Topic awaiting preservation: I'm glad I don't live in the EU *shakes head*

Recent poll in the EU labels Israel as worlds greatest threat.

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War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

The question of the poll was : "Which country do you consider as a threat to world peace ?"

59% - Israel
53% - Iran, North Korea, United States of America
52% - Iraq
50% - Afghanistan
>50% - Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Somalia, Russia, Syria, Pakistan

Mathieu "POÏ" HENRI

Would someone print this out for me? I'd like to mail it to Mr. Bush and see what he thinks about us being as threatening as North Korea.

-Xel

That poll have been done with 7,000 people across the 15 countries of EU. And honestly if I had been asked, I'd have answered:

#1 USA
#2 Pakistan
#3 Israel

Because, to me, those countries represent an imminent ( direct or indirect ) threat to world peace.
And, that poll neither makes me glad nor ashamed to be european.

I guess Mr. Bush would say that the USA are picked because of their "success" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Just MY 0.02?

Mathieu "POÏ" HENRI

[This message has been edited by poi (edited 11-07-2003).]

I would certainly agree with israel being very high on that list. Not necessarily 1st, but in the top few.

Why do you disagree with that classification CFB?

I would also agree, at the present time, with the US being high on the list.

Yes, I'd say that it is a pretty realistic poll. We are talking about a threat to World Peace here.

But we will have to wait, and see...

Now, if the poll had said which group, and had included Al Qaida...it would probably have looked somewhat different...

If by Isreal they mean the Jewish and Palestinian parts then I'd agree (they seem pretty intent on dragging each other inot Hell and they could easily take us all with them) although I'd quibble slightly with the order of the countries.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I agree with Emps... The Palestinian areas in question are actually within the Israeli borders. Their internal struggle is what makes that area such a volatile part of the world. With the rest of the Arab nations behind Palestine, that whole area of the world becomes a powder keg ready to blow.

The US is only a threat until we get Dubya out of office next year. The odds are pretty good that he won't be voted in again.
Hopefully, the democrats put up someone more exciting that the current selection of candidates...


Cell 617

Well, I think that there are plenty of candidates for a 'threat to world peace,' such as the US (yes them), and Iraq/Iran, and N. Korea. Isreal, I think, would be about fourth on my list.

cfb: Fair enough but that is your opinion and if you look at the numbers they are all pretty close and it is a survey. That doesn't really explain your title

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I'm going to have to go with:

1)Germany
2)Canada
3)New Zealand

Why Germany? Phhft... Well they have tried to take of the world like twice already, what?s a third anyhow?

Why Canada? Well sh*t, with their long and tiresome history of raping and pillaging they seem like an ideal example of whose going to attack first.

Why New Zealand? The farm animals, of course.

[Cell 1303]

Rooster: Good points - if we are going on previous 'form':

1. UK - The Sun never set on the Empire (because God doesn't trust an Englishman after dark).

2. Japan - no more railways please, even if they are those fancy bullet trains, and the cold weather experiments in northern China.......

3. Spain/Portugal - once a conquistador always a conquistador.

4. Belgium - you mess up one Congo really badly you can mess up another one just as easily.

5. Italy - I'm still not convinced they have put the Roman Empire behind them yet.

6. France - just because.

and on and on....................

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Not that this would come as a surprise to anyone, but North Korea would definitely be number one on my list. And looking at it from the standpoint of "Who do I think will most likely be involved in a breach of world peace," yeah, I can understand the choices.

Oh, and I enjoyed this statement from the Israeli embassy in Brussels:

quote:

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We are not only sad but outraged. Not at European citizens, but at those who are responsible for forming public opinion.

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What a nice way of saying, "You're all just a bunch of mindless sheep."


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Suho: www.liminality.org

Emps: Well, first of all, I don't think that Israel is up there at number one. In fact, I heavily beleive that. I can't see why (and the consensus here, and when I showed it to my teacher at school who showed it too the class) places like N Korea and the US and and China aren't up there before Israel. It's WORLD peace. Israel seems to be the little brother, everybody picks on them. All that they'd be endangering is the peace, well, in Israel. I think that it shows some anti-Jewish sentiments in the EU (they're everywhere, but more heavy in the EU than in America).

cfb: Right so we get down to it:

quote:

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I think that it shows some anti-Jewish sentiments in the EU (they're everywhere, but more heavy in the EU than in America).

