Preserved Topic: pledge ruled unconstitutional (Page 3 of 3)

"liberty and justice for all"

Don't go on about how the pledge shouldn't be molded for the individual. That is a farse look at the document you are describing. If you want to have your justice and liberty for all you need to cater to every one. I would also like to point out that your arguement that we would be showing a faith in "all peoples gods" were that the case it would not be written "God" but "god."

The motive is clearly to evoke the christian god in the pledge, which has been proven.

By statistices the united states is 76.5% Christian with a 13.2% population which is non-religious/secular, there is then a spattering of other religious groups in the united states. Which since 1990 has dropped 10% from 86.2% and the non-religious/secular portion growing by 6% over the past 10 years. There are also stated to be thousands of different religious groups within the united states.

Our Constitution was designed to protect the minority and it has been doing its job. There is a "seperation of church and state" and this is what is being worked on here.

There is a growing diversity of religions in America and trends are currently changing. There is no more cold war and being non-religious no longer carries the connotation of being a subversive communist. Those who once were fearful of telling their true ideas no longer feel that way, they are able to speak their mind.

Just like in the world of web design. Even though Microsoft has the numbers doesn't mean that you don't need to work on solutions that appease Opera as well. You can not forget about any of the people involved or what they are using. You need to come up with an all encompassing solution, one that makes everyone happy.

That is what the pledge is about. Liberty for all, the ability to make everyone happy, to have everyone on equal footing.

As for that whole school thing, teachers are no longer able to beat the children either, and I am sure dicipline has gone downhill because of that. Maybe giving teachers back the right to whip children would make our school system better as well.

?Which have provided some of the worst PR for any concept in the history of the world. So, keep up the good work..."

You see by saying that you?re putting all people to claim to believe in God in a box and giving them a label and that's what I was trying to avoid. Not all people who claim to believe in God are Christians and not all people who claim to be Christians believe in God.

Religion has become a very twisted concept and I agree that most people claiming to be Christians set a horrible example of what a true believer in God is true like or believes.

The same has happened to the Muslims from "bad PR" from those claiming to be of that religion, because of the terrorists that have claimed to be of the Muslim religion. And then naturally all people of that faith were condemned for their belief and put into your little box and labeled.

Yes I do believe in God, the one true God spoken of in the bible but I am in no way like what you think you know about me or what your concept of a real Christian is. I don't force my beliefs on anyone and I don't condemn you for your different beliefs or the lack there of.

If you choose to believe that there is no God, then that is your right, I will tell you that you are wrong and you will have to answer for your decision later, but I?m not going to beat you over the head about it or think any less of you for it.

You can?t be saved and go to heaven because you?re a nice guy and do good works, nor will you get there from going to church every Sunday like the typical stereotype suggests.

This world and everything in it didn?t get here by chance and you didn?t come from monkeys, so why is everyone so quick to rule out there being a higher power ?a God? that did all this? And if you are willing to accept the fact that there is a God then why is it so hard to belive that he cares for you as well?

I know so many people that are wise enough to realize there is a God but refuse to believe that he cares for you and wants to get to know you personally.

They say ?well how can one God care for and know us all?? well he did make and single one of us and he did put the stars in the sky and he does keep the planets in perfect alignment and he did create a living breathing creation with a mind body and soul called we like to call ?humans? so why the hell is it so hard to believe that he knows us all by name?

I mean if he can do all that I find it pretty easy to believe that he knows us all and I don?t know why we are here if he doesn?t care about us? What is the thing we call existence? Is it all a game?

You can?t see the wind yet you believe it?s there without any other assurance other than your belief, why can?t you do the same towards a belief in God?

I have to get back to my work so I?m leaving this conversation, sorry if I hold a unpopular belief here,but in the end I know it?s the right one.

I hope you all choose to believe as well, but even the bible is clear that most people won't come to the true before it's too late, regardles this is the last you?ll ever hear about it from me.

Have a great rest of your night or day which ever the case may be...

I would say God bless you, but it's seems as though most of you could care less...



If we meet and you forget me, you have lost nothing, but if you meet Jesus Christ and forget him you have lost everything.

Not being american I'm not going to venture opinions in what is right or wrong in your consitiution or your pledge, but I must say that the very way that the pledge is OFFICIALLY written constitutes the Christian God as opposed to the general 'almighty deity' theory. God with a capital G, in all of the accepted texts and dictionaries refers not to a general deity, but to the christian idea of God. A lower case g means a general deity.

And also, forceing somebody to do or say something that they don't want to is the best way to take a downfall. This is refering to the Prayer in schools. As far as I have seen (and I'll admit all I've seen is through the media) the 'downfall' of American Society actually began before prayer was taken out of schools.

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

wow

and really...prayer is not compulsory in Australian schools, and we don't have a pledge of alegience...are you then saying that our society is on the way out?

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

Synthetic...WTF are you posting?

Are you seriously pushing the non-evolution theory? That all evidence to the contrary, you believe a book that was written by man over the geological records, and overwhelming evidence that supports the evolution theory, in favor of a book that has absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a god exists?

I suppose that you also believe that the earth is flat, and that the sun revolves around the earth, as well. And, of course, DNA can't exist, that is just a ludicrous lie, bent on discrediting the bible...

Man, I'm glad I am a citizen from a land that protects me from people like you. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. The rights granted me are also yours. Thank our lucky stars that it is so.

*shakes head*

Unbelievable...

Well, it takes all kinds...

