Topic awaiting preservation: Am I the only one who is terrified by the prospect of going to heaven?

Firstly I need to clarify something: I am not a christian, I do not believe in God. Personally, I believe that the majority of religions are a result of wishful thinking.
Anyway...the main reason for being a Christian is to be rewarded by God and go to heaven for eternity when you die, assuming that he exists, yes? As far as I know, thats the main motivator for the majority of Christians. This concept basically terrifies me. Everyboy wants to live for eternity in bliss yes? The possibility of living for eternity is simply the worst punishment I can imagine (save for living in hell nad being tortured for eternity). Its difficult to explain, but the possibility of living for eternity is one I simply do not wish to even contemplate.

Am I alone in this view?

Wrayal

Go to kimber-ja.demon.co.uk and click on the link to the raytracer!

wrayal:

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I am not a christian, I do not believe in God. Personally, I believe that the majority of religions are a result of wishful thinking.

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Sooooo why do you believe in Heaven?

Why not create an afterlife for your own belief system - some suggestions:

1. We all merge with the conciousness of the Universe.

2. We come back as something/someone else.

3. You are snuffed out like a candle and that is all there is - an eternity of non-existence.

I'm afraid I suspect option 3 is closer to what happens and that scares the piss out out of me but what if you get the afterlife you think you are going to?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Sorry. Stupidly I did not say - I don't believe in heaven! But the idea scares me as I said!
Personally, as scientists have proved that consciousness is separate from volition (and therefore free will and consciousness itself are simply illusions), I find the possibility that you are simply "snuffed out like a candle" by far the most probable. Frankly, I find that far more comforting than the possibility of living for ever

NOTA BENE! I am not suicidal - not in the least!

Wrayal

Go to kimber-ja.demon.co.uk and click on the link to the raytracer!

Why be scared of something you don't believe in? There must be some doubt in your mind about whether or not you have chosen the correct path or you wouldn't be asking the question.

The religions of the world just may be the result of wishful thinking. They may also all be a control device used by the machines who watch over us and call themselves God. But they may also be true. You just don't know until the end. All you can do is choose your path and have faith that you are right. That is all anybody can do.

Even if you don't believe in God, there is a little truth to everything, even in something you may consider fiction. Religion to me is more than just going to Heaven when I die, it is a way to live a good and clean life, and if it makes people feel like their existence has meaning, then more power to it. It brings hope, and without hope, what real reason do we have to go on? I say none, what's the point.

EDIT: Science proves a lot of things wrong. Then again, science has also been known to make mistakes, because they, like all humans, are not perfect. Do not make your decisions in life based on what other humans tell you, follow your heart and think for yourself.



[This message has been edited by Ramasax (edited 11-17-2003).]

Background for those who don't know: I am a (very liberal) Christian.

Before I became a Christian (I've always grown up in a Christian household, but untill about three years was a fairly adamant athiest) I found the prospect of heaven to be very scary, even though I didn't beleive in it (or maybe I subcounsciously did, I'm not sure). When I put myself in the shoes of a Christian, I couldn't see how in the hell they could find living for eternity to be the ultimate reward. Even after I became a Christian I still had doubts, but I still understood the falacy in my thinking:

Heaven is (in the Christian world) a place where there is no sin. According to my train of though, without sin you would have no pain, death etcetera. About a year ago, I became fairly suicidal, and I returned to my previous train of though: Why in the fuck would I want to live for eternity like this. But after that feeling passed, I soon returned to the preconceived notion of Heaven. Right now, at this point in my life, I'm not sure what to think about Heaven. You see, among other things, I like to sit at my computer and paint while listening to Monster Magnet and chat with freinds about various topics and debate with people. If no sin exists, well, then I won't be able to do that. So, the thing that scares me most about heaven is the prospect of having my interest snuffed out. I mean: Will art exist? What about the kind of art I enjoy? How about music? How about the kind of music I enjoy? How about debate? If everyone has the same views and is coming from the same viewpoint and moral stance, then I won't be able to argue, which is one of my favorite hobbies.

Now, there are two ways to look at this: The first is the worst possible way to think of Heaven, merely the alternative to Hell. This is what really fucks up a lot of Christians. If the whole basis for them being a Christian is not going to Hell, then they have no basis for their faith other than fear, and well...that isn't a foundation at all. The second is the better way: Now, lets get this straight: I don't take everything printed in the Bible at face value, I am extremely skeptical of many things printed in the Bible, but in general, I beleive that basic messages in it. And, if you'll exuse me saying this, the Bible says that Heaven is so glorious and magnificent that it is unimaginable, which to me means that I can't possibley fathom how incredibley awesome it is.

There you have it. From my point of view.

