Topic awaiting preservation: This is how you protest freedom of speech?

ACK!!! I meant to title this "This is how you PROTECT freedom of speech?" I'm such an idiot!!!

AL FRANKEN KNOCKS DOWN DEAN HECKLER

A while ago someone asked my why I mistrusted some of the left wing. Al Franken's behavior in this article exemplifies the fears I have of the left. They speak of freedom and rights but when someone exercises that right in a way unacceptable to them, they resort to shutting them up. In this case, physically assaulting a person who was heckling, which is a perfectly normal and acceptable way of voicing oppostion in public rallies. It happens all the time.

Can the leftists here, many of whom you know I consider dear friends, explain to me whether my fears are at all justified by your side of the political spectrum? Are many on your side fascists in disguise?

(note: I know my side has its problems too and I am open to discussing those at any time)

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-27-2004).]

Yep, all leftists are actually fascists in disguise and will beat up everybody who disagrees with them.

What kind of question is that?

I don´t know who that Al Franken is, but what he did was obviously not the gentlemanly thing to do, and justifying it as "protectiong freedom of speech" seems borderline ridiculous to me. I´d like you to note however, that out of a probably rather large crowd, he was the only one to act like this.
While I don´t condone such behaviour, I´d say if you are trying to shout down a politician in front of hundreds or thousands of his supporters you are always at a risk that some of them will react unfriendly.

Would you agree that in the future hecklers should be restricted to free spech zones some miles away from the site of the rally, to protect them from the leftwing fascists?

I am and always have been a big fan of Al Franken.

I find his behavior in this situation absurd. However, he is just a person....he reacts with anger just like any other at times.

At least he isn't making policy that limits freedom of speech, or making law enforcement hide the hecklers

Al Franken is very close to the Democrat party leadership in this country and is quite well connected. He speaks at campaign rallies for Howard Dean and I think a couple other candidates. If I thought he was just a funny guy from television doing this sort of thing that would be that and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But he is not just any other democrat. When you say he isn't making policy decisions you're right, but if the Dems win will he just cut all ties to the leadership of the party?

MW, I didn't realize you weren't familiar with this guy. He's quite well known in the US. He's recently written a few books that get very good circulation basically trashing right wingers and Bush especially.

If this was an isolated incident, I wouldn't be as concerned but it wasn't long ago he literally trying to pick a fight at a dinner somewhere with some right wingers. I'll have to find that story if I can for the details. It happened sometime last year.

. . : slicePuzzle

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[This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 01-28-2004).]

His "ties" to politicians are pretty much irrelevent in this, as far as I can see.

He got a little physical in response to a guy being a jerk. I don't agree with his actions, or his explanation, but when it comes down to it, I'm not particularly concerned. In fact I find it somewhat humorous. He's only hurting himself afterall...

I have a hard time reconciling the fact that this upsets you so much, and yet you brush off Bush having protesters restricted to areas he won't be in

I'd be interested to see this article in other publications or preferably on video. Franken has a long history with the NY papers, they don't like him much and take any opportunity to play him down if possible. I don't know much about the actual event. I have trouble seeing ol' Stuart Smalley tackling someone at a political convention, and it's hard to say what actually occured. There is a fine line between free speech and harrasment... without knowing what actually happened, it's hard to say if this guy was attacking someone or if he was voicing an opinion. Either way, it's hard to find attacking someone justified in any circumstance. In direct answer to the question, if the article is an accurate portrayal of the events, that seems uncalled for and uncivilized.


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

This is the only other publication I can find that mentions the event, and they quote their source as the 'New York Post', so, the dubiousness rises.


[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 01-28-2004).]

Bah..., I'd rather see prominent citizens brawling, than The Secret Service and Local Police cordoning off "Free Speech Areas" that are effectively silencing a large number of protesters. At least this is just one fools actions, not a systematic silencing of dissent.

Apples / Oranges



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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Bugimus I have to agree with you. Al Franken is a facist for getting into a fight and he certainly represents all those who lean even slightly to the left.



What a right-wing wacko.

Jestah

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I have a hard time reconciling the fact that this upsets you so much, and yet you brush off Bush having protesters restricted to areas he won't be in ???

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DL, it doesn't upset me so much at all really. His behavior speaks for itself. I wanted to bring it up here specifically to explore the larger concern I expressed above.

I think UnknownComic states it best when he points out that protest zones and Al's behavior are comparing apples and oranges.

