Topic awaiting preservation: Human?

Is Jesus human?

It was an idea that I was kicking around, and my reasoning was this: He's got a human body, but he's perfect (assuming that you beleive the Bible). In my opinion, their are two things that make a person human: The physical body, and your faults. A perfect entity would have no faults, like Jesus, who would be a personification of God, but he has human form.

I mean, when we finish the research, we will be able to "grow" a human body in a lab, yet would it be human? No. It would need a human "spirit," or life, or whatever. If God came to people as Jesus (which I beleive he did (God=Jesus, with the trinity and all)) then he'd need to present himself with a human body.

I think that the other thing that makes people human is their faults, as I've stated. I mean, if we could replicate perfect AI, that acted like a perfect human (Bibilically/Religiously pure) and stuck it into a fabricated human body, would you consider it human. I think that a human needs to have imperfections to be considered human.

Well, so, would you consider Jesus human? Just wondering.

I think it would be more correct to ask us 'what do we think defines a human being,' because, I'm sure not everyone here is catholic, or even believes such entity (Jesus Christ) existed.

FYI: Only catholics believe that Jesus is God himself. Christian orthodox (greek orthodox) say that he was the Son of God. Big difference. Born to a human (Mary) there was no way Jesus could be Perfect, as you claim him to be.

And I guess the answer to your (my) question, would be that I think that human means to be born from a human mother and be conceived by a human father. Anything else is counterfeit. : )

(Lets pretend for the remainder of this post that I assume that the Bible is true)

Actually, I think that Jesus is God. Look at the trinity, Jesus=God=Holy Spirit. If not God, then pretty damn close, actually, not God, just another manifestation of God. Like me talking under a handle right now, God presented himself in a format that the public would accept.

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And lets add this question, also: What defines a human being?

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On that line, has anyone seen the Matrix short "The Second Renniasance?" I think that this addresses it, with robots with human AI being considered human enough to join the UN.

Actually, "the holy trinity" is Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

What defines a human being? Sounds like another abortion topic.

What defines a human being? Nothing... just like apes, in my opinion. and Jesus might as well be an ape for that respect heh. Thats ok though, cuz i love monkeys and apes and bananas.....

cfb - i think you're view of what makes a human 'human' are slightly flawed - as is all humanity.

God created humans perfect. And He created them with the ability to make decisions for themselves - to choose.

As a human, he was presented with that choice, and chose what was right.

The fact that Jesus was fully human, yet fully God is a pretty huge subject, but hopefully that helps.

Well, then what defines a human?

It's probably appropriate to label Jesus as simply an "avatar". The term refers to the manifestation of Hindu deities in human form. Human, but not quite.

Though I do know that the Judaic beliefs consider Jesus to be completely human, and thus only a prophet of God.

Jes' mah $0.02...



Bodhi - Cell 617

Well, to be orthodox in the Roman Catholci Church, or any major Protestant faith, you have to believe that Jesus was at once fully human and fully divine. It's a paradox; religions aren't bound by the same rules that science is.
If you don't think that Jesus was really human, you're a Docetist; if you don't believe that He was of the same substance as the Father, you're an Arian. (Oversimplification alert.) The Council of Nicaea decided that Jesus had to have been of the same substance as the Father, but also completely human, and all the major Protestant faiths still follow this line.
You can believe whatever you wish, of course. I'm just telling you what I understand the doctrine of the Trinity to be.

it seems strange but ... Jesus=Ghandi

For most Christians I don't think anyone on this planet can fully explain the humanity/divinity of Christ. We can only speculate. Its a mystery. I know God had to assume a human person (Jesus) to be one with us, so we could know who the Creator is, who is perfect. Its hard for non-christians to believe in a perfect human. As there is no role model to judge by other than Christ for believers. Does anyone happen to know a perfected human? Or if a human could possibly achieve human perfection in this world? Most would be skeptical in believing a human could achieve this state. In the Christian way of believing humanity is called to strive to perfection. In the culture of the world today that seems like it is impossible to do. In the Christian way of thinking we were all born imperfected with the stain of sin. It would be up to each Christian individual to be Christlike, which is humanity in its fullness. So Christ being in his humanity is perfect, so us imitating his humanity in its fullness to me is to be fully human.

quote:

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Its hard for non-christians to believe in a perfect human.

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Kind of busy, but I don't really know what you mean by this. I am not a christian,
but I definitaly think it is possible for a human to achieve perfection.
And I definitly believe in a perfect human.


.quotes.

What would you call perfection ? We surely wouldn't have the same preferences. Perfection too is subjective, and therefore it is impossible for the whole mankind to agree on the same values. One can reach perfection, but this perfection would be based on personal criters.

So, Jesus being ultimately perfect ? I don't think so. His perfection is based on religious believes. He is perfect for Christians, but it can't be an universal value, regarding humanity. Being perfect maybe removes him from humanity for Christians, but in my humble opinion, as being human (not perfect) regards humanity, Jesus was for me definitely human.

