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Topic awaiting preservation: ok guys, now i got you cornered. Pages that link to <a href="https://ozoneasylum.com/backlink?for=14183" title="Pages that link to Topic awaiting preservation: ok guys, now i got you cornered." rel="nofollow" >Topic awaiting preservation: ok guys, now i got you cornered.\

 
Author Thread
Kevin G
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 04-13-2003 05:00

My dad (who is suuuper smart) wrote a great resource page. its got a ton of stuff in there so it could take a while to read. http://www.continue.to/gospel gilbert nolander, there is even a page there for you. if at least one of you guys does not change his/her mind on your religious beliefs then man you guys are crazy. and emps, theres one for you too. hope you guys enjoy.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-13-2003 05:37

I wondered when the baptism issue was going to come up around here. I'm sorry to say that according to your dad, I think I'm somewhat hell-bound Look at it this way, and ask your dad this, if I was to go to the NT and read everything I could about baptism, what would I walk away with? In other words, if I were to forget anything I had been told about it's role prior to reading the scriptures, what would they tell me about it?

. . : slicePuzzle

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 04-13-2003 06:04

Bugs: You mean you are going to Hell and I'm going to Heaven? Somehow I think that is awfull unjust and I'll have a word with the Big Guy upstairs on your behalf. OK?

I might even offer to swap as I'm sure I'd get bored in Heaven anyway.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-13-2003 06:37

Emps, I think according to the theology outlined on that page, we are both going to miss out. And I don't think you would be bored in the least should you make it I am praying I see you there!

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 04-13-2003 06:39

er......cornered?

cornered how, exactly? Into what?

I'm a little confused quite frankly. I didn't read thoroughly, of course, but I read through several pages in several directions, but...it all seemed very dogmatic and singular, and I'm a little unsure who it could realistically be aimed at (other than people who already believe everything that is said there, or have no thought of their own).

The explanations and responses in regard to atheism are quite lacking, in particular.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 04-13-2003).]

norm
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: [s]underwater[/s] under-snow in Juneau
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 04-13-2003 06:42

I always find it remarkable when someone tells me that there is only one path to a destination, only one solution to a problem. I have never found this to be the case, but then I have yet to be accused of being super-smart.

quisja
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: everywhere
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-13-2003 10:05

DL, preaching to the converted? I agree.

I think that where this site fails is that it doesn't seem to want to answer any of the questions doubters might actually have. For example on the Islam pages it turns straight to the Bible, ignoring the fact that any Muslim would take a lot more notice of the Koran. Another example of this comes up in the page on atheism, the one about not being able to prove a negative (the point here is more about making generalisations anyway, I mean you could for example prove that one single thing is not another, simply by definition. I am not a tortoise because part of being human is not being a tortoise. Stupid example and long tangent but hopefully you get the idea). What I was trying to say about the atheism page is that it does not answer any of the points a doubter would raise. For example why is there evil and suffering in the world, if the Bible is still relevant today then is Genesis really how the world was created? Irrespective of what anyone would say to such common questions, that they have not been addressed is a fatal oversight.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-13-2003 10:56

Oh man...it's hard to get started...I'm laughing too hard...I got sent to hell in 4 clicks...hehe.

You know, there are so many suppositions on that site that the author takes as facts...and of course, no-one is going to be convinced, unless they already believe in these 'facts'. My people are going to hell...hehe...at least I won't be lonely.

So, let's take a closer look, at something...the Ark (I love that story in the Bible, btw). Here is a place in the Bible where we can really use science as a measure...even if one goes with the belief, that only the animal kindoms were represented on the Ark, it still doesn't work. Why? I'll explain...

What about afterwards? Anyone that has studied ecology, will know that predators are necessary parts of any functioning ecology. With that in mind, what were the predators eating, after the Ark? One just doesn't have enough available food for a thriving predator/prey relationship...either the one will starve out, or the prey will be eaten to extinction (and then starve out). These type of food-chain arrangements, can't 'just be started up'...they need to evolve...the point being, the birth rate among the prey isn't sufficient from two animals, to support the same number of predators sufficiently. It just doesn't work. One has to rely on a 'miracle' here...and thus, in the eyes of science, it falls apart. I have yet to see a viable explanation that applies here.

