Preserved Topic: Augh! Potential job offer

OK, so, this friend of mine calls me saying that the drugstore in the next town over wants a web page, and she knew I can do that, so I sort of have the opportunity to make some money here.

So I'm a little nervous and all, because I have absolutely no idea how to go about doing this.

They're a drugstore. I'm not sure what kind of content they have available; they might just be looking for a sort of online advertisement, and you know as well as I do that that makes for a crappy web site. On the other hand, I have no experience working with databases or anything of the sort, so I certainly am unable to create any sort of online shopping site.

Anyway, I'm asking for advice from people who have done freelance webdesign here. I have a vague idea that I'm going to want some sort of contract to give them... if that's true, I'd appreciate any pre-made ones that anyone may have.

I dunno. I'm all nervous that I'll promise something I can't offer or that I'll get screwed out of a decent pay (how much *should* i charge?) or that the finished product will be really bad and/or pointless and there's nothing i'll be able to do about it.

Also, we all know that a good web page isn't static. But how can I work for a period of time on this and bring it to a completed state, and then *stop* working on it, but make it non-static?

Alright... just, give me whatever advice you have to offer. I haven't even really contacted the people who want the page yet. I said I'd get back to the person who called me in a day or two.

Im kinda in a similar situation, this guy I know through working in a net cafe, wants me to make a site for is audiobooks he sells on ebay, with shopping cart stuff ?? Im like okay coz I need the money etc.. and he's gonna pay me in % of profit, which I think will be good.

Im like you I know little CGI or any server style databases, though I do know a friend I will probably call upon for help if needed. He tells me the whole MySQL thing, [is that what its called ?] is really easy to learn and use.

But I recon I'll be able to make the shopping cart in JavaScript with cookies ![did this occur to you ? I didnt cop on it could be done with JS , untill recently it hit me like a rock in the face, I was just wippeee this is gonna be easy] making it better because the user wont have to blink between pages, I'll have a dhtml layer fly about with details. and then a simple form to send it off. He tells me he'll do the server secureness stuff, I have a feeling he's a linux wizz, dunno really though ???

I'd say go for it , dont make huge promises, and like think "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it" I'd say asylumites in the server side section [not that ive been there] will be more than happy to help.

have you seen cgi-resources.com <- very handy

um, yup so good luck, and to me too

How much to charge ? - How big is the drugstore

Well Slime, find out exactly what they want

Im confident whatever it is your more then qualified to do and even if it is a bit over your head Im sure you can get great advice from the guys around here. Pricings up to you. Charge what you feel the job requires. You might want to search the net and find out what others charge.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Not sure if this will help or not but you can get a sample Non-Disclosure Agreement and Memorandum of Engagement here.
http://www.secretsites.com/legal/set_legal.html

A few of the sites I have done I simply went with the MOE with some established penalties for late changes and a handshake for a contract.

Slime.. hit the Outpatient Counseling forum and search around the back issues...

the answers are there...


btw.... I made a store for an old client so if you want some help, just come a'knocking..


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

See this thread here for pricing, and hourly rates vs fixed rates... http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum5/HTML/000142.html

Go get'em Slime!!! You got my full support...ask away...

Good thing Slime!!
I've been adviced here always about that, and now i can tell:
you are the 'webmaster' so, you tell them what they need! try to search their possibilities on the web and expose it to them! try to convince them (with solid arguments) why they need what you say, and listen to their ideas (in fact, you should listen to their ideas first, and then propose the final project yourself).

The database thing, hummmm, dunno, but can't you hire anyother web designer that manage that and pay him to do it? off course, see that what they pay you compense that!!!

What could a drugsture need? some kind of 'urgent buy' section? some 'visit the doctor' section? with some medicines advice (they will have to check those advise are legals), some recipies? why a drugtore is better than other one? try to find it out and expose that on the web site!

=) I hope to help just a little, i know this is complicated the first time!!

A sig should be here.....
But is not.