[This message has been edited by Moon Shadow (edited 06-05-2003).]

GN

I am glad to hear that you believe in human perfection.

I will better explain my post.

In the Christian belief human perfection applies to a individual to do good for love of humanity, not because one is forced to love. In some
minds the belief is that since the Creator made me and all of creation for me, it dictates that I should love the maker because that is what I am taught or what I am suppose to do. I don't think the Creator wants our forced love. The creator gives free will to love and wants us to show our love with the greatest desire. With so much evil in the world today, a believer thru free will can still wholeheartly seek the will of the creator. A pefect love for Christians is to die to self for the love of humanity infinitely without barriers. This involves great acts of love. For Christians, I would say to live for this ideal is seeking perfection. If your belief goes along with this, then there is much in common.

MS.

In your opinion you say Jesus was not a perfect human, but you didn't know him personally when he lived and today you probably don't know him either, spiritually speaking. Christinas draw their knowledge of him thru grace intuitively, who they see perfect within spiritual relationships with him or a desire for the same.

What is your idea of human perfection?

If other Christians can elaborate their point because your view might be different from mine.

My idea of a perfect human, and if you go literally speak via the Bible, would be absent of sin in a Christian sense. This creates extremely gray areas, of course, depending on your interpritation of sin. Physical perfection, Jesus was not, though. In the Bible it says (again, if your going to the Bible) that Jesus wasn't very good looking.

So that means that Evil is also creation of a creator, why should I love creator who created evil?

CFB.

How do you know Jesus wasn't good looking? Why would it really matter?
We know he was middle eastern. So we have to presume he was dark with dark hair. Or could have been black maybe.

Ruski,

In Christian belief, the creator did not create sin. Sin is created out of pride by created beings. The act of sin brings death to the world. Christians believe they live forever without sin. We believe the creator allows sin because a created being chooses it out of free will for the determination of its personal spiritual destiny. Evil acts usually stem from pride or just rooted in the cold heart of some mankind. All evils that premeate the world are because of mankinds acts. Since its a world created for us, we believe we are its caretakers. The more evil measured as a whole, the more tragedies. The more good in it, the better the world will fare. Thats why Christians believe in caring for all as their brothers & sisters, because the evil one does affects us all. I am not saying because one commits an evil act, the Creator will punish. I don't believe the creator who loves would do that, but all the evil energy that prevails in the world brings the negatives like diseases, starvation, disasters, wars, death, etc to some who don't deserve it. But I believe we are the doers. Not the Creator.

Why do persons always blame the Creator for everything bad that happens? It seems so silly to do that. The Creator is the mean one who brings bad things that happen to good people. Its easier to blame the Creator in anger. Like God sent my mother cancer, beacause that was Gods will. No, it wasn't. It was man's will. And when good things happen, the Creator gets no credit.
I believe we as mankind determine mankinds destiny and our planet's destiny by choosing what is good for the common good of persons or by going against what is the common good.

To me, being a perfect human is something that is individualized for every
single human in existence. I feel it has nothing to do with being free of sin,
but instead it involves reaching the full potential of your genetic and spiritual
make-up and always following the powerful pull of your heart.


.quotes.

GN

So you have the same aim & purpose and it all centers around the heart. We are just in different boats trying to cross the same river. Hard as it may be to get across. I think your and my spirtitual creator are one in the same, just that the creator is revealing itself to us in a different ways.

Nope, I dont believe in destiny...well afterall god is all knowing an powerful, he knows even future so that means he knows that evil will happen, why would he let it happen in first place...it must be fun for him to sit and watch us suffer everyday?

haha, human never was perfect, and garden of eden never existed....we developed and evolved from hairy spieces to homosapience to humans we are today...its clearly seen that average hight of human had increased, that we are less hairy and so on....


bibly says everything was perfect before human was created, well it wasn't! there were dinosours and other predators killing and eating others for food, herbivores eating and destroying plants blah blah...everything is natural....and death is natural, there is nothing bad in death...

Nope, I dont believe in destiny...well afterall god is all knowing an powerful, he knows even future so that means he knows that evil will happen, why would he let it happen in first place...it must be fun for him to sit and watch us suffer everyday


Ruski
Some of us believe we cause evil to happen, and for Christians, this is where prayer comes in handy.


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-06-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-06-2003).]

Its so clear and simple...the History of God.
Jews were the first to creat their religeon to believe in one and all powerful god...since they always were slaves and hoped for afterlife or promised land...other religeons believe in many gods...later Arabs and chirtians were inspired and also believed in one and all powerful god....now that christianity spread this big is not because work of god but work of people...they ruthlessly came to others and killed their kids and peoples and their religeon is gone...I dont think think the "loving God" would want his "children" to be killed, would he?

as for humans spreading evil...we are no diffrent than animalswe have our needs....to me there is no good and evil...everything is equal...as ao once said about creation and destruction.

