Topic awaiting preservation: Illegal Software

I am raising this discussion so that people can air thier views in one place and one place only.

The software in question is Photoshop. Now i am not asking people to tell us if they have or have not got an illegal copy, but rather ask the question " Is it OK to have an illegal copy ? ".

Now personally, i think that without illegal copies being used, a rather large amount of people would never have gotten into digital graphics in the first place. I am aware that you can download a trial version from Adobe's site, but 30 days is nowhere near long enough to get to grips with the program and justify the fee for the original. I remember years ago when CD burners first came out the pirate scene was more or less underground and release groups used to put out CD's and Photoshop was more or less always included in the compilations. I personally think that Adobe have made more money as a result of the illegal copies than they would have if people had not tried them, because when people like something enough, they will support the software company, and if not, they should do.

Now i am not asking people to stand up and admit it, but i myself have used an illegal copy in the past, but i am also proud to own an original copy, and if i am honest with you, it was some of the ozones members that influenced me to part with my hard earned cash and get a copy.

Thats all i got to say right now, but i would be interested in your views on the topic.

The official position:

:FAQ: What is the Asylum policy on warez/illegal software?

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Thanks for the link Emps, but i was after personal views rather than ozones official rules , but i can see from the archives that this subject has been brought before, so i appologise for that. Reading through what people have said in the past is very interesting and seems to have covered most moral and legal aspects.



Edit - Adding to post

[This message has been edited by axleclarkeuk (edited 09-06-2003).]

Students like me don't have enough money to buy softwares that cost more than 500 euros. It is as simple as that. So, how should we do to practise graphical arts ?

Most of the people I know are lucky and can have those softwares by other means (installing the copy used in the computer company of their fathers for example), and so did I. I am well aware of the fact that it isn't very legal, that Adobe products shouldn't be 'stolen' etc etc. But this reminds me another thing. About music and video games... I'm sure everybody knows or already heard a big company whine and complain about the financial loss caused by CD-burners. But surprisingly, these companies don't complain when it comes to sell CD burners and CD-R... Don't worry, they know how to earn enough money. If they were going bankrupcy, we would hear it.

About Adobe, I think it is a bit the same. There are surely thousands of illegal copies of Photoshop, but in the end, they get their money. If these copies didn't exist, thousands of people wouldn't have known Photoshop, wouldn't have used it, wouldn't have made of it a standard. And if people like the software, as axleclarkeuk said it, they buy it, when they have enough money. Haven't you ever been copied a music CD and, after admitting it was great quality, finally bought it to show your support ? It is a bit the same for Photoshop, on another scale because it is very expensive. Photoshop is an excellent software, I used it a lot, and I will use it a lot in the future, therfore I know that when I'll work, I'll buy it. I consider using it now as an advance on a future payment...

Now, it is probable that a lot of people use Photoshop and will never consider buying it. They're humans you know. *sigh*



[This message has been edited by Moon Shadow (edited 09-06-2003).]

I still strongly believe that this is not the appropriate forum (if there actually is such a thing) for this topic.
Plus, the Doc always has been against discussing this.

Therefore Closed.

PS: There usually are student versions.

Well I'll reopen it.

There is nothing wrong with discussing the problem of software piracy as long as it isn't promoted or people don't actually ask for software or other illegal things so (in my opinion) the discussion can carry on. Yes it has been discussed in the past but there are always new people through the door with new ideas and opinions so.....

And yes MS you can get greatly reduced costs copies of an awful lot of software.

[edit: This thread touches on student versions:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum3/HTML/003668.html

although as TP points out it is for learning purposes only so no commercial work now]

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Tyberius Prime - If you read the link i posted above, you can clearly see that DOC amongst others has a lot ot say on the subject and i totally agree with all that is said.

Personally I think that prices would drop if piracy wasn't so rampant. If I didn't have to pay for your copy as well as mine it would be cheaper. so when you want to pay for your copy feel free to send a check my way to pay me back for having to help support that programers and everyone else involved in creating the product.