Congrats Slime!

But I do not totally agree with Wakkos. I'm not sure you should tell them what they need. After all, they are the specialists within *their* trade.

You should get them to explain what they want their site to accomplish. The goal for their online presence. NOT how they want it to look and how it should work.
After you figured out what they want to do online (basicly "Why do you want a site?"), your area of expertise begins;

You're the one asking the right questions (updates, maintenance shop/no-shop and so on) and you can tell them whether certain things work out on the web or not. But I do not think you should tell them what to do or not, since they know their present customer behaviour and business needs.

As I said sometime earlier, my daily work is to manage projects and get people building browser applications, and nothing annoys me more than when a new consultant comes in and starts telling me how we as a company should run our business online, without knowing how we work offline.

Collaboration is what will get you there. Just be humble to their knowledge about their business, and they will respect your expertise.

Good luck!



[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 05-25-2002).]

Slime, Krets is into drugs (huhuhuhuh), so you might want to ask him all those questions about the drug trade...


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Wow, this rocks Slime! I'd be a little nervous, get yourself psyched up before you call them, but there's no need to be *too* nervous, you really know quite a good deal about this stuff! :-)

I think you need to come to a compromise, instead of telling them what they need, or going in simply waiting to hear what they might want, offer them a few options that they *could* go for, and give them a rough idea of what these things would cost, like this...

1) You could do the simplest form of "brochure-ware". They can use this option primarily to get themselves a foothold online, and brand themselves more fully. What value can they get from this? Aside from the usual "who we are, what we have" stuff, there is important information that is easier to display this way, like a) here's a map to our pharmacy, and directions from different parts of town. Also, the pharmacy is open from X:00 to Y:00. A prominent display somewhere with something like "Emergency? Call our pharmacist at 555-1212, we'll have everything ready for you when you arrive." (A link to the map might be appropiate here.)

2) They could (and should) do the above parts, but also perhaps they want to enter the exicting world of e-commerce, but in a more maneageable way at first? For this option they would probably want to create a small sample "shop" with certain items showcased, (probably not the drugs, heh.) For this option we'd probably want to choose a dozen or two common, mid-priced items that pharmacies also sell, and build a simple javascript/cgi based store. The main goal for this would be to settle on the correct shopping "metaphor", we don't want to invest tens of thousands to build a complete, high-level store, only to find that people don't like it! When people finalize an order this way, we have some interesting ways to complete the porders, perhaps we don't even ship or handle credit cards, instead a stopre employee "picks" the order and has it all ready at the counter, then the customers show up, pay, and take their stuff.

3) You could build a complete, high-level e-commerce store, complete with databases, SSL connections for credit card acceptance, every product digitized and stored, sell to the entire world, yay! At this stage in the presenation, I'd usually explain that this can be a *very* pricey option, and exposes us to certain risks. Also explain that while you *could* do this right now, you'd have to call in some additional consultants to work on the back-end structures, and the whole thing could take months. I tell people to "learn to walk before you learn to run", so best to start with option #2.

Once you've explained what kind of general options they can shoot for, they'll probably be *very* curious about pricing by now! As you can tell from reading the options above, each of those options could be considered a "phase" of the building. ie: You can't choose number 2 without also having done #1, and you shouldn't do #3 until you've tested things with #2. So what do they cost?

The first "brochure-ware" site with maps and phone numbers, along with the basic info about the store, this can be done simply, or with a 'basic' publishing system (using PHP. I've got one you can have.) This will probably take you 40-60 hours to complete, and you want to make $X/hour, so do the math and quote a price. (Please, don't work for less than $20/hour. Ideally, you should be at least $60/hour or more! (I charge $90/per myself.))

If they want option #2 also, figure out how long that would take for you to do, and simply add the hours time your rate, that's the cost. You might decide to hedge on giving them a cost for this one at first, before you can quote it you have to create a "specification" of what features they needd to make it go, in detail! It'd probably take another 40-60 hours at my guesstimate.

