Topic awaiting preservation: Doing Jesus (Page 3 of 3)

There cannot be a grey area here CFB. You insist on attaching the qualifier,willing to change. Where is it written that god's forgiveness is conditional.

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Well, thats a grey area isn't it. In general, the Christians that I see really don't do that. The Bible (I hate saying that: "The Bible says...")

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I say again: If you do not beleive without question that jesus grants absolute and unconditional foregiveness regardless of the sin...or sinner... you must rethink your position as a xian. This is the Faithpart of reliqion. And I'm not even getting into the 'fundamentalist' side of xianity...we're talking the VERY basics here.

You can however at any time.. or as Jade says 'over and over again' or upon your death bed ask forgiveness: '...jesus please forgive me for that time in my life where I beleived your forgiveness was conditional. I realize now that I was wrong and that it is you alone who can grant forgiveness.'

Pooof! You're in... havin' a nosh with that pervert and his killer.




[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

Sorry to interrupt a fine discussion, but in relation to the "Jailhouse Conversions" aforementioned, I thought y'all might find this interesting...

InnerChange Freedom Initiative

^Interesting read.

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Probably no one was actually lying; they were just believing, and repeating as fact, what they wanted to believe.

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There's that damn word again '....wanted.'


=)

I really hate to agree with the christians here, but I do. I don't see a flaw in asking for redemption.

Asking forgiveness from God is a momentary thing. For instance, if I commit a crime, like murder, and I am truely sorry for my sin, then I repent and I am forgiven. Now, wether I commit another crime is out of the control of God. So say I kill once again and feel truely sorry, I can repent and be forgiven. God's decision to forgive does not lie with what he/she feels you might do in the future, but how you feel and act in the moment. God can't see into the future, or else the road to redemption would be pointless, and our path to heaven or hell would be already paved, and without an exit. So it is safe to assume that everytime we ask for forgiveness, God gives us the benefit of the doubt that this is the last of our sinning. And if we ask for forgiveness with the intention to continue our wrongdoing, then we are not forgiven on the basis that we weren't sincere.

ahh crap, Im starting to sound all jesus loving. kill me...

PS From experience, it is very difficult to argue against religion, because their boundaries are infinantly adjustable. It's like playing poker against a table full of conartists. While you are playing with the rules, they have the ability to defy reality with the help of a little something called cheating. God cheats reality and logic, so as long as we use logic to disarm him we will fail. So thus there is no way to win.

(((IN STEREO))) the Peter.Pansy way

Mr.Pansy... Peter if I may. =) (quick... someone slap me with a cold fish}

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I really hate to agree with the christians here, but I do. I don't see a flaw in asking for redemption.

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ok... I'm a little confused here. Help me out a bit.

you don't see a flaw in asking for redemption and you hate to agree with the xian's here. As opposed to what...xian's elsewhere???... or are you not a xian. Redemption is reserved for xians and if you are xian what's to hate?

I'm not sure I'm actually trying to win anything or anyone over, that in itself would be preaching. =)

[This message has been edited * edited & edited and re-thought so many times by NoJive that he just may go to bed now. (edited 08-09-2003).]

[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 08-09-2003).]

quote-To you it may be half-assed but all god hears is 'please forgive me' ..at least I haven't yet met a xian who's told me he knows of a case where jesus said...' naaa sorry buddy that was too much even for me.'

i guess you never met a "real" christian

come on you guys - you all talk about God like he was some gullible hall monitor at school




[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 08-09-2003).]

peterpansy:

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wether I commit another crime is out of the control of God

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...thats not much of a god you have...

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i guess you never met a "real" christian

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You missed something here Outcyder because what you are saying is that you do in fact know a 'real'xian who do indeed knows of a case or cases where jesus refused to grant forgiveness...or had conditions attached to that forgiveness. And you didn't mean to say that at all ... did you. =)


As for talking about god like he was some gullible hall monitor...well none of the xians posting are saying that. And for those of us who have no faith well we kinda figure god and
that hall monitor are on equal footing.Maybe one even moonlights as the other... who knows. That's very upsetting for 'some' xians'... not so much for others and with the exception of the initial joke posted by Insider that's what this thread is all about. Believers and not. You are I'm not.

And so just what was it that you 'meant' to say? =)

ahh forgiveness.. as a friend of mine once pointed out, just because god has the ability/option to forgive doesn't mean he *has* to exercise that option.

if he(god) didn't have that option, what good would it do for ministers/priests to frighten their sheep into doing what (in their view) is right?

[edit - rephrase]

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 08-09-2003).]

Come on you guys. Have you ever truly forgiven a wrong someone has commited against you. You are upset and thought your friend betrayed you and he or she comes to you to ask forgiveness. Are you going to deny them if they are on their hands and knees with tears of sorrow begging you for forgiveness? Haven't you ever felt your heart melt with compassion and you forget the wrongdoing and start over as friends again. Same concept with Jesus who is a friend/mother/father/sister/brother, etc. It feels good to forgive and be forgiven. Forgiveness happens to all everyday thousands of times as the world turns. Compassion is such a heartfelt emotion. To Christians, thats Jesus loving thur mankind.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-09-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-09-2003).]

Ok, a whole bunch of you seem to be missing a major point here, repeatedly.

There is a difference betweeen doing wrong, and then being forgiven, and constantly doing wrong because you rely on the fact that at any point you can drop into confession, be "sorry" and and be forgiven.