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

Rama:
"Why be scared of something you don't believe in? There must be some doubt in your mind about whether or not you have chosen the correct path or you wouldn't be asking the question."

I don't pretend to speak for Wrayal, but this is what I think, personally. I am pretty much an athiest, who follows the words "Because I haven't seen it proven to me yet". The way things work for me is, when I see a puzzle I've never seen before, and can't figure it out, I say "I don't know. I can't figure out the answer, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. At the same time, there might not be an answer. Hm." (/action ponders about it for awhile.) At the moment, I don't believe in God and Heaven and Hell and such things. That *doesn't* mean that I don't have doubts, however. For the moment, I am taking my guess at the puzzle presented before me and seeing how that plays out. I don't know if my guess is right or wrong, but I do know it might help me find an answer, one way or another. I have occasionally wondered to myself if maybe these things I think right now are wrong. I've wondered; "What the heck would God do to those who don't believe in him because they aren't really sure, and admit that they don't really know?"

So, if that didn't make much sense, it's very possible to not believe in something, yet have doubts and possibly be a bit scared or curious or wondering about it all, because maybe you think your answer to the puzzle isn't right anymore, or you're not sure.

Apologies for that roundabout, but... eh, I don't see an easy way to say it, Heh.

-Xel
[edit; added quotation mark.]


[This message has been edited by Xel (edited 11-17-2003).]

Xel wrote:

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I am pretty much an athiest, who follows the words "Because I haven't seen it proven to me yet".

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Bad news, you may never get that proof, it's about faith, no irrefutable evidence. If God showed up one day and said, "Behold," faith would turn to fact and your free-will to make the choice on your own would be gone. You'd simply believe.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling a lot of people have been pushed away from God because there are plenty of unsavory characters who say and do things in the name of religion. They have been turned away by men, and God takes the blame.

What you have to realize is that the majority of Christians in this world you don't even notice. They live their lives and mind their own business like everyone else. They will tell you about their religion, but only if you inquire or seem interested. The ones who try to force feed you religion and then get angry when you reject it are hypocrites. They may believe in God, zealously in some cases, but are missing the point. You cannot judge a religion based on those who profess to follow it and then make fools of themselves.

In the end, we all have to make the choice for ourselves. I have studied both sides of the coin. For a long time I was big on Evolution, as it was such an intriguing concept. It just didn't add up to me though. I believe in natural selection, species can adapt. But I just do not see one species transforming into another. Last I heard that missing link is still just that, missing. And life from non-life, well not without some kind of intervention. I do not see how any logic loving scientist would go for that either.

I'm tired and rambling, time for bed.

Actually, Ramasax, that 'missing link' has been found - it was discussed here awhile back.

As for Heaven, Hell, or whatever, don't worry so much about it - you can't avoid it, anyway. Everybody will find out, in the End. Spend more time thinking about the now, it's fleeting enough...

My first post wasn't very good, was it? I've had to clarify a few things.
I do not believe in heaven, its completely hypothetical - If I were to believe in heaven, I should say.
</clarification>

I have been Christian for most of my life - in fact I have only been atheist for a few months. This had nothing to do with going to heaven BTW, but I do have views from both sides of the fence.

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Spend more time thinking about the now, it's fleeting enough

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WTF? the point is (according to Chrsitians) that since now is so fleeting, being happy in the afterlife is far more important, so praise God now. (and naturally all the counter-arguments - if there is no God, your wasting the only short time u have etc.)

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I just do not see one species transforming into another.

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The point is that this is exactly what does not happen. A single reproduction cannot just randomly give a new, viable species - it requires many generrations to even produce a small change. I'm sure u understand how evolution (supposedly) works. If u have a particular problem with evolution, Id be happy to take up the point.


Personally, I would rather go to hell (in all its 'unimaginable' horror) for a very long time if, eventually, it will all finish and I will be 'snuffed out'.

Go to kimber-ja.demon.co.uk and click on the link to the raytracer!

[This message has been edited by wrayal (edited 11-17-2003).]

Found this explanation on heaven & hell from a site. Sorry for long post but couldn't post site. If any other faith has its doctrine of heaven, I would be interested to see if they are similar to the Christian view.

II. HEAVEN

Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:
We define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.

This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness. To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ," but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.
For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.
By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ. This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."
Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":
How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
IV. HELL

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth." God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"

The Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:
All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."
The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death. The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation." It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."
VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:
The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.

Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."

In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men."He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away. For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community. The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.
"We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."
"Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."
"When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom." God will then be "all in all" in eternal life
True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life. Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead. "We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ's grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies" Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God. By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf. Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death" also called "hell." Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.




[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-17-2003).]

Without reading the thread, I'm just going to pop in here and ask, isn't heaven, by definition, impossible to not enjoy?