Thus, one sees this as it is, a story...not fact. Not saying that there never was an 'Ark', or that a flood never happened...but I am saying, that the animal populations that we now see, can't have come from that single source. So, the 'flood' did not wipe everything from the face of the earth...from that, we can draw the conclusion, that other human populations probably survived, as well, meaning that God did not wipe out all other humans.

Thus, taking the Bible as pure fact, and everything literally, leads to a dead end (pardon the pun ). That said, and with that in mind, re-examine that website...you'll immediately see the flaws of logic...

Anyone else want to join me in hell? *snicker*

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-13-2003 11:08

Well, I kind of joked about it with Emps, but it really is no joking matter. I obviously have some theological problems with some of that site but I am torn a bit since quite a bit of it I agree with. But I've done my best here in this place with all of you to be open and honest about these things since I believe the best ideas should be able to stand on their own merits come what may.

I hate to make it look like this is an "inside fight" but the truth is, there are disagreements and differences in theology between groups. Some are critical, like baptism, and others are not, like whether you worship on Sundays or Thursdays.

. . : slicePuzzle

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 04-13-2003 15:55

Let me join the confused here... why does the site assume that I am not a Christian if I am not Catholic? I also don't quite understand the "cornered" bit either... is that what this is all about? Cornering people so they have no choice? That doesn't seem like a very effective (or Biblical, for that matter) way to witness...

Sanzen
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Raleigh, NC
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 04-13-2003 18:51

"If Biblical Christianity turns out to be a fraud, the "worst" that can be said is that those who follow the Bible have been encouraged to leave alcoholism behind, to be loving fathers and mothers, and to live lives that they find meaningful and satisfying. Biblical Christianity is nothing but a positive force in the lives of those who genuinely live by the teachings of the Bible."

- Wasn't it the bible that promotes a sexist attitude towards women, especially when taken literally; which baptists tend to do. Also, is this saying that because i'm an atheist that i can't lead a non-alcoholic life or be a good father? And personally, i find droning and blind faith quite unmeaningful and dissatisfying in the first place.


"They think that there are scientific explanations for everything that exclude the necessity for a God.
Response: Biblical teaching does not deny scientific cause and effect but teaches that God, who is the primary cause, works His will via secondary causes. "

- Biblical teaching might not deny scientific cause, but scientific cause denies all religious interference. So this response is farce.

"They think that they can live a good life without the trappings of religion.
Response: Since all people do some wrong, one would have to be God himself to know for certain whether their misdeeds absolutely and unjustly will go unpunished. "

- Why would you want to participate in a religion when, inevitably, you're going to be punished in the end anyway, or at least fear being punished your whole life. Seeings how thats all that religion is, a bunch of scared infidels trying to make you join them so you can be scared of what happens after you're dead with them.

"They are offended by the idea of a God who will judge their lives and have the power to eternally punish them if they do not measure up to His standards.
Response: Atheists seem to think that by dogmatically declaring the non-existence of God, they will have no possibility of being subject to His jurisdiction over their lives. But as it is said, ignorance of the law is no excuse. "

- So religion is law now? And really, an atheist is not at all ignorant to your "laws" which is why he/she is an atheist in the first place.

"Revelation 14:11a

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night.
Hell is a real place and I pray you will be enlightened to see that Jesus Christ is your only hope of escape."

- OMG i'm shitting my pants... i dont even rest now, thats going to really make me a christian, scaring me into it. Hell is probably like school and work. Jesus is for football players who are only good at gym.
- AFTERTHOUGHT .... maybe me and Satan could light up a spliff together.

{edit - spelling and details}
"Salting the back of a snail... My turkish prison is knowing that i fit in...."- Glassjaw

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-13-2003).]

norm
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: [s]underwater[/s] under-snow in Juneau
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 04-14-2003 06:40

WebShaman: when you said -

***************************************************************
"Oh man...it's hard to get started...I'm laughing too hard...I got sent to hell in 4 clicks...hehe."
***************************************************************

it made me stop and think.

According to the Professor teaching Usability & Interface Design this quarter, the average visitor will leave a site if they can't get where they need to go in 3 clicks. So I went back to see how many clicks it would take to get "saved". I gave up after 6 clicks.

