Topic awaiting preservation: Belief in Paranormal

Personally I do believe in the paranormal to some extent.
I am usually wary of jumping right to the ghost conclusion because of the frequent hoaxes that are pulled but I am not entirely shut out to the oppurtunity.And quite frankly that belief is the only thing that keeps me remotely interested in the world.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

I would just like to know what you guys think about the topic.

No real belief in the supernatural here. I've yet to see proper proof. Citing studies without proper controls doesn't cut it for me, nor does anecdotal evidence. I'm open to it but based on what I've read, learned and experienced, I really doubt anything supernatural exists. Call me super-agnostic on the issue.

Amerasu |

No beliefe in supernatural strictly here...no reason to do so...as to what keeps me interested in living... scientific theories, education, exploration, learning of history and cultures developments as well of developing my skills as humans (in languages, arts, education etc.)

why scientific theories?

because they are more likely to be true rather than to believe in thousands year old jewish folklores...ohh well no offence

...they can be wrong, but also very possible...the more you learn about subject the more you can speculate...
guess, debate....but its fun to play around with ideas of laws of universe...

we all know most of them exist...but we just guess/speculate how they work and what could be possibilities..

I believe in spirits, much like my people. I do tend to balance that, with my knowledge of science...I think that maybe spirits consist of energy...and because there hasn't been much scientific research in these areas, have pretty much gone "undetected"

Which is why it would be nice, if the Paranormal would be considered a real area of scientific investigation *sigh*

Oh well...humans. Heh.

(Edited by WebShaman on 04-13-2004 23:52)

I would love for paranormal to become a respected form of research especially since to me it seems like I have two of what you would call energy signatures inside my house even though my whole family thinks I'm nuts for it.

Not wishing to be a pedant but things like 'belief' and 'paranormal' are always tricky terms.

I know there are phenomena that currently lack a good explanation but that may or may not be paranormal or it might just indicate there are holes in our scientific understanding of things (but perhaps thats what the paranormal has always been). I don't need to believe this.

Equaly if someone asks you if you think there are UFOs I'd reply that I know there are flying objects that are currently unidentified and usually at this point the person asking the question has had the answer they were looking for an they can wander of happy thinking "ahhhhhh another true beliver" or "credulous fool". They miss the next bit where I say but that needn't mean they are alien space ships (the ETH) or even ships or even anything beyond our current level of understanding - people's recollection of events is notoriously poor and unreliable at the best of times and when often mixed with delusions, known mental phenomena (frontal lobe epilepsy, night terros/sleep paralysis, etc.), extraordinary events, etc. it can prove a volatile source for many paranormal beliefs.

That isn't to say aliens aren't flying their saucers around abducting people as it is difficult to prove a negative (in the same way I can't disprove that Santa, God, the Tooth fairy, etc. aren't 'real').

Probably not the asnwer you were looking for though

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I think your answer is a fine and very perceptive one, I really wasn't looking for a specific answer just an answer. I pretty much agree with you I really don't believe in aliens but am not closed to the subject.

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No real belief in the supernatural here. I've yet to see proper proof.

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hey, Amerasu...but if we get the proof...it is not "supernatural" anymore, is it?

..if there is proof to whatever to "it's" existance(etc.) it's more likely becomes acknowledged and accepted eh?

(Edited by Ruski on 04-20-2004 14:21)

That's a really good question if paranormal reasearch were to become accepted would it's appeal be lost?

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Yep Ruski.

Paranormal stuff is researched as far as I know, it's just not done to proper scientific standards. Double blind testing, etc.

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That's a really good question if paranormal reasearch were to become accepted would it's appeal be lost?

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Maybe so... I think it depends what the research turns up. I find it somewhat interesting even though I don't actually believe in anything supernatural. It's good for fiction reading anyway

Amerasu |

The only supernatural things I most certainly believe in are those described by my faith in Christ. As far as ghosts and ufos are concerned, I am quite the agnostic Very much like agent Mulder, I *want* to believe in them. I have never had any personal experience with either thus far nor have I ever seen the proper proof as Amerasu puts it.


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See to me since I believe in Christ I must also believe in the supernatural to an extent. Of course i also think of Death as an actual person as well as a process.

I believe in paranormal activities. I never used to because scientists have proven that there is some kind of supernatural activity out there as much as they haven't proved anything. I also believe that if you are a person very "intune" with your surroundings that you could very well catch a glimpse of something here and there.

BiGCaC

That's pretty much what i believe since i have caught such glimpses several times around my own house and my cousin's

I too am very intuned and open into the spiritual world and do know by experiences the spiritual beings exist in this physical world. Don't know why or what exactly they are here for, but from my experiences they have something to do with energy or electricity of some sort. They could be trapped spirits or spirits sent to fulfill a certain mission. Who knows.

I definetly believe in things beyond our normal perception. And have seen some rather strange things in my time...
One strange thing, I wouldn't mind talking about...happened one time when I was standing outside of a bank waiting
for my wife to finish up a transaction, and I was smoking a cig leaning up against a wall looking at this tree. Suddenly I
got this strange feeling all over, like something was about to happen, and suddenly a tiny black speck appeared in front of
me, where the tree was. Then it grew and there was this huge black circle in front of me, but at its border I could still see the
sky and part of a road, and part of the parking lot. And suddenly everything go really quiet and I could see into the infinity
of nothingness. It only lasted for a couple seconds and then there was a sort of bang and everything went back to normal.
The people around me just kept on their daily business and no one even noticed it. I finished my cig and told my wife
about it when she came out. She didn't really care to much. Strange things happen to me all the time, I just normally
don't talk about them here...or anywhere else. Maybe this would be of interest to some of you ----> Click here

I have always wondered if there was some sort of explanation for this, but I have never come up with any, when
it happened I just had the feeling that I was seeing infinity, and the vast emptiness of everything. It was cool.


< Ozone Quotes >

GN, did you consider the possibility there was some physical abnormality occurring in your perception? Perhaps you suffered a very minor stroke or had some sort of floater in your eye fluid?


