Topic awaiting preservation: Discover islam

oh....islam???
what is the meaning of word "islam"?
what is the purpose of life?


to know more plz visite www.harunyahya.com
www.islamonline.com
www.aljazeera.net


THIS my tobic
bye
bye



discover islam......why islam is increase?
?

Mr Mabry: You spoil us

Discoverislam: If you want to stick around and discuss matters we'd be more than interested. Just posting and running is such bad form.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

What I know of the teaching of Islam, it seems like a beautiful religion that has a lot of discpline and prayer. I know my faith recgonizes this faith because they recgonize Abraham from the old testament and Jesus as a great prophet and give reverance to the mother of the prophet who is the virgin Mary. Its too bad there is so much violence connected with Islam. To me radical islams use the religion to further their political cause. It is true this religion is growing here in America. We have a new giant mosque in the middle of downtown Houston. Before you couldn't find one. I would hope in the future the religion of Islam can be known as a peacful faith worldwide.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-08-2003).]

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Its too bad there is so much violence connected with Islam.

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yeah...and christianity has such a peaceful past

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Cell 1007::

Lacuna: I'm with you there.

Yay! So we go from Gabriel, the fanatical and silent, to Discoverislam...

who next? Buddhismnow?

Scientologyisgreat?

Wiccaman?

Zenwarrior?

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 10-08-2003).]

Some people just cant move on and are stuck in the past and just can't seem to swallow forgiveness. Or how about people who like to harp on the negative, negative, negative. I am glad we made a saint out of St. Paul even though he violently killed thousands of Christians. I am sure Christ doesn't hold a grudge and just maybe Paul is in heaven.

Discoverislam Please post again.

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Some people just cant move on and are stuck in the past and just can't seem to swallow forgiveness. Or how about people who like to harp on the negative, negative, negative.

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well hello pot! this is the kettle speaking...
maybe you should practice a lil of what you're preachin there jade. you can't very well expect people to over look what your religion has done in the name of God if you're not willing to afford that same courtesy to other religions.

aside from that, you probably shouldn't be judging a whole religion on what some fanatic fraction of it has done.


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Cell 1007::

Jade...if by your own words Christ doesn't hold a grudge, then by extension the Heavenly Father doesn't hold a grudge either, since they are supposed to be two parts of the same thing...right?

So why do you seem so fanatically against sin? If christ doesn't hold a grudge, that means he always forgives, even if forgiveness isn't asked for. That means that everyone would get into heaven since they have been forgiven, and are therefore worthy in the eyes of God...

So, everything you've written here at the the asylum about the virtues of a sin-free life has all been a fallacy.

Somehow...I'm not surprised...

Oh, and I'll just point something out...this is just my belief, not necessarily shared by this board or it's owning body, blah, blah, blah...

I hate it when people come around Jehovah's Witness style and tell em I should be a part of their religion...I have my own beliefs, who are you to try and change them?

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maybe you should practice a lil of what you're preachin there jade

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Hear, hear!

That'd be a swell turn of events.

On the other hand, jade, some people (like....for instance...you), refuse to accept the facts and prefer instead tohide their heads under some pretense of goodliness.

you can only get so far with the 'dodge an deny' approach Jade.
Sooner or later you have to accept a little reality.

Reality is only a perception. If Jade chooses to percieve her
reality the was she does, than that is fine. I mean, what if you
are all wrong and God is an ant.


.quotes.

How esoteric....

However, there are things that are fact, and a person's perception of their current 'reality' does not change the things that have happened.

=)

jade: Sorry if it seems like we are all getting at you but the violence is only carried out by a small part of fundamentalist Moslems - you are tarring millions of people due to the acts of a few thousand. And:

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Some people just cant move on and are stuck in the past and just can't seem to swallow forgiveness.

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How long ago is enough? Since the Crusades? Since the destruction of the Cathars and Templars? The Second World War? The Bosnian War? The shooting of people working in abortion climics?

Lets be honest the whole War Against terror is being pitched as Christianity against Islam.

