Topic awaiting preservation: You do NOT know your fate!

Alright... It's been a while since I've posted anything relevant so I figure with these scrambled thoughts in my head I may be able to jot them down into a meaningful thread.

First of all, it's a known paradox that no one knows their fate. None. Anyone who says they know where they are going when they die is blindly lying.

One of the many things I despise arguing with Christians about is fate, because at some point in the conversation one of them dramatically states "Oh I'm going to heaven, I know." NO YOU DON'T KNOW. You think you know. I mean, I respect peoples' choice to believe in what they want, but this is too ignorant... Christians can think all they want that they're going to heaven, that's fine, but when they say that they know, when it's proven that they don't know, and they still continue to banter, I get pissed.

And it's not even that it's a known paradox either, Christians believe that the only justifiable judge in the known universe is their God. So why the fuck would they be speaking for him on his terms if they believe that it's his choice? Wouldn't that be hypocrisy? Wouldn't that contradict what they believe? And then, after that little dramatic statement I'll usually say something back with a sigh in my voice like "Ugh, Yea... See you don't really know anything about after life. You're welcome to think that you are, but saying that you know is a blatant contradiction on your behalf." Well, you might think that would open their minds a little bit, but.... Then we get into "No, I know. I spoke to god, and he told me."

Whoa, now that's some deep shit, I draw the line there and just end the conversation. But back to the topic.. It's impossible to predetermine your fate. Any Christian that says they know they're going to heaven is speaking for God and if I were the God I don't believe in I would get off my cloud and bitch slap them for telling me what I'm going to do.

I hope that this little chat can advise some insight throughout other members Christian and Non-Christian.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

sorry to say you're an incoherent troll on your best day man.

Jason

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I were the God I don't believe in I would get off my cloud and bitch slap them for telling me what I'm going to do.

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LOL... that's good InSiDeR. Not to mention of course that knowledge of the future, precognition/premonition/forsight is considered witchcraft and is punishable by death according to Christian law, old Christian law mind you, but people still bring it up concerning me. Funny how that only works one way.

We're all going to die, that's fate enough for me

I believe the bible has some pretty clear rules about who is going to heaven and who isn't so if someone truly believes they've met the conditions, what's the problem with them saying (and 100% believing) "I'm going to heaven?" Absolute statements like that don't bother me because they don't affect me in any way. If Joe Christian thinks he's going to heaven, it's no skin off my nose. No use arguing about something that doesn't affect anyone else.


Amerasu

Who said fate exist in first place? I dont believe in fate.
If there is free will, how can fate exist then?


well insider, there is something I kinda believe in, self fulfiling prophecy
Of course I don't mean it has to do anything with supernatural, instead rather natural.

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If Joe Christian thinks he's going to heaven, it's no skin off my nose.

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What was that word you used in there? "Thinks?" Ah, completely different story than "Knowing."

Ruski, let me rephrase it without using the word fate, if it makes it more clear. No one knows what happens to them when they die. You can only know what happens to your body, but the soul/mind/spirit is something that no one can explain, and when someone says they know for a fact that their soul/mind/spirit is going to heaven, they be lyin' like a dog, yo.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-11-2003).]

InSiDeR: I don't beleive in fate, and yet, I K-N-O-W that I'm going to heaven. I beleive that I have full control over every single action of mine and that those actions determine my future, like heaven.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 10-11-2003).]

^ HAHAHAHA....


Insider I gotta agree with yo on this one.

Heaven in bible is described as if you have won a lottery, gold, diamonds, all full of jewels....everything is made out of them, read the revelation if you want.


Eternal Bliss huh?

very fun, I wonder what we gonna do up there? will we even have a mind? our body is dead, we will no longer function, no longer think, no longer breath, no longer live.

A soul without a body is empty, its missing its other half......a plant will not grow without soil...

what a soul to do without a body?

edit:

I always thaugh heaven is when you die in a peaceful way....when you die without worries, without doubt, when you can just finnally rest in peace! YAY thats a heaven for me



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-11-2003).]

Insider, its important to realize you don't know what others know. It might seem silly to you that I converse with my God daily but you do NOT know its untrue. Rather then creating threads about what you think Christians do not know, why not address what you don't know? It will probably be more beneficial to your growth.