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A couple of points:

1. By Isreal we mean both Jewish and Palestinian people and I'm equally fed up with the lot of them (in the same way I was fed up with the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland).

2. By criticizing the decisions of the Isreali government people are no more anti-Semetic than I am anti-British for criticising my own government (in fact it is not quite that it would be like being accused of being anti-Church of England for criticizing then British government). Being able to criticise governments poicy is a useful tool in world democracy - playing the anti-Semitism card is a poor tool for stiffling debate.

3. Its not a comment on Jewish people in general in the same way criticising the Palestinian authorities (for not doing enough to clamp down on terrorist activity and pro-terrorist reporting in the media) isn't anti-Moslem.

I'm sure that some people who criticise Israel are anti-Semitic but to link concern over Israeli policy with anti-Semitiism is crude and personally offensive.

There seems to be a general feeling that we Europeans are in general more anti-Semitic than the Americans but I believe such feelings are confined to the Far Right and extreme Moslem organisations as they are in the States and in fact (due to our history) we are far more sensitive to this kind of thing and have far more stringent laws on this kind of thing than you do in the States.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Please, Israeli government, excuse us arrogant europeans to believe in and use our freedom of speech. Sorry.
In the list of countries cited in the poll, I see many that IMO bark more than they bite thus my own list of imminent threats.

The way the medias relates the world news surely influeced the answers. I hardly hear about North Korea, Libya ... while I hear too often bad news about the USA and Israel. If those 2 countries goes few steps too far it could have some extremely dangerous conscequences for the rest of the world.

Emperor: I agree with your points. But why did you put France as #6 threat ? Nobody is afraid by us. Do you fear an attack of stinky cheeses and French baguettes ?

Mathieu "POÏ" HENRI

quote:

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By Isreal we mean both Jewish and Palestinian people and I'm equally fed up with the lot of them (in the same way I was fed up with the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland).

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I couldn't agree more. I am personally very tired of both side whining about the other side's evil ways....

quote:

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6. France - just because.

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No, come on now - Napolean ring a bell? And there are a number of 'Louis' that are more than ample historical evidence of France's looming threat to the world.
=)

CFB - I also still don't understand what you're sayin gin your title. Why are you glad exactly....? And Why are you shaking your head....?



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-08-2003).]

poi:

quote:

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I agree with your points. But why did you put France as #6 threat ? Nobody is afraid by us. Do you fear an attack of stinky cheeses and French baguettes ?

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LOL - I just thought I'd throw that one in but if you want:

1. Napoleon (as DL mentioned) - all false Emperors must die.

2. African imperialism still causing problems - Algeria being a big one but also Morrocco, ec.

3. Rainbow Warrior.

4. Paciifc nuclear tests in general.

5. Le Pen(is) - although you get points back for persistent and widescale graffiti on his posters

6. The Vichy Government and general collaboartion during the War.

7. Coming over here and stealing our women.

8. Onion sellers on bicycles with berets and stripy tops.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

CFB :

I'm glad I don't live in the EU *shakes head*

You know, people is the same everywhere. If you feel some resent against Europe because of this poll, let me tell you I could find dozens of such polls that would ashame you from living where you live.

Most people rarely think by themselves and accept as true everything that comes from the medias. In France, I have the feeling that the medias are slightly supporting Palestians. I don't know if this is the same worldwide, or at least in Europe, but I think that this is partially the cause of this anti-semitism.

This said, I'm not going to dwell into this complex issue, I just wanted to say that as long as the two sides will be convinced to be right, and as long as nobody in the world wants to move his arse to do something, this war will last forever.

Emps :

7. Coming over here and stealing our women.

LMAO

Now I know what is the origin of this everlasting enmity between the French people and the English people

quote:

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7. Coming over here and stealing our women.

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Not to mention that whole taking over the entire british empire for a few hundred years, hopelessly mutilating your language, politics, and heritage.

(thankfully, they didn't seem to get their grubby hands on your Beer =)





[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-08-2003).]

