Topic awaiting preservation: the english language

kind of a silly thing:

question: do you english types got a good reason for writing "I" instead of "i"?

For some facts, it is not like that in most languages. I always thought of the english language as being easy, straightfoward and sometimes abrupt, so i can actually picture the reason to be pure antropo-egocentrism (human need to put humans in the center) in action.

A follow up on "the earth on the center of the universe", or "greece is in the center of the world", or "we look like god"? And consequentially one of the things that creates the arrogance and self contained pride that is the widely accepted trademark of british born countries? Or something else?

Hope that was an understandable enough, what do you all think of this?

From: http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhyisi.html

The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology (Wilson, 1988, ISBN
0-8242-0745-9) says: "~I~ pron. 1137 i; later I (about 1250,
in The Story of Genesis and Exodus); developed from the unstressed
form of Old English (about 725) ic singular pronoun of the first
person (nominative case). Modern and Middle English I developed
from earlier i in the stressed position. I came to be written
with a capital letter thereby making it a distinct word and avoiding
misreading handwritten manuscripts. In the northern and midland
dialects of England the capitalized form I appeared about 1250.
In the south of England, where Old English ic early shifted in
pronunciation to ich (by palatalization), the form I did not
become established until the 1700's (although it appears
sporadically before that time)."


J. Stuart J.




[This message has been edited by jstuartj (edited 05-28-2003).]

Mmm. I would definately say that it has far more to do with the English language's akward development than any arrogance of any one group of people.

I'd hardly say you can pin arrogance to "british born" countries....take a look at the rest of the world

It's more a trademark of the human race =)

Haha I agree DL

Arthemis, I know some English-speaking folks that use "i", so I don't think it's bound to the nationality. And personally, I was always thaught by my English teachers to use "I" instead of "i".

Some of us prefer the imperial 'We' to the common "I".

I always thought that the "I" pronoun, referring to the self, was considered to be akin to a proper noun, and therefore should be capitalized as you would someone's name...

But I could be crazy... what jstuartj put in makes perfect sense, as far as the evolution of the english language goes...
We're not egotistical because we speak english, we're egotistical because we're better than everyone else.


Bodhi - Cell 617

It seems to me that the pronoun "I" is like the name you give yourself. It would be silly to walk around speaking of yourself in the third person. I like to think of it as a name. Just as someone would say "Chris is going shopping." In the same turn you say "I am going shopping." In a slight way, it looks as though it is capitalized as though it is a name. I do see everyone is saying though. In French no pronouns are capitalized, and in german, all nouns are in caps. Maybe it had something to do with some king in the past or something. It would an interesting topic to look-up?

see this from norm:

quote:

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Some of us prefer the imperial 'We' to the common "I".

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regarding the pronoun for royalty... He's not just being silly!

Bodhi - Cell 617

quote:

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It would an interesting topic to look-up

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err...

quote:

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From: http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhyisi.html

The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology (Wilson, 1988, ISBN
0-8242-0745-9) says: "~I~ pron. 1137 i; later I (about 1250,
in The Story of Genesis and Exodus); developed from the unstressed
form of Old English (about 725) ic singular pronoun of the first
person (nominative case). Modern and Middle English I developed
from earlier i in the stressed position. I came to be written
with a capital letter thereby making it a distinct word and avoiding
misreading handwritten manuscripts. In the northern and midland
dialects of England the capitalized form I appeared about 1250.
In the south of England, where Old English ic early shifted in
pronunciation to ich (by palatalization), the form I did not
become established until the 1700's (although it appears
sporadically before that time)."


J. Stuart J.

---

=)

And while the 'I' being considered like a name...it should then follow that 'We, He, She, They' etc would also follow suite.

Jstuart's tidbit seems to really explain it about as far as it needs to be really. I'm sure there is more to it, and would be interesting, but that sums it up.

Like bodhi23 said, it is like a proper noun. It is like the proper noun to replace your name. Does it make a big difference if we capitalize it or not. I am sorry for not seeing the definition that was posted above mine. It really shows our Germanic roots.

I'm sorry, Orienos, but I really can't figure out what you're talking about. Of course it matters whether or not we capitalize it--that was the whole point of this thread in the first place.

Pronouns are not proper nouns--yes, they may replace proper nouns, but that doesn't make them proper nouns (or even "like" proper nouns). As DL said, if that were the case, then all the other pronouns would be capitalized as well.

Eh, well, anyway... carry on.

nope, my bad... after much poking around, I only find the above reason for the capitalization. Just to make it into a distinct word. My assumption was based on it being in the first person, but then "we" would also be capitalized. Been a long time since I've studied any grammar.

Now I just feel dumb.


Bodhi - Cell 617

quote:

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Now I just feel dumb.

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Ah, don't feel dumb... that's my job.

Ah, good old etymology! Even so, you must keep a sharp eye out for side events in history. *Someone* has to dictate the rules and label them "universal", even if, time past, it doesn't matter who that someone is (or was).
That someone probably liked the idea of capitalizing "yourself" and wasn't at all opposed to the idea in more than one way. In conclusion you just have to think about language as being just another set of genes.
Nice debate we got going here. Sorry for not keeping up with it, i was somewhere else; been busy trying to get spider webs built on me.

I think that is a very interesting point, Arthemis. I have never noticed that before. I was taught to capitalize it so long ago and never gave it a second thought. I am glad you brought it up and it just goes to show how easily we take things for granted.

I have to agree with DL and MS about arrogance not being limited to the English types in this world. I was learning some Chinese characters with some friends one day and realized the character for China meant "center". I was told this was based in the cultural view of the Chinese that they were the center of knowledge and enlightenment. I hope others here who know far more about Asian culture can confirm or deny that.

I was just curious too, since I'm assuming you're not an English type yourself... to what do you attribute your arrogance?

. . : slicePuzzle

That's not particularly surprising to hear. Nationalism is a pretty big thing. Every country thinks they're better than every other country. It's part of the game. If the particular country you're living in isn't better than every other country in the world - what's to keep the people in that country from emigrating to another country? Countries have to make themselves sound better to keep their population intact.

I can easily see how that idea would carry over into language... (Though I think the capital "I" is used in all English speaking countries? So maybe that doesn't really apply here... Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that point... )



Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 06-19-2003).]

bodhi i must disagree with you ... i think estonia is a fricking dump