Topic awaiting preservation: Faith

quote:

---

Deoxy - There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith in the intrinsic unity and integrity of the universe, in ourselves as integral parts of the whole; that reveals to us the sublime majesty of our universe, and the fluctuant, scintillant, alchemical miracle that is quotidian consciousness.

---

I feel that faith is the major problem with organized religion. Faith lets people become sheep, relying on what others have to say, instead of figuring it out for themselves. Why not jump in, and try out some of the practices that have lead to what so many people are faithful about? Why put your faith into something that you have not tried to understand? Anyway, I just have a problem with faith religions because I feel that they are what leads to the people who are assholes monday thru saturday, yet who are nice and pray to God for one hour on sundays. You know: the guy who rides your ass the whole way to church, rubbing his head and banging the wheel, thinking horrible thoughts about how he would like to kill you, and then when he gets to church, and you both get out of the car, he is all nice and happy to see you.

It's like the other day, I was driving home from work, and I saw this guy with a Jesus sticker on his bumper. Next thing I knew he was cutting this guy off, screaming out his window, calling him an asshole and other profanities. All the guy did was change lanes and slow the guy for a couple of seconds. I just don't understand... I know some Christians, at least the ones locked in the Asylum, are not like this, but it seems all people who follow some sort of nature based religion are more aware of the inter-connectedness of us all, and tend to be more conscious of other peoples actions, and aware of the importance of peacefulness.

Basically, what I am asking is, why are you Christians when the majority of Christians seem to be so un-christian?

And for those non-christians. What are your general opinions of faith based religions?


.quotes.

It seems as if you've touched on two seperated issues here:
1) people can be pricks
2) there is no need for faith (or faith based religion)

Those are two different issues. Perhaps they are related. You haven't shown me the way clearly enough to buy it yet.

Q: Why can people with "Jesus bumper stickers" be pricks?
A: 'cuz they're people
Q: Why do "all people who follow some sort of nature based religion" seem more intuned with peace and inter-connectedness, etc?
A: They aren't. Either you don't know enough of these people, you don't know them well enough, or your perspective is skewed.

In a huge majority of discussions, as soon as you say 'all' or 'none' or any other absolute, you either have a HUGE burden of proof (almost unattainable) or you simply lose credability.

Though not a Christian myself, I would bet that many Christians (especially those who would call themselves 'strong' in their faith) would argue their experience of the Christian God, Holy Spirit, etc is indeed an 'ecstatic experience', they see themselves (or at least their role) as an 'integral part of the whole' of their God's plan, some 'sublime majesty' has indeed been 'revealed' to them through prayer, scripture, or some other holy way.

If you're saying that your 'nature based' religion adheres to this idea of deoxy, you haven't convinced me that it is much different than Christianity on the issue of faith. You may have faith in different things, but you both have faith in something and that is the basis for your philosophy.

To put faith in something that you have tested yourself is different than putting faith in something that you read in a book.

Again, not being a Christian, I feel a little funny speaking for them. Still, I think many would tell you they have 'tested' their faith themselves. This could take the the form of communicating with their deity (prayer), performing some ritual (baptism, communion, etc) or seeing a miracle.

There are some nature worshippers (don't jump too hard on this phrase, please. I'm trying to find an adequate term and this was the best I could do) who would say they see proof of their deity in the beauty of the world around them, the inter-connectedness of an eco-system, the gracefulness of a gazelle or the symmetry of a daisy.

Someone else may look at everyone of those phenomonon and call them mundane. Not proof of a diety at all.

The same goes for many Christians. Perhaps Bugs sees the birth of his daughter as a miracle, a sign of his god's love on this Earth. He may even draw parallels between his love for his daughter and his god's love for him. This experience, very personal and very real, may be a testing and confirmation of his faith.

DL may very well see a human birth as biology and genetics, having nothing at all to do with a diety.

