Topic awaiting preservation: 2012 - A New Beginning, or the End?

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Mayan 2012 - After years of considering data from varied fields such as astronomy, ethnography, archeology and iconography, J. Eric S. Thompson determined that 0.0.0.0.0 correponded to the Julian date 584283, which equals August 11th, 3114 B.C. in our Gregorian calendar. This means that the end date of 13.0.0.0.0, some 5125 years later, is December 21st, 2012 A.D.1

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I Ching 2012 - By matching the levels of the pattern with key periods in history, they determined it would fit best if the end of the time scale was December 22, 2012. This is the only point in which the level of novelty reaches its maximum, and everything that happens is new. Change feeds upon itself like nano-machines converting every atom in the universe into gold.

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I find this very interesting that both systems arrived at the same conclusion. What does this say about the intelect of our human ancestors, the importance of numbers, and perhaps for what kind of changes we are going to go through around this time?

One, rather strange and intersting source had this to say:

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2012 Unlimited - The time/science of the Mayan Civilization seems to be on track. They say that by 2012 we will have moved through the 4th dimension into the 5th, regained our 12 strands of DNA (via "re-programming from the Supreme Intelligence" at the centre of our galaxy, the Milky Way), moved beyond duality (positive & negative) to pure light.

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{edit - By the way, this originally came from a shamanic forum I belong to called The Corroboree.}


Ozone Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 04-01-2003).]

You always bring interesting articles to the table, Gilbert.

I remember reading a book called Domain once, where this guy had to stop the whole Mayan myth thingy mentioned above from coming true.

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From a religious view, I would say that nobody knows the date the the world will end, because, for the most part, it says so in the Bible, and that God will come for us when he feels it's right. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

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As for this, maybe the two civilizations evolved from the same roots? Well, most likely not. Wait. No. I think not, because Asians are decendants of Mongols, but I'm not sure about who the Mayans came from. Or, maybe it was a similar system of numbers, like you said.

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Maybe it has relevance, maybe it doesn't. I'm guessing that it's a pattern of some sort involving numbers./

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~cfb!

People generally predict the end of the world at least once a decade. This happens all the time. I'll believe it when I see it.

For what it's worth: If we knew when the end of the world would be, would we change the way we live? If so, then I think we need to reexamine the way we're living...

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 04-01-2003).]

Clearly wrong on both counts. We know for a fact that we're here for a lot longer.

By CHAD KULTGEN

NEW YORK -- Federal investigators have arrested an enigmatic Wall Street wiz on insider-trading charges -- and incredibly, he claims to be a time-traveler from the year 2256!

^ Well that debunks the above statements. No lie

cfb: there was a little religious guy on the tv in the wee hours that told me that he could tell me when the world was going to end AND who the antichrist would be....so i watched...and he never did tell me!!! it really ticked me off! i could have been sleeping!!
bet if i sent him $29.95 and $4.00 shipping and handling he would tell me though.......

__________________________
Cell 1007::SST

This is a bit different than some guy predicting the end of the world. This is based on the Myan calender, which was created thousands of years ago, and is accurate in predicting all sorts of thing, like eclipses even to this day. I am not saying the world is going to end, as I know it never will, I am just saying, why this date? Why 2012...What major changes do you think they could of forseen based on numbers?


Ozone Quotes

cfb is right - you do find all sorts of interesting things to talk about!

All sorts of geologic and climatic changes could likely be predicted with a caledar of that nature. If someone took the time to sit down with it and pick out the important bits of information...

One of the things I've heard predicted with some frequency is a polar shift. Where the earth's crust shifts and the poles are relocated from their current magnetic positions. The shifting of the crust of the earth would cause massive earthquakes and tidal waves, most likely wiping out life on the planet.

It appears, that since this type of cataclysmic event is so very frightening and beyond our control, there's not a lot of hard core evidence to predict when that might happen, if it could happen and what not. (Scientists don't really like to publish data that clearly states that life will end at such and such a moment in time. They have a bad enough rep as it is!) But a quick search of Google brought up all kinds of new age sites predicting that one could be in our reletively near future. Again, hard and fast data is not immediately available.