Jestah

ruski, it amazes me that you can actually become more condescending day by day.

i'm with JK on this one

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Jestah, this is true. I do not know what others know per se. However, I do know, as does anyone else, that fate/afterlife is not predeterminable. That is pretty much what I'm basing this thread on (and I wish you wouldn't lump me in with Ruski, fig), so if some of you thought I was targeting Christians with insults, well I didn't try to do that.

As for CFB, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Insider, by no means do you (or anyone else) KNOW fate & afterlife is not predeterminable. It's an opinion that you hold. I'm also not sure which group I lumped you into.



Jestah

Well of course I don't. And I'm not the one claiming I do. Throughout human history that has been a question unanswerable to man. Providing humans with a comfort such as a rewarding after life, like Heaven, is an answer given to man by man. No man knows fate. I'm clearly stating that when Christians, and sometimes not Christians, state they know (like our bible boy CFB) they're speaking out of turn for what they cannot explain. He's speaking out of faith, not fact.

Bible is just a literature IMO, just like Illiad....nothing special nor personal, simple story written with metaphor

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Well of course I don't.

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But you just said you knew: However, I do know, as does anyone else, that fate/afterlife is not predeterminable.

As for the rest of your post you don't know what Cfb or I know. We very well could have had a conversation with God about the afterlife and you'd have no clue. It might seem unlikely for you but you will never know for sure.

Jestah

neither will you

Hey Jestah, that wasn't God, it was a dog's voice...did he tell how many people you should kill?

ruski or whose it
you better watch out
you better not cry
you better not pout
i'm tellin' you why
cause you don't know
who's around the corner
ready to take you "out"
God told me so
and i know
that you don't know
but i know
and the shadow knows
bwaahahahah!!!

InSiDeR: My reality includes my personal theological beleifs. According to those beliefs, If I (1) Love God, and (2) Love People and (3) "Accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior." Now, fate has to do with:

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The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.

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this.

So, according to the dictionary definition of fate, no, I don't beleive in fate, because I beleive that my actions determine what will happen to me. Therefor, I am in control of my after life.

(PS: I really, really resent that Bible Boy comment. I in NO way consider my self to be a Bible thumpin' Christian)

What I don't understand, Insider, is that you claim to be a diehard Atheist, yet it's clear that you're infatuated with God.

I don't see why you can't let people believe in what they want and leave it at that...



[This message has been edited by synax (edited 10-13-2003).]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't consider myself a diehard atheist. I sort of opened my mind a little more.

By all means, I'm not going to stop people from believing in what they want. That's their choice and I respect it gracefully, but it's that little comment that sparked this thread that just irritates me so much. I guess that's a drawback of not believing a supreme being per se, but I really don't see a problem with letting people believe in what they want as long as it's not hurting anyone. I hope that I'm not coming off as, well, how you described me. That's now how I want to come off at all.

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I sort of opened my mind a little more.

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So, InSiDeR: You've opened your mind a little bit more to what? It looks like here that your just attacking Christians in general over something that has little backing and is obviously, if the definition of 'fate' is looked up, and if you knew anything about the subject, is false.

So, would you seriously consider looking into become a Christian, or, if that's not your thing, how about a Bhuddist, or...umm, you could take it down a notch and become a Solopsist. Or something.

I've opened my mind to explore more with my mind, like the moral values of Buddhism, which is something I'll bet you've never considered. But then again I wouldn't know, so feel free to correct me. And I certainly don't consider this an attack thread.

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but it's that little comment that sparked this thread that just irritates me so much.

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Insider, what I still find most interesting is you've done the exact same thing that irritated you so much - yet you don't seem to realize it.


Jestah

Tell me what that is again?

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Tell me what that is again?

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Insider, what irritates you is a Christians tone of certainty toward their fate. It is your opinion that they do not know for certain their fate. It is not fact. It's possible this person could have had a conversation with God and he laied out his master plan.

What irritates me is your constant accusations of what Christians do and do not know. What gives you all of this insight while still a teenager? Your contradictions also bug me but I try not to draw on such petty things.




Jestah

To know what happen after we die is impossible. It's a known paradox.

No Insider, thats your personal opinion. Just because you haven't spoken to Bruce Willis doesn't mean I haven't.

Jestah

*sigh* nevermind..