If they want option #3? Well, if they want that option, I'd urge them to wait and build the first two first. Your goal is to help these people do the right thing, and it's premature to make a major decision like that when we already have two obvious steps to take beforehand. Let's build Phase #1 and phase #2, then we can all have a meeting and evaluate how things are working for all involved, perhaps get a few customers to give us feedback on how it works for them? Chances are they'll never get to this point, but it's nice to let them know that they *could* get here eventually.

-------------------------

OK, you did the pitch, they loved your analysis, and now you can get the job - hooray! What's the next step? What I usually do is to write out the description of "what I'm going to do", (in detail), and also "what their responsibilities are". Be as complete as you can, don't leave any parts vague, describe what each top level buttons does, and how many pages might be under each. The more complete you are, the less chance of disputes.

Also in this document, specify the time plan for the project, when you expect to have parts (x, y, z) completed, and what feedback you'll expect from them once it's delivered, you want them to "sign off" on each phase, this makes it easier to get paid! You also want to discuss how you want to get paid, a lump sum at the end of the project? Perhaps a percentage now, and the rest later? What about if they start changing their mind n the middle of the project, will there be extra costs for the extra time you'll have to spend? How much will this cost them? ($X/hour, probably.)

At the bottom, so it's easy to read, list the prices, they'll want to know ASAP, heh.

Phase 1: (description) ... $3000
Phase 2: (description) ... $3600 (or TBD?)
Phase 3: (description) ... Price to be determined, after specification.

-Any unusual changes to the structure and/or feature set that are required will be billed at the additional rate of $XX/hour. Client will be notified beforehand (in writing) if any such charges are required. (You should also have explained this bit to them beforehand. Explain that you're a reasonable guy, but if they tell you to throw away weeks of work and start over again, well, you need to be paid for this! Chances are that you're all such good friends this will never come up, but you have to cover your a**, etc...)

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That would cover it all, working as I usually work! Let me know if I missed anything or left anything out, I'll do my best to make things clear. That paper you send them with prices, this is a legal document of sorts, even though it's not full of "legalese". What you write in the description and what they agree to is something that would of course be called up in court if any disputes arrived. (Watch "People's Court" a few times, and picture how much Judge Wapner would be influenced by this document!) Don't worry about that aspect too much, OK? Good luck and have fun!

Your pal, -doc-

Do I smell a thread for the FAQ?



'Me no here. Me go bye. Leave me message. Me reply.'

Wolfen's Sig Site

Slime, I'm in a similar situation with a bar. I figured the niche at hand would be the updated listings of events that go on...like bands and such. I would say go to the store and look for any oddities that this particular store may have over another. If it's your typical corner store, they usually sell cell phones, pagers and what not (in my area anyway). Maybe you could market these things and boost that aspect of his selling. It's hard to promise the owners of places like that increased sales and traffic, but I think if you just visit them and look for a clincher you'll be good to go.

Ah, thanks everyone, this has helped. I'm still a bit worried about some things, but I suppose I just have to talk to them and find out what they want.

A couple things still concern me. Doc, you said not to work for under $20/hr. Yikes! I'd feel guilty asking for anything more than that! I've never even worked for $10. Then again, I've never done a website for money, either.

The other thing that concerns me is still this idea of an online shop. Of course, I don't know that they'll even want this, but if they *do*, I had better be able to at least say I can make something small for them. But there are details... wouldn't it need a secure connection (SSL)? How can I get that? Then, I (a) have *no* idea how to deal with credit cards, but if I don't do that, then I'll need some way of immediately getting the information to, say, a pharmacist or someone; how would i go about sending the information to them immediately?

I'll probably end up saying something like "If you want an online store, I can work in that direction, but I'm going to have to get some help from other people and it may go slowly."