However, if we aren't careful, we won't make it long enough to see a polar shift happen. We'll kill ourselves first...
(see the current crisis in the mid-east...) Beyond that, at some point in the galactic future, the Sun will expand into a Red Giant, and the earth will be toast anyway... (they had a special on the Discovery Channel about that the other day!)

hmm... I'm starting to wonder why I even worry about my miniscule, meaningless little life...

Bodhi - Cell 617

CFB - Mayhap they did come from the same roots. I mean maybe we all did. It could have been something like Atlantis. An ancient civilization that was forced from its home and scattered to the corners of the earth. All civilizations from one base growing into different races based on geological issues and what-not. Yeah, Yeah, I know Plato and Socrates talk about Atlantis but it was already legend by then. How old are our legends? How far back do they go? How old must their (Socrates and Plato's) legends have to have been?

If we consider the length of time it might have taken an Atlantean society to grow and prosper into the magnificance it's purported to have, the calanders and structures that the Mayans and early asians used could very well have accurate information on natural occurances that happen every few thousand years... it's something to think about.

Not to mention that, as far as time goes, most counting/number structures are based on the reality of the calendar. Length of day and time of year sort of stuff. If they based their entire time structure on the span of time between disaster(A) and disaster(B)... Well... yeah... I suppose that would make it all very accurate, as it relates to itself anyway.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 04-01-2003).]

"I am not saying the world is going to end, as I know it never will..."

But it will GN. I beleive the most recent 'best' calculations have our Sun burning out in approx. 5 billion years. My wife on the other hand believes we, by our own hand, will pretty much if not entirely, destroy the human species in less than 800 years..that's here on this planet. And hey... my wife's *always* right. So I figure we best get to partyin' right smartly. <lol>

Sometimes I sits and thinks. Sometimes I just sits.

"...the world is going to end..."

What exactly do each of us mean when we say "world" in this context?

^ Planet Earth. Everything that creeps crawls breathes and craps thereon. Cosmic Soup for me Bugs. <bg> Once gone... gone.

I hope that by the time it is time for our sun to expire, we will have advanced far enough to be able to go somewhere, or maybe even to create a new sun.

As far as the 800 yr thing, I am hoping that within the next several hundred yrs, a least a majority of the humans will realize that we must be very careful with the earth and it's resources, and perhaps also by then, we will have the technology to prevent, say....an ice age, or perhaps....a time of extreme heating. Perhaps we will have the technology to maintain a pretty nice climate everywhere on the planet.

Of course this is my optimistic view....

I think we should all answer this question because we obviously have different definitions. When I say world I mean *everything* in the entire universe -- including parallel/multiple/dimensional universes.

*That* is the end of the world to me. And this brings up an interesting point about people who predict the end of the world based on Biblical prophecy. As a Xian, I do believe that the world (see definition above) will end someday but I don't share the common PreMillenial view of that end. I'll leave that there for now because it could open up another whole thread.

But just to point out how different people use the word, world, I wanted to quote this exchange between Jesus and His apostles:

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Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

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A lot of Protestants believe the disciples were asking about the end of the world and not the end of the world as they knew it at the time, which was Judea. Because remember the Romans carried out Jesus' prediction of destroying the temple in 70AD. So was this chapter in the bible talking about 70AD totally, in part, or not at all?

I just wanted to point out that it is very important to be clear about definitions before we go too far in the discussion

Bugs, maybe the temple will get rebuilt and then torn down?

It says in Revelations that the temple will be rebuilt, no?

So then whats to stop someone from tearing it down?

I mean, according to the Bible, the 144,000 Jews are supposed to make some sort of last stand in Israel, right? Maybe the Temple gets torn down then...If your beleieve whats in the Bible.

