Preserved Topic: New visitors from the Far East

It is good to see a number of new inmates popping up here (this forum) from China and Korea. I was reading an article a while back which suggested that the increase in non-Western European language sites (in itself a good thing) could lead to an increasing ghettoisation (sp?) of the Internet. I'm sure there must be plenty of great resources in, for example, Japanese that most of us never get to see due to the language differences (I know some of my very specific searches throw up Korean or Japanese sites - InI also mentioned something in Korean)

Some questions:

1. Is there anything that we designers with a western hemisphere focus can do to help create a more joined up Internet (a slight oxymoron but I think you get the point)? We are translating tutorials in the GN redesign:
www.gurusnetwork.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=9

hypothetically would it be useful if we offered, e.g., Chinese versions of those tutorials?

2. Are there any great resources (Photoshop, coding) out there that we just don't have access to due to the dramatic language differences (admittedly one way in most cases!!)? Feel free to post links.

Are there other issues that I've not mentioned?

Emps

Wow, now that is indeed a couple of very good, interesting questions, and I, for one, would be very interested in feedback in this area. Bring it on!

I remeber a while back while searching for a specific povray tutorial I kept getting a (i think) korean page that had an english title the described exactly what I wanted. I was bummed.

Japanese/Chinese/Korean Guru Tuts would be very cool too and would probably help bring in some new ideas and perspectives too.

Well, let me be the first to speak from the Far East Brigade .

First of all, some general thoughts on the nature of communication on the Internet. As you all probably realize (and Emps has alluded to), the language of the Internet is still English. Like it or not, if you want to access a majority of the info on the Internet, you need to have a basic command of the English language. However, the increasing number of non-English sites on the Internet means that there is more information available to those who may not speak English well. That being said, the Internet-savvy Asian surfers speak English well enough to access English-language info, and now they have access to information (not always the same info) in their native language. I think this actually gives them an advantage over those who do not speak their particular language.

I can only really speak for Korea, since I'm not sure what the situation is like in other Asian countries. Here, though, the Internet is huge. Just like there are English schools, there are now tons of web design schools, Internet programming schools, etc. I've seen some really incredibly designed Korean sites, and there are lots of resources and tutorials for programs like Photoshop in Korean. This is a whole area of information that is unavailable to those who do not speak Korean. (Internet translation services are a nice idea, but they are currently so bad as to be useless; they could possibly be used as dictionaries, but you need to be able to read the language to use a dictionary!)

So, in answer to Emps two questions above: I think Chinese/Korean/Japanese versions of tutorials would be a nice gesture, but a great majority (although not all) of Asians who would use these tutorials already have a sufficient grasp of English to glean the information that they need. It is my opinion that those who do not speak Asian languages are at a much greater disadvantage, not having access to materials in those languages. They may cover the same subjects, but they may also take different approaches to the same subjects, and having access to these materials would allow Western designers to broaden their horizons (second time I've used that phrase today ).

That being said, Schitzoboy does have a good point. As I mentioned above, non-English versions of Tutorials would be a nice gesture, and that gesture might even draw new people and ideas into the fold. Granted, even if a Korean designer is able to read English he may still use a Korean tutorial because it's more natural for him, but there are those out there who do not have a sufficient grasp of English to participate in an English-speaking community. As I mentioned above, there is almost an Internet boom in Korea, so the percentage of designers who do not speak English well is probably much higher than it is in a place like China.

My recommendations: translating tutorials would definitely not be a wasted effort, but I can't say how much return you would get from it--it would most likely vary from country to country. On the other hand, there is probably a lot of info that is currently inaccessible to non-Asian language speakers, and mining that information might bring a greater return. I know that may seem like a Western-oriented approach, but I really believe that non-Asian language speakers are at a greater disadvantage.

I would post some links, but most of my time these days is taken up doing research for my thesis... I would, however, be willing to lend a hand with basic Korean texts (the site that InI mentioned was in Japanese, actually, but I was able to glean enough info from it to tell him what he needed to know; or, more precisely, to tell him that what he needed to know wasn't there). I'm also open to questions about the situation in Korea.

(Perhaps I should just change my sig to "More information than you could ever possibly need" )





What does it mean?

Suho1004: Thanks: "More information than you could ever possibly need" or exactly what I was looking for - I was hoping you'd throw in your thoughts on this matter!!!

That is all very interesting a parallels (and expands) on things I was thinking of.

I had rached the conclusion that South Korea was riding high on the Internet wave as I had turned up more .co.kr sites than Japanese.

I think it would be very interesting to offer English-language translations of any really great Korean, Japanese, resources if they provided something new. The greatest advantage would lie in the information flowing in the direction of those of us who can't speak Chinese, Korean, etc.

Japanese (Korean, etc.) translations would be of value as they would tend to draw people in (lets be honest people's language skills vary widely so having enough English to surf around web sites and follow some tutorials might still not be enough to get the full value out of a tutorial esp. one heavy on text and complicated issues/metaphors/analogies - which is why we are translating things into German, French, etc. - I can read French tutorials but I feel I would get a better grasp if they offered an English version).