When will it ever end? Once people accept that theirs might not be the whole Truth? When we stop forgetting the lessons of history? I'm not going to hold my breath.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Islam? I would love to learn more about it and I would love to have an adherent to discuss some questions I have about it with. Somehow I feel that getting that chance with Discoverislam is slim however

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yeah...and christianity has such a peaceful past

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We all know the history. It is there for all to see. An important point to realize is that Xianity has gone through a period of reformation and adjustment since those times. You cannot say that in today's manifestation of the Xian faith that it is marked by violence. There are exceptions but those are just that, exceptions.

Islam on the other hand has *not* withstood any reformation and if fact is headed *backwards* from that path. I would have much rather lived under the more tolerant caliphs that presided over the golden age of Islam than anything we have today. At least Jews and Christians were allowed to be second class citizens back then which is a far cry better than the death senetences being handed out by the likes of Bin Laden and all those, who number in the millions, who sympathize if not outright support his cause. Bleh.

When will Islam examine its path? Who within that religion will rise up and lead it back to a sense of tolerance? How many who do will die in the process? Only time will tell and only a transformation from within the religion of "peace" will bring us all to a brigher day.

[edit: Emps, I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that it is a small minority of radicals carrying out these atrocities. While I totally agree only a few are actually doing the detonating, I have serious concerns about the number of Muslims who sympathize and/or support these actions. You are no doubt aware of the schools where a radical brand of Islam are being taught to young men in several nations. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran are replete with these training areas and indoctrination centers. This cannot be ignored and it should also be seen that this is a *brand* of Islam that has raised its head in the past but was quelled by a different brand yet more powerful version of Islamis leadership. We, including all peace loving Muslims, have a serious problem on our hands and that is how do we prevent this brand of Islam from gaining any more ground than it already has.
/edit]

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-08-2003).]

Sk

Well, I know I said this before, but I will repeat it. The only sin you cannot be forgiven for is a denial of the Holy Spirit per the bible. Like you know Jesus is God and you refuse his will to you anyway. Per scripture, if we like don't go where God compels, we may become burning coals on a hot pit indefinitely. Like "ouch" forever.

I meant in my post about Islam, that only a few percentage of Islamics where bad elements. I wasn't talking about a whole faith of believers. Just the masses assoicate violence with this faith and thats unfair to a faith of peace, prayer and fasting.

And just for the record, JK, you da man!!!

^^^^^^^^
What Bug said!




[This message has been edited by Xel (edited 10-09-2003).]

OK...first, I know this is picky, but my name is Skaarjj, not Sk...

Now...

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The only sin you cannot be forgiven for is a denial of the Holy Spirit per the bible.

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This again contradicts what you said earlier...to not forgive is it hold a grudge...if Jesus doesn't hold a grudge, then why are people not forgiven?

Also, on the scripture point...the bible is a metaphorical document, not to be taken literally, as I hope we all know, and it is also written by men. If we do as you say and do exactly what it says, we are then following the teachings of men, not of God...the only teachings of God that can ever hold sway over our lives are those that God puts in the heart.

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 10-09-2003).]

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We all know the history. It is there for all to see. An important point to realize is that Xianity has gone through a period of reformation and adjustment since those times. You cannot say that in today's manifestation of the Xian faith that it is marked by violence. There are exceptions but those are just that, exceptions.

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so because xianity has seen the error of it's ways, then it can no longer have it's very violent past brought up? it's only been the past couple hundred years or so that xianity has steared away from being so violent and considering how long it's been in existance, that's not all that long ago. i'm not condoning violence or saying that it's a perfect religion... none of them are, but i hardly think any member of xianity needs to be pointing fingers at other religions, regardless.

Also, considering that there's roughly 1 billion muslims on the planet, i think it is fairly safe to say, that it is just a small portion of them that are fanatical. though, it's easy to think it's most of them because the religion gets so much bad press.

i think it's also important to point out, that in the islam religion, there isn't a seperation of church and state... they're one in the same. so i would think that would give them a very different perspective to things than non-islams.

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I meant in my post about Islam, that only a few percentage of Islamics where bad elements. I wasn't talking about a whole faith of believers. Just the masses assoicate violence with this faith and thats unfair to a faith of peace, prayer and fasting.