With the majority of the visitors giving up before they reach either heaven or hell, it seems like most of us will be forced to remain in this world.

I think that the rule of thumb, when making navigation for an evangelical site, is to ask yourself "Where would Jesus click?"

Slime
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Massachusetts, USA
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-14-2003 07:11

Haha, funny point norm, but of course the site wasn't intended to have "navigation," and in this case, multiple clicks seem to be OK because of the nature of the site.

It seems to me, after a quick glance, that the logic has some holes here and there (that is, it makes assumptions in some cases, or ignores possible arguments).

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-14-2003 11:09

Hehe...'Jesus saves! Just click your way to Heaven, Brother!'

'What??!!?? You're not a Baptist? Burn in Hell, unbeliever!'

'Oh, and while you are down there, I'll pray for you'...not that that will make any difference...

*Somewhere in Hell...'Ok, sinners! Line up for prayer-call! And wipe that silly grin from your face!*

I hope that St. Peter is handing out nose plugs...all that burning has got to smell bad...

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 04-14-2003 14:17
quote:
"Where would Jesus click?"



Oh shit, that's too much. just about spit my coke all over the keyboard.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 04-14-2003 17:28

DL: I told you that you needed one of those plastic covers for your keyboard.

I do think, however, that they've cornered me - I left when i got bored of the site doubting my motives ('So you can't rule God out but you can't rule him in? I think in fact that you don't want to believe in God') but never made it anywhere - is that what Purgatory is like? Clicking around and around with a sceptical website posting messages at you?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-14-2003 17:33

^^^ Lol!!!
*does what DL didn't*

GrythusDraconis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Astral Plane
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 04-14-2003 21:18
quote:
We would love to hear from you. If you need further help on getting saved or have other questions please email us by clicking on the link below. If you have become saved please let us know about it so we can rejoice with you.

Please include your name and full address in your email, if you would. They are not required, however.



Hmmm.... well. After much clicking, and picking the top option all the time without reading it, it appears that I want to be saved. But I need to contact them in order to be sure? How does one BECOME saved? Interesting, biased, funny, and useless.

Thanx... I think.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 04-14-2003 22:01

Most of you know my views on Xianity and such. I am interested in people coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, however someone told me a few years ago that walking up to someone and loudly informing them that they were going to go straight to Hell wasn't exactly the most effective way of getting the Gospel across What I find the most funny, is that according to that page, I'm toast too! LOL!!!

. . : slicePuzzle

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:15

cool link. I clicked a few times, and found some rather interesting lines:

quote:
How could 40 authors from various countries and spanning over 1,500 years write content that is completely self-consistent unless supernaturally guided.

How to have a truly utopian society even if it entails waiting for a while till a great hero can establish it.

How to understand the vexing problems of why men do such evil things to others.



I guess the second point talks about messiah, and how we can wait for him forever.

but I'd like to hear more about the 3rd point, since if it's there and people know about it, how horrible can those things be, and how deeply are they rooted in us that we cannot rid ourselves of them?

Elaborate, Kevin G, if u're still reading this.



Wangenstein
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The year 1881
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:20
quote:
How could 40 authors from various countries and spanning over 1,500 years write content that is completely self-consistent unless supernaturally guided.



Completely self-consistent? True, it does contradict itself consistently. One point for you.

Kevin G
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:25

ok well i am ok with your decisions and stuff and no, im not gonna say, 'ok then i will be laughing when your in hell' or anything like that. i tried but i failed. oh and about the ark dealy. animals ate plants back then. all animals. it says somewhere (n the bible) that a lamb and a lion could dwell toagether or something like that. dont know where though



[This message has been edited by Kevin G (edited 04-15-2003).]

Wangenstein
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The year 1881
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:27
quote:
Do unto others before they do unto you



Nice sentiment for someone who claims to be Christian...

[This message has been edited by Wangenstein (edited 04-15-2003).]

Kevin G
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Insane since: Dec 2002

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:30

okabout my sig, i saw it on a site and i thought it was funny at first. but i will change it.
why do men do evil things? its something called original sin. when adam and eve sinnded (ate the forbiden fruit) that sin was passed on to all men. we are all by nature sinners and are completely opposed to God on our own. any more questions?

i know my spelling atrocious but i dont feel like correcting it.