I must admit that my first reaction to CFB's title and link were of me nodding my head in agreement. My gut reaction is to think that Europe is just as hateful of the Jewish people as their history has played out. Ironically, Jews have been slaughtered and persecuted by Christian Europe far more than Islamic Middle East for many of the past centuries. BUT thankfully I haven't been able to post to this until now and it has allowed me a little time to reflect.

Polls are very difficult things to properly interpret. I recently heard an interview with Jean Francois Revel who pointed out that many of the "common folk" in France, for example, are not anti-American nearly as much as the elite of that country. I would very much like to believe that is the case. It is true here in the states that many of our elite don't speak for the majority opinion so I know how that works and Moon Shadow you make a good point on that. I would equally like to believe that the opinion expressed in this poll is not rooted in anti-Semitism as much as it is rooted in an understanding of the term "world peace" as simply "an absence of war".

But I should think that Emps, poi, MS, and others can speak more for the EU since we only get a partial view from this country. I believe there are truly good and sincere people in Europe who may have put Israel at the top of the list but really aren't anti-Semitic overtly. I don't believe for a second that Emps or Moon Shadow are anti-Semitic because I think they are doing their level best to treat the Israeli Jews and the Palestinians fairly.

This is a noble goal and a proper one, IMO. However, there is a danger of putting this goal higher than the facts of the current situation such that we get a clouded view. A few years ago, I would have echoed the "cycle of violence" and "both sides are equally to blame" explanations for the Israeli/Palestinian dilemna. After learning more about the history of the region and learning more about the current positions of both sides I am convinced that the extreme side of the Palestinians is the *primary* reason we will not see peace in that region for generations to come.

I will state this very clearly, I believe the Israelis are ready for a compromise and a peace plan to be hammered out but the Palestinians are still holding on to the hope they can remove the Israeli state from existence. It sounds so extreme it is hard to believe but the facts lead me to no other conclusion.

Before I'm misunderstood I must say that the Israelis are NOT perfect by any stretch of the imagination BUT they are an operating democracy with 25% Arab citizenry and they are able to debate both sides of the issue freely within their own government and social confines without resorting to internal violence. The Palestinians on the other hand are basically controlled by terrorist organizations and those who criticize the hard line against Israel are silenced... too often with violence. The next generation of Israeli children are taught concepts of peace and tolerance in their schools yet Palestinian children's programming actually feature songs of martyrdom and praise for the intifada.

I can no longer see them in equal light but I have not given up hope either. I want a solution there for BOTH sides. This means that the Palestinians have far more work to do than the Israelis. There should be two states just as the UN set up back in 1948. Israel has a head start but it is never too late for the Palestinians to finally accept the Jews are there to stay and get down to the job of building and living side by side as opposed to hanging on to something that the US will not allow to happen which is to undo what was done when the Jewish state was first established.


One more thought comes to mind when I read these responses and that is how we're defining "world peace". I think this came up in another thread. If by "peace" we simply mean the "absence of conflict" then I have no problem with putting the US and Israel at the top of the list.

But that is NOT the definition of "world peace" I prefer to go by. If we just want to eliminate conflict then we might as well just establish a global totalitarian state right now and stop beating around the bush. Because that is the only way we'll be able to make sure no one steps out of line.

. . : slicePuzzle

Bugs :

I have to admit that Jews have been persecuted by Christians in Europe since a very long time. But in fact, it wasn't for their religion that Jews were persecuted. They were persecuted because they were a minority. To the best of my knowledge, there were similar persecutions worldwide. In the USA, I believe you did the same with Indians right ? In France, soon after the economic crisis everybody was feeling a lot of anger, but there wasn't anybody to blame for this. So they chose to blame the Jews because they were a minority. When Hitler started his war, who were his targets ? Minorities : Jews, crippled people, gipsies. History is filled up with such examples. It's the way humans behave, not European people behave.

About French people, well, we never were anti-American. I believe this is what your medias wanted the American people to think, but this is not true. Some extremists tried to boycott your products in answer to your 'boycott', but they were rare and had very little success. And I don't know personally anybody in France who is anti-American. This said, I always have the feeling that our leaders are truly stupid, even more than common folks. I wouldn't be surprised if nowadays being anti-American was the latest fashion for posh VIPs in France. Talk about intelligence :sigh:

As to me, I am not anti-Semitic at all, but I would have placed Israel on the top rankings in this list, along with the Arab countries surrounding it. Both are extending this conflict worldwide, both are trying to implicate other countries in this conflict.