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GN: I'd go and get my eyes checked asap if I were you - it sounds like classic macular degeneration which can lead to all sorts of weird visual hallucinations and eventually blindness. If caught early you should be fine.

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Emps

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GN, I find that link a lot of fun. Do you ever listen to Coast to Coast with George Noory? Sometimes I listen late at night and when he gets on the ghost topics, I tend to get a bit freaked out all alone upstairs. I keep thinking I'm going to turn around and see someone standing there and have to go change my pants

Has anyone here seen a ghost? I think I remember Suho mentioning a story a while back when he was visiting a hotel that was haunted and he said he saw a little girl in the hallway that matched the ghost's description.


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I doubt a floater in my eye would slowly grow and also effect my hearing, making the sounds of cars and the birds and everything disapear, then re-appear with a bang and leaving me with a strange feeling inside. As far as that eye disorder, Emps...I guess it could be that and I should probably get it checked it, though this happened about 3 years. I will definity look into it. [edit]And by the way, the circle did not move, when I looked around...[/edit]

And ghosts, never saw one...but when I went to college I lived in this dorm that was supposedly haunted by this girl, and it just so happened that my roommate and I lived in the same room where she supposedly stayed. I think I've mentioned this before...but anyway. One time my roommate was out of town and this friend was staying over in his bed. After we had gone to sleep, a few hours later or so, the radio suddenly came on full blast...It scared the shit out of both of us. Then later that same night, after we had gotten back to bed, the door suddenly came flying open and smashed into the closet behind it, making a loud noise that also scared the shit out of us. Needless to say, we didn't get back to bed that night.

Also, my Dad lives in this really old house, and one time I was sleeping in the spare bedroom and I felt this presence standing over me, but when I looked there was nothing there, but I felt the presence of what I percieved to be a younge female. I also always notice my little sister, who is only 3, waving at apparently no one, and smiling at some sort of un-perceptible being...or maybe just at nothing.

And I used to listen to listen to Art Bell, but since having a kid and having to be at work at 6:30am, I am not really up that late at night. I guess George Noory replaced him?


< Ozone Quotes >

(Edited by Gilbert Nolander on 05-07-2004 16:02)

quote:

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Gilbert Nolander said:

I doubt a floater in my eye would slowly grow and also effect my hearing, making the sounds of cars and the birds and everything disapear, then re-appear with a bang and leaving me with a strange feeling inside. As far as that eye disorder, Emps...I guess it could be that and I should probably get it checked it, though this happened about 3 years. I will definity look into it. [edit]And by the way, the circle did not move, when I looked around...[/edit]

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Our perceptions are strange things and macular degeneration does seem to come with a whole host of weird hallucinations. I doubt it is (esp. after reading the edit) but it is something I'd check out as soon as was physically possible.

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Emps

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Bugimus, I have seen what I believe to be a specter.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

I would be very interested to hear the details, Sangreal.


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I also once saw a ghost. I travel quite a bit, and I was staying at the Crockett Hotel in San Antonio (1992). I have never before, or since, seen anything like it, but during my stay there I saw her twice. A woman, dark skinned, wearing a white gown, probably nightwear. High collar, long sleeves, gathered waist. Her hair was up. It actually wasn't scary at all . . . she just seemed to belong there. And no, substance abuse was not involved! Now I'm a believer.

Dragonlady

But how did you determine she was a spectre? More details please


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Totally visually. Sorry, no proof. Both times I was awakened from sleep, I can't tell you why. I saw the exact same "person" in different locations in the room, several nights apart. At first, I even spoke to her, since through half-closed eyes, I thought she might be my co-worker whom I was sharing the room with (I asked her if she was having trouble sleeping!); but when I got no response I opened my eyes. I can't really describe her face very well, since it was dark and she was dark-skinned . I'd guess her to be about 30, maybe a little older, and relative attractive in a plain sort of way. I only watched her "leave" once. She just walked (I'm assuming that . . .I couldn't see her feet, since the other bed was in the way} across the room and . . . faded. The second time she was very close to me and appeared to be observing me curiously, but I was really tired, and after a few seconds I just rolled over and went back to sleep. Like I said, I wasn't frightened, and I could feel that she was not a malevolent spirit. Now I wish I had attempted to talk to her, since I have no doubt that she was aware of my presence, not just "there," if you know what I mean. I doubt she would have spoken, tho. I should explain ? without a doubt I AM eccentric, but still totally rational!

Dragonlady

I think I would have come unglued if I saw a stranger in my room like that at night. Yikes


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It sounds more like a waking dream - we had a long discussion on the hag/night terrors a while ago and it is interesting to hear more benign experiences.

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Emps

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Always the sceptic Emps. : )

GN: Sceptical about what?

I'm not sceptical about whether ghosts exist or not - I'm open to the idea (esp. as one has been seen in this house) I just don't think that is one.

Its fascinatating nonetheless.

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[aside]Sangreal, have you read the writings of Michael Baigent?[/aside]

Paranormal research has been conducted for years within the rigors of the scientific method. The problem with this has been that, with the methods currently available, the outcomes of all experiments have never been better than chance. Honestly controlled and documented experiments have neither proven nor disproven the existence of paranormal activity to date. Duke University here in NC pioneered scientific research in the paranormal in the late 60's and early 70's and continues to research the paranormal today, albeit on a slightly quieter basis than in the beginning of the department. Duke is well known for their contributions to the collective knowledge base of scientific theory.

You know, my husband and I enjoy hanging out on the front porch watching wildlife... frequently, he will point something out to me that I just do not see. Not because it's not there, but because I just can't see that far. A great deal that goes on in the world that appears supernatural or paranormal can be chalked up to natural activity when you observe it carefully enough. This is not to say that everything that occurs in the world has already been discovered and pinpointed, just that perhaps we're not observing closely enough... With the aforementioned "methods available", it'll be years, if not decades, before we know the truth.