The reason I am not too upset about the protest zones (not fond of them either) is because freedom of speech and the right to assemble have always been regulated by the civil authorities. This is absolutely nothing new. It is part of how an orderly civilized society conducts itself. If we think the authorities shouldn't have this power, then let's start petitioning our representatives to pass some laws prohibiting it.

Jestah, do you think the left is so immune from corruption that introspection is pointless? I am constantly questioning myself and my "right wing wacko"ness. Have you ever in your life tried introspection?

MW, I recall you were taken back that I questioned the motives of the environmental movement. That really bothered me because I wondered why that was off limits. But how many times do people assume the motives of the right are sinister? It's almost automatic.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-29-2004).]

Bugs:

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Can the leftists here, many of whom you know I consider dear friends, explain to me whether my fears are at all justified by your side of the political spectrum? Are many on your side fascists in disguise?

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I'm afraid I'm not really sure what your point is. Some people on the left are assholes, some people on the right are assholes, in fact an awful lot of the population of this planet are assholes and I'm sure being an asshole crosses all politcal and cultural divides.

Are you trying to use the behaviour of one guy to prove your opinion of people on the left? If so here are some more: Stalin and Mao. I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could come up with an impressive list but I'm not sure what it would prove other than there are a lot of assholes out there

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Emps, I'm sorry for not being able to make my point clearer. I think I can put it directly now that I've rethought why I started this:

To everyone here who thinks that we have only to fear the political right wing and that the political left wing is purely motivated and therefore cannot implement harmful policies, please don't assume the left is immune to abuses. Humanity has suffered tremendously under left wing wackos in the last century. The extreme right *and* the extreme left must be watched and kept in check.

To everyone who is laughing that I should feel the need to state something as obvious as I just did, I beg your pardons. But I've met people who do not see this as a truism and I hear some people in this place expressing similar views.

. . : slicePuzzle

But Bugs surely you are attacking a strawman - I don't anyone in their right (or left) mind argue that all people on the left are angels - some ofthe biggest butchers in history were from the left. Criticism of the right doesn't imply unthinking acceptance of the left - when politics reaches the extremes at either end of the spectrum it is time to worry - its just that the right seems to be doing all the hardwork screwing the world up at the moment.

All that said we shouldn't take our eyes of the centrist either as they are opportunists whoi could easily lead us into trouble too (and thats not just directed at Tony Blair ).

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Perhaps we've met a different mix of people in our travels I have met some that think that way. But I hope they are few and far between but it doesn't take meeting very many when you begin to wonder just how many there really are.

Maybe you can help me with another question similar to this. Do you think the right (who you say are currently causing most of the problems) are evil or mistaken?

. . : slicePuzzle

Bugimus - It is clear that neither the left nor the right are pure, as political entities. It is clear that we need to watch all people involved in politics, and be mindful of the things that will erode our freedoms and our society in general.

I am at a *complete* loss as to how this relates to the articel you posted.

Yes, Al used "free speech" as his reason for knocking the guy down. Yes that's plain silly.

But how is it possible that you are relating this to a tyrannical leftist political aganda?

It speaks to a mindset. A mindset that says it's ok to silence those saying things we don't want to hear. I know you've minimized his connections with the Democrat leadership but I don't take it as lightly because if they don't condemn his exploits then I wonder if their mindsets are similar to his.

Take the other side. How many times have I been linked to suspicion because of people like Falwell and Robertson? People assume I think fundamentally like they do about politics because they are right wingers and so am I. But I condemn their views when I disagree with them so people know but Howard Dean has Al Franken speaking at his rallies where he curses and uses extremely caustic rhetoric against the Bush administration while Dean smiles. Am I to assume Dean agrees? Why would he not distance himself from that sort of behavior? Al Franken is not just a guy in the crowd.

[edit] He doesn't just use bad language but he says right wingers are evil... not mistaken. Bill C*****n said this about Dole in 96. He said he must be defeated not because he was wrong, but because he was evil. Why the demonization?

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-29-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-29-2004).]

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A mindset that says it's ok to silence those saying things we don't want to hear

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I disagree. All I see when I look at this situation is a guy who got pissed off at another guy who was - aside from simply "speaking his mind" - being a disruptive jerk.

Is it how I would like to see him behave? No. But simply cannot see any larger application of this behavior based on one guy's lack of self control.

Do I see "right-wingers" as evil? Not per se.