Suho might have prayed for advice or strength or wisdom when he was trying to decide to move to Korea. The fact that he found a beautiful wife, a good job and a home may be just the confirmation he needs to reaffirm or strengthen his faith. He tested his faith (by asking his diety for advice or strength) and was rewarded with a success.

I may see this as self-fulfilling prophecy. Suho wanted to succeed in Korea, so he worked at it and he did. Again, having nothing to do with any sort of divine inspiration or intervention.

Simply put, this hypothetical testing and affirmation of faith I've described isn't different from anything I see in any philosophy. Everybody has any sort of thought about anything has faith in something...even if it is 'simply' their own senses.

quote:

---

Why do "all people who follow some sort of nature based religion" seem more intuned with peace and inter-connectedness, etc?
A: They aren't. Either you don't know enough of these people, you don't know them well enough, or your perspective is skewed.

---

Bingo.

People are people, and any group has its dickheads.

And can we reflect for a moment on the blatant contradiction in this statement:

quote:

---

There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith...

---

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 06-10-2003).]

I guess it is like you say. There are bad sheeps amoungst every flock. I was just worked up this morning that's all. A bunch of traffic. I guess I just blame it on Christianity because that is mostly what our society is made of.

quote:

---

Basically, what I am asking is, why are you Christians when the majority of Christians seem to be so un-christian?

---

It's a fair question, I suppose, and deserves an honest answer. But first I'd like to address something else that you said:

quote:

---

Why put your faith into something that you have not tried to understand?

---

Faith for me does not mean blindly following doctrine. I struggle daily with my faith, and do not always except everything I hear at face value. God gave us intelligence, and I believe He meant for us to use it when it comes to matters of faith. There are, of course, things that I believe that I cannot fully understand, but that does not mean I do not wrestle with these things day by day. It is a severe misconception, both within and without the church (ie, the Christian faith), that faith means being blind and stupid.

Now, why am I a Christian when so many "Christians" are un-Christian? Actually, I think if you truly understood the Christian faith you would not ask this question. For me, the answer is very simple: I am a Christian because this is my personal relationship with God. Does it pain me to see other Christians acting in an un-Christian way? Yes. Are there times when I act in an un-Christian way? Again, yes. I believe mobrul hit the nail on the head when he answered "'cuz they're people." We are all human, and we all err. Becoming a Christian does not mean you suddenly become perfect.

This may sound like an excuse, but it's not--it's just the simple truth. We are all quite capable of being pricks, and we manifest this capacity on a regular basis. Does this mean that the Christian faith is meaningless? After all, if there is no difference in behavior between Christians and non-Christians, what's the point? That is a very good question, and that is what I struggle with every day. Ultimately, though, I can only answer for myself--I have no control over the way others act. I am also in no position to judge others, either. So, while it may pain me to see some of the things that go on among Christians, there is not really much I can do about it but pray for them.

Christians don't worship people--at least we're not supposed to. But every time a famous Christian personality falls, you will see numerous "Christians" losing their faith because of it. Why? Because they were worshipping the person, and that is not true Christianity. The Scriptures say that Christ is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Thus, if we put our trust in him and not in people, there is no reason for our faith to be shaken.

I'm not sure if this is a satisfactory answer, but your question seems fundamentally flawed, at least from where I'm standing. I've done my best to explain what I believe and why, and hopefully that will answer your question.




www.liminality.org

Yuppers.
1111````````````````````````````` <---cat layed on keyboard.
Tired. Read later...
Cig. Bed.sleep....
Dreams.

