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Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 92064
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 02-17-2004 05:21

Hamas calls for wave of suicide attacks after 15 Palestinians die

The Hamas logic is a bit strange: "if our people are killed, send our people to kill themselves."

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-17-2004 14:36

Their objective is actually very logical and very easy to understand. They want the Zionist entity removed. They are not interested in any settlement that does not satisfy that objective. Quite simply, they hate the Jews more than they love their own lives and that is why they will continue to fight for their cause until they are all dead. We've discussed this problem before, and I think the consensus is that we will not see an end to this struggle for many years to come.

. . : slicePuzzle

Bipolar (III) Inmate

Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 02-17-2004 15:25

Of course, there is another way to look at it.

Palestinians are in such a horrible situation that they view their own lives as worth little when compared to the freedom of their people. Suicide bombings are a tactic -- not significantly different from the waves of infantry who stormed out of their trenches or onto defended beaches in WWI and II, knowing most of them would be instantly chopped down by machine gun fire.

Both see it as giving their lives for a greater cause.

The reality of the situation is a little of both. I believe MOST Palestinians would back down from Hamas' anti-Zion campaign, if they were guaranteed some minimum amount of human dignity. People don't want to kill themselves. Mothers do not want their sons to strap on dynamite! Palestinian or otherwise, this is not what people want. People want freedom, safety, and a reasonable standard of living...and people will fight for those things in whatever manner they can.

Hamas is 'extremist', no doubt. The Israeli gov'ts have made it a point -- a tactic openly used -- to drive Palestinians into such horrible conditions that 'moderation' becomes impossible and 'extremism' is the only logical conclusion.

Some people seem to be saying that 'if only the Palestinians would lay down, let the Israelis bash their children's heads against boulders, this would all be OK.' It is not irrational to fight for a job, food, land of one's own, dignity, basic health care, clean water, a home, a way to make a living or a little control over one's political process. It is human nature!

To blame this all on the Palestinians, or even Hamas, is either blind naivety or an amazing exercise in self-deception. Either way, it's not a fair or balanced look at the situation and it won't solve the problems. Israel is just as much to blame -- perhaps even more so! -- for this situation as the Palestinians.

Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 02-17-2004 15:45


Who gains from the deplorable living conditions that the Palestinians find themselved in? Who has been content with that situation for all these 50 or so years?

It is not in Israel's interest to have the Palestinians living in poverty. They have been willing to live in peaceful coexistence with an Arab state since the day the UN declared TWO states, one Jewish and one Arab in the region.

Who rolled tanks into which territory after that decision? Make no mistake. This is NOT about the Israelis keeping the Palestinians down, this is about a strategy of using the Palestinian refugees as a tool to win the war that was started the day Israel became a state.

The Palestinians will incur a world of hurt when they begin to stand up for their OWN dignity and determine once and for all to rid themselves of the extremist groups like Hamas and the like. The extremists will turn on the citizenry with a vengeance and their will be much blood spilled but at the end of the day, once the people decide they have had enough of this madness things will change for the better.

I do not release Israel from all blame and it would be a huge mistake to take that from my words. My point is that mistakes are made on both sides as always but once you have a side that is willing to NEGOTIATE and another side who is NOT, for whatever reason, you have to focus on the side who refuses to compromise.

Please explain why you say Israel is primarily to blame when it is the Arabs states who refuse to take Palestinian refugees and know that keeping them impoverished only serves the end goal?

. . : slicePuzzle

Bipolar (III) Inmate

Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 02-17-2004 17:50

Your implication is that the Arabs (by that I think you mean non-Palestinian Arabs -- perhaps Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc) are the ones responsible for Palestinian poverty.

It is not Syrian bulldozers that crush Palestinian schools, orchards and water treatment plants. Nor is it Jordan rockets that blow up entire blocks of apartment buildings to kill one suspect. Nor is it Egyptian tanks that shoot at ambulances. Nor Saudi troops that impose 24-7 curfews, harass random people at roadblocks or prevent pregnant women from getting to hospitals to deliver their babies.

It is ABSOLUTELY in Israel's interest to have the Palestinians living in poverty! (at least in the short-term)
The most important thing it does is drive the Palestinians into desperate situations where they will be:
a) more willing to associate with extremist groups
b) more willing to concede more and more for less -- for anything at all.

A second thing it does is strengthen Israel's economy:
a) providing easy export of Israeli goods
b) providing VERY cheap labor to Israeli companies (unemployement in all of the Palestinian territories is VERY high. In most places around 60%, in some places > 80%)

Israeli gov't document after Israeli gov't speech has said over and over again, their strategy is to drive the Palestinians into total hopelessness. They will be starved to death. Their lives will be kep miserable and hopeless.