I was on another board where a person openly admited to downloading the program from Kazaa and I decided to check into reporting them for piracy. However I was disappointed to notice that Adobe (and other graphical superpowers) only have ways to report sites distributing serials, programs, etc or businesses using the program illegally.

And the student versions are cheaper as is buying it in a boxed set. (the design set is an excellent choice that I strongly recommend) and if your studying it as a student chances are your going to do it professionally (or be a failure and as I get told "get a real job") and part of learning it is learning to sacrifice to pay for it. You can't make money without spending some. (and if you try theres a good chance you'll get screwed)

well, I still don't believe it's smart to admit breaking any law in a public forum. but it's your butt.
Just remember, everyone can read the asylum, and much of it is archived for years to come.


oh, and I don't see any links you posted axleclarkeuk, did you happent to forget including it ;-).
(edit: ok, seeing the link now.)

I'll close quoting the doc (additional emphasis mine) (from the faq emperor refered to in his first post):

quote:

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[stern voice]Warez are BAD for the industry, software really should be paid for.[/stern voice]

I really belive this. However, if somebody really is starting out and hasn't the money, I'd not condemn anyone for doing what they have to do, using what they have to use. It really is in all of our best interests to not post such informations here in the forum, though! Please restrict any such referals to email, if you please!

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hear his wish, decide yourself.
so long,
TP

[This message has been edited by Tyberius Prime (edited 09-06-2003).]

And we do need to bear this in mind:

quote:

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well, I still don't believe it's smart to admit breaking any law in a public forum. but it's your butt.

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I was just reading how someone has been sacked and someone else arrested thanks to their postings on Friends Reunited so just remember you aren't anonymous unless you go to great lengths. I think there was a discussion about the kind of circumstances where the Doc would hand over your IP to the authorities - just don't put him in a position where he'd be made to do that!!

quote:

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Just remember, everyone can read the asylum, and much of it is archived for years to come.

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Another good point - it might not be too important to you now but what if a future employer did a quick background check on you and turned up post by you admitting to illegal activity?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Allow me to quote directly from the DOC himself

quote:

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Back in 1992-93 (date?) I got my hands on a copy of Phosohop 2.0, a complete pirated version, fit on a floppy disk! I thought it was a cool little app, and played with it.

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Now if he were worried about the consequences, i think he would have removed a few things on this board. I'm not trying to be funny, but we are talking about Photoshop, not warez in general. I didnt want a discussion about the whys and what fors of warez in general, heaven knows that if you look into the majority of computers these days you will find numerous programs and music that should have been paid for.

Do you honestly think someone is going to get arrested for admitting to using an illegal version of PS in the PAST ? I can just se the headlines now !

Lets not get carried away here.

Axle:

quote:

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Do you honestly think someone is going to get arrested for admitting to using an illegal version of PS in the PAST ? I can just se the headlines now !

Lets not get carried away here.

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I was talking in more general terms than just this discussion (e.g. I said something similar in a recent drugs thread) - it might just make someone think twice before doing something they may regret (the Internet is yet young - I'm waiting for the time when a presidential candidate's chances are ruined by admitting in some forum they molested dogs a few deaces earlier) - who knows?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

quote:

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admitting in some forum they molested dogs

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Do you know something you should share with the rest of us ? lol

I think the use of Pirated PS versions by newbies and hobbyists helps Adobe more than it damages them. Nearly everybody who is interested in graphics will be learning to use PS that way, preserving its role as the industry standard. A bit like Windows and MS office in other fields.

It is more of a problem for the concurring software firms. If PS had a perfect copy protection, many people (not willing or able to pay 500+ bucks) would have to buy (for example) PSP instead. This would enable the company to develop this software into a real alternative to PS. And probably a decent number of people would keep using what they know if they decided to go professional.

I have to agree with the above. And I think Adobe knows this as well, that is why their copy protection isn't very strict.

I would be willing to bet that many people on this board started out with a not-exactly-legal copy of Photoshop, I know I did. And if I hadn't had a chance to play with that, well I probably would not even be on this board and I wouldn't ever have shelled out the money to purchase a legal copy. In this sense I believe that piracy, while harmful, still has benefits to the industry.