{edit}Something you may find interesting ---> The Order of Melchizedek{/edit}

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 06-10-2003).]

to put it as short and sweet as possible and to satisfy what you seem to be asking: the original disciples had great faith because they had seen and tested, I am much the same. I read God's Word, put it into practice the best this mortal body will allow, and it works, I have great faith in it because it works, it's real. I have faith in God because His Word speaks, if I listen and do, it works, it's real.

and that's besides the supernatural. A way of living that works, plus the rare supernatural event, a real look at what's behind it all in a way that hardly ever happens, and sans medications, well that's good stuff.

that all sounds kinda flippant, it's not, I'm in a bit of a hurry, GN seems to be losing interest so there it is real personal and quick like

Jason

Look at this delicate plant that lifts its head from the meadow,
See how its leaves all point to the north, as true as the magnet;
It is the compass-flower, that the finger of God has suspended
Here on its fragile stalk, to direct the traveler's journey
Over the sea-like, pathless, limitless waste of the desert.
Such in the soul of man is faith. The blossoms of passion,
Gay and luxuriant flowers, are brighter and fuller of fragrance,
But they beguile us, and lead us astray, and their odor is deadly.
Only this humble plant can guide us here, and hereafter
Crown us with asphodel flowers, that are wet with the dews of nepenthe.

from Evangeline by H. W. Longfellow

quote:

---

JKMabry - I read God's Word, put it into practice the best this mortal body will allow, and it works, I have great faith in it because it works, it's real.

---

Yea. I am the same. Except I sort of do it backwards. I feel something, or think something, or figure something out, or have some strange experience and then I will try and find out more about it. When I was younger, I had a series of strange events take place, and didn't really read about it until I was older, so for years I just thought I was crazy or something, since my parents are not religious. Later, I found out about shamanism, chaos magic, and other interesting things that I just thought were much more applicable than Christianity.


.quotes.

quote:

---

I feel that faith is the major problem with organized religion.

---

One doesn't need religion to have faith any more than one needs faith to have religion. The two are not the same thing.

By my Webster's Unabridged, only one of the nine definitions, #8 BTW, concerns Christian Theology, although #3 and #5 have to do with the belief in God a system of religious belief respectively.

quote:

---

There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith

---

Pardon me, but that one sets off my cognitive dissonance alarm. The line is not internally consistent.

You don't need [this thing] but do this and you get it? Huh? If I don't need it, why should I do this thing?

In any event, if it's Christians you take issue with, remember that a fundemental Christian belief is that only God and Christ can be righteous. Claims of righteousness on the part of persons are simply a manifestation of man's fallibility, as are any thoughts or actions that go against the teachings.

Thus, your Christian road rage twerp isn't being hypocritcal, non-Christian or acting anti-Chrtistian at all. It's simply his innate fallibility showing.

It is precisely because of this belief that TV ministers can get caught with their fingers in the collection plate or their dick where it shouldn't be, yet their flock keeps following, digging deep and sending those checks.

Now just so you don't get the wrong idea GN, my belief system--my faith--is remarkably similar to what you've described yours to be. I don't recall your ever perporting to be perfect, so I assume you have room for error in your life--an acceptance of your own human failings.

Given the interconnectedness of all things and all beings, doesn't it follow that the same acceptance should be granted to the failings of other parts of the interconnected whole that you have granted it to yourself?

And isn't that the very same fundemental Christian belief explained five paragraphs ago?

In my belief system, that's just another confirmation of the intereconnectedness of all things and all beings.

edit: awkward phrasing



[This message has been edited by brucew (edited 06-11-2003).]

quote:

---

Claims of righteousness on the part of persons are simply a manifestation of man's fallibility, as are any thoughts or actions that go against the teachings.

---

Intersting. So therefore you believe that no one can truly understand God but Jesus?

Oh yea. And about that quote in the first post i made. Well, it's just something I was skimming through and thought it was intersting.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 06-11-2003).]

I feel I can best illustrate what I think about "faith based" or indeed any other kind of religion by this quote. Because it is how I try to live my life:

"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and bow to none. When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home".
Tecumseh ? Shawnee (1768-1813)
Tecumseh and the Shawnee Nation

On the suject of faith. I believe most aspects of life require acts of faith, daily. Even somthing like physics.

