Topic awaiting preservation: Kinda disturbing...(About the Iraq War)

Soldier talks about killing Iraqis

IT's not the first part that disturbs me, it's the guy talking at the end. I realize that the Iraqis' are their enemy, and that it's more of an objective to them: kill these guys. And when they complete that they feel releived or happy, so I don't require chastization on that, but that whole "lets do it again" thing...Don't they realize when they're saying that that they are killing people.
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[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 12-11-2003).]

cfb: what exactly did you think war was? A paintball game where everyone goes home with a few bruises and memories of a good time? Yes, what the soldier said was disturbing, but war is a disturbed business. It is certainly unpleasant for us civilians to think that people might enjoy killing other people and actually want to do it again. But you don't want your soldiers to be having moral qualms about killing the enemy, and if after they kill an enemy they want to kill another then they have been trained well. It would be rather inefficient to go through all the trouble of training a soldier only to have him become a less effective fighting machine after making his first kill.

Or would you be less disturbed by a soldier who showed no emotion at all when killing, and went about his job like a machine?

Let me ask you another question: Do you believe that the Iraqis on the other side of the battle lines don't think the same way?

I won't argue with you that, from a civilian point of view, it is disturbing. From a military point of view, though, it's reality. It may not be PC, but it's reality.

All of this is from a purely philosophical standpoint, of course, since I've never killed anyone or been in combat. In fact, the only time a gun was ever fired in my direction I hit the ground and stayed there until I was dragged to my feet.

[Edit: Hey, what happened to cfb?]
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Suho: www.liminality.org

Suho: I use whichever one I feel like typing in.

Anyways:

Obviously he's been trained well. I can't wrap my brain around the idea that I would want to kill somebody, though. I mean, I love guns, and I use them all the time. I've hunted several times, but one time at the shooting range I decided it would be fun to shoot the squirrel that was sitting on top of my target. Well, I did, and I felt horrible for like a month. Even after playing GTA . I realize that in a war setting, well, it's kill of be killed, and in that situation survival usually overwhelms morals.

I think that if I'd shot somebody in a war, I'd feel bad, but then I'd shoot somebody else, and I'd feel bad but less bad than the first time. And so on and so on untill I felt like I was shooting objects.

That (objectifying the killing) doesn't bother me as much as wanting to kill. I'd be much less disturbed if the soldier had said: "Well, it's just a person."

And no, i don't think that Iraqi's are feeling the same thing. On the American side, were invading Iraq, on the Iraqi side, they are defending their home from invaders.

If I were to have kids, and someone stepped into my house with the intent to kill them (and/or me), the survival instinct would probably kick in and if I had a gun (on a nightstand), I'd probably shoot them If i had to. To an Iraqi I'd guess it is like that. They have to defend themselves, or they're going to get shot.

For an American, they are invading, and they're killing Iraqis because they were told to, not out of a survival instinct or out of the nescessity to protect their home.

If China invaded the US, and our military was organized to fight them off, and there was an interview with an American soldier, and he said: "Woohoo, I got another one." I wouldn't be as disturbed. IT's in self-defense. If the Russian said "Ahh yah! I got another one." It'd be much more disturbing.

Anyways, obviously war isn't paintball. I hope that this clarifies a little bit.


"I make and I sell soap."

[This message has been edited by cfb (edited 12-11-2003).]

OK, you've got a point about defending their homes. But that doesn't change the fact that they most likely want to kill as many Americans as possible, and feel good when they do it. The mentality is the same.

I used to shoot a lot as well when I was younger. Pistols, rifles, shotguns, hand-held cannons, even blackpowder. Unlike my younger brother, though, I never went hunting. I could shoot up all the targets in the world, but the thought of hurting a living thing makes me ill. I'll even go out of my way to capture an insect so I can bring it outside rather than killing it. Yeah, I'm a pussy.

quote:

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I think that if I'd shot somebody in a war, I'd feel bad, but then I'd shoot somebody else, and I'd feel bad but less bad than the first time. And so on and so on untill I felt like I was shooting objects.

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That's desensitization, and it happens in war. I don't see why its such a difficult leap to make from being desensitized to actually enjoying killing people. Once the killing no longer affects you, I imagine your training would kick in and you would feel a sense of satisfaction (not to mention the adrenaline rush that must accompany it). So it doesn't really come as a surprise to hear a soldier say "Let's kill some more!"

Again, I understand what you're saying about the attacking/defending aspect, but I don't really think that plays into the mentality of the common soldier. Indeed, it may give them more will to fight, but I don't think it changes the basic mentality.

Now let me toss something out here for you to think about, because I'm thinking about it right now: does what the soldier say freak you out because it offends your sensibilities and goes against your moral compass, or does it freak you out because deep down inside you know that, given the proper circumstances, you might be capable of the same thing?


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Suho: www.liminality.org

cfb: There is a thread running on this:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000998.html

it might be disturbing but its not suprising.

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Emps

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