Topic awaiting preservation: The After Life

Hey guys, how do u imagine the end of the world:
1- Heaven and Hell.
2- We still got another life and our soul goes to another body.
3- No life after death, we die and thats it.


Shake it

1

So we have the choice between :

1- Christian believes
2- Bhuddist believes
3- Agnosticism

Why not ask what is our religion instead ?

Anyway... 3

The end of the world...when the Sun finally uses up its fuel, and expands...thereby consuming the Earth in fire.

Iam not intrested about yr religion Moon Shadow..
I am talking from a philosophy point of view.

Shake it

3 isn't agnoticism its atheism - my choice (agnosticism) is:

4. Probably 3 but I can't rule out 1 or 2

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

1 & 2

One because I believe we can create our own hells during this lifetime and then we later will have to deal with the consequences in another body, therfore making earth sort of like hell. But earth can be both heaven and hell depending on how you live your life. To some it is hell, to others heaven. But just a form, there is also the afterlife heaven, but I don't really think there is an afterlife hell. It's just us trying to sort things out, and hell is just a perspective as is heaven becuase in reality there is just life. And what we call afterlife is just another phase of our lives. Like a catipilar turning into a butterfly. But sometimes a spider will build its web around the cacoon, and as soon as the butterfly emerges, he gets stuck in web. This would be like hell.


.quotes.

For the record, reincarnation is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist belief.

Also, I notice that the topic title is "the afterlife" but in your question you ask about how we imagine "the end of the world." Those are two very different things. I'm going to assume that the "end of the world" bit was a slip.

As for me, I have to go with Door #1. Do I win anything?

[Edit: Spelling... *sigh*]



www.liminality.org

#2 for me. It used to be number one, until 1995, when I found that I had very clear memories (just short bits and pieces) of being in love and together with the same individual through many lives and many forms.

There is no intellectual basis for my belief, only emotional. But emotion is no less real than intellect, the only thing can say that I believe in with absolute certainty is Love.

For me, I believe my real life begins after death. The life I was meant for. I think of being on a real good high eternally that I never come down from. I hope I make it to that state or whatever it is.

<blink> <blink> So what is this then, Jade? That's awfully metaphysical coming from you.

#2 for me.

No disclaimers or reasons. Just #2.

I find emotion to be far more reliable than intellect myself, norm. Assuming you are true to yourself you can't go wrong.

To keep things simple... I'll go with #1

I go with number one, though sometimes i wonder,ah whats going to happen after we die, is there a life after that! thats why the topic title is the after life..
No one can ever know what happens after we die.. Its a mystery to me and ithink to all of us.. for those of us who chose 1 or 2 or 3, its just choices we decide to choose so we dont panick..

Shake it

to answer the exact question: I can't imagine the end of the world in any other way than (then? grr engrish...)Vogon ships suddenly popping out of nowhere and blow the earth up to make way for a hyperspace bypass.

Afterlife or not? I've no idea. I'll find out when I'm dead. I'm a fan of reincarnation, but only if it isn't limited to humanity and/or earth. I'd like to become a brilliant plan, or a gust of interstellar wind when I'm gone

norm: about love, and this I can't resist because it's a nail in my coffin, love is just like heroine when it hits you hard and leaves you with nothing, and just like weed when it flows into your life and makes it glowy and warm. Either way, it's still a drug. Someone should forbid it. >.<

<blink> <blink> So what is this then, Jade? That's awfully metaphysical coming from you


GD
I think most Christians would agree with me that for us metaphysics is God.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-11-2003).]

Fey:

Love & Heroin, interesting comparision. Plus that would be a great name for a band...but withdrawls from Love last longer than 2 weeks. If it is possible to O.D. on Love, thats the way I want to go out.

Love is the bringer of joy and the bringer of pain. Without those two, one is not truely alive.


I appear to have gotten off topic once again. I guess it is just a character flaw....

So to keep us off topic... why do a couple of the posts above equate the "end of the world" with the destruction of this particular planet? I don't consider the "world" to be earth but rather all of creation.