Taobaybee - I like that quote. I read it at your site. You should get a guestbook at guestbook.com.

Also, I guess I was meaning more along the lines of "Blind Faith" than just faith in general. I was refering to the blind faith that many put into their religions.

Taobaybee - that is indeed a very good quote. And it must have been a very wise person who thought it up.

quote:

---

So therefore you believe that no one can truly understand God but Jesus?

---

Not at all. I'm not Christian. I find antropomorphization of the Universal whole to be much too limiting and egotistical.

antropomorphization?

Um, yea. Ok. Me to.

quote:

---

There is no need for faith...

---

There is no need for food either. Unless you want to live. Faith works exactly the same way.

GN, most people are sheep. It's just another one of those things about life that is always with us. The question is who will lead the sheep and to what end... the choices are life or death. Faith is not the problem but rather a lack of truth. We *all* put our faith in something and I think the crux is how reliable that something is.

quote:

---

Why not jump in, and try out some of the practices that have lead to what so many people are faithful about?

---

I've been trying to do that for quite some time now. So far it's working. I don't know what else to say about that.

quote:

---

Basically, what I am asking is, why are you Christians when the majority of Christians seem to be so un-christian?

---

Thank you for not lumping all of us into the asshole category.

I am not a Xian because there are a lot of people running around calling themselves Xians. What a preposterous idea! I am a Xian because I believe the testimony of the people who wrote the New Testament. There is a difference.

I totally understand that most people are raised to believe what they are taught by their culture and/or parents. Some people are content to accept what they were given at birth and never question. That's fine if what you've been given is close to the truth but really sucks if it's off. That is why it is so critical for people to question *all* the assumptions they make about life and question the foundations of their faith.

GN, I couldn't help but include these words from Christ.

quote:

---

Ask, Seek, Knock
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

---

I seriously believe the promise that anyone who is truly seeking truth *will* find it.

Please understand that Xianity is not about forcing anyone to be good. It is about providing a way to be good. Each person has to *choose* to live according to God's wishes, it is not automatic! That is why you will see the guys on the road doing what you describe. And for that guy on the road, I wonder how much this bit applies to him. Because our actions are evidence of our faith. There is a one to one correlation.

quote:

---

The Narrow and Wide Gates
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

---

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 06-11-2003).]

quote:

---

Bugs - Faith is not the problem but rather a lack of truth.

---

Yea. That is a good point, and the rest of it of course, and everything else that everyone else said.

=

Sorry GN. Typo crept in. I missed several others too.

Should have been "anthropomorphization". The root word is anthropomorphic meaning, "Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena."

"you are the most sorry excuse for an antropomorphic being ever!" (quote Death, probably not entirely correct, when she berates her brother Morpheus - Sandman form Neil Gaiman) I've always loved the word

Ah yes... Neil Gaiman. He'll be making an apperance at this year's San Diego ComicCon. I understand he may even be doing a midnight reading of one of his works. I'm counting the days

I am reminded here of non-believers or judgemental people who view believers as hypocrites.

When I go to Sunday Church, I see some people that I know something personal about. For instance I see a couple that I know, that her husband is having an affair with a lady at his work. Another person, I see, beats up his wife. And another couple, the woman is also having an affair. There is even a guy who I know who dabbles in drugs is attending Mass. The thing is these people are sinners, but I believe church is for sinners. "Who is without sin", I am reminded of Christ's own words, "may he cast the first stone" Christianity is not only for good people, its for people that do bad things too. I view it as they work out their salvation too. At least they do go to church as opposed to not going. In Christ words, he even comes for "the most wretched sinner".



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-12-2003).]

That's a good point Jade. I guess it's people who do bad things that need religion the most.

On another note, I think this quote pretty much sums up what I was trying to get across with this thread.

"Faith is not just believing in words." The Dalai Lama

jade, yes, that is an excellent point. It's still no excuse for people to be rude but it definitely puts things in a better perspective.