How easy it is for a korean speaker like yourself to understand other languages like Japanese or Chinese (I know you got the grasp of that Japanese page for InI but is that because you've got skills in Japanese)?

What would one need to do to have a page in, e.g. Korean? I presume it would need a different content-type declaration but anything else?

Thanks for that (drop in what you can only as your studies allow!!) - its very interesting and your input was very much appreciated. Lots to think about.

Anyone got any thoughts on this? - it is clearly about information going both ways and ways of making that work.

Emps

Yeah, the other thing to keep in mind is the difference between the programs (english -> other language). It may be possible to follow a tut in english, but the commands are very different at times, and not always in the same place...speaking from personal experience...

WS: That is a good point - we're aiming for screenshots from German, French, etc. versions of PS, Flash, etc. to make things as easy as possible to follow - at least with Western European versions the commands will be pretty similar with something like Korean I presume it must be another added level of complication (more room for things to go wrong!!).

Emps

Emps: You're right about language choice, of course. When given the choice, people will invariably choose the resource available in their native language. Offering foreign language tutorials would definitely help make the site more global--and more in tune with the way the Internet is moving these days.

As for Korean-speakers understanding Japanese and Chinese, it all depends on how well they know Chinese characters. I have studied some Japanese, so that definitely helps, and Japanese grammar is practically identical to Korean. It is very easy for Koreans to learn Japanese (compared to other languages), but that does not mean that all Koreans speak Japanese. On the contrary, I think the younger generations may be at an even greater disadvantage. In other words, you will get some Koreans who can read a Japanese page, some more who can get the gist, but the majority would probably not have the skills and/or make the effort.

Chinese is a different story. The grammar is completely different (more similar to English), so if you haven't studied Chinese grammar, the best you're going to be able to do is get a few words here and there, and maybe get the general idea, if you're lucky.

I think what you're asking, though, is are the languages similar enough for speakers of each to understand the other, and my answer to that would have to be no. It's not something you can count on, especially among designers, who probably haven't spent as much time studying Chinese characters.

As to what you would need for a Korean tutorial, well, you would obviously need to have this at the top:

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=EUC-KR">

Other than that, you would also need a Korean IME, and (as WebShaman pointed out) a Korean copy of the particular program. In my experience, though, the commands are usually in the same place in Korean programs, they're just in Korean. Unfortunately, I don't have a Korean copy of Photoshop.

I'm going to be pretty busy until the end of this month (no, I take that back--I'm going to be insanely busy; my life these days consists of my thesis and the Asylum, for when I start going insane ), but after that I'm hoping to have a little free time. I would not mind digging around for some nice Korean tutorials. Also, I should let you know that my specialty is Korean -> English translation, so I would probably be more help in translating Korean tuts to English. Maybe as things go on I can find someone who would like to work the other way.

Anyway, it's a great idea, and I hope we can make some progress on it over the summer!





What does it mean?

Suho1004; Thanks for that (again). I was wondering if it was sort of the situation with Romance languages where they can be at least somewhat mutually intelligible (I saw a documentary on an archaeological excavation in South Aermica where Spanish, Italian and French speaking members of the team just chatted in their respective languages and seemed to get along fine - although reading is a different matter).

I thought it might need a meta tag along those lines and I'll have to make sure there is a way to change that depending on the language (we'd need it for Greek or Russian translations too) - shouldn't be a problem now I think on it.

We'd have to discuss it over at the GN but I'd certainly be interested in both trying translations into Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc. (even if just as an experiment) and seeking out great resources which would be inaccessible to most of us here. I'll start the discussion and see what other people think (pop in when you've got time).

Oh I may be being a little dim but what is an IME?

OK thanks a lot that has helped clarify a few things in my mind and got me thinking on a few things.

Emps

Here are 2 china design web site www.21bob.com www.photoshopcn.com.cn
...
sorry ,i have no enough time to translate them to english...

Many chinese photoshop and maya tutorials are transtated from the english website.
Such as www.phong.com,www.ozones.com.

...

I think china still have a long way to go in this .

i love beatles

vanvanta: Thanks for those (the second one didn't seem to work). Do you mean that some of these sites already have tutorials by people like the Doc? Is this with or without permission/acknowledgement? It would be interesting to have translations but I think most people would like to approve its use.

Emps

Hmm... knowing what I know about intellectual property rights (or the lack thereof) in Asia, I would say its probably a safe bet that these translations aren't official (that is, they were done without permission). Of course, I can't be 100% sure about that. I'm sure Doc would know if he gave permission for something like this.

The idea of intellectual property rights is not a traditional one in the East, and it has not been considered "wrong" to copy other people's work. Some may call this a "cultural difference," but I think of Asia is going to participate in the international community they need to recognize this principle.

Anyway, I'm not accusing anybody of anything, I'm just telling you what the general attitude toward intellectual property rights is over here. Maybe vanvanta can contact these people for us and we can establish a relationship...





What does it mean?

Hmm...I don't have any 'asian' hair on my totem pole *fingers tomahawk*....any links? *snicker*