Topic awaiting preservation: Undecided Religion Questions Part 2

I enjoy following along but, for the sake of download time and bandwidth, I hope you all will carry on the Undecided Religion Questions conversation here.


Emp edit: Adding link to old thread]

out edit: thanks Emp-you my hero

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 11-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 11-13-2003).]

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There are two great powerful instutitions in the world today who without them we would not have a world. They are:

The Catholic Church and the United States of America.

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The fall of communism in Poland and Russia was due to Pope John Paul the II

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Now Jade! you are either insane or simply ignorant. I am not even gonna bother explaining you the history lesson you should have learned in 10th grade....
I never imagined people as ignorant as you ever existed, this is pathetic.
I am not even going to bother explaining you Jade, it's simply shame.
I come from soviet union and so do my parents and I know exactly why it fell. If you are so dumb to relize the fact, forget it..... and jade, USA someday will fall,in a sense it will go through depresion just like any other nation....accept the fact, its not THE BEST, its NOT GOING TO BE THE BEST, it NEVER WAS THE BEST. It simply currently has leading army, and that IS.

added: and Jade, you know nothing about Soviet Union nor communism so don't even bother talking about it.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 11-13-2003).]

DL

Are you insane? Or perhaps blind....deaf maybe? Once again, you pull out cliche, dogma, and scripture to blindly defend a situation rather than actually looking at the situation itself.

What situation?


Yes, I have a very negative view of the catholic church. How does this have anything to do with your presumption in ragard to my level of compassion for individuals?


The Catholic church are made up of individuals.

What exactly turned you away from God. Pride? The real world? Rejection?


The pure falshood, contradictions, hypocrasy, and arrogance of the church turned me away from the church. I wasn't turned away from god, because there is no god.

This is very confusing coming from you. Whos falsehood? Whos contridictions? Whos hyprocrasy? And whos arrogance? Are you referring to certain individuals? Who were they? So you judged your fall from grace on people's acts or personalities? So people let you down. Not God. So God got blamed for how people carried on with their lives even though they professed to be God believers. Seems to me you put your trust in people's characater only. Not God.

I wasn't turned away from god, because there is no god.

You cannot prove this. If so, give me the facts.

The fall of communism in Poland and Russia was due to Pope John Paul the II

WHOA! I think that is just a bit of an overstatement there Jade!!

Well, you must read a book by a famous investigative unbias journalist, Carl Bernstein (broke Watergate Scandal). The book is called "His Holiness" and it reveals a lot of info on the workings behind the scenes which led up to the fall of communism in Poland & USSR. I don't think Carl would be classified as insane. Currently the Pope is working on the fall of communism in Cuba via ambassadors and emmisaires. So the Vaticans workings to achieve a peace is not done to make front page headlines. Here are two sites with some info you might read:
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pope/communism
www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance1of2.html


Yes, she certainly did. Mother Theresa played an amazing role world wide and should be remembered forever for the things she accomplished and the selfless work she did for so many.
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A small tiny woman made a hugh monumental difference.
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Yep. She did. Not the catholic church. Yes, she was a catholic. That is irrelevent to me. She did these things - as you said yourself - "on her own". 1 out of billions that made such an impact....am I supposed to be wowed by the greatness of the church because of that...?

Well I guess Mother Theresa did it for the love of God. The fact that she was
a Catholic wouldn't for sure have no bearing according to your way of thinking.
And she is a role model (saint) for her efforts in giving her life to the poor and destitute for all people. The important thing is she professed Catholicism and put all her efforts into her mission of discipleship for the glory of her church on earth


without them we would not have a world. They are:

The Catholic Church and the United States of America.
Once again I have to ask.....are you insane??

Well.... No. I am not insane. Just looking how both have and are continuing to be caretakers of the world in the area of peace and human suffering.

As far as atheism is concerned - once again, you are doing two things: judging me based on your perceptions of other people who claim to be atheists, and assuming that being an atheist means having a specific doctrine of belief. It most certainly does not. It means I don't beleive in god(s). Period.

Your accusing me of thinking the same way you think of Catholics in judging by individuals.

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So you judged your fall from grace...

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What fall from grace would that be?

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So people let you down. Not God.

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Nobody "let me down". I made a decision not to be a part of a group who's actions and outlooks I disagreed with.
Nope, 'god' didn't let me down because 'god' does not exist.

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Seems to me you put your trust in people's characater only. Not God.

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Right. Because there is no god. =)

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I wasn't turned away from god, because there is no god.

You cannot prove this. If so, give me the facts.