As for my personal belief in ghosts, I had a weird epiphany one day about the nature of energy. I was thinking initially about sound waves, and how they bounce around in an enclosed space, and I was thinking about echos at the same time. It occurred to me that the possibility exists that what most people term "ghosts" or "spectres" is nothing more than a trapped echo of energy.

Here's my reasoning: In most haunting cases, the story leading up to the death of the individual in question involves some sort of traumatic event. An accidental death, a murder, something like that... Anyone who's experienced anything even remotely traumatic can attest to the amount of energy those sorts of events generate. Not just the physical adrenaline rush, but a great deal of mental and emotional energy is generated as well - Energy that can't necessarily be detected by normal means. Instead of the energy dissipating as it should, and often does in a normal or expected death, I think it gets trapped in the locale of the incident. I haven't figured out the means with which this would happen... mind you, this is all idle thoughts... I also haven't decided yet whether or not this could include an actual consciousness or not, but since most hauntings usually see the same sequence of events over and over again, rather than what seems to be an independent entity, the idea of an echo seems reasonable.

I would love to see more research into the energy of the human body and what happens to it at the moment of death. Unfortunately, a lot of experiements that could be conducted on this are not ethical... can't just be killing people to see what exactly happens when they die... Controlled experiments into this area are extremely limited. I believe that we do not yet possess the means to define what we currently refer to as "paranormal" or "supernatural", but I believe it exists, and that we will one day be able to pinpoint it as a thoroughly natural occurence...

(Pardon me if this post seems slightly erratic, I've been trying to type it for the last 2 hours... shouldn't be doing this during a payment deadline... tsk tsk...)

(Edited by bodhi23 on 05-13-2004 22:39)

Bodhi, I agree with that to an extent. Like you, I haven't spent a lot of time on the subject, but I do agree that what has been observed is an energy. But I think that it isn't just an echo . . . what if the part of us that is energy is the soul, and so that continues in all of us after death? Many of the spectors that people have observed have been glowing "clouds", streaks, etc., typical of what you would expect of energy. In my case it was as if it were a real woman, so maybe she had a different story. But the energy idea would also explain poltergeist phenomena, and the fact that some people claim to have seen a white vaporish cloud leave recently deceased people. If it is an intelligent entity rather than an echo, it would also explain such things as malevolent spirits. A friend of my sister's told her that when she was walking down a staircase in her home, something tripped her by grabbing her ankle. She swears by it. Whether nor not something grabbed her ankle, she only got a broken arm. Lucky.

It does seem as if so many spectors do have a history of traumatic or suicidal deaths, but possibly they weren't ready to depart this plane, so they hang around indefinitely until they either accept their situation or are somehow relieved of their concerns? By the way, I read somewhere that paranormal researchers who were investigating spirits in castles in Great Britain have ascertained that the general life expectancy of a ghost is 500 years. I hope someone reminds me not to hang around after I die!

Dragonlady

All very interesting...

I suppose I could be considered agnostic.

What I do believe is that beyond science's inability to either prove or disprove the reality of supernature, the issue will always be muddied by the efforts of those who desire to make some sort of gain from the ignorance of others.

Take religion, for instance...

White Hawk - well, of course!

These days everybody is out for what they can get out of it. Rare is the true philanthropist...

Dragonlady,

I spent four nites at the Crocket Hotel in San Antonio two weeks ago and heard of the Ghost but didn't see anything strange when I was there.

An old Mexican wives tale on visions of the supernatural is that if you see a ghost in white it means impending death of someone. This also refers to dreams of a person wearing white. Visions or dreams are usually of a woman in a white wedding dress. This is a widespread belief in the Hispanic culture.



I did want to go see the famous place where those children died in a bus accident in San Antonio where it involved a train. They say if you go there and stop your car on the tracks the children push you car over and the way you can tell is if you sprinkle baby powder on you car and you can see the hand prints of the children. I remember seeing this on some kind of mystery show on cable. And also many people and relatives I know have went there and say it is indeed true.

I've heard of that paranormal activity around that bus accident but I didn't know where it was. If I get back to San Antonio I will check it out! I also saw the special and it appeared to be true.

I'm not sure, but I think I was in room 256 at the Crockett, but don't hold me to that. I hadn't heard anything about the ghost before I went there. What did you hear? Did the one that you heard of fit the description of the one I saw? I would be curious to know. I tried to find something on the internet on it, but I couldn't. (The only one I found at the time wanted me to join a "Ghosts of San Antonio" organization.)

I also hadn't heard of the old wives' tale. Didn't have any deaths around that time , tho!

Dragonlady

Dragonlady,

Don't know for sure what the story is. I think it might be on the web. My husband wanted to stay there because he heard the place was haunted and he wanted to check out the ghost. He did not see anything erie either.

Dragonlady,
I believe it was you you had asked me if I read books by a certain author. The answer is no for this kind of subject I usually refer to a man named Konstantinos but if you would give me the name of the author you suggested I would be very interested in reading his books. Also I would very much like to 'exchange' experiances with you if you do not mind. we can either do so here or my e-mail is Fircrafter02@aol.com. If you e-mail me please mention in the subject that it is you from the asylum so I do not mistake the letter as spam and/or junk.

Sangreal,
I dropped you an e-mail, but it bounced back on me twice. I'll try again, but mine is MoonlitShadow@excite.com. Ditto on the subject line. Thanks!

Dragonlady

Bug

quote:

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Has anyone here seen a ghost? I think I remember Suho mentioning a story a while back when he was visiting a hotel that was haunted and he said he saw a little girl in the hallway that matched the ghost's description.

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I remember posting that I had seen an apparation in my first home in my small hallway of a boy of around 7 dressed in white with black hair. Was awakened by it calling in a loud voice during my sleep. When I awoke it was staring at me. Rubbed my eyes and looked at it again and he was still was standing there. And no, it was not an alien.
It looked as real as any person. He was not transparent or anything. He had a somber look on his face. I think he wanted to tell me something, but I was just too frightened and woke my husband to look but the boy disappeared. Till this day I wonder about what he wanted to let me know. As God as my witness, this is the honest truth. We currently have a spirit living in our home. It makes all kinds of noises, slaming doors, shaking keys, makes sounds of pans dropping on the floor, goes thru my closet hangers, turns off the TV & radio, and turns on the water faucets, just to name a few. It seems friendly. We are not afraid yet, but I think if it does make an appearance, I will start being afraid. So, I do believe in the supernatural because of this. Don't understand how it fits in with my spiritual beliefs, but feel there has to be a connection to God involved somehow, someway.