I see George and George W Bush as Evil. I see Rush Limbaugh as evil. I see many indivuals as evil, and many of them happen to be "right-wingers". I also see many "left-wingers" as evil.

I also, more importantly, see people who would seek to indetify themselves along such lines, and make judgements based on whether an issue is considered left or right wing as evil (note: I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm speaking in general).

Bugs:

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Take the other side. How many times have I been linked to suspicion because of people like Falwell and Robertson? People assume I think fundamentally like they do about politics because they are right wingers and so am I.

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Well personally speaking I judge everyone on their own merits

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I'll take the liberty of posting this:

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News - January 28, 2004

Al Franken rousts heckler from Dean rally

Union Leader Staff


MANCHESTER ? Liberal activist and comedian Al Franken helped eject a boisterous heckler from a crowded Howard Dean rally at the Palace Theatre Monday, the theater?s manager said yesterday.

The heckler began yelling from the rear of the theater while the Democratic Presidential hopeful was taking questions from the audience, theater manager Peter Ramsey said.

Two members of Dean?s security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.

?He was screaming. He was out of control,? Ramsey said.

Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.

?All of a sudden, I looked to my right, and Al Franken was grabbing onto this man?s back,? Ramsey said.

?He (Franken) gave him a hefty Patriots block. He should be a Patriot,? Ramsey said.

?I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero,? Ramsey said of the former ?Saturday Night Live? writer.

Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.

When a second heckler ? apparently working in tandem with the first ? emerged from the audience, Dean security men and Franken went over to deal with him while the first protester headed to the balcony, Ramsey said.

While Ramsey pursued the first man to the balcony, he said, he saw Franken and three other men escort the second heckler out the stage door.

Once in the balcony, Ramsey encountered a more disturbing sight.

The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.

?I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean,? Ramsey said.

One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler ?kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback.?

?The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something,? Wendy Branch of Northwood said. ?Even if he didn?t intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming.?

Ramsey said the heckler left quietly after Ramsey threatened to call the police. But Ramsey figured the more likely reason the protester left was that few television cameras were set up in the balcony.

Ramsey said Dean?s staff told him the protesters were supporters of fringe Presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche.

Franken told the New York Post he body-slammed the demonstrator to the ground.

?I got down low and took his legs out,? Franken told the newspaper.

Franken said he is not backing Dean, but merely wanted to protect free-speech rights.

?I would have done it if he was a Dean supporter at a Kerry rally,? he told the Post.
Dateline . . . Manchester

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http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=32449

So with freedom of speech in mind are they allowed to eject hecklers (esp. as it looks like a coordinated attempt to disrupt the meeting)?

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I don't see this as a free speech issue on either side of the coin.

The heckler's actions were not inhibiting free speech, and and his/their ejection from the event did not inhibit free speech.

This article puts this in a bit of a different light, and I have even less reason to condemn Franken's actions - in fact all I can see is that he jumped in and helped out...

~shrug~

Doesn't seem very fascist to me...

Had this been a heckler at a Bushe rally, he would probably be in prison right now.

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Jestah, do you think the left is so immune from corruption that introspection is pointless? I am constantly questioning myself and my "right wing wacko"ness. Have you ever in your life tried introspection?

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Absolutely not Bugimus. I do, however, have enough common sense to know one action from an individual is hardly a reflection on an entire group the individual might be a part of - this appears to be sense which is not all that common to you. There are plenty of terrible people in this world. There are many ConReps out there who are terrible racists. Do I suppose you are a terrible racist because of this? Of course not.

Statements such as "[t]hey speak of freedom and rights but when someone exercises that right in a way unacceptable to them, they resort to shutting them up" are ignorant and a direct reflection on your ignorance. I'm curious, do you really believe that all of what you consider to be the left wing speak of freedom and rights but when someone exercises that right in a way unacceptable to them, they resort to shutting them up?

I think there was only one accurate thing you said in your entire first post of this thread - "I'm such an idiot!!!"

Jestah

Name calling? Why am I not surprised you would end with that instead of a real point?

Fine, let's just stipulate that I am an idiot if that makes you feel better. I have tried more times than I care to count to have an intelligent and honest discussion with you, Jestah. You are either incapable, or simply unwilling, to reciprocate. This makes me sad. But I will continue to try anyway.

I am not saying that I am basing my entire concern on the single action of Al Franken in this instance.