CFB, I don't think being flawed is a requirement for human. Remember that Adam was not created with any flaws whatsoever. The first human was most certainly not flawed and still every bit as human as you or I... as was Christ when He was still with us in that form. I agree with Byron that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine simultaneously, if you're going by biblical teaching. And I'm not aware of any place the bible mentions Jesus' looks one way or the other, got chapter and verse for that?

. . : slicePuzzle

I guess your right Bugs. Well, your reasoning makes sense, but I still don't know. Since God was Jesus's father, and Mary would of been her mother, he would of been a half breed between God and a human. Like, for example, if you bred an ape and a human, IMO, you wouldn't call the result human.

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How do you know Jesus wasn't good looking?

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Jade, I'm not sure where, but I remember somewhere it breifly mentions that he wasn't too handsome. Maybe I should of said, not VERY good looking, or something. Maybe someone that knows the Bible better could point this out, as I am really, really out of time right now.

Jade, everything you see in modern churches..all of it are european ideas and points of views, which doesnt necessarly means true...and virgin mary didnt look nothing like the way she is portrated....as for jesus scientis made a computer version of what possibly jesus looked like, he had this huge nose, he was dark skinned and very though looking guy...completly opposite of curchs idea: light broun/blondish hair , blue eyes, skinny...he was a carpenter for god's sake...

I heard there was controversy over where exactly in the bible it says that Mary was a virgin.

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Sunday Herald - The Bible refers to Mary as a virgin but as it was translated from its original languages some theologians insist that in the original version of the Bible the word 'virgin' simply referred to a 'young girl'.

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There's probably more, but I have to get going.


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Definitely Mary was fully human. The question is was she also a perfect human? She is a role model for Catholics because of her "fiat". Meaning her "yes" to bear the God man.

I was reading about the movie coming out next year "The Passion" by Mel Gibson which will reveal the larger role Mary played in the life of Christ. As the movie is based on the book by Mary Catherine Emmerich, a mystic who had revelations of the real passion of Jesus, it will be interesting. I read the book many years ago and its detailed in the horrors of Christ suffering. My heart was heavy reading that book. I read how in his humaness Jesus wept on this way to calvery and before he was crucified he knelt before his tree of crucifixion and embraced it. Good read even if your a non-believer or not Christian.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-09-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-09-2003).]

Yes, but Mary was only half of Jesus. The othe half was God. It's like two diffrent species breeding together.

Bugs:
Isaiah 53:2b
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

i take this to mean that he was just your average looking joe, but as the old saying goes--beauty is in the eye of the beholder--and some times it takes a blind eye to really see

CFB! I found the passage you're referring to. It's:

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Isaiah 53:2
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

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Ruski, you are quite correct about the appearance of Jesus. We are most used to seeing depictions of Him as a white European but he no doubt looked just like anyone would that lived in the Middle East 2000 years ago. I remember that picture quite well that was done a few years back. In fact, I posted a link to it here in the Asylum back then. I have been looking all over the net for it and can't find it again. I thougt it was very cool. If anyone can find it, please post it here.

[edit] outcydr, you posted as I was typing. Thanks [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 06-09-2003).]

CFB, if you start trying to think about Jesus being half and half like that, it breaks other biblical theology. I'm not saying you shouldn't explore this, please do. I am saying that after centuries of others trying to work this out, it has really come down to what Byron said... 100% both and it is a paradox. It is every bit a paradox as free will versus fate.

Well, this is something to think about for Christians.

We think in our limited way of thinking that we are the first humans created either by the creationist or evolutionary views. But the first human was Jesus. In the divine mind, Jesus is part of the trinity as is, was and always will be outside the realm of time, a human. We were created to be subjects to the perfect human in time. Therefore humanity met us. Humanity is no accident. We are only allowed to be human because the third person is human by his divine nature. So what we are called to attain is to be Christlike, which is humanity in its perfection. We are not human for the sake of being human. Per biblical teaching, we after death will reunite with our bodies in our perfected state. Will we still be considered human at this time?. I wonder.

Hmm.... that is interesting. I don't think of Jesus being eternally human at all. I always figured He became human at a point in time. I'll have ponder that some more. Thanks for bringing that up, jade. BTW, is that an official RC doctrine or your personal view?

Actually ido believe in Jesus but not as God or the Son of God, to me Jesus and Moses and Mohamed are all prophets.
To me God is bigger than Jesus, Moses and Mohamed.
But i still respect people who believe that Jesus is God or son of God.


Shake it

Bugs,

Not RC doctrine that one has to believe in or adhere to.

Just some theology that I have read and don't fully understand and maybe never will. There is so much theology out there that makes me ponder and dig deeper and deeper or confuses me. The humanity/divinity of Christ is such a mystery and I think we can only go as deep as we are allowed. But to seek the knowlege of it is very interesting. This view on Jesus humanity makes sense to me in where I am going with thought. But you never know what else might come up to send my thought in another direction.

The thought is that man was created in Gods image. What is your view on the image? Is it the physical spiritual part of the second person of itself which is the son, who is human and divine & created before time? I was thinking God emptied itself to make the son but this was before creation??? See how confusing.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-09-2003).]