Considering the fact that they aren't allowed to fully excavate the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, due to the existence of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, it's unlikely that the actual, physical Temple would be rebuilt in our time. Unless something seriously changes in the way the Old City of Jerusalem is run... Both the Dome and Al-Aqsa are considered monuments as historical as the Temple Mount itself... but they have located the foundations of the 2nd Temple itself. (It's a pretty interesting site, to tell the truth. I was there in 1995, and the mixture of 3 major religions in that little space is unique in all the world... The Western (Wailing) Wall, the Dome and the Mosque, as well as having the whole area surrounded by Christian churches... )

I always understood the passages referring to the rebuilding of the Temple to be euphamisms for either the ressurection of Christ, the 2nd coming, or the Kingdom of Heaven. At least, that's the way they teach it in New Testament classes these days... The "Temple" in question being the Body of Christ... I might have to look for some references on that one.

As for the end of the world - well, if you think about it, the world as we know it is ending right now, because of the war in Iraq. This conflict is going to cause major change and upheavel in the way that the international community functions. The ending of one way of life to make room for a new way of life. This could be considered and "end to the age"... However, when I think of the end of the world, I think about cataclysmic geologic or climatic forces actually wiping out life on the planet. It would be great if we could get ourselves into a position to make a new home somewhere else before something like that actually happened. I feel pretty safe in saying that unless we blow ourselves up, the world probably is not going to end before my natural life does.

As for religious predictions for the world's end, given the number of translations that most of them have been through over the ages, there's no telling what exactly those predicitions are referring to. The farther removed we are from the context in which they were made, the more vague those words become. Without hard and fast evidence, or convergence thereof, it's pretty dang difficult to predict anything with any accuracy. I'll take my chances on the geology of the planet we're living on.

Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 04-02-2003).]

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Mayhap they did come from the same roots. I mean maybe we all did.

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Well yes...we all did. The species originated in Africa. After millions (?) of years for some unkown reason, groups started to migrate, heading northeast into eurasia, and splitting off west into europe and east into asia. Eventually groups headed north through asia and through siberia and across into North America...and of course on soutward.

These things have been traced through a combination of genetics, mythos, and archealogical evidence. Many native american tribes, for instance have very important migration stories, which tend to be believed by modern tribe-members as metaphores for the creation of their people, but which in reality are most likely discussing this very real migration.

I've always found ancient calndars quote fascinating. I would have to say though, that such numbers as these are simply the result of similar astronomical studies leading to the same numerical base, and 2012 is simply the end of the numerical cycle and does not necessarily *end* and begin again, but simply continues on through the next revolution of the cycle.

After futher though, I agree DL-44. In 2012 what is going to happen is that the entire galaxy is going to be in alignment. Basically, when we look up and see the milky way, it is rather scattered, but at this particular day, it will be very dense because we are going to be looking right into the heart of it. This means that our sun, all the other suns, and the center of the galaxy are going to be on the same plane. Now some people say that this will cuase all sorts of things to happen to us, ranging from our strands of DNA going from 2 to 12, thus allowing us to become super-humans, to simple things like all humans will realize that they are good and happy on the inside, or something.

This sort of thought though, reminds me of what people said was going to happen when all the planets lined up, and well...this happened about a year or so ago, and well...we are still the same.

Which leads to the fact that we will just have to wait and see what happens.

Bugs - here's a link providing some of the verses related to the Temple as the Body of Christ, or as the Body of the Church... clicky

I suppose I could look further for more, but since it's an aside to the whole 2012 end of the world theme, I better not...

*edit - though, the further I read through the page, I see it does present both perspectives...

Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 04-03-2003).]

if the world does end in 2012, we can remember the talking fish and wonder why we didn't listen

If the world ends in 2012, I imagine we won't care too much about the talking fish...

And if the world doesn't end....we still won't care about the talking fish

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Well yes...we all did. The species originated in Africa.

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I love it when people make statements as if they know exactly what they're talking about... but hmm, THIS SITE says humans originated in iraq (isnt that ironic)!!!

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NEW YORK -- Federal investigators have arrested an enigmatic Wall Street wiz on insider-trading charges -- and incredibly, he claims to be a time-traveler from the year 2256!

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and what if this alleged time-traveler is just a (real) lunatic? I mean, Einstein and many others did say that t/(1-sqrt(v^2/c^2)) doesnt make sense at v>=c (in case u didnt take physics in the past 3 years, this talks of time dilation as speed of a body approaches the speed of light), hey! maybe they were right?