InSiDeR, I prefer to say that I cling God's promise that I will go to heaven. Do I know for absolute certain? No, but I trust that He will keep His word. My faith is founded upon the truth of what Jesus told his apostles when he was here. Since I believe he backed up his teachings with raising from the dead, I also believe that he will follow through with his promises to us. It's as simple as that.

But when other Xians tell you that they know they're going to heaven, I bet some are thinking of this verse:

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I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. --1 John 5:13

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John was in a position to know (read be pretty damn sure!) that Christ was the real deal. If John, in fact, saw Christ raised from the dead, then I can appreciate the certainty in his writings to us.

. . : slicePuzzle

What does Bruce Willis has to do anything with afterlife?

I dont see Insider as if he attacked someone here, he simply stated his opinion on disagreement with religious way of thinking about afterlife....
cbf, no need to get offended....

and I think you must yourself clearly understand that bible is not a manual.

When it says in Bible that you must cut your hand off if you commit sin, or kill a homosexual person if he makes love to man, or that heaven is made out of gold and jewels, people tell me that its all symbolic....then why does ressurection of christ , punishment and reward from god, afterlife and such has to be taken any differently?

I mean...who decides all that???


edit: ohh and Bugs, I think John didnt know how to write in first place since he was a fisherman...correct me if I am wrong.

he might have told alot of things...especially at that time when people believed in all the supernatural stuff....I think his words and stories were passed on to different people until someone started taking notes....remember its all his oppinion, having faith in God and person who claims to speak for God is totally different matters.


[not sure] BTW I found out that birth of Christ was not in December at all, since it describes that sheeps were bread or something like that(has to do something with darn sheeps) said to be spring.
And that december 25th is actually somekind of Jewish holyday where people give presents to each other.[/not sure]


[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-15-2003).]

Ruski: Regarding the December thing, yup. And we also worship on Sunday (or so I've heard) because the Roman Catholic Church, when it was going around destroying everyone that wouldn't conform to them, hit the Germans, and said: Ok, so you get Sunday, because thats the day that you worship the Sun god, but, now it becomes OUR day! Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Ruski, Bruce Willis could be anyone. Because Insider hasn't had a conversation with God he assumes no one has. Although he doesn't believe in a God, he can't say with any certainty that He doesn't exist. Without this certainty he can't make claims that God hasn't conversed with people and told them about their future. Of course that hasn't stopped him yet.

I don't consider Insiders actions to be attacking either. He clearly takes issue with Christianity although I believe that will clear up with maturety. He comes off as seeking personal approvement. In that search I'd just like to point out he seems to be doing exactly what irritates him and unwilling to admit this. If he is truly seeking this improvement and willing to open his mind to other things he might want to start looking at his own actions. It will be more meaningful then those of Christians.

Jestah

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Because Insider hasn't had a conversation with God he assumes no one has.

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For the love of god I'm not going to repeat myself again after this, that is NOT what I'm saying Jestah. Please point out to me where I said or somehow could have been interpreted as saying "I've never had a convo with god, therefore you haven't either."

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he can't say with any certainty that He doesn't exist. Without this certainty he can't make claims that God hasn't conversed with people and told them about their future. Of course that hasn't stopped him yet.

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I never claimed anything... I stated, out of pure fact, that it is impossible to determine, what happens to our mind and soul (assuming the possibility of a soul) after death. I never said anywhere that poeple don't have conversations with their God(s), at all. I never said anywhere that people can't have conversations with their God(s), at all. As a matter of fact I find that to be completely irrelevant to the topic and would appriciate if you go back and reread my first post, please.

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I mean...who decides all that???

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We do

Ruski, in order to make good decisions it is important to have a good set of facts to work with. I think there are a good number of things we could all come to much more agreement on if we were all aware of more facts about the Bible and the context in which it was written.

But I understand that we are all very busy and it's not the sort of thing most people are going to take the time to do. There are plenty of topics that I just don't have time to delve into, but I think this one is very important for everyone to consider because it deals with such important things about how we live our lives and, if you believe it, where we will spend eternity. I think it is well worth the time spent to understand better.

Oh yeah, it is very unlikely that Jesus was born on December 25. CFB, we have been worshipping on the first day of the week almost from the beginning. You will recall that Christ rose on Sunday and the early Xians gathered on that day in honor of that. I had never heard the German thing but matching Xian days to the converted people's special days was definitely practiced.