Bugimus: Then your world must be as big as the universe

Bugs:

quote:

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World:

1. The earth.
2. The universe.
3. The earth with its inhabitants.
4. The inhabitants of the earth; the human race.

-Dictionary.com

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I'm going to go with numver 4, here. I think that the universe (our four dimensions) will continue to co-exist with the dimensions that God lives in. I also think that Hell will be more like the non-Christians just living on earth. Really, I don't think that the Bible says that non-Christians will actually be "cast into a lake of fire," just the Devil and the fallen angles. I think that "non-Christians" will just continue to stay on earth, and the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will be because they finally realized what they "could of had."

--

I think that there should be a fourth option in the poll, which would be Agnosticism, though.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 06-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 06-12-2003).]

#1 for me

quote:

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cfb - I also think that Hell will be more like the non-Christians just living on earth.

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I don't think God cares if you are a Christian or not. I think he cares if you live a good life, are honest and respectful, and strive to become as spiritually advanced as possible. If this whole theory that everyone who is evil is going to be left behind is true, I think there will be plenty of Christians left behind, just like every religion. There are good and bad seeds planted in every religion, God does not care what kind of mask you wear, only what is underneath it.


.quotes.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 06-12-2003).]

There seems to be a grain of truth in all 3 choices.

I can't remember the name, but there is a song on ( if i'm correct ) the Killer album by Alice Cooper that starts with a little kid saying:
"If you're good you'll live forever. If you're bad you'll die when you die."

All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

So the body returns to the elements from which it came, but the spirit returns to Him who gave it, the God of the living, not the dead.

I hope that makes at least a little sense to someone.

GN: I was going by a "Christian" viewpoint. I beleive that theres more than labeling yourself "Christian." I'm sure that plenty of "Christians" will be "left behind."

#2 -- remembers a few past lives... I figure I have a few more to give.

Bugs: Actually, I was pointing out the difference between a single person dying ("what happens when you die?") and everybody dying ("what happens at the end of the world?").

Afterlife:
Nummer Zwei. (2)

I'm definately in the reincarnation boat. I've remembered a few past lives as well...

End of the world:
I think WebShaman summed it up quite succinctly.

Aftelife:

Aren't we all born for the reason to die? What is the average live span today, 65-70? Compared to how old the earth is, thats not alot of years of a life in existance. I am sure we all have a purpose. If ants and bees have a purpose. What is mankinds purpose?



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 06-12-2003).]

quote:

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What is mankinds purpose?

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Um, to populate the Asylum?

quote:

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Aren't we all born for the reason to die?

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Hmmm... call me quirky, but I kinda thought we are born for the reason to live... If we're born just to turn around and die, it kinda misses the point, don't you think?

MD

Well, could we agree on the way we live may determine our afterlife?
Do we live to achieve a means? And the means being a beautiful eternal life after a physical death?

Well, wouldn't you agree with me that as long as we don't know, and we probably won't find out before we've died, that we could do our best to make ourselves and our surroundings as comfotable as possible? And no, I don't neccesarily mean material comfort, but also just being nice and helpful and avoid or smoothen irritation and the lot.

Jade-
I believe that what we do during our lives can have an impact on what happens after we die. I happen to believe in reincarnation. I believe that each life lived is a different learning experience. I don't believe in karma, per se, but I do believe that if you are not so nice in one life things may not work out so well in the next. (It is related to the Three Fold Law that was mentioned in the Wicca thread a little while back.) I don't believe in looking towards what happens after I die, because in doing so it prevents me from living this life the best that I can. I prefer to be kind to others, and lead a decent life simply because it is the right thing to do. Not because I will be rewarded for doing so. If life is lived solely for the reward at the end, were any truly selfless acts committed? Was that life lived to serve others, or simply to serve oneself in the hopes of gaining eternal bliss?
I have a difficult time with the concept of being told "Now if you do everything I say, you will be happy for the rest of eternity." To me, that smacks an awful lot like bribery. I know that humans tend to be driven towards rewards. It is much easier to convince humans to be nice to one another if there is a reward involved. I believe it to be much more challenging and much more meaningful to be expected to make those choices on my own, with no reward offered and no reward expected.