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WTF? the point is (according to Chrsitians) that since now is so fleeting, being happy in the afterlife is far more important, so praise God now. (and naturally all the counter-arguments - if there is no God, your wasting the only short time u have etc.)

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mm, gotta disagree pretty strongly there. i mean, even if (hypothetically speaking) there is no God, the life i've lived as a Christian has been pretty productive, fulfilling, and far from wasted. your initial point is rather off too, i'm not "doing" christianity to be happy later. sure, that's a definite good thing, but i've learned the hard way that living my life with God is a far more successful way of doing it than without. its those people who are trying to earn something that are missing the point completely.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

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Without reading the thread, I'm just going to pop in here and ask, isn't heaven, by definition, impossible to not enjoy?

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And isn't that frightening enough?

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Will art exist? What about the kind of art I enjoy? How about music? How about the kind of music I enjoy? How about debate? If everyone has the same views and is coming from the same viewpoint and moral stance, then I won't be able to argue, which is one of my favorite hobbies.

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Excellent points all. From a christian viewpoint (which I'm not and don't have but I digress) should then the question be; Should you be doing those things now? Or, if you prefer, In doing those things now... is heaven going to be a non-issue

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And isn't that frightening enough?

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Not really. I don't see how one can really be scared of something that they are only capable of enjoying.

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Will art exist? What about the kind of art I enjoy? How about music? How about the kind of music I enjoy?...

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In such a perfect place, I strongly doubt your desires from earth will persist. It's likely you'd get there and realize how little art actually mattered and how little pleasure it actually brought you. Of course, you couldn't feel that way now, because you're not there. But again, by definition, I don't think you could get to Heaven and think "this is boring, I want to go back." Either Heaven will match your interests, or, more likely, your interests will change to match what Heaven holds.

Majority of below is response to Ramasax, skip to the last paragraph for a Heaven blurb.

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Bad news, you may never get that proof, it's about faith, no irrefutable evidence. If God showed up one day and said, "Behold," faith would turn to fact and your free-will to make the choice on your own would be gone. You'd simply believe.

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You don't get the point of what I said previously. It may be an issue of faith to you, but that isn't so far off from my ideas, that religion and god type stuff is a puzzle. You have faith that the answer is X. I do not have that faith, for the moment. I have faith that I don't know the answer, but in an effort to find the answer, I'm willing to take a guess and learn from the mistake, if there is one.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling a lot of people have been pushed away from God because there are plenty of unsavory characters who say and do things in the name of religion. They have been turned away by men, and God takes the blame.

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I can't say anything about other people, but that is not the case for me. I'd say the primary reason I'm not a Xian is that I don't tend to think that 2+2 equals god. To me, science, mathematics, logic, reasoning, and other similar things seem to hold far more truth in them. Sure, that's a limited way of looking at things, and I certainly can't prove that these things are irrefutably and always correct. They aren't. But to me, the points add up in the sciences favor. So I'll take my shot there for now.

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What you have to realize is that the majority of Christians in this world you don't even notice. They live their lives and mind their own business like everyone else.

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You think I don't? I don't knock on anyones door to tell them about the wonders of atheism. Not to say I've had Xians knock on my door, they haven't, really. But to say that non-Xian people don't mind their own business is silly. I will, however, heartily engage in discussion and debate with the intent to learn about such topics.

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In the end, we all have to make the choice for ourselves. I have studied both sides of the coin.

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It's not the end yet, eh? You fault me for studying one side of the coin for awhile?

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And life from non-life, well not without some kind of intervention. I do not see how any logic loving scientist would go for that either.

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Maybe the logic loving scientists like puzzles too, and they're trying to find out new things that might guide them to the answer. We surely don't know everything there is to know in science or math. Who knows if there is some kind of mathematical and scientific provision for such things? We have yet to prove or disprove any of that. I say "Lets work on some of these things".

I imagine no matter what happens, we'll find our way. My life isn't going to be dramatically lacking of motivation and production simply because I don't precisely hold the same moral values as Xians.

Back to the whole Heaven thing... A question.. If say, I'm a pretty devout Xian, but after a long time of this portion of eternity passes by, and maybe I get bored of doing the surely finite quantity of things to do... What happens if I think I would enjoy doing something sinful? I suppose it depends on your definition of sinful, but would I be kicked out of Heaven if I decided I would enjoy a round of GTA Vice City? (I never actually played the game, but I know it's very violent and such.)

-Xel
[Edit for getting rid of an accidentily added "not"]

[This message has been edited by Xel (edited 11-18-2003).]

Xel, regarding your last post: You're reffering to playing it on earth, or on heaven? On earth, no, of course not, but in Heaven, who knows. I've always thought about that too: If we sin, then technically I'd be out of there, right? So will we have free will?