*That* is the problem that is so prevelent and that undermines the legitimate purpose and action of 'forgiveness'.

And it's not a question of whether god actually forgives these people or not - it's not about god, it's about people having the audacity to say that it doesn't matter what they've done, becuase they "know" that god has forgiven them. It's about people creating an easy way to escape their wrongdoings.

Why is eveyone so concerned about getting their forgiveness from god here on earth? If forgiveness is for god, then great. When you get to heaven he can forgive you. While you're here on earth, you can deal with the consequences of your actions.

And yes Jade, I have forgiven people, and my actions have been forgiven - by the people who those actions effected. Not from some imaginary 3rd party....

Ok DL

I did want to point out because I did forget to mention and I think other Christians hopefully agree with me that there is a great sin called the "Sin of Presumption" This means you do a wrong act knowing God is going to forgive you. You take advantage of the mercy of God. For example, if a person decides to commit adultery tommorow, and afterwards will ask God to forgive him and feels assured a heavenly place in God's kindgom. We presume on Gods forgiveness instead of asking & hoping for it. This is different from persons that fall into a sinful life and repeatedly do it over and over again and then feels distance from God because they feel so unworthy that they cannot come back to God. These are two different intents in the minds of the sinners. God is forgiving, but we don't want to take advantage of his love for us. The only sin you cannot be forgiven for is denial of the Holy Spirit. This is unpardonable per scripture.

Ok, and, once again - I know this.

But we are talking, again, about the difference between theory and application.

That might be the way scripture says it works, but vast hordes of christians do not act in that way.

Yes. Your right. We can agree that lots of Christians don't act the way they should if they profess to be followers of Jesus. But I wonder if you have ever met one who did.

nope I never did......just a bunch of fanatics, thats about it.

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Galatians Chp. 6, V. 7

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

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I think that this says what I've been trying to say: God knows when your sincere, and when your not. If your not sincere about your wanting forgivness, then god knows it, and why should he be sincere about forgiving you?

Yes, I have.


On a more relevant note -

~turns to brick wall - 'hi, how are ya?'~



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 08-10-2003).]

Brick wall says, "Hi DL! I'm peachy... how are you?"

my cable connection is down and time warner has shown absolutely amazing incompetence, i apologize for the late response first off, jdauie, i think that comment was based on the idea of us having free will, not God's inability to do something.

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How many people ahve you seen who once on death row all of a sudden miraculously 'find god'?

And then think they no longer deserve to be put to death because of it?

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this actually illustrates the exact opposite of what i'm talking about. several years ago there was a woman in texas who became a christian while on death row, she had murdered someone (don't remember the specifics). in an interview she mentioned that altho she was sorry for what she had done and believed she had been forgiven, she realized that there were consequences to her actions that she had to face. that's a person who understood the foundation of christianity that we seem to be missing here.

what i'm hearing is that people have a problem with someone guilty of a heinous crime suddenly saying "i'm sorry God, i believe in jesus, please forgive me" and everything being ok, then a similar crime is repeated and forgiveness is repeated (or a person confesses faith in christ then proceeds to commit said heinous act then ask forgiveness). what's being missed is that true faith in christ is a transforming process, if you've actually become a christian your heart and mind are changed (like my example of the teen mentioned above). simply repeating a prayer with no heart behind it means nothing, it becomes just words. if a person supposedly becomes a christian then continues on in a lifestyle or committing acts totally contrary to christianity i'd question whether they were truly saved or simply trying to cover their a$$.

one of the big problems i see with the western church is the frequency with which the term "christian" is bantered about. people who attend church occasionally, grew up going on sundays, or sort've believe in God consider themselves christian, and imo that couldn't be farther from the truth. in acts we read the term "the Way" applied to those making up the early church, literally the same term christ applied to himself, the path to heaven. "believers" is also used a number of times in acts, those that believed in christ's resurrection and accepted him as their savior and the son of God. both these terms imply action, an active state of believing or doing, a "way" or method of achieving something. christianity isn't passive, its an active faith, something that many with the 2-car garage and 2.5 kids seem to have missed.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Fig

I agree with your post.

I wonder if your speaking of Carla Fay Tucker that got lethal injection for the pic axe murder. I, myself feel strongly against capital punishment. A society, to me that believes in killing for killing like a revenge is not the answer. It says, "Yeah, we will kill you if you kill". Its just telling society killing is OK because the state believes in it. And also I disagree with having the families watch the person die, like to get some satisfaction as a death for a death, you deserve to die. The families themselves want revenge, which is so wrong. I don't understand the peace and closure they get when the murderer is dead too. Like now my life can go on now that my son's murderer is dead too. I don't think Christ would want us to have this revenge in our hearts.

I figure living Carla could of worked out her salvation, but it was cut short. Just knowing she commited a crime so horrible under the influence of drugs and living with it was suffering enough. If she was truly sorry for what she did, I think God would not abandon her. Only God knows what was in her heart and if she had true contrition for her action, why couldn't she attain a paradise, like someone who never commited a crime. I know she should be judged for punishment for the crime and go to prision, but in the state killing her, their purpose was to send a message out as a deterrant. Like, see what happens to you when you kill. It never has worked.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 08-10-2003).]

And with the advent of the 100th post for this topic...I'm closing it to start a new one...and here it is:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000976.html