People who obtain a pirate copy of photoshop do so because they are not generally in a position to pay for an original copy.
photoshop represents a serious outlay for most people so if piracy were stopped I doubt it would make adobe any more money. And then if you talk about progams like 3DS max or Maya which cost thousands then almost no home user would ever own it even if they tried an evaluation version.
There is a vast amount of amazing images being produced by gifted people who's work would otherwise not be seen, people who have helped develope techniques that might never have come to light




~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

I dont feel a bit pity of using it....if it wasnt for photoshop I would never have been interested graphics...graphics was my first step into fine arts and digital arts...

so like as long as I am not making money using illigal copies of PS, who cares?


are you planing to buy new car when you just are learning how to drive?

no, right...you use old one, your parent's , friend's or guardian.

well whatever I dont think we should argue about something stupid as this
as longs as we all have fun learning how to use it, as long as you are not making money using it who gives a shit?


mind peoples privacy for once.

While company's like Adobe might beable to absorb the cost of illegal copys of there software. Thou friends at Adobe might see it otherwise. Who it realy hurts the small software developer who strive to compeat with Adobe, company's like JASC, ULead, Corel and others producing affordable solutions for the hobbiest. Who is going to by that a $45 shareware package when you can find Photoshop on through some sharing network.

As a production artist, I've spent over $15,000 in software over last 5-6 years and not to mention the $2000+ in upgrades yearly to say competive. People using free copies of software put me at a disadvantage, when bidding for projects or interviewing for postions. Student learning on illegal softwave, can compete with me and often except less as they spent less on there training. If they didn't have access they couldn't compete. There is no right to learning software, I legally aquired my software so should they. It's all part of the cost of learning the software to become competitive in the market place. (There are Ed. versions, they are cheap enough.)

J. Stuart J.

I'm going to remain decidedly neutral on this subject...but would like to respond to this:

quote:

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they are cheap enough

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I'm sorry to say this J, but as a student, nothing can ever be cheap enough. The reality is that the only thing that is cheap enough for most students is that which is free, becuase it' hard to hold down a good job that pays enough to maintain software and things like that AND keep up to date in your work, or even have the time to excel in it. These days, as education becomes more demanding, it's comnig down to having one or the other.

never both.

I used to pirate PS. I bought PSE (Photoshop Elements) to replace that. I've been working towards legitimacy for a while now. I'm happy to say that I'll be totally legit in half a year. As in, bought all of the software that I use. PSE is a very adequate product. After using it for a while I'm finding that it is a really, really good program. It has almost all of the functionality of PS and even some other things Photoshop doesn't have at all. For a sticker price of $79-99 US if you're dumb or less if you're sale savvy (I got mine for $49.00), it's hardly a bank breaker. There are almost always freeware/"LT" version of everything out there. Make your displeasure of high software costs known and buy LT. I HIGHLY suggest getting PSE for those who, like myself, cannot afford a full seat of photoshop.

This, from the adobe site, explains the differences rather well.

quote:

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How do you justify the price difference between Photoshop Elements and Photoshop?
Though the typical Photoshop Elements user will find that their product gives them all of the creative
freedom and flexibility they need, there are actually a wealth of advanced features that are found only in
the professional version of Photoshop. Some of the top reasons why a professional user will choose Adobe
Photoshop include:
· Image Editing standard in the creative community
· Advanced Web features (slicing, rollovers, etc.)
· Professional-level printing (CMYK separations)
· Healing Brush and Patch Tool for seamless retouching
· Channel editing
· Improved precision
· More flexible/powerful masking
· Automation
· Optimized for professional workflow

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So... uh... to sum up. I did pirate. I don't anymore. It isn't achieving the consumer's goal of lessening software prices and in the long run, isn't practical. I am far more comfortable with myself being legitimate and also i am now marketable. You are seriously liable if you are in business with illegal software. All profits earned with said software are NOT YOURS. Just thought I'd pop that little tidbit in there

Have a nice day.