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 11-18-2003).]

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I can't say anything about other people, but that is not the case for me. I'd say the primary reason I'm not a Xian is that I don't tend to think that 2+2 equals god. To me, science, mathematics, logic, reasoning, and other similar things seem to hold far more truth in them. Sure, that's a limited way of looking at things, and I certainly can't prove that these things are irrefutably and always correct. They aren't. But to me, the points add up in the sciences favor. So I'll take my shot there for now.

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see, i always wonder on this one. what exactly is there in science that has "more truth" that conflicts with the idea of there being a God? i've done a fair amount on the general subject and i don't find where one contradicts the other.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

... what I shall say might have already appeared somewhere above, but I must confess I didnt have neither strength (sleepy and tired) nor the desire (whats the point, we'll never know for sure anyway untill we die) to read what everyone had to say (so selfish of me).

nevertheless...

Although I prefer not to believe in Heaven/Hell, a lot of people do, and that gets me thinking...
And so I see the eternal life (let it exist) in heaven not as "eternal life" but eternal bliss, think of an orgasm (only much better) that lasts forever. That would be cool eh? Then hell, being the opposite of it would be the same only of a very unpleasant nature.

Naturally these are perfect motivators to make the masses behave as the ruling class wants them to.


Now something from personal experience,
There IS bliss... maybe even eternal... that is if there is no afterlife, if u just cease to exist. Having to think constantly (and be self-conscous) is the heaviest burden - and once (if ever) u rid of it, u'll know what I mean. Nothingness is that Heaven they keep promising us... but then at the same time it may be hell to some, who love life so much, maybe that IS the subdevision - heaven/hell is how we see the same thing - inexistence. To some it may be the ultimate escape, to others - eternal loss.

We may not know for sure, but there is hope - someday we shall all die, and find out what that bliss is. or not.

Acknowledge first that humans are inherently irrational and that acting irrationally is not a moral wrong. However, irrationality may often lead to poor decisions that negatively affect the entities around the decision maker. Consider Heaven's Gate, the Raelians, and the current Bush administration as demonstrators.

wrayal:
The concept of Heaven is not Christian. While Christianity does prescribe its variation of the concept of Heaven, many cultures with or without religion include their own variation of the concept. I do not doubt that every individual has his or her own idea of Heaven. For Christians, Heaven is an actual place. For some, Heaven is the Elysian Fields. For others, Heaven is simply being with a dozen nekid supermodels without the fear of being subsumed by bacteria. It varies.

Now it should be noted that believing in something that cannot be proven to exist or not to exist is irrational, but admission of fear is not an admission of belief. You fear the unknown which is also irrational. Do not confuse fear with awareness. Do not confuse fear with preference either which is what you appear to be doing.

Immortality is a frightening possibility yet it is also a great thing to achieve. If you don't like your life now, and you think irrationally the majority of your time, you're obviously not going to rationally appreciate immortality or the possibility of it. An associate of mine is the director of the Immortality Institute which is essentially a forum for empirical research, scientific discovery, and rational discourse on the topic of immortality. Antiaging and immortality research is a legitimate field.
http://www.imminst.org/

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isn't heaven, by definition, impossible to not enjoy?

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I know what you mean, but if that is true, then my idea of heaven goes against what the Christian heaven is dictated to be. IMHO there is an inherent contradiction here: heaven is eternal happiness. For me to be happiest, I would have to know that it wasn't going to be eternal.

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I've learned the hard way that living my life with God is a far more successful way of doing it than without

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I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you here. While this may be the case for you, I have many friends who, similarly to me, have converted away from Christianity, and for not a single one of them has life been worse since that conversion. I doubt this is what you believe, but there is some sort of view that people become "worse" the moment they stop being Christian. Not true in the slightest.

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The concept of Heaven is not Christian

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Please, just stop picking holes. Of course I know this, but, as you can probably guess, I was referring specifically to the Christian depiction of heaven. Don't be so facetious.

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You fear the unknown which is also irrational

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I am NOT talking about the unknown. Two things are known about the Christian heaven: it is ETERNAL and it is WONDERFUL. So if you are stating that the former fact is unknown, then you are stating that we should not base any judgement upon any fact stated in the Bible.

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What exactly is there in science that has "more truth" that conflicts with the idea of there being a God?

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For example, many Christians (BUT BY NO MEANS ALL!) are of the opinion that the earth is only a few thousand years old. I would say that science disagrees fairly strongly on this point, and that science has far more conclusive proof.

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I'm not "doing" christianity to be happy later.

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Yes, I do concede here, many Christians believe in God for other reasons (though it does seem strange that many preachers etc. seem to us ethis as the soul reason that you should convert to Christianity).