Deep breath. Any more advice anyone has is still appreciated =)

Slime:
I think the guys covered it all but just another 2 cents.
Ask them,or better still inquire around, and find out who
their competition is - and check out competitive sites - see how these
sites are structured and how you can improve on these sites.
(obviously you need to determine the scope of the project - is it
just a "corporate presence" or "Brochure ware" as Doc said or is
it e-commmerce. If the latter you will have to understand all the FDA
(you are amercian yes?) rules as well.


As far as "telling them what they need" this is a mutual process.
You must understand their business and then make your recommendations
In this way you are seen as a partner, not just a "doer". Most companies
will respect you if try to act as an "added-value" consultant rather than
just a service provider.

Someone suggested offering non-disclosures....big mistake, don't sign
or create paperwork that will come back to haunt you later....only
sign what they ask you to sign..don't be the one to create paperwork
that only protects your client.

quote:

---

I'll probably end up saying something like "If you want an online store, I can work in that direction, but I'm going to have to get some help from other people and it may go slowly."

---

That's exactly what you tell them, maybe not in those words...just tell them you will
manage the whole project - you're the general contractor - it's ok to sub-contract out.

one thing to keep in mind...selling drugs is not like selling candies....their are HUGE implications about privacy not just secure credit card transactions....for example a patient who is ordering drugs for his HIV doesn't exactly want it to slip into the public domain right?

again, if the scope of the project means e-commerce, then check out the popular drug websites and you will see exactly what payment software/methodology they use...and check out their privacy page to see how they ensure privacy..that should also reveal what approach they use to ensure confidentiality...

I was thinking about what kind of "store" you could create for these people, something that would be right up your alley, yet something that would also be an interesting business concept for them that might even make them some extra money!

I'm sure with javascript you could make some kind of shopping cart, and save all of the values people pick, (say in a hidden frame.) For this to work there would be *no* credit card payments online, which would mean no need for heavy security. What would have to happen after people make their orders is that the info gets sent to the store, so they could print it out and gather together the "order". Those things would be waiting for you at the register when you arrive - it'd be cool, I'd use it.

You may have to learn just a little bit of PHP to write orders to the server, but this is really not too hard, I picked it up in an evening, and I'm willing to pass my code over to you (maybe 20 lines worth) which you could use for learning. You could have some fun here, maybe the store would have a different version of the "site" they use for themselves, and the new orders could get pushed to their screen, that'd be way cool, and is something we could do, I'm sure.

Yes, you're worth at least $20/hour! Get used to it, it's the right price. (The *low* end of the right price.) If anyone freaks on that number, point out that as a freelancer, you don't get pay like this for 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year; instead you only get that money when you're actually working. Most people will stop, realize how much they good off in a day, and shut up about it.

Your pal, -doc-

Slime:
$20/hour does indeed sound very cheap. but it's supply and demand,
what the market can bear, etc. that dictates the price.

why not just check out web designers in your area and ask for a quote
or see if they advertise their rates on their sites....they will probably
quote per job so you'll have to estimate the hours.

consultants always add overhead to their rates. for example, if you are
self-employed and making 20/hour for a 37-40 hour work week that's
about $40,000 annualized. but as a consultant you are also responsible
for you health plan, retirement plan, electricity, heating, phone, office space,
pc, printer, games, beer, drugs, etc....so $20 seems pretty damn fair.

I posted this here: http://faq.ozoneasylum.com/FaqWiki/shownode.php?id=472

if you lock/delete/archive this thread, please update the FAQ....


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Slime: I've started a new section in the FAQ on shopping carts:
http://faq.ozoneasylum.com/FaqWiki/shownode.php?sortby=&id=469

and there is a general Commerce (should I change that to e-commence??) section where (I hope) issues like SSL and credit cards can be addressed.

The PHPShop has a couple of great tutorials and, as the Doc says, for starters you could collect people's order but later you would then be in a position to add credit card billing, etc. if you wanted.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

[edit: I've started a section on accepting payment at: http://faq.ozoneasylum.com/FaqWiki/shownode.php?sortby=rating&id=473 ]

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