(Edited by jade on 06-08-2004 03:44)

I have seen an a shade or spectre as some would call it (somewhat differant from an apparition but a type of ghost) It ran down my hallway stair. My cousin saw a similiar one at her house.

Dragonlady,
I tried to e-mail you but it came back to me also it's probably my computer going screwy again. That ghost you saw at the hotel, was it wearing what could have been a white wedding dress?
Also I have posted one of my family's encounters on a seperate thread called Bugimus you asked for proof (or some such title) If you would like to read it. I do have others but that is one of the more recent.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Apparently, i was a haunted baby.

My father used to have to keep re-locking the window in my room as it was apt to open itself frequently.

I had a habit of constantly kicking off my blanket while i slept, but he would often find me freshly tucked-in. If I was an amazing baby who tucked myself in, it was a something that i stopped doing when we moved.

What really made him stop and think was that he often found me awake and gurgling happily at something above my cot, or my attention following something around the room that he couldn't see. This wasn't just me being an odd baby, because it also stopped when we moved.

Objects around the house used to disappear all the time, only to turn up in the oddest places.

The dog never went near the top flight of stairs or my nursery.

Both my parents were watching TV one night when something made them start. Not a noise of any kind, but a feeling. They both rushed to the nursery with an irrational sense of urgency to discover (just in time) my younger brother blue in the face, choking on an earing that my mother had lost that day.

There were many more little events that could be explained away easily on their own...

...but collectively?

I don't know if I'm a believer or not, but some bloody weird things have happened in my life since then, that have left me with an odd sense of something beyond our current understanding - perhaps even beyond the ideas of the most devoted believers.

But I don't worry overly-much - I've got a whole life to live before I find out one way or the other...

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-09-2004 23:34)

Sangreal - it was me that asked you about having ever read anything by Michael Baigent. He's a British author. He wrote 2 books that I really enjoyed: Holy Grail Holy Blood (which is the one I think you should read if you haven't) and The Temple and the Lodge (about the Knights Templar and Freemasonry). That was the first place I read the word "sangreal".

The second place was in The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown, but he used Baigent as a reference.

Bodhi23,
I haven't read those books but will put them on my to read list along with the Davinci Code. This isn't the first tim something like this has happened. The other circumstance is also like White Hawk's experiance as a baby I was incredibly frightened of light if it was night out. No bullshit, if there was any kind of light in the room I wouldn't do anything but scream. For it seemed to me that there was the profile of the Grim Reaper was on the wall watching over me with some sort of what could only be called grim interest. Later on in life when I was about 15 I would use Azriel as my call name (much similiar as Sangreal wich I use as a call name now). The only reason I came up with the name Azriel is it kept popping up in my name and whenever I was in my room I would relax with a pen on paper and write what ever my hand wrote. My hand would write that name. Mind you I keep my room as dark as I can at all times. So one day I did some research and it turns out that Azriel is the name of the Messenger of Death (or Angel of Death im not sure) for some religion that i forget the name to.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Sangreal - put the Baigent books on your list ahead of DaVinci Code, you will get much more out of the DaVinci Code if you've read the history behind the theories first... "Sangreal" means "Royal Blood" (Sang Real).

That bit about Azriel is interesting, here's reasonable history of the Archangel Azrael which actually contains some good info. He is the angel of death - but not necessarily a bad guy.

In metaphysics and kabbalstic teachings, the representation of "death" means more of a dramatic change than an actual death. Could be that there were many changes and upheavals in your life during that time? If death were actually stalking you, I wouldn't think you'd still be here.

In any case, "Sangreal" has much nicer overtones than "Azriel", just because of the associations...
Cheers!

I remember my sister calling me at work one mid afternoon many years ago. She was so spooked. She was at my fathers house watching her children playing in the yard. She ran inside to get something when she heard movement in the kitchen. Knowing no one was in there, she called out and no one answered. She heard pages flipping as if someone was skimming thur a book. When she looked to see where it was coming from, she saw a tall person dressed in a brown shroud looking thru a book flipping thur the pages with his finger but the pages were moving very fast as if the wind or fan was blowing them. She could not see its face. She called me right after it occured and I remember the fear in her voice as if it were only yesterday. I thought it could be the messenger of death. Yet, no deaths occured at the time. Growing up in my fathers house, some of us would see black shadows every now and then against the wall or floating up the stairway. I never saw anything though.

Bodhi- Thank you for the knowledge I was not aware that Sangreal meant Royal Blood and know laugh at my self because I am the descendant of an old german Baron.(not exactly royalty but close). Although I already knew the part about death I thank you for that also. I think I knew that The whole Grim Reaper was just a shadow and that is why I didn't want light. (but who can guess a baby's logic)

Jade-I would definitely classify that apparition as a spectre since it actually manifested it self in a form that could be seen with good detail. Although it could be a poltergeist (though it is unlikely since they rarely manifest themselves in any form) like my cousins once had. As far as the shade on the stairs it is getting sort of strange that is my cousins also saw a shade similiar to the one I had on my stairs on their stairs. I would like to ask you to at least try and describe yours for me as these three shades might be a single nomadic shade.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Sangral.

Well, I don't know for sure about what kinda shade your looking for.
The shadows were very real looking to my sisters. I guess if you want a better description, it would be like the black shadows in the movie Ghost. Except for the shroud looking person, it looked very real.