Amidst all this, I have yet to notice - is there even a single person who agrees with me?

Wrayal

Go to kimber-ja.demon.co.uk and click on the link to the raytracer!

If there is an afterlife....whichever you believe in. Its not going to be like on earth...our bodies die, the end, zip...we are gone, rot/burn and become part of the earth as a substances...now if there is an afterlife....its nothing like we think it is, its nothing what it says in bible/quaran...gold, diamonds and babes giving you food....no...it might be something but since(lets say souls exist)soul lives on,but it is missing its other part! a body. A soul without a body would be nothing...its incomplete, it cannot exist in physical form or feel any pain or whatever, plus our minds are dead and sould does not think for sure...I guess there is nothing to fear...no pain, no thinking, no nothing.

Another thing why would our souls be judge for an actions of body?
Well I personally dont believe in souls or heaven or afterlife or anything like that, I think its useless to accept and wonder, that if you do (something such as accept christ or fallow buddha or muhamad whatever) you will be rewarded and will go to heaven...it makes life more like video game. Makes alot of people blind and preventing them from doing other things, since they believe that they will go to "heaven" and start to think that life is just a preparation for afterlife. Religion in fact does bring many people values, keeps them from danger and sometimes makes them less violent among themself, but when it comes to argument between 2 different religions more violence than ever can occur.

just my $00.02

I have long thought that a creative force runs through the world that drives the flow of nature and creation. I don't think that the world would exist without it. However, I am not Christian... or anything else for that matter. I do not refer to this force as "God".

I've recently been thinking a lot about what happens at death. Not because I'm thinking about dying, but because I have a desire to prepare myself mentally, as it were, for death. Even though it's years in the future (I can only hope!).

Wrayal, I'm not sure the precise point of your concern is coming across the way you intend it to in your posts. You seem to be concerned that if you go to heaven, you'll just be floating around bored... no sin there, no entertainment. An eternity of that is frightening, I'll grant you.

As someone said above, no one can avoid the End, when it comes. But as humans, we're all concerned about it. It's something that is currently unknowable, and as such, uncontrollable. People don't like not having control over something.

Religion is a means to an end. It is a human invention designed to provide instruction in societal morals and comfort for the afterlife to come (or to scare someone straight, depending on your angle). It doesn't matter what you believe in - so long as it provides you with structure, morals and comfort. Take what you need and leave the rest.

It sounds like you aren't sure what you should believe in and are therefore frightened by the possibilities that may exist. You probably won't find too many people around here who haven't settled into a belief system of some sort. Too many religious debates have gone on around here for that... We've all had to choose sides!

It's hard to see, other than that, what you might be looking for in an answer to your concern. From the above posts, it appears that no one else thinks the prospect of living in eternal bliss is frightening. It could be nothing other than a neurochemical reaction similar to the one caused by endorphins, for ever. If that's the case, what are you worried about? You'll feel so good, nothing else will matter!

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I've learned the hard way that living my life with God is a far more successful way of doing it than without
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I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you here. While this may be the case for you, I have many friends who, similarly to me, have converted away from Christianity, and for not a single one of them has life been worse since that conversion. I doubt this is what you believe, but there is some sort of view that people become "worse" the moment they stop being Christian. Not true in the slightest.

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hence my use of "i" everyone has their own personal experiences, for me it was growing up very "reigious", doing my own thing in college, then deciding that i needed God in my life. i don't think anyone who's "left" christianity is necessarily better or worse, but i do believe they're missing out on something. that does raise a question tho, who or what converted you away from chrisitianity and why? i've generally heard the term convert used in the opposite sense

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What exactly is there in science that has "more truth" that conflicts with the idea of there being a God?
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For example, many Christians (BUT BY NO MEANS ALL!) are of the opinion that the earth is only a few thousand years old. I would say that science disagrees fairly strongly on this point, and that science has far more conclusive proof.

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i won't disagree that there are some christians that hold that belief, but that's hardly conclusive proof against christianity since there are lots that don't believe that. i'm trying to understand why some feel that science and christianity are a one or the other sort of choice, so far that doesn't do it

chris


KAIROSinteractive

"Xel, regarding your last post: You're reffering to playing it on earth, or on heaven? On earth, no, of course not, but in Heaven, who knows. I've always thought about that too: If we sin, then technically I'd be out of there, right? So will we have free will?"

I meant Heaven. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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I am NOT talking about the unknown. Two things are known about the Christian heaven: it is ETERNAL and it is WONDERFUL. So if you are stating that the former fact is unknown, then you are stating that we should not base any judgement upon any fact stated in the Bible.

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Oh please, good sir, tell us how you've acquired such knowledge of such things said to be greater than that of Man's ability to think.