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yes, jade, that's clearly what you meant in your first post... i can see that
*sigh* you're so wishy washy...


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Cell 1007::

Lacuna, I am in no way suggesting that the history of Xianity, both good and bad, should not be brought up. I would never say that. I want everyone to be clear on the facts... all of them.

I have no problem pointing fingers at Islam. Why? Because I am prepared to be judged by the same standard by which I'm judging. I am saying that Xianity has cleaned up its act when it comes to the violence and other problems in its past. Islam didn't always look the way it does today.

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...there isn't a seperation of church and state... they're one in the same

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Exactly! What would you say if Jerry Falwell took over the country and imposed his reading of Christian law on all of us? Do you know how many Muslims in the world think that is exactly what should be done, except imposing Islamic law instead of Christian? I am prepared to say that the majority of the populations of some countries, let's take Pakistan for example, would favor such a thing. This scares the crap out of me.

The problem I see is that we are imposing our world view onto the Muslim world. We cannot fathom why anyone with a decent amount of means would want to live under religious law. We cannot understand why anyone would want to blow themselves up when they come from wealthy families in Saudia Arabia. That's because we are *assuming* that all cultures have a Western mind set. This is not only wrong, it's really a bit bigoted, or unintentionally so... ignorant I suppose. But it is also dangerous because it leads us to false conclusions about other people's motivations.

. . : slicePuzzle

thank you for clearning that up bugs, i was definitely interpreting what you said as 'that's in the past, lets not bring it up'.
i agree that xianity has tried to straighten itself out. but i don't think that one religion, that has commited horrible things in the name of their God, can sit in judgment of another that's doing the same thing....especially when it's not the 'whole' of the religion that's doing it. it's no different than people judging the whole of xianity because there's a portion of them who have no problems blowing up abortion clinics or because some folks take up snakes or talk in tongues... (kinda crappy examples, but you know what i'm gettin at). i'm sorry if i'm being a bit thick on this point.

quote:

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What would you say if Jerry Falwell took over the country and imposed his reading of Christian law on all of us? Do you know how many Muslims in the world think that is exactly what should be done, except imposing Islamic law instead of Christian? I am prepared to say that the majority of the populations of some countries, let's take Pakistan for example, would favor such a thing. This scares the crap out of me.

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(i'm apologizing now if i'm misunderstanding you here) so, xianity wouldn't be tickled pink if everyone was converted? isn't that kinda the point of sending missionaries out into the world to convert people? really don't most religions have that as an ultimate goal? i haven't noticed islamic missionaries at my door... though, that could be because i was too busy trying to get rid of the mormons, jahovas and catholics.

i'm personally in favor of a GIANT seperation of church and state... i just wanted to point out that islam doesn't. thus explaining why they have some of the views they have. like, the things we view as being purely political, to them, are purely religious.

i completely agree with your last paragraph. very well said!

__________________________
Cell 1007::

This again contradicts what you said earlier...to not forgive is it hold a grudge...if Jesus doesn't hold a grudge, then why are people not forgiven?

Also, on the scripture point...the bible is a metaphorical document, not to be taken literally, as I hope we all know, and it is also written by men. If we do as you say and do exactly what it says, we are then following the teachings of men, not of God...the only teachings of God that can ever hold sway over our lives are those that God puts in the heart.

Maybe you didn't understand what I meant. I meant like" God forbid, that jesus doesn't hold a grudge, because if he did St Paul would be in hell for all the people he violently murdered. Meaning if Christ can show compassion, so should we as to imply we have to be careful not to point the finger at sinners. Its not our place.

So where & what are the teachings of God if they are written somewhere. If they are not written, how do we know what God wants us to know & do? Do you know for sure God talks to us indiviually giving us all different sects of faith and telling us to worship him in different ways than our neighbors for a reason. What proof do you have that God is putting thoughts into the heart? Where does it say that? I want to know.

Boy...this is fun...

OK...from one contradiction to another jade

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so should we as to imply we have to be careful not to point the finger at sinners. Its not our place.