I do believe upon death, for some, angels do come to one who is dying. Many persons I know that have died or had a person dying that they know, described beings in the room with them. My friend's uncle who died of cancer told me that as his uncle was passing into death, the uncle described the room was full of beings that looked like they were celebrating and he was so happy and asked my friend if he saw the beings too, who looked like real people. A 12 year old girl in my niece's class died of cancer this year also and would tell my niece that a nice man would periodically come hold her hand and she believed it was Jesus to give her comfort.

Another friend that I know told me when he knew he was near death when he was seriously sick, he felt hands started pulling him down and some other hands were like in a tug of war trying to pull him up. It went on back and forth until finally there was a greater force that just pulled him up away from the cluthes of both hands and he knew it was the force of God. " Like God was saying " leave him alone, hes mine" He felt that it was death pulling him down and God gave him another chance at life. This near death experience changed his life.

For some it seems the death experience is not so good, but for others, its beautiful. As I am getting older, I am thinking about death more often. I want to come to terms with the reality of death. Because its a natural process of life and shouldn't be feared. I really sincerely want to know whats on the other side and look forward to seeing the God almighty in his beautific vision. So I want to try to make friends with death, if that makes any sense.

(Edited by jade on 06-26-2004 01:12)

Sangreal ? like Jade said, your name means Royal Blood (Sang Real). It also means Holy Grail (San Greal). Just an aside . . .

I'm a little late on this posting, but yes, the ghost I saw could have been wearing a wedding dress. That would explain two things that kind of bothered me ? that she had her hair up, and that her gown had a high collar ? both a little unusual when preparing for bed. I guess I didn't think of a wedding dress because the skirt part was softly flowing, it didn't have hoops or undergarments that would make it full. Not being up to date on formalwear, I guess I just thought that old wedding dresses usually had full skirts.

We had a poltergeist for awhile, also . . . but apparently it left. We went through about a six-year period of lights and appliances going on and off that sometimes weren't even plugged in, and things not being where we left them (one time, when we were gone, all my clothing was taken out of my closet and trailed around the whole house ? even up the stairs!) Once my son's weights were piled behind his bedroom door so that when he tried to open it they spilled across the room like stacked dominoes. I could go on .. . . but I guess it left, since absolutely nothing has happened since. We never actually saw it, tho. Funny, but I actually called an appliance repair person at the time, because I thought there was something wrong with either the appliances or the wiring. The TV went on while he was standing there. He just shook his head and asked me if I had a prepubescent daughter! I did, she was ten at the time. Maybe she just outgrew him and he went on to younger girls.

Re death: I have been at the bedsides of several people when they died, and none of them spoke about seeing anything; but my uncle, when he took his last breath, smiled. He looked beautiful,
relaxed, carefree, smiling. Funny.

Dragonlady

Jade- That is sort of what I was looking for. Yes that is exactly who the shade appeared on both my cousin's stairs and my stairs sort of like a shadow without a physical body to cast it. I'm glad of that there is no body since I would not want to meet the person casting the shadow in our case. The shape of it was niether destinctly male or female. It was really spindly and had sort of a hump of sorts as it ran it may have just been the way it was running though. It didn't truly have hands in the sense that we think of hands. More like fingers that met at the wrist and look alot like kitchen knives only elongated to the pointed of ridiculess. I was at my grandfather's bedside and he described the ArchAngel Michael beckoning to him almost like a friend would nudge you along. (Which is kinda freaky because about six months after his death I looked in a mirror and had a 'vision' (if you can call it that) of the ArchAngel Michael stabbing him through the heart. (Don't ask me how I know it was the Archangel Michael the name just kinda popped in my head at the time). To me making friends with death makes perfect sense. See to me Death is both a process and a person. In my oppinion you cannot cheat Death. You can have a near-death experiance, you can very nearly die and be revived through cpr or other life saving techniques but you CANNOT CHEAT DEATH. If you are on his list you die at the time listed. If you aren't on his grim shopping list yet then your soul is not harvested. Simple as that. You are never too young to die or too old to live.Those who die early in their lives were at the top of the list so that is when they were taken. Those who die late in their lives were near the bottom of that particular list. To modify a Lord of the Rings qoute: "Death is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he needs to." I believe that he can appear as anything he feels nesscisary to comfort the one who he is taking. If that's nice old man or a bunch of party goers than that is exactly how he appears if he needs to appear at all. To me Death is just one more unexplainable being that we have no name for. So we name him after the process which he brings. This proposes a question: Which came first the Grim Reaper or death?


Dragonlady- I asked you about the dress because it confirms that I did see a special on the lady on t.v. Unfortunately it was a while back and I cannot remember the story behind her. Poltergeist when translated out of german actually means noisy ghost. These ghosts, contrary to what the movie would have you think, rarely mean harm. They just like to play pranks and make noise like playing with kitchen appliances and televisions. For some reason unknown this particular type of ghost does tend to be nomadic and they do have a fascination with prepubescent children, usually. I don't know why exactly but I do have a theory, I think that most poltergeists are what result when children who led happy lives cannot or don't want to passover for some reason.This may be why most have a fascination with prepubescent children, and why they play pranks and when they become somewhat violent it is merely the poltergeist having a temper tantrum.This can also apply to adults who are kids at heart. As happened in your case poltergeists will usually play around your house and make noises, play pranks,bang on pots and pans that sort of stuff and leave. Nothing Harmful usually happens, although my cousins had one that did have some violent tendencies. It threw a metal plate at her brother Adam during dinner time and broke their digital camera by sending hurtling across the basement into the wall. My uncle was pissed and he doesn't believe in the paranormal so that naturally spelled trouble for my cousins. Thankfully nobody was hurt and it left. (We think). Oh well just speculation.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

I didn't realize poltergeists were nomadic, so I was surprised when it left. It was pretty interesting. We got so used to lights and appliances going on and off that there was never even any discussion about it, except for a few quite creative pranks. And thanks for the info about the lady. I've always been curious about her . . .

Dragonlady

Dragonlady- what were some of the creative pranks? I am interested to see what some of the things that it did. By the way, I am not 100% postiive that they are all nomadic that is just my experiance.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

I don't believe in god, not ghosts, werewolfs, vampires, nessie, bigfoot, super-powers, magic, spontanious combustion, ki, or anything of the sort.