Fig:

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i won't disagree that there are some christians that hold that belief, but that's hardly conclusive proof against christianity since there are lots that don't believe that. i'm trying to understand why some feel that science and christianity are a one or the other sort of choice, so far that doesn't do it

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I would imagine it has something to do with things similar to the fact that a very long time ago, the church said very bad things about Galileo Galilei, and other very smart people, and censored them, prohibiting them from publishing their findings, and forcing them to admit that they don't actually believe what they found, because it disproved some doctrine of the church or somesuch.

And wow, it actually turned out that Galileo was right. What a thought.

Things in science can seem to contradict things from what the church teaches and vice versa. (I'm sure that many people could come up with possible explanations to link various parts of Xianity and Science, but I don't think *all* parts..Yet..)

-Xel
[edit; mixed up Galileo's name.]


[This message has been edited by Xel (edited 11-19-2003).]

Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.

In science or religion. Many things once thought mystical have been proven scientifically, and still many things have not yet been proven. Perhaps not because they do not exist, but simply because we have not yet the technology to satisfactorily prove them.

i can sort've understand that reasoning xel, but at the same time its not "a" reason. disliking the church's past views on things (which we could really do for anything, couldn't we? quite a number of countries, governments, and other organizations have had less than glorious pasts) is quite different than finding a conflict between what science says and what christianity says. no one's come up with an actual fact yet, just opinions.

sounds like a bit of a cop-out imo. (not directed at you, just the attitude as a whole)

chris


KAIROSinteractive

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Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.

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It is also true that absence of evidence is not evidence of existence. Thus, (a)gnosticism (aka. (a)gnostic atheism, "weak" atheism) is the most rational position to take regarding matters of religion and faith.

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I am NOT talking about the unknown. Two things are known about the Christian heaven: it is ETERNAL and it is WONDERFUL. So if you are stating that the former fact is unknown, then you are stating that we should not base any judgement upon any fact stated in the Bible.
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Oh please, good sir, tell us how you've acquired such knowledge of such things said to be greater than that of Man's ability to think.

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Im not sure if your stupid or deliberately belligerent. We are told by the bible that Heaven is ETERNAL and WONDERFUL. My "knowledge of such things said to be greater than that of Man's ability to think" comes from the Bible.

Im losing hope of explaining this. I am not scared of being bored. I am simply scared of it just going on for ever. I have no morbid desire to die, I just want an end, a conclusion. Not an endlessness, even if the conclusion is nothingness

Go to kimber-ja.demon.co.uk and click on the link to the raytracer!

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It is also true that absence of evidence is not evidence of existence. Thus, (a)gnosticism (aka. (a)gnostic atheism, "weak" atheism) is the most rational position to take regarding matters of religion and faith.

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just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean i don't. i find the most rational position to be belief.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

metahuman - touchee

wrayal - the end of something is always the beginning of something else. Even if *you* are not conscious of what that something else will be.

Since you can't really know the truth of it until it happens, what's the sense in being disturbed by it? If it comforts you to believe that the end of your life your consciousness will simply be snuffed out, there's no harm in believing that.

Your beliefs are what you make of them - not what other people tell you they should be. Why fear something you're not even sure about? It just doesn't make sense.

If you are not a Christian, and you do not believe in heaven, decide for yourself what you think it will be. You do not have to believe that the end is simply an eternity for your consciousness to swim around in some void, if the idea of that frightens you... Unless somewhere deep in your subconscious you have a deep masochistic streak and enjoy being frightened of the unknown...

I don't mean to be offensive, Fig, but if you think that belief ("faith") is rational then your reasoning is flawed. It is most likely that you have not taken a step back from your emotional sensitivity regarding faith and viewed it with an objective perspective. If you had, you would have concluded that all belief is essentially irrational, as belief can only occur where acceptance is not compelled, for if acceptance is compelled, then belief is not required to accept that thing. Belief is thus the acceptance of some thing as being provisionally true where: contradictory evidence exists which throws doubt upon or compels the rejection of the thing being accepted as truth; or where insufficient evidence exists to compel or suggest acceptance of the thing as truth.

I am now uninterested in conversing with wrayal since he is incapable of a mature and intelligent discussion.

I've kicked stones smarter than him. ;p

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just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean i don't. i find the most rational position to be belief.

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It is fact that there is no empirical evidence to support arguments for theism or for "strong" atheism. To say otherwise requires a case to be made and since you nor millions of others have not made a strong case for the existence or nonexistence of any deities, your initial statement in this context is false. However, it is true that I may not know what you know. That's what makes conversation exciting.

I am now uninterested in conversing with wrayal since he is incapable of a mature and intelligent discussion.