[This message has been edited by Kevin G (edited 04-15-2003).]

Wangenstein
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The year 1881
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:32

I'm still wondering about the bible as 'completely self-consistent'...

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-15-2003 00:43

So that's ur explanation to

quote:
How to understand the vexing problems of why men do such evil things to others


?????

Original Sin? Ha! I thought the bible tells u how to understand them. The metaphor of original sin, or rather, the apple - has little to do with reality, dont you think...

Lemme back off a little, I do agree there must be some truth in scriptures - but simply telling ppl that Bible is their "manual to life" is a bit too much in my opinion. I might be wrong. If it is the manual, we need another manual, on how to understand its metaphors. Because reading them literary may just hurt the apple commerce.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 04-15-2003 01:35

I know it's a waste of keystrokes but..

I'll just never understand how anyone can accept such pre-fab half-ass answers to such grand questions about life.

Now, I'm always one for simplicity. Simplicity is good. Complete lack of thought is very very bad.

I'm still waiting to hear what it is you've cornered us into here....and how exactly...

"the bible says you'll burn in hell if yo don't do what it says" just doesn't cut it. If we beleived everything we read, we'd be in a heap of trouble

Rinswind 2th
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 04-15-2003 02:49

DL Then the playgirls would be real people.. Steven King the most dangerous man on earth. The earth flat and resting on four eliphants.....



__________________________________________
"Art has to be forgotten. Beauty must be realized."
Piet Mondriaan

Wolfen
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Minnesota
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 04-15-2003 03:56

hehehe, I got sent to hell in 6 clicks....

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-15-2003 04:16

how do u manage to get to hell??? the key is:

Never stop questioning

- Einstein (if I'm not mistaken)

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 04-15-2003 04:48

Wangenstein, the "contradictions" that often brought up are generally either misunderstandings of what's being said or minor mistranslations (often due to numbers). if you look at the overall consistency of scripture it is pretty remarkable.

that being said, i think i might end up in hell based on this one too. at least bugs and i will be able to hang out and discuss theology

chris


KAIROSinteractive

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 04-15-2003 05:00

Well I going to try to post again. I lost it B-4.

I read Kevin's post. Although some I agree with. Parts I don't. Especially the meaning of a Catholic sacrficial mass. He is totally off. I don't see his view on baptism either.

I want to note my Christian view of the afterlife thru throught. Maybe some of you guys have already thought along these lines. I view that God is an entity that is perfect love so how could God punish with vengence or wrath. Vengence & wrath come from evil. I tried to think of how it feels to be so inlove like when your inlove with a person. Totally wonderful being on cloud nine. Wanting to consumate the love and be one with that person thur sexual union. The force of this is so great or maybe for some of you maybe confuse lust with love?? Or maybe the love you have for your children, parents, etc. I think to multiply this love a zillion x zillions of times and freeze it. That love being infinite cannot be measured. So I thought God can't have anything evil near it. To be that close according to scripture would burn us. Toast. So when we die in our state of sin, which we all will have, we can't see God yet. We have to wait till we can be perfected to see God and at this time according to scripture our souls will unite with our bodies. So God being this great and totally super holy can't be mad at you or get a temper tantrum. He comes to us in friendship not to be feared. He is beyond that. He cannot condemn us. It is not in his Godly nature to condemn. God only wants our love that pulls us like magnets. So I thought after we die, we will send ourselves to our own states or planes. Since we at this time will see our imperfections as they are.
Since God lives in each of us & gives us free will, that part of us judges us. And this is thur the second person, the son, Jesus; since this is the only way we know God. So the wrath & vengence is what we bring upon ouselves. I don't think of God as a big scary entity that is waiting to spank our hand when its in the cookie jar. The fear being in ourselves that can do the most damage to our own soul. Its like Christ gave us a green card into the direction we want, but he didn't give us full citizenship by his sacrificing on the cross. Just that he made it possible. God knows we are going to have many desires, snares, curiosities, vanities and temptations. So mercy is available to us even in the afterlife. On the souls who reject Gods grace there may be no salvation and they descend the most lowest plane. They reject God since they knew God not in their mortal life. They continue to reject and become one with the lower plane only going lower and lower until they reach the depths of darkness. Being without hope and despair they rebel and when they were once beautiful now become ugly in their hatred. Wereas the souls that were children of the light ascend to higher planes thur the help of their earthly friends and heavenly friends (saints) in prayer. We know that the devil never sleeps. Satan is up 24/7. So the forces of God are always made available 24/7 too. Satan & Adam fell from grace thur the sin of pride which is the root of evil. So the Godlike pride that some of us have will determine our own destiny. To me this is similar to the story of the fall of the angels in revelation. Since Revelations is a timeless book, it is probalby referring to past, present and what is to come.



silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 04-15-2003 18:59
quote:
when adam and eve sinnded (ate the forbiden fruit) that sin was passed on to all men. we are all by nature sinners and are completely opposed to God on our own. any more questions?



The notion of original sin is debatable. Personally, I don't think we come to this earth with a one-way ticket to hell. I'm pretty sure there isn't any scripture supporting it, but I can't come up with anything against it at this moment so I'll leave it at that.

jade:
I wonder what Egypt thought of God's perfect love not punishing with vengeance and wrath when their first born sons were dying or when all their crops were eaten by locusts.

The OT seems to portray a very different God from the one you're describing. However, I guess God stopped the whole wrath thing once he had a kid.

The consistency of Scripture
Some of the consistency comes from the canon and the fact that hundreds of years ago some people got together and decided what was "Scripture" and what wasn't. However, I believe a lot of it does come from the Grace of God and His inspiration in its creation.

The thing to remember is that this was written by men. They may have been divinely inspired, but they were still human. This is what accounts for the differences in the four Gospels revealed by a synopsis. Each writer was influenced by his culture, his beliefs and his view of the world.

njuice42
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Gig Harbor, WA
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 04-15-2003 20:57
quote:
You may think, "I'm OK. I'll do just fine. I am not such a bad person." Many think that if there is such a thing as a hell that it will only be for people such as Hitler or Charles Manson. But Jesus says to such people:


Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:4)
Jesus is saying, lovingly and truthfully, that not just the really BAD people need to repent & get saved but everyone needs to.



I feel sick...

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

asptamer
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Lair
Insane since: Apr 2003

posted posted 04-15-2003 21:03

They all say that God loves his creatures.
If there is afterlife what kind of hatred does a being have to posess to grant one of his Loved Creatures ETERNAL SUFFERING - which is what bible describes as Hell...

In all due respect to ancient scriptures and believers, I think that Heaven/Hell parts are simply for control of the masses. Media of the ancient times. What better way is there to prevent people from robbing, killing, raping, stealing in a society where there is no law enforcement, than to tell them that if they endulge in the abovementioned "sins" they will spend eternity in torment after they die; and if they lead a righteous life - they will be greeted by 72 virgins, or reach God, every religion prescribes something pleasant to this outcome.

On the other hand, complete inexistance, void, does not make much sense either (altho it's a plausible possibility I think). Reincarnation would be cool, but in a way, eternal life is also suffering. We must be granted Rest at some point, for inexistence is the true bliss.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 04-15-2003 21:18

Silence.

I think we can agree that scripture is full of stories that were written way after the fact by men. If it indeed is fact. Maybe the story of Adam and Eve, Noah & the Ark, Job or Jonah & the whale never really actually happened. Or in the time of Moses also with all those plagues, maybe they weren't really plaugues, but symbolic. Or the wrath of death of the first born happening the way it did. It seems the old testament writers convey the message, be good or god punishes or the reason bad luck befalls you is because you have been bad. Do you think there is a possiblity scripture was written with the intent to convey a message and the way it happened is not so important as what it reveals?

Gilbert Nolander
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Washington DC
Insane since: May 2002

posted posted 04-15-2003 23:25

Thanks, Kevin..

I have been pretty busy lately, but I will check it out later...

norm
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: [s]underwater[/s] under-snow in Juneau
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 04-16-2003 03:31


*******************************************
Oops... I will post this in a new thread.
******************************************

[This message has been edited by norm (edited 04-16-2003).]

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