I don't care to either. I'm happy with what I believe in: science and logic.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

Okay I can respect that but I do have one question for you, In your oppinion, is it possible that ghosts do exist we just don't have the correct technology yet? I don't really beilieve in werewolfs,vampires,nessie, or bigfoot either. But I am open to the possibility.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Dragonlady, I watched a movie called Ghost Stories Vol. 1 and it did a story that reminded me of your lady in white sighting. Where you at the Aurunteer Mansion (not sure how to spell it) or the George and Dragon Inn?? Those are both places were a lady in white have been spotted. Also if you would like to go to a hotel that may be able to provide you with another sighting try the Leger Motel or Hotel or inn im not sure what it was called. Supposedly the original founder still haunts room number 7.

Why is the idea of "supernatural" elude you so tntcheats? If you break the word down into it's roots, it would mean that it is something "above" nature. ESP is "supernatural", but I am increasingly finding people with real ESP, or a form of it including me. Mine is more like Deja Voo. I had an experience like that today. They are nothing special, but it is supernatural. I cannot explain how I would know what it was I would click on a computer screen, or what someone would say next, but it happens. One friend of mine had a dream that a building across the street from his mother's work was burning down, and sure enough, after the last dream it happened. Just to get back on subject, there are supernatural things happening. The only reason it isn't in science is because we can't explain it yet. There is a God or, even though I don't want to say it I will say it to make some people happy, gods, apparitions, werewolfs, vampires, maybe not nessie and big foot, super powers, magic, spontaneous combustion, don't know about "ki", and many other things of that sort. They have been proven to be there, or be eluded to be there, but or science is about a little ways off to controlling the human brain, or figuring out what is happening there. My belief is that they are there.

quote:

---

Sangreal said:

In my oppinion you cannot cheat Death. You can have a near-death experiance, you
can very nearly die and be revived through cpr or other life saving techniques
but you CANNOT CHEAT DEATH.

---

Well, half and half. To me death is a process or a transition time due to my faith. I believe, not to go against you, just presenting the other side of the argument, that death can be cheated. We as a people are surviving things that were unheard of 100, 50, 20, even 10 years ago. We are dying less and living more. The cool thing about my faith is that I have total trust in God, and in that case, I will not die until I am no longer needed. That means that in the scheme of things I have immunity. Like the movie Big Fish. I don't know when I will pass, but my Creator does, and that is good enough for me.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

quote:

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Okay I can respect that but I do have one question for you, In your oppinion, is it possible that ghosts do exist we just don't have the correct technology yet?

---

Read a book called Timeline, gives you an idea of a theory that could be applied to ghosts. I suppose it could also be used to explain existence, and ESP.

quote:

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Why is the idea of "supernatural" elude you so tntcheats?

---

God I have no doubt is fictional or just doesn't want us worshipping it, but I suppose I sort of believe that these other things have the CHANCE of existence.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

Okay. I will accept that for now. I still have issues about your view of God and why you are so angry at Him, but I will accept that if you want to change, that is your decision, and I respect that. As for the other things, a "CHANCE" was all I was looking for.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

quote:

---

Okay. I will accept that for now. I still have issues about your view of God and why you are so angry at Him, but I will accept that if you want to change, that is your decision, and I respect that. As for the other things, a "CHANCE" was all I was looking for.

---

Not angry at all
Just am using a bit of what I consider to be logic:
God doesn't exist.
If he did then he'd tell us, unless he didn't want to be worshipped.
If he wanted to be worshipped and didn't tell us that wouldn't make sense.
It also doesn't make sense for them to be a 'good' god and send you to hell for not believe in them when they don't say they exist.

I don't have any reason to be mad at any god. I have a good life with good friends, and wouldn't want it to be playing out any other way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

I don't know whether I believe or not, to be honest. too little to go on, but a little is enough to intrigue...

Either way, I would love to stay in a haunted place. The more intense the haunting the better - I would just love to try it, and see for myself.

Equally, I would have few qualms about moving into a haunted house - despite the minor concern that something environmental might be hazardous (and perhaps at blame for symtoms of the haunting, maybe).

The problem with the question whether god(s) exists or not is (as i see it) this:
While Tnt is correct in saying that it would be logical that if someone or something wanted to be worshiped than it would confirm it's existance in some way, shape of form. But on the other hand the whole point or backbone of any religion or god is faith. If a god(s) confirms it's existence to mortals than there is no longer a need for faith. With no backbone religion goes bye-bye. The other thing is that it is said that god(s) made it's (their) follower(s) in it's (their) own image. HUMANS ARE NOT LOGICAL therefore the god(s) would not be logical. Anyways since this is a thread about supernatural beings other than god(s)
-Tnt i believe that it is entirely possible that ghosts and other things like them can exists on other electrical and infrared frequencies this may explain why the speakers on my computer talk when there should be no audio output.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Ok, tnt. While I don't know what God is thinking, and I can't say that I have all the answers, I do have a few. I'll take these one at a time.

quote:

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tntcheats said:

God doesn't exist.If he did then he'd tell us, unless he didn't want to be
worshipped.

---

First off, He did tell us. Through many episodes. He told Abraham personally. He told the Israelite nation through Moses. He told us through many different priests, kings, peasents, prophets, and many others. He finally told us of our sins and how to be cleansed with Jesus. Then, He told us that we are all invited (because we didn't get the subtle hints) through Paul. Also, God the trinity reveals Himself many times in many different ways to many people. He has done so in my life as well.

ok, next

quote:

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tntcheats said:

It also doesn't make sense for them to be a 'good' god and send you to hell for
not believe in them when they don't say they exist.

---

Well, that doesn't make too much sense does it? But, the thing is that we can't go up to heaven if we sinned. God wants you and me and everyone to go live with Him up in heaven, but He can't be around sin. That isn't possible. That is why, we need redemption. That is why we need Jesus to wipe our sins away. That is why God loved us so much that He gave His only son for us to live.