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For the love of god I'm not going to repeat myself again after this, that is NOT what I'm saying Jestah. Please point out to me where I said or somehow could have been interpreted as saying "I've never had a convo with god, therefore you haven't either."

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I'll stand corrected then. What reason do you give for thinking its crazy to talk with God?

quote:

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I never claimed anything... I stated, out of pure fact, that it is impossible to determine, what happens to our mind and soul (assuming the possibility of a soul) after death.

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Its very difficult to discuss this with you because you constantly point to your own opinions as fact. You can't prove that this is impossible. At best you can say you don't know. You don't know what others know and you can't be certain what the future holds.

Jestah

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in order to make good decisions it is important to have a good set of facts to work with

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but Bugs, how do we know if they are facts or tales, or myths...
I mean, sure Noahs age is a Myth, but why should we take afterlife and ressurection as a fact?

I personally think eternal life is ridiculus. No offence here, but thats just me.
It seems like people are so unhappy with their life and they relize that they don't have enaugh time to enjoy it cause they always work, work, work(thats why I chose to become an artist )...they turn into faith that they will have fun for whole eternity if they fallow certain preachings.

After all this were Jews who came up with Promised Lnad stuff...they where slaves for centuries, they needed some kind of hope to survive...

How do you even know that the Bible is true? I mean, can you *prove* that it wasn't just some bored guy who wrote it? Can you provide solid fact that Jesus existed? Can you prove anything that comes from the Bible?

[Edit: If none of that makes sense or sounds ridiculous, then blame my ignorance. I haven't ever read a single word from the Bible.]



[This message has been edited by synax (edited 10-15-2003).]

By looking at the original scrolls, it's evident that the Bible was written over a LONG period of time, I think 2,000 years, be MANY diffrent authors. Jesus, at least the historical Jesus, can be proved to have existed. I think that some people found, well, ok, lots of people have found archaeological stuff that says he's real, but recently they found a tablet, or something, about Pilot and Jesus. For your third question/statement: Lots of the Bible is merely historical stuff, geneologies, facts about wars etcetera, which can all be proved.

I can see where InSiDeR is coming from. Just as his statement is a matter of belief, so is the statement that someone KNOWS what is going to happen. That doesn't make either of those statements true. The defense that you've had a 'conversation' with GOD seems a little presumptuous IMO. I mean conversation like, you talk, HE talks, you talk, HE talks. A phone call... you know. I think it's safe to assume that that doesn't happen. If it did I think there would be far more believers. You can't introduce HIM to me. It is your interpretation of things around you that lead you to believe he answers. Your faith predisposes you to see things that others don't see. To interpret things differently than others do. Just like within this thread. InSiDeR brought up an interesting issue which people took as an attack. I didn't take offense to it. Bug's doesn't seem to have. He answered quite constructively and politely. Maybe discussion would be more productive than a digital equivelant of being argumentative.

quote:

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Its very difficult to discuss this with you because you constantly point to your own opinions as fact. You can't prove that this is impossible. At best you can say you don't know. You don't know what others know and you can't be certain what the future holds.

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Of course, if we go by this logic, then it does indeed follow that you don't know that insider doesn't in fact know that you don't know what your fate will be.

Maybe he does actually know that you don't know. Maybe he knows because god told him.... Who knows? I don't know....

=)

`THE SHADOW KNOWS!

CBF what facts have archeologist found that jesus existed?

I heard that they did some kind of modeling in 3D app of jesus' face....but where did they get source from?

Ruski: I know that theres much better documented sources, but this was a quick one: clicky.

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

IMO, the simple facts of the changes in the general view of people in that area at that time are close to enough to support the idea that Jesus existed as a person.

The impact that the man (or the story, should that be the case) had on the world is practically incomprehensible.

A paradigm shift, if ever there was one.

The idea that we could change from the jealousy and anger of god in the old testament to the love and forgiveness of the new testament is quite something...regardless of which side of the fence you're on religiously or philosophically.

It says nothing as to the divinity of the person, or of the existence of a god. But is points very definately to a person or group of people who were truly revolutionary in thought and action.