The Palestinian Authority is (largely) a secular organization. That being said, there is a CONSIDERABLE amount of influence by religious fanatics (Hamas is just one.)

I will never argue this point. Ever.

What I will argue, is the best way to go about doing it. Hamas can not be bombed or starved out of existance -- especially when that includes the bombing and starving of an entire population. That tactic will not work. The only way to get rid of these organizations is to offer an alternative that offers real solutions.

We both agree that the Palestinians are not in stable, free, livable conditions.
Right now, Hamas is the only organization doing anything to help that situation (in the eyes of the average Mohammed Palestinian.) The Palestinian Authority is a corrupt and powerless entity. International workers are either not allowed in or shot on site by IDF. The extremists are the only ones left.

Everytime somebody's wife dies in childbirth on a dirt road...everytime another water treatment plant gets bombed...everytime somebody's olive grove gets destroyed Israel strengthens its perception in the eyes of Palestinians that it is arrogant, destructive, violent, and opposed to peace.
IDF admits to targeting fresh water wells, water treatment plants, schools and hospitals. Is that really good policy? Do you really think that can solve the problems?
Do you really think that blowing up another apartment complex, torturing another child, or knocking down 30 more houses will lead to peace?

Finally, we get to the point of negotiations. I would argue that Israel is not negotiating in good faith. Western press accounts to the contrary, as each day passes, the 'facts on the ground' continue to show more Israeli settlers destroying more Palestinian homes and taking possesion of more settlement land than the day before. That is not good faith.

In the town of Rafah (pop. 120,000), in Gaza, there have been 430 homes destroyed since Oct 2003, leaving more than 2000 people homeless. The boundry of the city has been moved back 150 meters and that area has been filled with Israeli settlers and soldiers. Since Sept 2000 almost 15,000 people have been made homeless, in this town alone, by Israeli bulldozer and settler.
Can you imagine a foreign army coming into your town and destroying the homes and livelihoods of more than 10% of the population? Would you be convinced they were 'peaceful'?

This wonderful wall is destroying untold amounts of Palestinian villages, homes, farms and businesses. The end result will NOT be a seperate Israel and Palestine, as claimed. The end result will be a seperate Isreal and the Palestinian territories split into over 80 sections, seperate from each other. That's not autonomy! That is more than 80 seperate prisons of steel, concrete and guns. The wall prevents Palestinians from visiting a neighboring town just as much as it prevents them from going into Israel. The goal is not to prevent terrorism, but to commit genocide of the Palestinians -- ethnically cleanse Israel. I do not use the word 'genocide' loosely. I am absolutly convinced this is a goal and intended outcome of Arial Sharon's policies.

Does that seem like honest negotiation to you?

Israel is the more powerful party. Israel has the bigger guns. Israel has the most money. Israel commits the most violence. Israel destroys the most property. Israel kills the most people. Regardless the excuses for any of that, Israel is in control of the situation to a much greater extent than the Palestinians are.

Israel is the entity occupying land. Israel is the entity that systimatically uses torture. Israel is the entity that has imposed huge amounts of violence and oppression against a civilian population. Israel is the one continuing to steal land today. Israel has the backing of the largest economic and military power in the world.

Israel is the only party in the region who can start the process of peace. That is why I say it is primarily Israel's responsibility to solve the problem equitably.

This does not take away responsibility from the Palestinians, other Arab nations, or anybody else in the world. But Israel must -- is the only party who can -- make the first move.

[edit: misspelling -- fat fingers.]

[This message has been edited by mobrul (edited 02-17-2004).]

Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 02-17-2004 17:53
They have been willing to live in peaceful coexistence with an Arab state since the day the UN declared TWO states

For starters, we must rea from different history books....

Secondly, it is more in Israel's interest to agree with the UN decision, seeing as they basically came in and displaced the palestinians. If the UN suddenly decided that half of california would now instead belong to Mexico, and you needed to move to the other half and stay there while they destroyed your home(s) to build their own,.....I have to assume that would cause some friction for you.

The long running historical problems in the region and a general ignorance in the populace perpetuated by ridiculous religious and ethnic disputes only serves to fuel this on both sides.

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 92064
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 02-17-2004 18:26

I see we have a few confused Israel apologists here. What a shame.

Israel and Palestine are equally terroristic states. However, Israel is simply supported by US funds which enables them to be more devastating than Palestine.

g2g more on this when I return.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 02-17-2004).]

Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: [s]underwater[/s] under-snow in Juneau
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 02-17-2004 19:26

What Palestine and Israel need is a common enemy. If we could just get North Korea to declare war on both of them......

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