Also, one of my friends saw a program on the Discovery channel (?) about Supervolcanos. I did a little homework and typed it in google for you. THIS IS one of the sites that came up.

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Try to imagine 1000 volcanoes erupting in the same place at the same time.

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A large part of the [yellowstone] national park area is a giant crater formed by the last explosion 640,000 years ago.

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It explodes regularly every 600,000 years - in between it is quiet, now it is overdue.

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well... those are also scientific predictions... and if they're right, then we should've died out (like the dinosaurs) 40 thousand years ago - which implies that 2012 just might be the day, and the ancients knew it.

The moral of this story is: Dont jump to optimistic/pissimistic conclusions just because one sourse says this is how it is going to be. We're human, it is human to err - and not everything we know is as true as we'd like (or not) things to be.

If anyone cares for my personal opinion, then I'd say that both, the bible and the current science talk of the end of the world ( bible is obvious, and science talks of oscillating universe, which I understand has a very low probaility of oscillating back to singularity in 9 years), and also that the evidence (scriptures) we posess does talk of ancients posessing the knowledge we could only dream of, just look at astrology, accupuncture, legends(did anyone ever think that some of them could be interpretations of greater knoledge by a primitive mind?), language systems (look above), etc... When talking about things like this it is VERY important not to jump to conclusions based on work of one group of humans and saying "hey they say this is how it is - so this is how it is" - in doing so you're commiting the same mistake as does the U.S. media described in B.Goldberg's "BIAS." After all, please remember, that nothing in this world has only one reason for existing or happening. It is always the combination of things (for instance, you cant say that the war in Iraq is "just about oil" because there are a bunch of other advantages of attacking which dont even touch chemical weaponry or oil)

Keep being openminded !!! thanks for reading.


::The Lair::

[This message has been edited by asptamer (edited 04-07-2003).]

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I love it when people make statements as if they know exactly what they're talking about... but hmm, THIS SITE says humans originated in iraq (isnt that ironic)!!!

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The modern human species did evolve first in Africa. Check out this National Geographic article. Africa is where we find the oldest Homo Erectus fossils.

Modern Civilization evolved in the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, referred to as Mesopotamia. See this link.

There's a huge difference between the two topics. Before the question is asked, I do know what I'm talking about, I've been studying Anthropology and Archaeology for going on 10 years now.

It's entirely possible that the scientific consensus is wrong, and that the origin of the species was elsewhere, but we've yet to come across any fossil remains older than what has been found in Africa. The Great Rift Valley is on the eastern coast of that continent is where the oldest bi-pedal primate remains have been found, some are a couple million years old. But the oldest archaeological remains of organized community living are located in the Fertile Crescent between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

Lots of religions have different stories/predictions about how the world is going to end. Believe whichever one your prefer. Science has a lot of different views about how it could possibly happen too. In that case, it's whichever one happens first. Unfortunately, when it finally happens, there likely won't be anyone left to say who was wrong or right...

Bodhi - Cell 617

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I love it when people make statements as if they know exactly what they're talking about... but hmm, THIS SITE says humans originated in iraq (isnt that ironic)!!!

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The moral of this story is: Dont jump to optimistic/pissimistic conclusions just because one sourse says this

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Interesting paradox asptamer.

I just love it when people make disparaging comments without knowing what they're talking about



Bodhi obviously know a bit more than I do - listen to her =) I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about as well though asptamer...be careful how quickly you jump to conclusions.





[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 04-07-2003).]

LOL. ok you got me... I jumped to a conclusion "I'm not sure you know what youre talking about." Perhaps I was wrong thinking your argument was baseless. I was wrong thinking your source is wrong. After all, fossils are the key to our past... only, what fossils exactly are we talking about here? Neanderthal? I've read an article where some scientists say that N. wasn't related to modern humans. Some other fossils? It would be nice if u specified. I mean what exactly do you mean by species? Which theory do you support? Genesis or Darwinism? I'll assume it's darwinism since ure an anthropologist, but then - didnt we gradually evolve from apes? if so at what point in evolution do the "species" start? In africa? says who? U get the idea, I hope. Please do tell where I'm wrong.