I also have to say that it is impossible for me to judge one side next to the other. I studied the history of this region as well, and I must say both sides are responsible for this mess. It all began when the British governement promised to find an answer to the Jewish emigration in Israel. The situation was already explosive therefore they let the issue into the hands of the ONU. Who did nothing. And Palestians and Israelians started fighting. Now fifty years later both of them don't respect any agreement anymore. It's been twenty years that Israel signed an agreement that would force the governement to retire its troops from a lot of occupied territories, and did nothing. It's been twenty years that Palestinians are raiding Israel to gain access to their lost territories, and to water. It's been fifty years that each death is answered by another death. I personally believe that beyond a certain point, there are no more responsibles. Too much blood has been poured in the sands now for me to decide which side should be right and which side should be wrong. Both are wrong.
Let's take an example : if you surprised two of your children quarreling with each other, what would you do ? Would you try to punish the one who started, or would you consider that even though one of them started, the second one was wrong to reply in a bad way ? No matter the circumstances, I personally would consider that both were wrong.

You also evocated the efforts made in Israel to educate the young. This is a good news to me, I didn't know that. In fact, I often had the feeling that although Israel is a democracy, most adult people were thinking about electing someone that would "settle" the "Palestinian problem" definitely, if you see what I mean. On the contrary, I sensed that most Palestinians were sick of their corrupted leaders, whereas the young were all ready to enlist in extremist organizations. It is quite scary to watch them on TV, ready to die in the name of their God. Another reason for me to blame religion : it tends to create extremists. Why on Earth these people feel this need to kill each for a religious issue and just can't live together in harmony ?

Defining what is peace is also a very interesting question. I'll quote Spinoza : "Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice." But even if I agree with this definition, I would still place the USA in this list. Why ? Because I have the feeling that a good part of the Americans really wanted the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq to happen. Even if in the end they wished peace, I don't think that a people able to inflict a war to another country understands this concept of peace I quoted.

Bugs:

quote:

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But I should think that Emps, poi, MS, and others ( ... ) I don't believe for a second that Emps or Moon Shadow are anti-Semitic because ...

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Since you named me few lines above, I hope you don't think I'm anti-Semitic.

To be honest I don't know enough the history of the Israelian and Palestinian ( btw I name them in alphabetical order ) issues to figure who is responsible of what. But like Moon Shadow, I don't care to know who throw the first stone. They are both responsible. If they have a real will to stop the conflicts, they should be able to respect a complete cease fire during few months and eventually let some UN troops and observers in the difficult areas if needed. At least they should be "mature" enough to break the law of Thalion ( an eye for an eye, a teeth for a teeth ) which lead them to nothing but more casualties on both side. And yes, Palestinian should have their own country too.

The History is full of examples of countries who fought in the past and are friend now. As Emperor said, the only issues remaining between the people of some of these countries are about the girls but we ( I ) can live with that.

About anti-American, I would rather say that I don't share Mr. Bush way of doing peace, and being not a patriot myself, I don't understand the blind confidence of an important part of the US citizen in their president.

Mathieu "POÏ" HENRI

You know, I'm slightly embarassed posting this, but, I realized that I've been confusing two things:

1. "Threat to word pleace." and
2. "Threat to the world."

See, when I read the article, I got the two confused (mistaking threat to world peace as threat to world peace). I still wouldn't place them in the numero-one spot, but they'd still be in my top 4. Anyways, sorry for the mistake, but it's still an interesting article.

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

lmao@Emps... totally nuts...



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 11-25-2003).]

quote:

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The US is only a threat until we get Dubya out of office next year. The odds are pretty good that he won't be voted in again.

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Don't bet on that bodhi.
I heard an interesting and to me a somewhat discouraging statistic the other day.

No sitting President has lost an election if, he has not been challenged within his own party's leadership race.

And lets face it. Nobody challenges the guy who got you there.

I'd like to see dubbya make some history. =)

Oh Man! Don't say things like that... I've got to have a little hope left!

(pleasepleaseplease let a good democratic candidate come forward at the last minute!)