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OK...hose who need ot know can already spot how you've become hypocritical here jade...if you don't, then that just points even more to your own purposeful ignorance.

Now, as for how I know if God puts what we're supposed ot do within our own hearts, well I have two things to say here:

1. This is just my belief, but a belief it is. How do I know he does it? I don't, but that's what we call faith Jade, you've expounded on the subject of faith many times here, and you can't even spot it when it jumps up and bites you in the bible? How do I know he does it? How do you know he doesn't? You're automatically taking the position here that I must be wrong, and as such you demand proof for what is a spiritual matter. You yourself have said that there can be no proof on spiritual matters, for they are matters of faith, and faith cannot be measured in a scientific way.

But while we're on the subject of proof Jade...what proof do you have that this character 'Jesus Christ' ever existed? Or St. Paul for that matter? Or Judas? or Adam and Eve? Abraham and Sarah? Cain and Able? Noah? Mary? Joseph? How long would you like me to go on?

Can't provide any? Didn't think so

2. God is supposed to have created all of humanity isn't he? Then why, like any good inventor, wouldn't have he have put contingencies in us? I beleive the contingency is refered to as the concience. In the end, we all have one, no matter how hard some work to suppress it. We grow up, and we know what is right and what is wrong.

But really, in the end, we've all been put here with a purpose. We can't deviate outside our purpose, it's been built into us. And if we do what we are destined to do, thne we are doing what God wants us to do...thus can we really be punished for that?

Free-will is a fallacy...everything is predetermined, so you may as well enjoy what you're destined to do.

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What proof do you have that God is putting thoughts into the heart? Where does it say that? I want to know.

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Funny how when proof for your beleifs is asked of you, you quote a couple tidbits of scripture, pass off a few phrases that have been dolled out by the vatican, and claim no further proof is needed....

But when a different view is offered, *then* all of a sudden proof is required?

Amusing to say the least

hi all
i have just read the topic and your thoughts. Since the topic starter is not interested in the discussion any more i am volunteer to answer your questions as far as i can do as a muslim.

It is difficult to join the discussion after this point but i want to express my feelings:

I know that for foreigners islam seems to support violence and terror. Because you hear about islam only when there is a related terrorist attack. Do you ever remember you hear about teaching of islam any where else? So you are right to think that way. Infact, islam supports freedom and free will of every human being. In our teaching, forcing somebody to believe in islam is forbidden, so it is written in our holy book. But there are fanatics, like in every religion or diety. I do not condemn all the christians for acts of inquisitors or crusadors in the middle age. But our society and most of the islamic societies is not civilized like yours. I accuse the islamic societies for not developing in social and technological areas. The ignorance brings the violence in my opinion. And i am angry to islamic terrorist for making you think our religion is primitive.

I am sorry that you know islam that way. I respect all of the religions and think they have the same purpose.

i will be glad to answer all of your questions

I agree with you man, I tend to take it that way, just like judo/christian bible has sayings like , pluck out your eye if you see hot babe...people finnally relized not to take it literally, I think Islamic scripture has similar metaphors and the dumb ass camel jokeys are taking it all too literal, plus as you said man, they are not civilized.

derketa, WELCOME!!!

Thank you very much for joining the discussion. I have so many questions. Let me say that faith and religion is a personal interest of mine and I am somewhat familiar with your faith. But I have so much more to learn.

Where in your sacred texts does it prohibit the forcing of Islam onto others? I have read verses that say to do violence to others. How do you view those verses?

I understand what it is like to hold certain views of religious texts that go against what others of my faith claim. I do not condemn all Muslims for the actions of *some* Muslims. My concern comes from how many Muslims agree with the violence.

In your estimation, how many of the Muslim world agree with the actions of Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups?

In your view, does the Koran have to be read literally and followed literally in order to be a good Muslim?

These are just a few of my initial thoughts and I really look forward to hearing your views on these things.

. . : slicePuzzle

derketa
I do not condemn all the christians for acts of inquisitors or crusadors in the middle age.

bugs
I do not condemn all Muslims for the actions of *some* Muslims.