Moon Dancer, as soon as you accept the Three Fold Law as binding, how is having the God of the bible saying that living by His guidelines leading to a happier existence any more or less of a carrot on a stick than traditional views of Karma and good behavior leading to ultimate fulfillment? If you think you are "punished" in the next life for bad behavior done in the present one then it seems to me it's just another form of "bribery" and "punishment" you said you have a hard time with.

On your larger topic I have some comments. I have to ask why being rewarded for good behavior and doing that good behavior on the basis of love demonstrated to us by God for our fellow humans have to be mutually exclusive? I believe that we are called to love others because He first loved us *and* we will be rewarded too.

Personally, I can't fathom why anyone would want to do good unless there were benefits. Can you explain how you see that? Doesn't the idea of your actions being validated by an ultimate authority on the matter make far more sense than a system where you can do good or do bad with no particular difference in the long run?

Those are comments and questions and ramblings all smunched into one Good topic!

Well, doing positive things do have benefits, in and of themselves. First of all, those to oneself (well, for me, anyway). Doing posititive things helps reinforce that which is positive within myself. This I find important for my own self-being. Second, putting positive energy into a system gets positive results out...though they may not be readily see-able, or noticeable, they are there.

I don't see why being positive, and doing positive things has to have any other 'benefits' than this. Isn't that enough?

Enough for what?

....and what if we are already dead?

Bugs, enough reason to be doing positive things. By realising that positive actions and thoughts do have benefits, one does not need to have a higher being 'recognizing' them...it's enough that one knows.

Bugs- Sorry it took me so long to reply. As to the Three Fold Law, I don't accept it as binding. (That's why I said 'related to' in my previous post.) I see it as a guideline basically stating that what you do has consequences. Both good and bad. If you do something bad, you should expect the potential for something unfavorable happening to you. If you steal- you may not get caught- but if you do, there is a consequence. Likewise for doing good things in life. If you find someone's wallet with $500 cash and you do the honest thing and return it- the owner may completly blow it off- or he may give you a reward for your honesty. I don't expect reward or punishment for anything that I do. I accept the potentiality for consequence.

How this relates to my view of the afterlife is this: As I've said before, I see each life as a learning experience. If I choose in this life to be an arrogant, oppressive human that brings harm to others and only takes and never gives, I may in the next life (or several down the road) be on the receiving end of such a person. This is what I was alluding to in my previous post. I don't see being on the receiving end of such treatment as a punishment. I see it as a tool for learning. But, just as with my stealing example- there may be no consequence at all.

As for doing good without benefits? I don't expect to ever be rewarded for the good things that I do in life. Sure, it's nice to be recognized and all, but I certainly don't expect it. The wallet scenario above; that actually did happen to me. I didn't expect the owner to give me a cash reward for returning it. Just knowing that I had eased the owners mind, and restored a little faith in humanity for this one person was good enough for me. To me, the deed just wouldn't have been the same if I had gone to the owner thinking, "Maybe I'll get some of that cash as a reward..."

Validation by an ultimate authority is not necessary in my view because I believe humanity is capable of doing the right thing without expectation for reward. Doing good or bad deeds do make a difference in the long run. They matter most to the people on the recieving end. Being conscious of the impact my actions have on others is enough validation for me.