[EDIT]Oh.. and by the way. For anyone who is saying that they aren't making money with apirated copy of Photoshop... yeah, actually, you did. About $609 worth as soon as you pirated that software.[EDIT]



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 09-11-2003).]

Personally, to get into photoshop, unless you're lucky enough to be able to afford it, obtaining a copy in 'other' ways is about the only way you're gonna get a feel for it.

Although if someone is making a living from using photoshop, I would expect them to cough up for it.

I hope that makes sense

I have to confess that I'm kind of pirating at the moment, but for a good reason.
(I hope even Adobe would agree with me on this one)

I have a legit PS 5.5, but my boss will not let me upgrade to PS 7 "since it's just a later release.. blahblah".
Not having worked with PS7 myself, I find myself lacking arguments in the discussion.

So I got hold of a non-legit PS7 the other day to play with at home. I guess by end of next week I'll have enough arguments to get back in the discussion and convince him to get me the upgrade.

And yes, even if he refuses, I'll wipe the PS7 i've got now!

I don't think they would. Mostly because they have addressed this issue already. That's what trial versions are for. Admirable attempt at justification, not legal, but admirable.

For $45 bucks you can get PSE which is built with PS7 architecture AFAIK. Maybe you can get your boss to spring for that first so you can get the feel of it and show him what can be done. Or get it yourself and work with it. There isn't any way he's going to know if it was PS7 or PSE. It works with all files that Photoshop can work with, including native PSD files. Just presenting some options for you. If you don't want to download that big a file... Email me. I'll burn you a copy of the trial and snail mail it to ya.

quote:

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Oh.. and by the way. For anyone who is saying that they aren't making money with apirated copy of Photoshop... yeah, actually, you did. About $609 worth as soon as you pirated that software

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I immediately pirated Photoshop after I read this, and created 10000 copies of it on my HD, but I´m still no millionaire. What did I do wrong?

From Adobe's point of view you didn't pay them $6,090,000 (or 6,090,609 if you want to be specific) for all 10,000 (+1 original) of those copies. You aren't that much money poorer for having their product. Not exactly the same as making money but if you had done it legitimately you shouldn't have the money you DO have. That's the point I was making.

smart ass

quote:

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It is more of a problem for the concurring software firms. If PS had a perfect copy protection, many people (not willing or able to pay 500+ bucks) would have to buy (for example) PSP instead. This would enable the company to develop this software into a real alternative to PS. And probably a decent number of people would keep using what they know if they decided to go professional.

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Or they would go to the lesser priced version of Photoshop Elements which, so far anyway, has almost all of the functionality of Photoshop, is still within the industry standard, and keeps the buyer within the Adobe family. PSE is priced well under PSP and outstrips it in my opinion. I think you need to stop focusing on a 500-600 dollar program and look at other alternatives that they have provided for you specifically to help aleviate the strains of pirating. Adobe is doing the same thing that AutoDesk has done for AutoCad. AutoDesk LT releases for Autocad have full functionality except fora few small things. They don't support 3D drafting, something only one person in the office can do usually anyway. It doesn't support lisp/arx applications or scripts. Most of these things are easily added in for a paltry amount or aren't necessary to the typical user. So for about $1,000 you can get nearly a full version of autocad instead of spending $4,000 dollars for a new seat. In my opinion paying $500-600 dollars for Photoshop 7 is ridiculous unless you absolutely need the highest levels of functionality. Some people here do, most do not. For those that do not need Photoshop 7, Photoshop Elements is a sound purchase and VERY economical.



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 09-12-2003).]

I see your point GD, one of the facts in the matter are...

If it's avaiable for nothing, even if it is illegal, it's very easy to obtain and people are going to do it. "Morals" often get forgotten when it comes to downloading software, and even music and films.

Though quite a valid point a friend at work made, he said he wouldn't have ever listened to or bought the music he does now if it wasn't for downloading it, so the industry aren't losing out, bands he wouldn't have listened to wouldn't have 'reached' him meaning they get more exposure.

I know it's meant to be about Photoshop, but I think that can be applied to Photoshop too.

if you copy it and get caught, you'd probably get charged as much as the software.

its so damn expensive these days.