It is like this story once told to me:

You know that you, tnt, have sinned (in a Christian aspect). I can say with almost certainty that you have most likely coveted something, lusted after something, or been violent at something before in your life. Well, let's say that there is a policy just issued by the President that if you do evil, you shall be punished with one year per evil act. And I can't be a judge, but just going on my understanding of an average of sin like that in the world today, you might be in prison for a long time. But you are given a bail of 100,000 dollars. But, all you have is a ten. Then, as the guards come to take you away, a complete stranger who loves you comes into the court room and hands the judge a 100,000 dollar check!

Do you get what I am saying?

(And I am so sorry Sangreal. I just didn't want to see another unanswered question.)

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

no need for apologies Gideon. If I came off as biting i didn't mean to. It is just that there are at least two other threads that have the debate and would like to leave this one to the lesser paranormal beings. And just to play the Devil's Advocate, as i so love to do, answer me this question then, in stopping a man (in this case tnt) from recieving his punishment, is he not therefore doing an evil deed himself. For if this stranger were to go about bailing out everybody from their evil act than nobody would care about doing the wrong thing because they know they can get out of it in just the nic-of-time.
anyways
TNT- another point for the differant electrical wave-length theory is that that explains why there is no good proof of a ghosts existence.. their electrical output screws up the equipment. As for yetis, and sasquatch and other things like that like zombies and vampires i agree that is all fanciful, rubbish and wishful thinking. I also have a question for you. What proof do you have that they do not exist? Other than the fact that you cannot weigh, sort, photograph, alphabetize, or measure a ghost.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

I'm not sure I could enjoy heaven. If redemption means existing for an eternity in a state of devoutly virtuous religious worship, never to indulge, no matter how briefly, even the slightest thought that might be considered sin...

*shudders with horror*

It just doesn't bear thinking about.

(Edited by White Hawk on 07-31-2004 13:42)

First off, I am not saying that you have to go to Heaven WH. That is just one choice. I shudder about the other. Total separation from God for all eternity. That is the one thing I am afraid of. So many people take for granted how much we rely on God today, and don't even realize it. I am afraid for those that receive torment forever. The thing is, that in that place of torment, there is sin runnig rampant. And, wouldn't your rather feel completely clean than feel dirty, and have a few seconds of pleasure? I know I would. All sin that is pointed out in the bible is pleasureable for a season, and after that... It isn't as pleasureable.

Ok Sangreal, I will answer you on a different thread so that this one can go on being about the "lesser" supernatural.

Do not rebuke a moker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

I'm a member of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. I think that answers your question.

Your may be a part of that web site's little club but I still don't see why ghosts cannot exist. Even after reading through the site. Don't get me wrong i do believe that a good amount of what is shown on television is sensationalism but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Psychics definantly do NOT exist and niether do vampires or werewolves. The people who go around calling themselves such are just plain wacked out.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Well, I may not be a psycic, but I do have Deja Vu kind of occurences. Sometimes I may dream something up that looks real, and several weeks later it will happen. I will be able to finish some people's sentanences. It is very wierd.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

quote:

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First off, He did tell us. Through many episodes. He told Abraham personally. He told the Israelite nation through Moses. He told us through many different priests, kings, peasents, prophets, and many others. He finally told us of our sins and how to be cleansed with Jesus. Then, He told us that we are all invited (because we didn't get the subtle hints) through Paul. Also, God the trinity reveals Himself many times in many different ways to many people. He has done so in my life as well.

---

I didn't say why didn't different priests kings peasents prophets and Paul tell us that god exists. I said why didn't GOD say he exists. To US not THEM.
He hasn't revealed himself to ME, how did he to you? Did you get in a car crash and survive? That doesn't mean anything.

quote:

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What proof do you have that they do not exist?

---

The fact that they haven't been shown to us, which they would have been with all the deforestry and such occurring. And if they've not been seen by people then how are there stories about them? There would have, by now, been a hunter able to shoot one, someone who was mauled by one, something like that.
As for ghosts: I've never seen them or had any sort of thing happen in my life that could have been caused by them, and I've been in several places where ghosts are rumored to be. I believe that they have a chance of existing, but it's too thin for me to be able to be considered a reality.

quote:

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So many people take for granted how much we rely on God today, and don't even realize it.

---

Who relies on God and how?

If God wanted us all to go to heaven and he made us why wouldn't have he made us unable to sin? Or atleast dead-set against it in our instincts?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

TnT, I would really appriciate it if you would not keep this discussion going on this thread. Sangreal would like it to be about the "lesser" supernatural. That is why I created the other thread.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Well, I know for a fact that there are a couple of brothers with a disease that are werewolfs. I think they might be in guiness or ripley's or both I can't remember. The other thin is that there are people that believe that they are vampires, werewolves, etc. I watched a program on the History channel about a clan of vampires that have hosts they drink from. There was also a "werewolf" who claimed to change every full moon. I doubt if these are the "real" vampires and werewolfs, but if someone goes around drinking someone else's blood, that's enough for me to call it vampirism. But as for Nessy and Bigfoot, there is about as much chance as them being alive and running around as dinosaurs. But, no one knows everything...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon, You know that I am big on arguing semantics so I shall not apologize for doing so, but by an unconventional dictionary difinition the word Vampirism can actually be put onto anything that stalks it's prey. Also, to coin a phrase "Beware the man who tells you how honest he is." Just because somebody tells a television interviewer they drink blood and stay in the dark all the time and always wear black doesn't mean they a vampires they are just adults playing pretend. I wear black, like the dark, and when i bleed drink my own blood does that mean I am a vampire? Also, a little more semantics here, a vampire is somebody who LIVES off blood and blood alone. If these mortal HUMANS were to live entirely off blood they would die of malnutrition, and starvation in short order. The body would require differant internal make-up to process blood in the large amount that would be required for them not to become seriously emaciated.(I watched a similiar show that was on public television and one of the delusionals was very very fat). They would also die because the body would not have the organs that would be able to extract the nessacary nutrients from the blood. As far as the werewolves I am entirely sure that they are just embarassed about their excess hair. There was a boy on Ripley's believe it or not that was extremely hairy and did have a medical condition but he nor his uncle (or father/other male family member) who had the same condition profess to be a werewolf. The older relation did however act in a cirus or something under a name including the word werewolf maybe you didn't hear things right, you should have your ears check (this coming from someone who is partially deaf!) {Look whose talking!} [Does the Pen Pen]

