about 6 months now, he made some really bad decisions and hung out with the wrong people and had something explode in his lap; that resulted in 3rd degree burns over 75% of his body and almost killed him. but he's at least 8 months ahead of schedule on his recovery and will soon be released. he has had no infection resulting from his burns. zero, absolutely none. ask anyone in a medical field and they'll tell you that doesn't happen, its impossible, that's why his hospital stay was estimated at 18 months and not the 8 months that its looking like. and that's correct, it is impossible, these doctors at one of the top burn centers in the country have never even heard of this occurring. it just can't happen.

but true light makes anything possible.

chris

jade - i can see why you say,

quote:

---

I think the children of Israel prefigures us as people.

---

but that's different from saying you are one of the children of israel.

interesting, this is the first time i've seen the trinity described as a committee :

quote:

---

In the esscence of God is a working divine family. Separate entities, but all the same. They all complete each other... Each entity perfectly loves itself and the separate divine persons.

---

dl- i have made a similar journey and though i've encountered different views on the reality of god, what i found on my journey is what resonates inside of me.

[edit] fix punctuation

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 04-12-2003).]

That is interesting VR

It seems to me what you or DL & X has described of you inner self is Godlike in a way in that your self knowldege is connecting.

DL, thank you very much for that view into yourself. I feel I know you that much better now. I hope to have plenty more times to exchange views with you on topics such as these.

velvetrose, I also consider the church to be Israel... now. [edit] There are gobs of passages to support that in the NT. But you have to keep in mind that we are talking about a Christian view. If Jesus was not the Messiah and the Jews are right in waiting for the real one, then you are correct that the chosen people are still the Jews. [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 04-13-2003).]

thanks for the explanation bugs. i'm not sure i understand your view and i don't recall encountering it whilst i was catholic, but given your knowledge of things christian, i'll accept that it is a recognized xian viewpoint.

There is some disagreement in the Xian world on this topic, I would be happy to go into it more if ever you are interested. The basics really are that the Jews were given the privilege of receiving God's plan first and then they were to transmit it to all peoples. So Xianity really is just the fulfillment and natural extension of Judaism. Of course, this idea *really* pisses off most Jews today, which is understandable. But like I said, it's right there in the book.

[edit] someday I'll learn to type properly [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 04-13-2003).]

Jade, I wanted to get back to something with you if I could. You said way up there somewhere:

quote:

---

Lets set aside the question of church authority because this can cloud the christian to christian approach to what we are try to understand.

---

Please understand that when you and I approach these questions, Roman Catholic authority has everything to do with our differences. Your church teaches quite a few things that I will not find in the bible and the only way I could know about them is to listen to the RCC authority. So please understand that we are at an impasse before we even begin talking.

The only way that could change is if you can convince me your church really is what it claims to be. You're certainly welcome to try as I'm sure that would be interesting

Bugs

I am not interested in converting you to Catholicism.
As long as you consider your bible your church, that
is your authority. The sacred book and how you individually interpret it works for you. I am glad you are Christian. I myself feel the CC has and still is evolving with the times. Meaning scripture will never change, but tradition does with the times. CC is still growing. Our dogma will never change, but some doctrines will. I just present what I as a Catholic see the faith thru study and experience. But as christian to christian no matter what sect, I think dialogue is important as we have a certain man in common.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 04-13-2003).]

*shudders and exits the conversation*

Jade, I am not questioning your sincerity at all. I'm glad we've had this opportunity to get to know you better.

But let me just finish this by saying what bothers me the most about your position is that you seem to shy away from *thinking critically* about your faith. I know your church historically has discouraged questioning of its core doctrine and you seem to be very comfortable with that.

I believe Xianity demands the best from our hearts *and* our minds. I also believe that if Xianity is true, then it should be able to stand up against any alternative on its own merits. It should therefore be approached critically to allow it to prove itself to one's own self as well as to others.

[edit] correcting very poor grammar [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 04-15-2003).]

I know you might not be able to understand this statement.

But in the doctrine of CC belief, Christ is the church , the people are the church. My family is a church. I am a church. The church is an instituion, a building, a concept. I cannot separate all of this from me. I am in all of each entity and it in me. To criticize it, is critizing me and all the other entities. I can live with the criticism. Thur the sacrament of confirmation I am commissioned to defend the church & to explain it.

I might not explain myself or my belief very well to make you understand me. I know thur history of the church and pesently there is lots to criticize. Look at the history of the apostleship of the chosen. All twelve knew him, one betrayed him and they all abandoned him. So if they lost faith, or erred, why can't their successors fall too. The church is not yet perfected, but one day it will be. Until that time I remain as faithful as I can.

I will not hold it against you if you do not want to discuss faith with me. I thought to bridge would be a good thing. But it is not always possible.

jade - there is a big difference between "criticising" and "thinking critically about" your faith.

you have accepted your faith without asking any questions, which is fine by me.

however, you also wish to win other people over. chances are, they will ask questions, they will need answers, they will need to be convinced.

as such, it is very useful if you compare, for yourself, your religion against other religions, your denomination against other denominations, so that you can provide a more compelling argument for why you chose this faith.

John 7:16,17 says:

quote:

---

"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. "

---

Open question: what do you think Jesus means when he says this? Why does he not just say "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will just accept that my teaching comes from God"?

Reitsma,

Your right in the "thinking critically about" remark.


The bible passage from John you posted means this to me:

Jesus who is the son of God also grew in wisdom and knowlege of his father. When the son speaks of the father, he speaks to reveal the will of the father, which Jesus himself follows. Anyone who sees the son sees the father. If you accept just to see the son who is God but do not do his will, you will not come to know who the one who sent the son is. By doing the will of the father which requires faith you get to know him by growing in wisdom and knowlege just like the son who we are called to imitate. The more you look for God , the more you find him. God doesn't reveal to you all at once. Its a journey of revelations here & there. You know he is God, but you desire always to know him on a more personal level.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 04-15-2003).]