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Nope, I sure can't. And you can't prove that god does exist. That discussion has been had many times. You cannot prove that god does exist any more than I can prove he does not. Period. Any assumption you make in regard to the existence of god is pure opinion.

I have said many many times, Jade, that I am not judging catholics as a whole for their faith. It is very clear that there is a very large seperation between the vatican and the millions of followers. The vatican is an organization. A heirarchy. A government. You can no more judge every catholic by the actions of the vatican than you can judge every american based on the actions of the presidential administration.

You on the other hand, have no problem judging me based on your perception of what an "atheist" should be. When it gets questioned, you simply say "well that's what you do!".

This is wrong for two reasons.

1) That's *not* what I do. Not in the slightest. I have in fact proven this to you repeatedly. But you prefer to ignore reality when it doesn't agree with you.

2) Even if it was what I do, using that as your excuse for your actions is infantile - it's what small children do when they don't know any better.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-13-2003).]

It is very clear that there is a very large seperation between the vatican and the millions of followers. The vatican is an organization. A heirarchy. A government. You can no more judge every catholic by the actions of the vatican than you can judge every american based on the actions of the presidential administration.

What you are referring to is the magisterium of the church of which is an essential part of the kindgom on earth. Without the magisterium the church will not stand. The majestic of the church is the royal body which is subject to the "Vicar of Christ" on earth, who is subject to the King who is Christ only. If your familiar with Scripture" when the savior arrived, so did the kingdom. In the gospel verse when Jesus starts his ministry and reads from the Torah in his native synaguge, he says to the Jews "Today in your hearing the scriptures are fulfilled." So the kingdom is here. So doesn't the kingdom need a king? Yes. But the king had to go away and until the king returns, the kingdom needs a ruler to keep the subjects in check. Whoever taps into Christ and wants to be a follower, they are joined into Christ kingdom. It is in this kingdom the shepherd keeps the sheep for the owner of the field. How does the pope go about this in the world today? With the help of the holy spirit he administers, guides, protects in the name of Christ and if this means in trying to try to make a better world he has to deal with politicians, goverments, beauracacy or whatever, so be it. If you resent the vaticans involvement in politics around the world, there are billions who are grateful for it. The Vatican is by far the most powerful state in the world and it is so tiny. It has no huge army or nucelar bombs. It has the office of the greatest spiritual power and that alone can move mountains.

Strange, Protestan/Christians seem not to need any of those silly things such as huge and pretty buildings with an old geezer as a "king" with a big collections of pretty hats, then bellow him there is a cardinal with little red beanies and bellow there is a priest without a hat, so what is it? is it based on size of a hat? the bigger the hat the more important the guy is? are you forgeting that all people are equal?
I tell you what Jade, you fail to relize that communism had alot of positive effect on countries, it gave people equality and freedom as well food and dont forget education. Until it was overthrown and controled by dictator. No longer people startved under Czar who lives in all this mansion and eats all he wants, but does nothing about people just sends them to war.
You seem to be living in dark ages Jade, its time to move on...


edit:typo




[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 11-13-2003).]

Ruski

I would think that Protestants too are tapped into the kingdom of Christ the King if they are totally submissive to his message.

If you chose to rid of the ceremonial rituals or sacramentals and go straight to the source, good luck to you. But in general usually in an earthy Kingdom or in goverment hierarchy in order to get to the king or president or head you must go thru the right protocol to get a personal visit. Meaning you would have to go thur red tape to ask for an audience. They helping you to see the man in charge. Being that God the Supreme creator and almighty is the creator of all these important persons, I would think one would not ascend straight to God without going thur some needing assistance in a spiritual way be it here or in the heavens.

Of course, given that my opinion is very clear as to the existence of god, you have to see how absurd your explanation is to me, Jade...

Even if I were to beleive in the existence of god, the idea that I need to go through a human heirarchy to have an understanding of or a relationship with that god is just.....ridiculous.

You justify the treatment of the divine by citing inherently erroneous human monarchies?

How can the two compare....?

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-13-2003).]

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Being that God the Supreme creator and almighty is the creator of all these important persons, I would think one would not ascend straight to God without going thur some needing assistance in a spiritual way be it here or in the heavens.

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and thats why there is christ, jade...and protestants have only christ.
what is it with you all of sudden? you cant "feel" his love? nor guide anymore?
what happened? isnt the Christ the supreme being going to help you? all of sudden you need a MAN to guide you? whats up with the miracles, dont they work anymore?