What if you are wrong? Have you ever considered that? What if you are wrong? What if God says, 'Sorry old chap, but only Jews are allowed in Heaven...', or 'Well my boy, only Moslims are correct in their belief, and you had your chance...' or 'Whups! Only Hindus can enter Paradise...christian? Sorry, stage left...' or 'Ha! This here is the Happy Hunting Grounds...and seeing as you are not an indian, I don't think it will be very happy for you...Hehe'.

But maybe, just maybe, you are right (let's consider that for a moment)...so what? So only 1% of the entire race of Man (the % is probably smaller, when one considers all of Mankind across time...) gets to 'enter' this Heaven? Well, I guess I'll just have to join the crowd, now, won't I? Because it must be pretty lonely in this 'Heaven' of yours...barren, really. Not really a nice picture, is it? All those people in 'Hell' partying down, while you get to look down in isolation on us...well, my first beer will be for you...of course, you can exchange niceties with Jerry Farwell...or is he not on the list? Ok, maybe you can exchange words with Jesus...he is probably feeling pretty lonely, anyway...

Me, I'll be having a 'Hell' of a time...if you are right...I hope, for your sake, that you are not...

It's that kind of narrow thinking that makes my point even stronger...

It's easy to follow what the crowd says and what some idiot with a special degree tells you happened and then go off and believe in your evolution theory.

I mean that is the nice little coward?s way out, and you follow it quite well

It takes guts and faith to believe in something that the world says is wrong and can't be true and could even be unpopular. I know many friends that have died in a foreign countries for preaching their belief and trying to share the truth.

Why you are not constantly prosecuted for your belief? Because you have chosen the convent way out and refused to have faith in anything, you don?t have what it takes to go after something with all your heart and follow it no matter what the outcome.

One thing that does bother me is If you believe in your evolution theory, I fail to see how that accounts for the world and everything in it? I mean where did all this come from?

I?m sure you have a logical science backed answer for that as well? If so I?d love to hear it.

I want to know how the earth sits in perfect alignment.

Did you know that if the earth was one degree closer to the sun and we would all burn up and die, and if the earth was one degree farther away from the sun we would go into the next ice age?

That is well known science facts, well science has yet to explain why or how it?s that way, but I?m sure you have an answer right?

Or maybe you can tell me where the sun or the moon or even the earth itself came from?

Maybe you know why if we were evolved from monkeys, why we suddenly stopped evolving after we hit humanity? Or do you think were just taking a break and we are going to keep going?

Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.

Science suggests we have stopped evolving and will not continue, doesn?t say why it just says we stopped. Ok well I guess we are expected to just have faith and believe that what they are telling us is true then?. Oh wait I?m sorry you don?t have faith or believe in things that are not backed by science, so how is it you are able to take what they tell you as a fact then?

If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed.
Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.
Backed by science in your opinion or not isn?t the point here, signs of God?s existence are everywhere, if you choose to ignore them then that is your own fault.

I'd still love to hear how you can explain the mysteries of the world without believing in a higher power


If we meet and you forget me, you have lost nothing, but if you meet Jesus Christ and forget him you have lost everything.

First of all, Synthetic, I have been persecuted for my beliefs...from people like you. Unfortuneatly, you never asked me what I believe in, before going off...sad man, really sad.

Second, Man has been evolving...the entire time...where did you get the idea that that isn't true? Ever heard of the Neanderthals? So, we are Cro-magnons (sp?)...you know, Homo Sapians...and yes, we have evolved...and continue to do so...but that must go against your beliefs, right? Thought so. Too bad the Aboriginies exist (though the christian church did everything it could to 'eraticate' them). And why? Well, you do know that the Aboriginals of Australia have a known (read - proven) history that goes back 250,000 years, right? Oh, you didn't know that...too bad, for the Bible, isn't it? Actually, recent evidence suggests that the Aboriginal culture is over 500,000 years old...whups! Now that really doesn't 'jive' with what you think you know...oh boy. That must really be depressing...

So of course, you must be against all this...otherwise, the Bible just doesn't make any sense, now, does it? Well, them's the breaks...

Welcome to reality...

And as for the rest...why should I look all this stuff up, and then spit it out for you? Do the work yourself...there's this thing called Google...great way of informing yourself...I do it all the time...

Man, School must of been really wild for you...all those lies...did you go to college? That must of been really depressing...they can lie really well, now, can't they? In fact, they are all lying, aren't they...it's a huge conspiricy, I tell ya...just to get you. Yep, I guess those 'rare' individuals that believe, um...that the 'aliens' are here are pretty hard pressed for their beliefs...even prossecuted...man, they have it hard...because they know the truth...

No wait...what about David Coresh (name?)...that guy down in Texas (well, was...)...he knew the truth, now didn't he? Man, he must be a Saint, or something, because he really paid for his beliefs...you know, this list could get long with all those examples of people being persecuted for their beliefs...

But then, you don't really believe that they really have the one, only truth...right?

Because they don't believe as you do...poor, misguided sops that they are...

Starting to get the picture?

Actually, I'd be content to let you believe as you do...doesn't bother me...until you start affecting others that don't believe as you do, and don't want to...

Then it becomes a problem.

You don't see me damning others because they don't believe as I do. And I'm not interested in changing the world, or laws to that effect.

Why should I do that? Think about it...

Well since you completly avoided "all" my questions you obviously know far less than I gave you credit for...

oh well, go have fun in your so called reality, i'm just fine in this one, thank you just the same though.

I can see this discussion going no where, i should have realized you can't try to discuss anything with a closed mind.

Later all, I'll leaving this discussion now...


If we meet and you forget me, you have lost nothing, but if you meet Jesus Christ and forget him you have lost everything.

[This message has been edited by Synthetic (edited 07-01-2002).]

Ok...this is getting slow to load. Here's the new one:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum1/HTML/004864.html

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live