I've kicked stones smarter than him. ;p

Come on metahuman. We all have much to learn from each other. I for one am enlighten by your words. Please come down a bit & be compassionate to we who don't have your gift of high intellect.

Yes... we all know by our human limited intellect its irrational to believe as we do and your right from where your sitting. But by our friendship with Christ we tap into the divine human intellect where its light of reason is given to us in that all things are in God and God in all things. We cannot humanly explain why with proof. We can only tell you how the relationship makes us feel. If we are receptive to the love of Christ, Christ feeds us himself to our souls to know him in the fullest sense in our time travel so we can become him. Man & divine.

We can agree that since the beginning of the world man has always looked up to the skies for a connection to the heavens. What do you think that is in mans nature that beckons him to look upward? To seek the reason of his own existance in looking for answer? If we don't look up to the skies, where are our answers to come from?



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-20-2003).]

I love you too metahuman.
Frankly, this was not meant to be some highly theological debate; I don't even believe there is a heaven, or anything after I die. I was simply stating that, were I still Christian, I would find the prospect of heaven terrifying.

And also, me the idiot?

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incapable of a mature and intelligent discussion.

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If you are referring to "Im losing hope of explaining this." That was not a dig at you guys in the slightest. That was saying I was incapable of expressing myself properly.

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I've kicked stones smarter than him.

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I see you are capable of a highly mature discussion as well.

Wrayal

Go to kimber-ja.demon.co.uk and click on the link to the raytracer!

Hi

Mind if I mosey in on this conversation? I'm new here.

I agree with one of the previous posters, who said that eternal happiness would be miserable. If we were born into the world permanently happy, we would not know anything else, and thus we would have nothing to compare it with. It is through sadness, in my opinion, that happiness derives its meaning. If you could always remember your life's suffering though, as a sort of framework in which to appreciate your happiness, I can't imagine it would be too miserable.

My greatest problem with the concept of heaven is the selection procedure! I find it abhorrent that a just and loving God could throw most of humanity into hell. Punishments on Earth, unless they're carried out by sadists, are remedial measures. What is the remedial value of Hell?

I've heard the same arguments over and over again in my conversations with people who believe in this kind of salvation model. They say that impure things cannot be in God's presence, but what is to stop an omnipotent God from saying 'Okay, you've suffered enough for what you've done, come and share heaven with me'? It is certainly within 'His' power. And how ironic that we can be rightfully disgusted and broken by seeing the wrong we can do to each other, but jump to defend a being who would do this to His own creations forever and ever? Even worse is how some people think that eternal suffering for a non-believer is justified and that they got what they deserved.

Can heaven be a happy place, knowing that our own friends and family would not be there to share it with us? That, to me, is the most fearful thing about Heaven, although to my comfort, I believe in a God, but not the bloodthirsty sort.

Unicornis

***Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it.***

This is a big thread. I haven't read any replies, only the first post, so my reply is related to it.

I don't believe in eternal life, heaven, hell, and I have serious doubts about the existence of a God.
What I believe is that we came from dust and to dust we'll go back.
Unfortunately, death means end of everything.

The best entity I can believe that has some resemblance to a God would be that maybe we are part of a big experiment. We were created by some very different and smart creatures that are watching us, well, not us, but the Universe, being us part of it. For some reason, they need to know how this experiment is going and time/space/matter has a completely different meaning to them, that we, with all our great smartness, have not yet come even close to know how it is, how it functions. We will probably never know for our race will end before we can get enough knowledge about it. Don't ask me how _they_ were created.

I have some doubts about all this thinking when I look to my daughters. I guess that, as I get older, I may go changing all this thinking, as I have been changing through years, but the essence of it remains the same: there is no life after this life. There is no way to have. I can't figure out a theory that can explain in a believable way that there is life beyond. But I can easily make my theory that the end is really indeed and definitely the end.

So, I am not terrified by the prospect of going to heaven. I'm terrified by how many bad things can happen to us while we are here on Earth, this for sure.

Unicornis, welcome to the Asylum

I have a question about this non-bloodthirsty god of yours. Why does it allow people to do evil things to one another? Can a loving god sit by and allow that to happen? If it is all powerful, couldn't it prevent each and every act of evil? Why would it allow as you mention the acts of sadists to occur in the first place?


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

Some can only theorize what heaven would be like, since no one as ever been there & back to tell about it. But I think most have to the concept of heaven all wrong. Stroies, poems, articles and media have it all wrong. We evision ourselves in white robes with angels and harps playing perpetually high up in the clouds. THis is definitely not the heaven the bible describes.