Jade point me out to bible where does it says I have to go through all those ceremonies and such? WHERE in bible does it mentions you have to baptize CHILDREN? and confess to priest? where does it says in bible I must go through priest or cardinal or pope before I can reach and contact Christ?
I think it staits pretty clear in bible's new testament, that no one shall stand between a person and god only christ.
so care to explain why would anyone ever need to disobey the "word of god", dont you simply know that all these ceremonies are simply oppinions? and they are never mentioned in source/bible that you should fallow them? they way catholics do...




[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 11-13-2003).]

ruski - you cracked me up with the hat bit

jade - you seem to be intelligent as far as ritual, ceremony and history but you seem to be somewhat ignorant of what is actually in the bible. the very purpose for the existance of christ was to take away the need for sacrifices and mediators, and allow us each to "go boldly to the throne of God".

dl - i hope when you say there is no god that you haven't really closed your mind to the possibility that there is

I don't completely discount the possibility that there is a god. In the same way, however, I don't discount the possibility that the earth is just part of a molecule of goop stuck under the toenail of a giant pink monster...

And I can honestly say that I don't find either possibility totally absurd.

I do, however, find the human attachment to melodrama and ceremony concerning such possibilities to be completely absurd.

I find political and corporate organizations which pose as religious institutions both absurd and harmful.

I find the institutions that have arisen around the idea of gods throughout all of history to be absurd.
I find the human habit of substituting that institution for the religion to be equally absurd.

{{edit -

And I have to add, for clarification:

Jade - your long explanation attempting to justify the governing body of the catholic church only serves to further convince me of my point. I am not arguing what church dogma says - that is plan silly, since what I am arguing is that the said dogma is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Too much focus on fluff...not enough content.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-14-2003).]

jade - you seem to be intelligent as far as ritual, ceremony and history but you seem to be somewhat ignorant of what is actually in the bible. the very purpose for the existance of christ was to take away the need for sacrifices and mediators, and allow us each to "go boldly to the throne of God

Outcydr
Ok. I admit I am no bible scholar. But"go bodly to the thone of God" doesn't
really specify in detail anything. You really can't tell much from 6 words. What book is it in and which verse. And if its true we don't need mediators today, why do people ask for other people to pray to God for them. Shouldn't a person pray to God so he can get well on his own with no help of prayers from others if you believe the way you do. I think people mediate for other people all the time to God. And if this is true, why should God listen to someone other than the person who is sick. Aren't we pleading on a persons behalf to God, sort of like mediating for them. What about all the people that are in heaven with God? Can they mediate for us. Revelations says they do. The gospel in saying we need only one mediator and that mediator is Jesus Christ is because when he died for you and me he mediated on our behalf by suffering and dying on the cross.

Ruski
I covered a lot of info on why I am not a "bible Chrisitian only" in the thread "Catholics and other christians". If you want to look it up in the archives, I hope it is still there for you to read along.

I didnt ask why you are not " bible christian only"

I am asking you to prove where does it says in a bible that you should do all those ceremonies, rituals, confesions to priests, baptizing children and so on

and why do you always seem to change the subjest?



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 11-14-2003).]

Evidently you are not understanding me.

Your asking me to prove my the reason for catholic rituals, ceremonies, baptism only if I can get it from the bible. They are all bible based from history along with the traditions of the church and the power of the holy spirit.

If you really want me to I will get some rituals and ceremonies and along with baptism will go into why we do them and how they go along with scripture. So I will get back with you on it.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-14-2003).]

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What book is it in and which verse.

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Maybe you should seek it out for yourself. (hell, i don't remember...i may not have even quoted it correctly)

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Shouldn't a person pray to God so he can get well on his own with no help of prayers from others if you believe the way you do. etc...

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See, jade. I think this is part of the problem you have with people here. I never said I believed what I said. For all you know, I might be an atheist or I might be a frog in a pond. Maybe I believe in prayer...or going to the doctor...or both...maybe I've never been sick a day in my life, so I wouldn't really understand...maybe I believe in faith...no matter what you believe in, or if you believe in nothing, faith is a (possibly THE most) powerful thing. Maybe you have it in control or,... maybe it's controlling you.

edit: jeremiah was a bullfrog


[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 11-15-2003).]

Jade - Outcydr pointed out one of the big problems you seem to create for yourself, and I feel obligated to address this other one:

what does any of that big paragraph about praying and mediators acutally have to do with anything??

What point are you trying to make there? With that nightmarish jumble of thoughts on the issue, how can you possibly feel that you have given any real thought to such things?

You always say that you have thoroughy questioned and tested your faith...and yet whenever a simple question is posed, you stumble all over yourself trying to make excuses and "debunk" someone else's theory outright and offhand, without ever even actually thinking about it....

You've done this constantly here....