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

I looked up vampirism just before I posted, so I knew what I was getting into. Yes, in the dictionary, that is correct. The only thing, though, is that to me (and many other people) a vampire is a blood sucker (except lawyers, they are excluded blood suckers [jk]). That is why I think that they are vamps. Even if they don't turn into bats, live in coffins, or burn in sunlight, neither do vampire bats. That is why I consider them "real" vampires, because their take on it is a little more realistic. As for werewolves, yes, that is the family I was talking about. They did jokingly refer to themselves as werewolves, eventhough it was just an abnormality. And, that abnormality is believed to be the origin of the werewolf myth. Just as the horseman of the oriental for centaurs and the sea cows (I forget their name) for mermaids. It was just cooked up by someone way back when. The whole basis for my argument was that, yes, there are plausible explainations for these "myths" but there are parts in the African and South American jungles no man has even set foot on yet. We just don't really know...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

And I'll say "HAH! I WAS RIGHT!" when you're proven to be wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dawn is nature's way of telling you to stop using that stupid quote."
- me.

If the paranormal did exist, then it'd be normal. I can't help thinking that the definition defeats itself...

that could be argued but also if they exist than it is likely that they live on a differant plane, or frequency or have some other level of existence therefore making them paranormal.

PEN PEN!!! BAWAGAHWAGAHWAGAH!

quote:

---

Sangreal said:

Your may be a part of that web site's little club but I still don't see why ghosts cannot exist. Even after reading through the site. Don't get me wrong i do believe that a good amount of what is
shown on television is sensationalism but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Psychics definantly do NOT exist and niether do vampires or werewolves. The people who go around calling themselves such are just plain wacked out.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

---

1. CSICOP isn't a Web site. The map is not the territory. It isn't "little" nor is it a "club."

2. What evidence gathered through scientific means do you possess to state with reasonably certainty that "ghosts exist" and "psychics, vampires, and werewolves do not exist?" You made the claim so now it's your responsibility to prove you're not a liar through scientific inquiry. Otherwise, you're just as credible as those "wacked out" sensationalists.

Laws of Nature: A Skeptic's Guide
Basic Differences Between a Pre-Scientific Orientation and a Scientific Orientation
Bridging the Chasm between Two Cultures by Karla McLaren



(Edited by metahuman on 08-09-2004 21:27)

look i don't have any scientific evidence that can hold up in a court of law or laboratory, all I am saying is that in my OPPINION ghosts do exist at some level. I do not think that Pyschics exist because I do not trust humans. ANYBODY can say ANYTHING. I say werewolves and vampires do because everytime somebody claims to be one it is for some really stupid reason or it is a hoax. I only believe that ghosts of some sort exist because of occurences that I can not find any other explanation for if somebody were to come to me and give me logical scientific explanations for those events I would accept those and move on. If you believe that they do not exist that is no reason to attack me. I will except that the CSICOP is not a website nor a club I was merely using those words to describe it as i couldn't think of any others. I never have thought that I am truly a credible source because i am human and all humans have some flaw at some degree. merely believe because of occurences and otherwise i find the world incredibly, dumb, dull, and otherwise a waste of time.

PEN PEN!!! BAWAGAHWAGAHWAGAH!

Also,
Somebody's oppinions and beliefs don't make them a liar, if i were to say that it is a proven scientific fact that ghosts and other paranormal phenomenon exist then i would be lying. But I DIDN"T. And if i were you i would be careful on who you call a liar, you are to and if you want to go into semantics everybody is. The only reason i am offended by you calling me a liar and am 'up in arms about it' is that i am an Eagle Scout and also, as Gideon will collaberate this, I have gotten in more fights and scuffles than almost anybody that i know from off the internet because i told people the truth. So please tell me how am I a liar and you not?
While we are attacking people for their beliefs why don't i post a few more so you can ridicule me for those too:
*I believe in the father almighty and his only begotten son Jesus Christ who suffering under Pontius Pilot died for my sins, was crucified, died, and after three days rose again and ascended into heaven.

*I believe that if in WWII Hitler had not betrayed Stalin and got Russia to fight on his side that we would have lost.

*I believe that George Bush is a trigger happy, moronic, religious fanatic who is unfit for office.

*I believe that John Kerry is a lying bastard who doesn't deserve the war metals he got and is trying to decive the american public and is also unfit for office.

*I believe that it would be funny to see Nader come from behind and win this or any election due to the fact that both major party candidates are unfit for office.

*I believe that TRUE COMMUNISM was a good idea but can never and will never work.

*I believe what John Kerry's fellow vietnam bunkmates said on how Kerry doctored his war photos and is lying about his war actions.

*I believe that if what Kerry did truly doctor his photos and lied about his war actions than he should be punished for it severely.

*I believe that the theory that God created everything on earth and the Theory of Evolution can be combined into one single theory, cohesively.

*I believe that you have to take the bible literally but be able to know which stories are true and which are metaphors.
And I believe that if you had lived through some the experiances that I have you to would be open to believing that there is a possiblity that ghosts do exist at some level.
But what would i know none of that appears in a science book.

PEN PEN!!! BAWAGAHWAGAHWAGAH!

I would like to apologize for the outburst and poor conduct in which I have controlled myself in my previous two statments I had been having a bad day already and when I accessed Ozone and saw that i was being called a liar and sensationalist I blew my top. As Gideon will confirm being called a these two things and insults against my grandfather are the only things that truly anger me.

PEN PEN!!! BAWAGAHWAGAHWAGAH!