As an example, say in your faith that you only needed to do a certain number of good deeds to go to Heaven, and that by doing so no matter what awful things you did afterward wouldn't matter because you were guaranteed entrance. As you are walking down the road one day, you see a driver going down the road at a crazy speed. He tosses a beer bottle out the window just as he drives by. You see the intersection ahead, the driver narrowly misses another car, but crashes into a tree. You are medically trained (for the sake of the hypothetical here) and you know that the driver has probably suffered serious injuries. Now, this driver could be a repeat offender- could potentially kill someone in the future by his actions. You know that you could simply ignore the accident and walk away because there would be no consequence if you did. The driver could die-you could save him, but there is no recognition from an Ultimate Authority for saving him. Would you walk away? Is that promise of reward so driving that if it were no longer an issue, you would not do a good deed? On the flip side, if you knew there would be no consequence from an Ultimate Authority for doing bad things because you were guaranteed a place in Heaven- would you cause harm to others just because you could? (by the way, I don't mean for any of this to come off as attacking you or your faith... this is merely an example that I think maybe shows my perspective a little differently...)


<edit- an apostrophe tapped me on the shoulder and said, "You forgot me!">

[This message has been edited by Moon Dancer (edited 06-15-2003).]

quote:

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As for doing good without benefits? I don't expect to ever be rewarded for the good things that I do in life.
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Validation by an ultimate authority is not necessary in my view because I believe humanity is capable of doing the right thing without expectation for reward.

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aren't you just being your own ultimate authority (god) here?--rewarding yourself for what you consider to be good and righteous?

outcyder-
I suppose in a sense I am being an ultimate authority in that I hold myself accountable for my actions. Could you clarify how I am rewarding myself?

do i really need to say it?............feeling good about yourself within yourself.

i dare say you would call it self-esteem. some might call it self-pride, or self-righteous, but it's totally up to you how you call it. i know; it's really a struggle to get outside of (outcydr haha) yourself (operative word: self). maybe that's why we're here (in asylum) and getting off topic. my thoughts are drifting elsewhere. sorry.

If being able to live with myself is a reward- then I think i can see where you are coming from...
Perhaps to clarify- I feel that I don't need an external/supernatural entity to give/grant something to me convince me to behave appropriately. (I sense a giant can opener hovering above a tin container marked "Worms")

off topic? what topic?

Hey guys, cant we have a poll here?

Shake it

Self? Who is that?

I AM that I AM is all that I AM

And I eats my spinach every day.

TooT! TooT!

who needs afterlife when you have life?
life is a gift live it! do everything that makes you happy! dont waste your preciouse time talking about some afterlife or whatever its totaly pointless what you believe in. when you die you will find out...but right now just get a life

hmm, this is selfish..when im down ithink like you ruski, i live like there is no tomorrow and its great fun.. but sometimes i wonder and whats next?

Shake it

so stop wondering, go lear some advanced math or some chemistry! forget the magic..its only in LOTR...and there is no jedy firce ......just go shake your ass at some parties and relax

You got a narrow mind.

Shake it

Only 4 choices..? I guess I'll choose 5, which is some parts of I. and 2. but with some heavy modifications...

...xpi...

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 07-01-2003).]

And what about... Humanists.

Why does the primitive side of our brain, even in our time of enlightenment still need to explain things with magic? For thousands of years we have suppressed and retarded ourselves. We had to be part of, or recognized by something. We created classes and then classified ourselves. We had to have answers to things we didn't understand. And... in those days we had no way of investigating what we didn't understand. So we believed someone who we were told could be trusted to explain things to us. Usually that someone, at a time when they needed answers, was told to listen to someone else that allegedly was trust worthy.

Other times when we needed answers and didn't like what we were told, we searched and searched until finally we liked what we heard. Then we passed it on. We became the ones to tell others who needed answers, who could be trusted to answer them. We were lead to or happened across our religions.

Science is an ever changing, ever expanding, almost living thing. Yet some religions use the theory of the moment to knock down the entire body. In the world of science ?Today?s? theory is either proven later or adapts to the newer version based on newer facts. Science itself in the end is the doctrine of a science mind not the theory.

Other religions use the science of archeology to try to verify their beliefs. But showing that a place existed does not mean the events said to occur actually occurred. I had friends that went to Europe and when they came back they said they never saw litter in the street. Not one piece of paper. So just because Europe exists I should believe litter there does not?

"Witness" is used by most religions to verify their doctrines. Yet no one has witnessed anything in our time. So why is "witness" or testimony as in testament still a means of verification? I don't know. Only the primitive mind can answer that.