FWIW...

nicely stated DL. on an aside note i heard an interesting comment by someone asking that if jesus didn't rise from the dead, why didn't the romans simply produce the body and put the whole christianity thing to rest? the tomb was guarded after all, you'd have to assume that roman soldiers could take a couple apostles we can hypothesize either way, just food for thought.

to answer synax's question on how we know anything's real, is it possible this is all totally fabricated? sure, anything is possible. the thing is that i've seen in my life how real God is and that His relationship to me lines up with how its described in the bible. i've also seen and had friends experience things that convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that God and spiritual warfare are very real. because of this i do believe that the bible is entirely accurate. that doesn't mean there aren't things that i don't understand or agree with, but those things rarely (if ever) have an impact on my daily life and relationship with God, they're primarily historical. but to each their own.


KAIROSinteractive

maybe the tomb and all that stuff never happened, this is exactly what aposltes could have made up....

after all Paul admited he never met the christ in person...

CBF I know Jesus existed, by historic documents, but they always end with him being crusified...

what I am looking for is what archiologist found...beside historic documents on christ...not that he jusr existed, but what he really was?

If you can provide scientific explanation, that would be helpful

ruski, if it hadn't happened then (or at least something hadn't happened) then the romans would've simply nipped the whole christianity thing in the bud and ended it right there. as DL so eleoquently put, SOMETHING happened that caused a huge shift in thinking and started a movement the eventually affected the entire world. you're also assuming that there were only 12 people with any firsthand knowledge of christ. thousands upon thousands of people saw him preach and teach and were converted to following "the way" (as it was referred to in the early church). this wasn't just started because of what twelve guys wrote.

as far as biblical history being true, check out a very cool show i saw on the discovery channel last night called "ancient evidence". it examines different biblical events and fins historical evidence for or against those occurences, really interesting stuff.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Not only were there thousands that were influenced by His preachings before the crucifixion but the NT accounts tell us that a few hundred followers saw Him alive *after* the crucifixion.

I like what you said, DL. At this point in time with what we know now, it is a diffucult position to take when one doubts the existence of the *man* Jesus Christ. His divinity and the resurrection is a different matter and understandably so. While I believe there is significant reasons to believe the latter, there are even more for believing the former.

. . : slicePuzzle

Fig 12 guys didnt write anything...they just kept preaching.

They didnt know how to write...

I mean its pretty clear how can it have an affect on people....you go to a depressed person and say...Hey, do this and you will have Immortal life! YAY

cmon, since you got nothing else to do why wouldnt you just do it? So people kept passing it on and on...I dont understand thought why would romans want to end it?

I mean the Oilate himself didnt even want to do anything with jesus, jews are the ones wanted him dead....well of course it makes sense, one of the jews just one day starts walking and telling....I am messiah, then I am GOD, Me and GOD are one! if you were jew at that time, you would be what the F@$% is this guy thinking?

as for ressurection, dont believe it....


I am sure noah existed, and so did moses...but the whole ideas? 9 centuries of life? split the sea? It's just like too questionable, how come we dont see anymore of this fantasy miracles?

I compare them to resurection....

I know how people just dont want to die, and hide from truth, they just want to live forever! " because afterall, cmon! I have archived so much! am I just gonna die?
I want eternal life for for gods sake!"

Ruski, why do you keep saying they didn't know how to write? They most certainly did know how to write. Who do you think wrote most of the New Testament? The majority of it was written in their lifetimes.

As to why we don't see large miracles now, well, the reason probably has something to do with the shift in attitude between the Old and New Testaments, The Old Testament had lots of large, 'fearful' miracles, like a column of fire, or god englufing thing, or smiting this, or this, or that. The New Testament miracles are mostly small-scale. Ressurect Lazerus, turn some water into wine, create some fish etcetera. It looks like God has become less and less evident as time has progressed, almost like: 'In the beginning' he needed to to create a following, but as world spread, he didn't nead to. Of course, when Jesus comes down, he can do some miracles. It really looks like the only point is to wow some people and provide some help for some blind people etcetera.

Well, I'm sleep deprived, and I don't even think I make sense to myself, so If I make tons of errors and am completely incoherant, forgive me.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 10-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 10-17-2003).]

Because they were fishermen...

uneducated peasants, but who wrote it? I dunno....My guess they simply preached it, but didnt record anything, some people perhaps that fallowed their preaching took notes.

edit: I will always forgive you CBF

in my oppinion, becouse miracles are nothing supernatural at all, but rather natural...as for the sea split and such , thats just a tale =)



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-17-2003).]