If u take biblical side (genesis) then (according to certain source) the Garden of Eden was located in mesopotamia - and that information is (I assume) from the oldest (non-fossil) sources available to us - scriptures. Its just interesting, how a 5000 year old homo sapiens, less evolved than today's one, was able to create writings which surpass today's ones by complexity and inginuity of idea. Could it be that those 'apes' knew something we dont?

And once again, the dinosaurs... they all just died out. Maybe we're next and maybe it IS indeed 2012. My conclusions aren't important, I think this post started out as a conversation about that particular date, or rather its appearance in 2 diff. cultures.

I'll try to be more careful with my wording next time : )


::The Lair::

Asptamer - I believe I did say:

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Africa is where we find the oldest Homo Erectus fossils.

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In order of evolution the important fossils go: Australopithicus, Homo Erectus, Homo Sapiens give or take a couple in between that I've left out. The Neanderthal remains that you're referring to are indeed an evolutionary dead end. Modern Man did not evolve from Neanderthal. The evolution of "man" begins when it's obvious that the fossils found represent a species that walks upright, bi-pedal. Other primates don't move that way. (There's a name for their mode of motor activity, but I can't remember it at the moment.) The remains we have from the Australopithecenes are the earliest known that exemplify bi-pedalism, so that's where we start human evolution. "Lucy", the best known, most complete example of an Australopithecene was found in the Great Rift Valley in Africa.

Personally, I don't subscribe to any one religious belief system. I was raised a Christian, my mother is an Episcopal minister, and I've studied all manner of the Occult "sciences" over the years. All religious systems have their own merit, and also some ideas that I disagree with. I tend to lean towards the scientific side because these things have evidence that can be seen and touched. Granted, I do agree that there are forces in nature that we've not fully even begun to understand. Could be anything; the possibilities are as numerous as the stars in the sky. Have you ever watched the movie "Dogma"? (If not, it's a must see... View Askew Productions) There's a line in there that sums it up perfectly for me: "... Don't have beliefs, have ideas: you can change an idea..."

I don't think it's impossible for the 2 ideas to mesh together. We're talkin' about a vast amount of time here. Human stories of the creation of the world all start from when humans walked on the planet. We all know that by the time humans were walking around, dinosaurs were nowhere to be found. There's a branch of Creation Science called "Day-Age Creationism" where they believe that each of the "days" that God was creating the world were actually epochs or eons of time... and that all of the earth's prehistory is contained in those time periods... THEN man comes on the scene. Makes sense to me... As to what actually killed the dinosaurs, I believe the scientific jury is still out on that...

It is extremely important to remember the space of time we're talking about in human evolution too. The Australopithecene fossils are millions of years old. Heck, the oldest Homo Sapiens fossils are older than 2 million years. When you think about it that way, the fact that someone 5,000 years ago wrote something so insightful doesn't seem to strange. While human bodies are still evolving and still changing, the human brain has not, itself, changed excessively over the last several thousand years. If it changed too much, mayhap babies heads would be too large for them to be born! (Think about what your mom went through to push you out...) All humans have really been doing over that time is extrapolating and refining the knowledge that has been passed down to us, as well as adding to that body of knowledge our own, new discoveries. And besides, these days our attention is more fixed on navigating the ever more complex culture and society we've been creating for ourselves. The people who created these calendars and writings and prophecies didn't have all that much to do with their time!


*aside: tee-hee! Props from DL! Thanx man!

Bodhi - Cell 617

*edit - sp. (damn fingers again!)

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 04-07-2003).]

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Which theory do you support? Genesis or Darwinism?

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Well, 'darwinsim' isn't really what I would call an equivalent belief system to 'genesis'. I don't think you can really call genesis a real theory on the origin of the species either - it is quite clearly a mythological account.

There's no reason christianity and theories of evolution can't coexist, as one does not preclude the other, but the genesis account is just too much fairy tale - we may as well dig out Chronos and the titans...