By these statements alone one can see the heart of a person. These are truly warm hearted individuals.

SKaarj & DL

I was using the same approach you guys use on me. Where is the proof? I was just reversing it. Sorry you didn't get it. You think I really expected proof? You sure would'nt make good Sherlocks.

Well, I am leaving for awhile, I can tell when Iam not wanted.

hi bugs,

i will try to answer you questions, due to my point of view

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**Where in your sacred texts does it prohibit the forcing of Islam onto others? I have read verses that say to do violence to others. How do you view those verses?
**
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I read whole of the Kuran about 3 times. I have never seen a command to use violence. Furthermore it strictly bans muslims to kill someone, to force people out of their land and to act unjustly among people, whoever they are.

But it is open to different views of different people. I read its translated version, i wish i could understand its original version and bypass the translator's view.

Islam is a regime in fact. But Kuran must be read carefully and must be understood correctly. That's why i said people must be sophisticated if they claim to set an islamic regime.
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**I understand what it is like to hold certain views of religious texts that go against what others of my faith claim. I do not condemn all Muslims for the actions of *some* Muslims. My concern comes from how many Muslims agree with the violence.
In your estimation, how many of the Muslim world agree with the actions of Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups?**
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No muslim can agree violence. What phalestinian make against israel is a war not terror. There is a reason to fight.It is a war of freedom. I dont mean here the terrorist attacks in israel, that is also a violence.What Bin Laden did was violence. There is nothing to relate with islam in this action. I have never seen a muslim supporting this action. Only i know there are, just like you do. If you want a percentage i would say 1%.
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In your view, does the Koran have to be read literally and followed literally in order to be a good Muslim?
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The meaning of Kuran changes for everybody. There are very clear orders like being honest, praying, not killing etc. These orders must be followed literally. Also you can find many various meanings in a sentence. You are free to follow what you understand if there is not a contradiction with those "literal meanings" i mentioned.
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i hope i made somethings clear for you. Maybe complicated?


bye the way how do we make quotes?

derketa:

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Do you ever remember you hear about teaching of islam any where else?

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My own experience of Islamic teachings whilst in Turkey and North Africa (and my families experience through out the Middle East) has been one of amazing generosity and helpfulness - this tends to be a common characteristic of Arabic/Turkic people (presumably because being descended from desert nomads you are reliant on the generosity of strangers) but I believe it is enshrined in the Koran

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

derketa, I'm very glad you could join this discussion. I have no questions so far, so I can only help you with the thing you asked about quotes:

The tag works like this:

[ quote ] insert quote here [ / quote ]

(just remove all the spaces)

Also, if you want to see all the UBB codes and what they do, click on the link *UBB Code is ON on the left, when you make a post.

Abd I thought I'd throw in 'The Muslim World: The Average American's View' (for comedy value only):
http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/derf.gif

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

lol, i think you are underestimating Turkey

derketa:

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lol, i think you are underestimating Turkey

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I don't think that is possible really but..........

Well I suppose they did slaughter the Armenians and they are still oppressing the Kurds and illegally occupying part of another country (from which I had to flee as a child with Turkish paratroopers darkening the sky and their tanks rumbling down the streets) but I have always blamed that on the secular state machine rather than the Turkish people - who I love

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Not so long ago I watched most of this.. "Junoon: The Rock Star and the Mullahs"

I thought it got down to pretty much the basic mindset. I'd like to see it again actually.
http://www.museumofmusic.org/vibrationsback/030825/p1.html

why doesnt the human race just do away with organized religions and their hardlined views and just go about the world having a set of ideas on what is really out there. This would really help fix these problems with war of religions. Islam may be nice and same with chirstainty but they are by far the most hippocritical of the big religions.


Cell 650

Patrick;

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just go about the world having a set of ideas on what is really out there

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The big problem here is that they're having some arguments about which set of ideas is right.

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Islam may be nice and same with christianity but they are by far the most hypocritical of the big religions.

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Oh really. Why? I don't mind if you spout some random opinions, but a little backup on your 'facts' would be nice.

P.S. Grammar nazi has corrected your statement in italics.