From here

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

ruski, please have SOME idea of what you're talking about before you write things. among the occupations of the apostles and others who followed and wrote about christ were fishermen, a tax collector, a doctor (luke), and a biblical scholar (paul).

chris


KAIROSinteractive

I do not post here usually and I won't say much.

Ruski: Whether or not the authors of the books of the New Testament were literate is irrelevent. At the end of the letter to the Romans, the scribe who was doing the actual writing for Paul greets the church there.

Romans 16:22 I, Tertius, who write this letter, greet you in the Lord.

Also, your thoughts about why Jesus's message was accepted by people doesn't make much sense.

quote:

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I know how people just dont want to die, and hide from truth, they just want to live forever! " because afterall, cmon! I have archived so much! am I just gonna die?
I want eternal life for for gods sake!"

---

You seem to think that Jesus preached that salvation is an extension of this life; that our acheivements carry over. However, we are told repeatedly:

Matthew 19:30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Those who seek glory in this life and are not humble are reaping their rewards NOW and will not reap them later. The first half of Matthew 6 is devoted to this principle. Also, faithful Christians are PROMISED that they will be persecuted for their beliefs.

John 15:18-20 (Jesus speaking to the Apostles)"If he world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Fig: If by Paul you mean the author of the majority of the letters to the churches (epistles) then I am afraid you are mistaken about his profession.

Acts 18:3 (speaking of Paul) and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.

Paul was a tent-maker by trade and when he needed a break from his preaching he returned to his trade. As there was no book called "The Bible" at this time he could not have been a "Biblical Scholar." He WAS however an expert on the old law. Before his conversion he was considered a "Jew among Jews." (Galatians 1:14 - The wording is actually a bit different than that.)

As for the point of this topic, well Paul, who considered himself the worst sinner on Earth,

1 Timothy 1:15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

. . . still made this statement near the end of his life:

2 Timothy 4:7,8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Christians are perfectly justified in their confidence about salvation. I would, in fact, argue that you MUST be confident in your salvation, and that is not to say perfection, if you claim to have faith.

I encourage you to read the entire passages that these verses come from to find for yourself the full context of the quotes and to make sure that I am not taking them out of that contex.

Edit: Woa! more than I was intending.
Edit2: The actual "jew among jews" verse is Philippians 3:5 and is worded in the NAS version "a Hebrew of Hebrews."


It's pronounced "Spikes!"

[This message has been edited by SPyX (edited 10-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by SPyX (edited 10-17-2003).]

CFB: Were you ever corrected about your "why we worship on sunday" statement?

No I wasn't, but I'd be glad to be,

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

Good info there, Spyx. Paul was: Talmudic student. Pharisee. Tent-maker by trade.

I did answer CFB about worshipping on the first day of the week above.
[edit]I must have buried it too deep with my other replies... here it is again: "CFB, we have been worshipping on the first day of the week almost from the beginning. You will recall that Christ rose on Sunday and the early Xians gathered on that day in honor of that. "

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-17-2003).]

Ahh yes, now I see it. Thanks, I have a tendancy to start skimming through stuff without realizing I'm doing it. And I realize why the worship happens every 7 days, but why sunday?

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 10-17-2003).]

Worshiping on the first day of the week is based on sound biblical principle, as should be all beliefs that Christians hold. I will assume, for this explanation, that the three bases of biblical authority (direct command, approved example, and necessary inference) are accepted.

I will START this time by encouraging everyone to read the entire texts that I will be quoting from to more fully understand the context and to make sure that I am not taking the verses out of those contexts.

First, we are commanded to take an offering:

1 Corinthians 16:1,2 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come. (Direct command)

Then we are commanded to take what is now known as "The Lord's Supper":

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. (Direct Command)

Next, we have this passage:

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

Here we have several things going on.
1. We have an approved example of Paul and the church at Troas coming together on the first day of the week for the purpose of breaking bread.
2. Next we infer that "breaking bread" in this case means the same as it does in the first passage and does not refer to a common meal. We infer this because A. Paul's travel plans included provision for him to be there for this meal, B. He was there for a long time - past midnight speaking to the church, and C. returning to 1 Corinthians 11, because of Paul's condemnation of the church coming together mainly to eat a common meal together:

1 Corinthians 11:17-22 17 But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall praise you? In this I will not praise you.

So, we have authority and responsibility from the Bible to meet on "the first day of the week," which for us is Sunday, to take the Lord's Supper and to take a collection.