As far as the 5,000 year old texts, it's not surprising at all. As bodhi has said, by that point we were as evolved as we are now. It has been estimated that it takes in the vacinity of 20,000 years for the human brain to 'change' so to speak...for the way our thought proccess evolves to develop.

In that sense, 5,000 years is almost insignifcant. In the sense that Bodhi put it - relative the timeline of the species - it is but a drop in the bucket.

Now, the sophistication of the actual theories of development is a more relvant issue, and I think we can claim to have a much more informed idea of how things began - if you still wish to use 'god' to fill in the blanks, I suppose that's fine too.

Personally, I prefer to just leave it open =)


=)

asptamer: What DL (and bodhi) said concerning human evolution is about right. The main debate in palaeoanthropology is whether our species emerged from Africa around 100,000 years ago and replaced the other hominid species or whether we evovled in situ from the widespread hominids. This debate is 'lively' and based on evidence.

Creationsit arguements tend to be based on the Bible and strained attempts to make some evidence fit their theory.

bodhi: You said:

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One of the things I've heard predicted with some frequency is a polar shift. Where the earth's crust shifts and the poles are relocated from their current magnetic positions. The shifting of the crust of the earth would cause massive earthquakes and tidal waves, most likely wiping out life on the planet.

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The crust doesn't (and can't) shift around like that - plate tectonics (a theory as close to fact as you could wish for) explains the gradual change of the earth and the pole also wanders and then occasionally flips (after a period of instability) - its likely that the flipping would be pretty unpleasant but it has happened since humans have been on the earth and we seem to have struggled through before.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

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Bodhi - We all know that by the time humans were walking around, dinosaurs were nowhere to be found.

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Um, I'm not so sure about this....Dinosaur & Human Footprints


Ozone Quotes

Emps - in the realm of speculation about the end of the world, I offered that up as a possibility. Perhaps I misunderstood the explanations I was reading. There's some pretty complicated theories out there surrounding that whole thought. Whether it's an actual threat or not - I'm not taking a stand... Jes' speculatin' along with everyone else...

GN - there is still some debate going on about the Paluxy prints. I think at last hearing, they had determined that the prints that are being claimed as human, are actually those of a smaller species of dinosaur. I'll have to look for some back up on that one...

edit - here you go:
try this
and this
and this

Hope that clears that issue up!

Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 04-07-2003).]

Bodhi, you're right (if I'm remembering correctly!). Those small prints were determined to belong to a smaller dinosaur, not a human.

Fun link - http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/

bodhi: Sorry I wasn't implying you were taking a stance but it has come up a lot in these kind of sitations before - its rubbish

And you are right about the dinosaur prints - everyone should check talk origins before being so credulous

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Emps - no big deal. I didn't specify that in my initial post, so it could have been construed either way. Honestly, I think people have been talking about the end of the world since they could think about whether or not the world could end... As a species, we've come up with so many ways for the world to end, I'm surprised we're still here! But given the lengthy history of the world, and the fact that so many of the earth's species have, for one reason or another, become extinct, humans can't expect to be the only exception. Whether we die out (or kill ourselves) first, or the world ends first, it's all one...

For some things, science is really slow to get debunking evidence. But when it comes to creation "science", the scientists are on top of that stuff! Anytime someone comes up with something like the Paluxy prints, the scientific community is swift to get on the scene and prove it... I took an interesting class last semester dicussing these types of things, (Belief in Weird Things, is what it was called) and one of the most important things that my professor stressed was to always check the sources of claims, and to verify them in more than one place. Probably the most useful piece of info I've ever gotten in a class...

Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 04-07-2003).]

hehe ok. to understand the end we have to know the beginning? sounds fair and very interesting, but a bit off topic dont you think?

we can discuss the fossils and footprints of dinosaurs with toes coming up with diverse 'scientific' and not explanations which would or not coincide with our personal views which are probably based on someone esle's research which coincided with their personal views.

now I'm curious - without replies like "it's too remote a topic and it's usless to make guesses," what are your beliefs as to what thatt 2012 is - or credibility of prophets and 'end of the world' referrences in ancient "fairy tales"

... or should we just say "it's too remote a topic and it's usless to make guesses" and just close this thread?
... or should I just stop annoying you and shut up for once ? : )


::The Lair::

from an earlier post -

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I would have to say though, that such numbers as these are simply the result of similar astronomical studies leading to the same numerical base, and 2012 is simply the end of the numerical cycle and does not necessarily *end* and begin again, but simply continues on through the next revolution of the cycle.