In the Christian view, per scritpure, you can believe that heaven will be on earth, but it will be a transformed earth. After our death according to Gods time we will rise like Jesus did. We will feel, we will eat, and we will be able to bilocate like Jesus did. We will be able to bilocate to anywhere in the world and beyond if we want. Why should God rid of the physical world which God took billions of years to make for us. The kingdom is already here for us, we just have to reach for it. Heaven on earth will be a tangible place, but with no suffering, no illness, no heartache. In this earthly heaven there will be more beautiful colors, more beautiful smells, beautiful scenic visions that we can ever imagine. Look how God leaves us a glimpse of heaven when we go see a beautiful creation like the grand canyon. Don't we feel the wonder of God there in his magnificance. Per scripture there will be heavenly mansions provided by God for us that go beyond our wildest dreams and they will belong to us. We will live in them and help God to build them better. In fact here in the earth now we are always trying to build a better world for ourselves. Its because the world in time will be a better place for us to live. It will be the place of our heaven. And we believe all the people who we love who have died will be there too, living but in a different way. And all the animals we have loved will be there too. Scriputre says they will. Why not. In the times of Noah, who did God make sure to save. I think we will able to see prehistoric animals and dinosaurs and all animals will live in co-existance since there will not be a reason for a food chain. And our bodies will also reunite with our souls too per scripture, just like Jesus soul reunited with his body when he rose from the dead. Since Jesus had to pave the way for us in his transformation from death to eternal life, we transform in the same way. In the Acts scripture it says Jesus ate, and appeared and disappeared and went thur walls. We will also have supernatural powers. I believe we will have the same identities and we will be able to be any age we want, maybe the age we were most happiest. Because all is possible with God. You see if we envision a heaven like this, all of us living and working together in eternal happiness, it seems like its a place worth going to.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 04-01-2004).]

I'd rather die than be immortal.

Deviations

I really wouldn't mind at all being immortal, as long as the ones I love and care also were.

This is a topic I've been given a lot of thought to lately. Well, not such much being afraid that I will go to Heaven but rather that it i.)doesn't exist or ii.)I won't be admitted.

At 21, I've reached an age where all of my grandparents have passed away. Also, at this age, my parents as well as my friends parents have reached the age where diseases such as cancer generally comes out. Thankfully my parents are very healthy, although some of my friends haven't been so lucky.

I've never really considered an afterlife before but the last few years I've been realizing how short life really is. If the average male US citizen lifespan is less then 80 years, I've already wasted a quarter of my life. I'm left with three scenarios:

• Heaven exists and I'm admitted.
• Heaven exists and I'm turned away.
• Heaven doesn't exist and I simply turn to dust.

The third option really frightens me, although I question whether it should. I figure if theres no Heaven (or after-life) I won't know it because, well, my body will be dead. Eerily, I find very slight comfort in that.

I'm rambling though.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

My most terrifying thought is not that I will die.
I will die and I will go back to dust, and that's not a problem, that's how it's supposed to be. I do wish that this comes very late in my life.
My most terrifying thought is not to be the first one to go.
When you have kids, that's really terrifying.

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The young perish, the old linger
That I should live to see the last days of my house
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No parent should have to bury their child.

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Hail Theoden!

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I really wouldn't mind at all being immortal, as long as the ones I love and care also were.

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I really wouldn't mind at all being immortal, as long as I got to run around chopping off other immortal's heads with cool swords.

They say that the net generation will be the first to be truly immortal and I'm planning on hanging on long enough (I have good longevity genes and am aiming for at least 100 - famous last words: somehwere out there a bus has my name on it. If my name was "City Centre" then I'd be very worried ). That said 'they' always seem to be way off with their futurology so I guess I many be out of luck (unless people do commute to work with rocket packs theya re just hiding it from me).

Jestah: What about other possibilities:

4. You get admitted to Heaven and it isn't any good (all those clouds, harps and basking in the love of God must surely get dull?).
5. There is a Heavan but you are booked in for a long stay with Old Nick.
6. What if there is some kind of afterlife (as opposed to Heaven) that our puny human minds can't comprehend - you are looking at things from a distinctly Judaeo-Christian (and by extension Moslem) perspective which would lead me to:
7. It turns out we are all in the great wheel of reincarnation.
8. You go to 'Heaven' but it turns out the Christians were wrong and another religion was right and it is a radically different one to the one you were expecting.

And probably some other thigs I didn't think of.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Why people reject immortality so easily, by excuses of "as long as my loved ones were immortals as well, i would"? Say, your grandfather died. You probably felt so bad during some time. Maybe 10 years later, you may miss him, but you wouldnt feel really bad after all that time. When your "beloved" ones died centuries ago, the same situation than your grampa loss may happen again. You'd just stop caring. You may say that's bad, but that's because you are probably still adhered to your current ideologies, and not what your ideologies will be after aeos existing.

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Sexy Demoness cel