Don't you think that maybe it's a good idea to think things through once in a while....? (that's a real question...not a rhetorical one).

Well, since our resident Bible scholar is apparently not involved in this conversation, I guess I'll have to fill in. I think the verse outcydr(?) referred to is Hebrews 4:16. I'll quote from verse 14 to give the context:

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Therefore, since we have a gret high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

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This quote is from the New International Version; in the King James Version, verse 16 reads: "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." I think that's where outcydr got the quote (sorry if I've got the wrong inmate here... I haven't been following this thread from the beginning).

Anyway, my take on the passage: simply put, since we have Jesus Christ as our intercessor in Heaven, we should be confident in approaching God ourselves. Before Christ, the high priests interceded for the Jews on earth, but now Jesus is the high priest, allowing us to go straight to the throne of God.

That doesn't mean we don't need spiritual leaders, and James does say "Confess your sins to each other" (James 5:16). Still, as Christians we have the privilege of approaching God directly without the need for an earthly intercessor. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with confessing sins to a priest, as it may help to relieve guilt, but I don't think it should stop there--I believe sins should be confessed directly to God as well.

Those are just a few thoughts. Like I said, I haven't been following this thread (the first thread, I mean), so I don't really know what's going on, but from the looks of it this is not something I really want to get involved in. I just wanted to provide the scripture that was being discussed.


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

Ruski these are three rituals. I will give you more if you want to know about marriage, holy orders and anointing of the sick and I will explain.

The Mass ceremony is our greatest form of ultimate prayer in where we consider heaven and earth meet in our total communion with God, saints and angels and all earthy Mass attendants thur liturgy of the word and eucharist. We worship with keeling, standing, bowing and professing with incense, holy water and candles. This is taken too from Revelations. In the apostle Johns exile to Patmos where he is exiled he cannot attend Mass so God thura vision brings the Mass to John. In the angels opening up of the scrolls, we consider the liturgies and the lamb slaughterd but standing, the sacrifice and where there are candles and incense and alleluias that the angels worship the risen lamb with we memorialize.

SACRAMENTAL RITUALS

Baptism ritual - We baptize infants to initate them into the faith of the family of the church. We don't wait till the child grows and picks what he wants to believe. Like teaching them to speak, walk, and learn about life, we start early from when they can understand who God is with the lessons of faith so they can grow with faith. Its similar in the iniation of being part of a select group and pledging alligence to it. In the ritual the family promises to God to bring up the child in faith. If their level of faith is weak, the child will get weak teaching. Baptism will not save the child if it grows to adulthood and falls into weakness of a mortal wound and dies with it on its soul. In this ritual the parents become accountable for the soul of the child if he did not get rooted in faith. This ritual is biblical from John the Baptist and Jesus Christ himself in the Gospels. We have held on to this tradition because we are called by Christ to do so. Per John the baptist "I will baptize you with water and the one who come after me will baptize you with the holy spirit. "

Confession- We practice this like a washing of our bodies for cleanliness and against bad order. Just as important as keeping our bodies clean, its more important to keep our souls clean with a periodic cleansing because we believe a soul can overload with filth and bad order of the evil. After a confession to a priest who is thru sacramental mystery in the person of Christ himself, he has the power to forgive sins. This is biblical from Christ to his apostles. " Go and forgive in my name" and from John the Baptist "Repent, Repent and be saved" After a heartfelt confession, the soul is in the state of grace until it commits a moral sin against God. Depending on its degree of sin will determine if the persons needs a confession. Venial (lite)sins do not need a confession of a priest. We are usually asked to do a penance depending on the gravity of the sin. It is usually prayers.

Holy Communion: We are prepared for this sacred sacrament to be in total union with all 3 persons of the trinity through a communion by receiving a consecrated host transformed thur transubstanciation by a priest in changing of the bread and wine to the real body and blood of Christ. This is biblical tradition from book of Exodus and Gosples. We do this in remembrance of Christ death and sacrifice for us because Christ himself asked us to do it in remembrance of him at the Last Supper. We don't crucify Christ all over again. The ceremony is a mystical sacrament and necessary for our salvation and is mostly performed in Mass with a community of believers all praying for one another and all the believer who have left in friendship of Christ but have not ascended to heaven yet.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-21-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-21-2003).]

Even if I were to beleive in the existence of god, the idea that I need to go through a human heirarchy to have an understanding of or a relationship with that god is just.....ridiculous.

DL

OK....Since you wouldn't go thur a a human heirarcy to believe in the existance of God, (which is not what we do) I am just curious how you would go about it? That is, if you attempted to give God another chance.