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I would also say that it's "it's too remote a topic and it's usless to make guesses"
But that doesn't mean we can't still talk about it =)

for your consideration:

found this on an earlier topic. Could be a bunch of rubbish or "fairy tales," or an attempt to preserve a historic event

The Raelians? Why do they remind me so much of the Nation of Islam beliefs? LOL!

It's certainly a broad topic, if nothing else. Since there's no hard and fast evidence about any of it, one could take the stance that it is indeed useless to talk further about it.

I have a hard time separating individual events out of any system of religious thought, since it all boils down to an overall belief anyway. However, if it has indeed been documented that the Mayan calendar has successfully predicted several events, astronomically, I wouldn't doubt that in some form or fashion, they could be completely correct about 2012 being the end of the world. Several existing belief systems agree that sometime in the next decade or so the world as we know it will end. But in what way do they mean end? Do they simply mean that life on the planet as a whole ceases? Or do they mean that life as we know it ceases? In the latter case, then DL's point about 2012 being the end of a cycle holds true, and that being so, we will then begin a new era... Indeed, given current world events, that's not too far-fetched a thought!

And aren't the Raelians those folks financing all the cloning going on? Isn't that where I heard that name? I could be wrong, it's happened before!
Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 04-08-2003).]

Raelians? I must've missed something... who are raelians?

asptamer, the link you just posted above comes from the Raelians web site. And, yes, they're the ones who are big time into cloning.
http://www.rael.org/

tee hee. silly me

bodhi - I'm sure the dinosaur thing was determined by someone who wants to keep the societal structure in tack, but maybe not, they certainly look like human footprints to me. But I guess with erosional effects, which for some reason didn't seem to effect the general look of the dinosaur footprints, who can tell what is the truth.

Also, about this 2012 thing, I remember reading, or perhaps hearing on an Art Bell program, this remote viewer guy saying that none of them can see past a certain date, which is somewhere around 2012. I think this is pretty interesting. Read more about Ed Dames and this wierd stuff.


Ozone Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 04-08-2003).]

quote:

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they certainly look like human footprints to me

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Well sure.

But if we went with every crackpot theory where you could say "well sure, it looks like ______ to me" we'd be in a wolrd of trouble.

Thankfully, the scientific method can help us here a little bit =)
It helps to have facts and research and education to go along with theories, as opposed to just having theories that sound cool...

GN: And use Occam's Razor - if it looks like an eroded dinosaur footprint in a bed with other dinosaur footprints then.......

And next we have the Gospel according to Art Bell. Its good to be open minded but not to the point where anything can just fall in and take up home - weirdness is fun but I think there is a bit of a lack of critical analysis of evidence (the Internet is full of crap and you need to work on a way not to accept the word of madmen and wackos as fact).

Hmmmmm that sounds a bit harsh but......

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I don't take any of this stuff as fact, it's just that someone around here has to be the wierd-o



{edit, by the way, thanks for that great link asptamer, the one with the archeological stuff.}

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 04-08-2003).]

I'm glad to hear that, GN. I don't know about you guys, but I love listening to Art Bell in the wee hours... from time to time

bodhi23, thanks for that temple link. It has some good info and I agree with most of what I saw there. Jesus made the prediction about the actual temple being destroyed and as I recall He also predicted He would rise again using a temple analogy. Those were two different verses. I think we agree on that actually

GN - I think we're all pretty much weirdos around here... else why would we be in the Asylum?

Bugs - yeah, I seem to remember hearing both interpretations. I was interested to hear that there is a society that is trying to rebuild the temple for the 3rd time, in accordance with the prophecy. It'll be interesting to see if they get anywhere with that. The Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque are both protected by historical monument laws. The Temple foundations are below both of those buildings. Archaeologists are in the process of excavating the southeast end of the temple mount in Jerusalem. It's the only bit that doesn't have a building on it! The Old City is a very cool place. If anyone gets the opportunity to visit over there, take it! Even if you're not Christian/Jewish/Muslim.