Now, we also have commands to sing, to pray, to preach, to study, and to be responsible for the members of our congregation. I'll skip those verses for now unless asked to show them. These we practice on Sunday because we are already together and these are a logical extention of this gathering. Practicing them on Sunday is a matter of convenience AND desire. This is not to lessen the importance of these aspects of worship at all, it is simply that the Lord Supper and collection are the only things we have biblical command to do ONLY on Sunday. And Lord Supper is commanded for EVERY Sunday.

I hope I've been clear in this. I had to rewrite the whole thing because of the stupid back button.

Of course, I must point out at this time, for the record, that any of the conclusions you draw from those sources, spyx, are pure conjecture as there is no real way to verify or even assume the truth of any statements of Jesus' divinity.

I understand that you may take the bible at face value, but you need to understand that you can't make anyone else beleive it by simply quoting it.

In response to the statement about why there aren't any miricles anymore... I seem to remember reading a passage in one bible that stated that God "removed his hand from the world". That he basically regretted what his interference had caused and vowed not to interfere anymore. I always thought that it was in/around/near the story of the flood but I'venever been able to find it. Does anyone have any idea where that passage can be found? I don't know which bible (NIV, KJ, or other) version it was that I read it in but the bible I read most is 150 years old. I've read probably 5 different renditions so the 5 most common might be the best place to look.

The passage stuck in my mind because I found it odd that an omnicient being would be capable of feeling regret when they would have had to have known what was happening. They would have seen the possible courses that could be taken and not taken the one that would have made them feel regretful. Hopefully someone can locate that passage for me. I'll conitnue looking but I haven't had any luck so far.

Could it have been this reference?

quote:

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And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Entire chapter found here: 1 Chronicles 21

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That would be the one. A little skewed in my memory but it still carries the weight of my facination with it. What do you guys feel is the character of God's omniciense? I think Bug's has touched on this before. Is it an all encompassing view of possibility/probability? Or is it actually knowing what is to come? In either case this story seems to either put God into a less welcoming light or point out that he doesn't know what is coming (Even if it isn't taken literally). Also - is God an emotional being and directly influencing things on earth or a being devoid of emotion and neutral in affecting our lives actively. Or any mixture of those I suppose.

quote:

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The passage stuck in my mind because I found it odd that an omnicient being would be capable of feeling regret when they would have had to have known what was happening. They would have seen the possible courses that could be taken and not taken the one that would have made them feel regretful. Hopefully someone can locate that passage for me. I'll conitnue looking but I haven't had any luck so far.

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Today is a Friday. That means that I had a math test, since they occur every Friday. I didn't know the material, and I knew that I didn't know the material. I also knew that I'd fail the math test. I failed the math test, and when it was graded (in class), I felt dissapointed with myself.

So you chose to fail the test then? By knowing that there is a test every Friday and not making point of knowing the material you CHOSE to fail the test.

The question is... did you know you would be disappointed with that choice? If so, Why on earth did you make it?

In my mind an omnicient being would know what said course of action would result in and how they felt about those results. What that passage says to me is that God did something he knew to be too much, knowingly and willingly allowing people to be slain when there would be no need for it. This assumes His omnicience. If he didn't know what was to come, I have a hard time seeing him as omnicient. Not only not omnicient, but fallible.

i'm sure the following is in the b-i-b-l-e, though they're not exactly quotes:

God is a jealous god
the wrath of God
God was greived
God was sorry
Jesus wept. (shortest verse in the Bible)
jesus was tempted in all points, even as we are (makes you wonder about sex, drugs, and rock and roll), yet without sin.

my point - i think a lot of people (bible thumpers) need to rethink their definition of

S-I-N

i know without a doubt, that if i live, i'm going to get old. and unless there's a BIG scientific breakthrough, or something supernatural happens, i'm going to physically DIE.
the thing is - i KNOW from personal experience that the supernatural is real. and that's what i'm counting on. besides, if i knew that i knew my fate (which i do, by the by) and i could explain it to you, it would sound to most people like a bunch of silliness. which brings me to something else from the B-I-B-L-E; God has chosen the foolish (silly) things of this world to confound the wise. i see this happening every day. if you look, i'm certain you do to.

and one last sorta quote - they wouldn't believe even if one did rise from the grave.

~jeremiah was a bullfrog~