I am saying that this single action of Al Franken on this occasion brought up an analogy in my mind of a concern I've had about the left for some time now. I chose this article to "spice up" my expression of that concern. I'm very sorry this was lost on you especially after all the clarifications that have ensued since the original post.

DL, that's an interesting follow up story that fleshes out the sequence of events. It bothers me that Franken thinks that tackling hecklers defends free speech though and I think it does speak to his values. I totally agree that the security team has every right to escort the protestors out.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-01-2004).]

You're entire first post in this thread was absolutely stupid and ignorant, Bugimus. The only remotely intelligent thing you said was that you were stupid. That is a real point. If you're going to make stupid claims and accusations don't be so surprised when you're called stupid.

To tell you the truth it makes me sad that we're unable to have an intelligent discussion. At one point I considered you as one of the more intelligent members of this community. Now I'm not entirely sure who I could have a more substancial conversation with, you or Vog's mop. Take for example this thread. In it, I claim a persons actions are not reflective of a group that person may belong to. On the other hand, you wonder if "the leftsts" are "fascists in disguise" because of a fight that broke out at a rally. Yet, I'm the one incapable or unwilling to take part in an intelligent and honest discussion?

Jestah

Did you just read the first post and nothing further?

[edit] Actually, if you read my first post you will see that I say "some of the Left" and I ask a question as to whether my fears are justified. Are you telling me that asking a question of my "friends" on the Left is stupid and ignorant?

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-01-2004).]

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...you were stupid.

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Because I didn't proof read my topic title, yes, I was. Have you ever heard me call YOU stupid? When you say my thread is stupid and ignorant, that is one thing. Calling ME stupid is quite another.

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It bothers me that Franken thinks that tackling hecklers defends free speech

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I think it's silly of him to claim such a lofty thing, but it doesn't particularly bother me.

He's wrong, IMO, but I can sort of see what he means by it.

As for Jestah - I suppose it is about that time again....the periodic jestah chest thumping time. I wouldn't let it bother you. It seems to make him feel better....

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I am saying that this single action of Al Franken on this occasion brought up an analogy in my mind of a concern I've had about the left for some time now. I chose this article to "spice up" my expression of that concern.

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So you used this because it´s a recent event, and sounds interesting - but still, you did not provide any concrete example of what you are actually concerned about. "Silencing opinions"? Tell me more! All the juicy details the evil leftist propaganda won´t tell us! A comedian getting into a fight just doesn´t make me terribly concerned about the future of free speech (even if he is, as you repeatedly insisted, a well known comedian and has ties to the democratic party).

You say this action and the (as admitted by most posters) questionable attempt to rationalize it reflect on the values of Franken, and because he is connected with the Dems, on the values of the entire party, and even the entire left - which is quite a far stretch. Again, if you can come up with something more substantial to explain why you consider anyone on the left a potential fascist in disguise, I´m all ears.

On the other hand, you chose to completely ignore each and every remark on this thread that was made about the right wing´s interpretation of "freedom of speech". Not something like (to choose the only hypothetical example that comes to me at the moment) Rush Limbaugh pushing around a liberal, but actual legislation by the actual government, the actual Republican party, which can hardly be interpreted as anything but "silencing opinions".

BTW, how do you think a corporate criminal in the white house reflects on the values of the Republicans and the right wing in general?

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...corporate criminal in the white house...

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I'm sorry, who are we talking about there? Bush or one of his minions?

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you chose to completely ignore each and every remark on this thread that was made about the right wing´s interpretation of "freedom of speech".

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Take it easy, no I didn't. I responded to the free speech zones. And I specifically stated in my opening that "I know my side has its problems too and I am open to discussing those at any time". In this particular thread, I am trying to focus on the issue I'm bringing up. I've been engaged in plenty of other threads decrying the evil right wing.

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if you can come up with something more substantial to explain why you consider anyone on the left a potential fascist in disguise

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I think that would be helpful. Let me pull together some examples of what I'm talking about.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-02-2004).]

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"I was a wrestler so I used a wrestling move,"

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Hahaha.. I love Al Franken!

He's always stirring up trouble, and getting sued.

Yes I've read your posts Bugimus. Those on the left are fascists in disguise and Al Franken is so well connected that he's really running the Democratic Party. As I've said a few times now those ideas are stupid. It would be just as stupid for me to conclude that you're racist, sexist, and homophobic because a few Republicans are. It's not chest-thumping or whatever DL claims it to be its just the truth.

Jestah