The only way to really settle disputes regarding things like fossil footprints is to put it to the test. Once you throw the supernatural into the mix, the results become unfalsifiable. You can't prove one way or the other whether or not the supernatural plays a part in anything. There's nothing tangible to test! When in doubt, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, as was noted above: Occam's Razor... The Paluxy prints have been compared to both other dinosaur prints as well as actual human footprints (of which we have a very good example in the Great Rift Valley) and the conclusion is that the prints are indeed those of a dinosaur. Just one with human-ish looking feet.

It's definitely good to keep your mind open to ideas, and even to believe in the supernatural. I do, but when I'm talking about history, I prefer to keep the scientific data close at hand! There ought to be plenty of time to work out the nature of the supernatural. 9 or 10 years ought to do it! *cough cough... 2012... cough cough*

Bodhi - Cell 617

quote:

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if it looks like an eroded dinosaur footprint in a bed with other dinosaur footprints then.......

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..... maybe it was a human running away from a herd of dinosaurs


P.S. I wanted to be a granpa

[This message has been edited by asptamer (edited 04-08-2003).]

Maybe it was bigfoot (when he was young and small, of course...)

Bodhi - Cell 617

DL - He must be pretty old by now then...

Maybe that's why folks don't see him often... he don't get around like he used to!

Bodhi - Cell 617

GN, didn't you know that BigFoot is immortal? Art Bell said so!

Back to the

quote:

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someone 5,000 years ago wrote something

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.

Uhhh...well, when one considers that most great libraries of ancient times were burned and/or destroyed, it's really hard to tell just how long mankind has been writing...one could say, those are the oldest surviving writings...I think that would be accurate to say.

I came across this site in my favourites http://exodus2006.com/2012.htm as i came across this thread. My apologies if this site has already been posted.

I'm also reading the bible code 2, which is interesting to say the least. If its true then from now on things are only going to get worse. I look at my children now 6, 4 and 17months and wonder if things get worse, Please god give me the strength to endure it with grace for my childrens sake. Who knows, maybe we will change,.......just in time.

Heh.

Things worldwide are far better than they were, say, 300 years ago (hell, pick a time - 100 years, 500 years, 1000 years...). The state of humnaity, though people generally tend to look around and say how far we've fallen, is better than it has been.

Will we change though? Nah. At our core we still haven't, and I see no reason to believe that we will now...

An interesting topic, Yes indeed... My grandfather whom died of cancer said he had drawn a conclusion from the bible, That Armegeddon, The end of the world as we know it, The end of such a pathetic race, Humanity would come. He predicted the dates of somewhere between 2010-2023.. I personally, Do not believe that I cannot control my fate, Control my life. I have no religion, I do not believe in God, and I DO NOT believe that humanity will be destroyed in the next 200 years. Enough said.

Everyone dies at one point, Wouldn't you like to did as a ginipg?

See you soon,
Doctor Thaadeous Edward Ozone

Amen DL!

That's spot on...though I do believe Man is slowly evolving further...maybe in the next 10,000 years, we will see a difference.

Has it occurred to anyone that Dec. 21, 2012 would be the Winter Solstice that year? I wonder if that has any significance to the reason why the calendar ends on that particular day...


Bodhi - Cell 617

Bodhi, I'm guessing that the reason is because most ancient calenders were based heavily on the winter and summer solstice, the longest and shortest days of the year.

As far as calenders, the Mayans were pretty spot on with their astronomy skills, but the whole significance of numbers thing usually gets blown out of proportion.

Numbers are cool and you can come up with some pretty amazing coincedences, but they're still just coincidences.

I guess is all comes down to your interpretation of the importance of coincidences. What some people percieve as coincidence, others percieve as very important information. And some things have probably been looked over in the past as only being a coincidence, to later have been discovered to be a significant pattern.


Ozone Quotes