I do know this. Witnesses have jailed many innocent people with their testimony, who where only freed later by a science known as DNA. I also have seen people claim to "witness" things for their 15 minutes of fame.

Science started out as a way to explain things so we don not need the fallible witness system. If it can be repeated under controlled conditions... Then it is so. Religions jailed and executed our earliest scientists because it threatened their faith system based solely on whiteness. This is why out of the tens of thousands of years of our existence science and medicine have only flourished for roughly 600 years. Most advancement only in the past 150 years. Think of the diseases and other human issues we could have resolved if we embraced science earlier.

It is a shame we are separated by our different beliefs... religious and political (which are usually religious based).

As a Humanist we all benefit.

Thank gravity I'm here

BINGO!

*kneels to Sander*

Bingo.....


as I said there is no point of wondering about those things...just live your freaking life and study.

ohh and dont forget that jews created God, which christians worship nowdays.

(Judaism-why does this shit always happens to us?)

Good arguments Sander, but i did find some slightly flaws =P

quote:

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Why does the primitive side of our brain, even in our time of enlightenment still need to explain things with magic?

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Because science (in a formal procedure) did not existed. We always needed some way to explain the things/circumstances around us, and how could you accurately describe what water is without having the precise concept of elements and atoms?

quote:

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I do know this. Witnesses have jailed many innocent people with their testimony, who where only freed later by a science known as DNA.

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Not necesarily. DNA is a resource (criminal investigation wise), not even a science (you are talkin about genetics), and they did not necesarily tell in a suspicious is guilty or not, specially when the suspicious could have been in the crime scene and somehow dropped hair over the victim, or the criminal was very smart and made sure he did not left a genetic clue he was the murder.

quote:

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Science started out as a way to explain things so we don not need the fallible witness system. If it can be repeated under controlled conditions... Then it is so. Religions jailed and executed our earliest scientists because it threatened their faith system based solely on whiteness. This is why out of the tens of thousands of years of our existence science and medicine have only flourished for roughly 600 years. Most advancement only in the past 150 years. Think of the diseases and other human issues we could have resolved if we embraced science earlier.

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There is a science known as history that tell us that we should learnt of the msitakes from the past to not commit them again. Whats done is done.

*re-quote*

quote:

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Science started out as a way to explain things so we don not need the fallible witness system. If it can be repeated under controlled conditions... Then it is so.

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There is a science known as sociology that tell us not everything can be repeated under the same conditions. Human behavior and stuff can be more or less predicted, not declared.

quote:

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It is a shame we are separated by our different beliefs... religious and political (which are usually religious based).

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Not really. We are firstly separated by distances, which are broken thanks to internet ;P. But if you are talkin about the entire globe, well, political beliefs are not necesaril influenced by religion. Both Mexico and US are mostly Christian nations, and we are severely spearated by political factors. The war in Irak was a good example, US wanted to go to war, mexico didnt, which affected a lot of the political relationships between the mentioned countries.

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As a Humanist we all benefit.

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?

"Da da da I dont love you, you dont love me da da da." =P

quote:

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Thank gravity I'm here

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*curses gravity for letting Sander being here* j/k you seem cool.

Going back to topic:

About afterlife
I am not really fond to give an accurate decision (i change it every three days ;P), but for now i pick reincarnation. Lately i have had some kind of nostalgia, and really have had the desire of having a daughter (when I am 18 and dont even have a gf), and everytime i see master card announcement with a guy who decided to pass his weekend with his daughter, both of them laughing and having lots of fun, i really want to be that guy, and almost make me cry. There are some despot nature in me as well, most people called me in my childhood ver very arrogant.

About End of t3h w0rld
A big gigantic [sic] hand will appear from nowhgere and will crush the earth with badass divine glory.

-Alevice

ps. Ruski, i do really enjoy my life, i do know how sort can it be, but sitting here around 15 mins thinking about what could happen when i die does not hurt.

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