From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 04-15-2004 11:51
quote:I hate the idea of Mad Scis with Finglongers:
I always thought finglongers should belong
to one person only, the Doc, for some of the current finglonfers
happened to lack wisdom like we all do on occasions,
and I "feel" banning features and such are part of the new Asylum.
Which I believe, correct me if I am wrong, to be something the Doc didn't want at all:
I was quite disappointed at WK being banned, or some of the Zigotry,
this finglongers thing makes me feel like I was browsing somethingleet.
So, while being gratefull to those of you who created this new Asylum,
I really am scared at possible finglongers abuses, accidents, and other oddities.
I want to start off by saying I don't know who WK is. I wish I did, and I don't know about that banning...
I have had some inner turmoil with this as well. When "Adolf Hitler" was banned I was mildly upset. It might not be politically correct, and it might have only been used as a troll, and it might even be hateful, but, Doc has said that he hopes never to ban anyone. He didn't say he wouldn't, he said he would hope not to.
Kevin is not a diety, and I refuse to sit here and let the Doc Ozone worshippers preach inaction when evolution is occuring. Doc has delegated authority to other members, and has then left us to our own devices, and even if their wisdom is not that of Doc Ozone, is has been delegated by him. If you have a problem email Doc and ask him about it. If Kev had a problem with what was going on here I am pretty sure he would have interceded, or at least made a little post.
This place is Kevin's little experiement that has gotten pretty big. I am sure that he is sitting there reading the stuff that is going on here, and smiling, his experiment grew a life of its own, and doesn't need him to control it anymore, that is a pretty big achomplishment, much like raising a child. He might be a little sad that it has taken off on its own, and in some of its own directions, but he had to let it go to thrive, and that is why is happening now.
We are just in a time where we are coming to realize that we aren't being controlled, and figuring out what to do with our added responsibilities, but if we don't discuss them, then we won't know what the limits are.
This issue needs some further thought. I would like some opinions on it.
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-15-2004 12:19
a) Any MS can ban members.
b) there were a couple of members on the ban list before Mr Hitler. All of whom had been contacted by mail and had shown not to be open to reason. Indeed, I admit I did not contact Mr Hitler by mail - he didn't add one to his profile, and supporting genocide by name is just not appropriate to this place. He may come back with a new name any day.
c) You know what the finglongerer buys me? I can rebuild the caches in the admin panel, and edit the front page. That's about it. Oh, and I can install new grail modules, if they happen to exist. Now, tell me, InI, why you should be bothered with any of these powers, or what other powers you seem to be missing. Not to mention that ->DocOzone is of a higher rank.
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-15-2004 12:26
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-15-2004 13:18
now my browser ate my reply. Merde. (hit ctrl-w)...
a)
quote:I don't want that responsibility.
- you may resign at any time. just visit your cell and demote yourself.
c) When I was rewriting the sign up text (since we couldn't use the ubb one for legal reasons), I encountered a copy of the old one annotated by the doc.
quote:You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.<br><br>
<font color=#FF8B00>"Yah, this is cool. Play straight, we'll do the same."</font> -doc-<br><br>
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-15-2004 13:33
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
Rapidly sidestepping some of the things in this thread (don't make me where trousers just to wade through all that mud!!) a few points which occur to me:
1. People seem to hold this not banning thing up as though it were set in stone. Technically it is (its in a glass case on the first floor corridor of the west wing) but if you check the footnotes there are some exceptions. We have banned by name when the name has been deliberately registered to offend (its usually deleted - I can think of one unpleasant example and the Adolf Hitler one was potentially another - esp. if the German text posted was also offensive). We have also banned people by IP - especially in the days of the Tool School when it was necessary to ban a whole school to calm things down. I emailed the Doc about it and he sorted out the actual banning and I have done similar things on a number of occasions (which incidentally is almost the sum of my contact with the Doc other than postings on the board [edit: Which shouldn't imply we ever fell out just that one of my anti-social sctreaks is not making first contact or only doing so if I need something so......]). Usually the ban was only temporary to give us room to sort things out but there were still a couple of people banned when I checked.
2. Some eyebrows have been raised about people other than the Doc being able to ban people but most Mad Scis had that ability it was just not well known (I didn't find out until recently) - the fact that none of them used that ability (or if it was used it was very rare) should say something. The only real change is that now everyone knows about it.
So thats it really - essentially nothing has changed except that things are less likely to be done on a need to know basis. Obviously greater transparency can lead to initial worries about potential abuse but hopefully it will ultimately lead to better accountability (there are other features in the New Asylum which will also help increase accountability).
What I would suggest is that we have a private mod/admin area where we can discuss such things but in the spirit of greater openness perhaps we can just carry on doing it here (although I suspect we might need such a forum for duller day-to-day decison-making but perhaps not).
[edit: Just adding a 'to' to help it make a little more sense.
Also has anyone else noticed that clicking the edit button lets you edit the pervious post?]
if Mad Sci activity is not logged, some funny guy could go around blocking users and remain unknown.
Actually almost everything a Mad Sci does with his special powers is recorded in the admin log. I'd be surprised if the user promition page is an exception, but even if it is that can be changed easily (and should be done imo).
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-15-2004 14:21
quote:if Mad Sci activity is not logged,
You have seen the admin log, right? All MS actions are being logged, including the promotion/demotion of users.
quote:Also has anyone else noticed that clicking the edit button lets you edit the pervious post?
-uh... send me the url of one of those threads. I thought I had fixed this already.
As for a private admin area - I am against it - this has always been an open place.
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-15-2004 14:33
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
Well, in the end the promotion of all those MS's was Doc's decision, and it is his and only his to undo. There are very few of us with finglongers, and we only have them becuase we are/were the developers here ,and so we need the ability to add modules should they need adding.
As to the power to ban users...well, as Emps said, it doesn't get exercised very often, partially through good management, partially becuase we've got a good bunch of people here and they usually talk anyone down off their high horse or convince them that this is not the place they want to be if they can't be talked down, and it's partially becuase it's not like it's an activity we actually enjoy. It's something we only do when it is necessary, and now it's all stored up in the admin log for the world to see.
And all the MS's have always had the power to ban/promote/demote users, becuase we were always all on the same heriarchical level as the Doc. However, Doc only gave out the URL that you had to go to too do such things to a few people, so most of the MS's were unaware that they had that power...
So, I agree with you InI, I can see this power potentially being abused, but it'll all be documented and there will be acountability. Trust me on that
quote:-uh... send me the url of one of those threads. I thought I had fixed this already.
Well that one I was editting for one (its why I noticed because I kept getting InI's post so I clicked on the one below my post).
If Mad Scis don't think they can trust themselves not to go around deleting people perhaps some options should be made available only to those with finglongers?
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-15-2004 16:01
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-15-2004 16:08
quote:If Mad Scis don't think they can trust themselves not to go around deleting people perhaps some options should be made available only to those with finglongers?
well... you're not deleting them. You're disabling them from posting, which to undo is just two mouse clicks for another MS. We can all watch each other, can't we?
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-15-2004 16:25
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-15-2004 18:48
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-15-2004 18:58
indeed. they are all preserved already. I'll think something up. For now, just assign keywords to those that shall be saved.
quote:I was quite disappointed at WK being banned, or some of the Zigotry,
this finglongers thing makes me feel like I was browsing somethingleet.
and:
quote:Oh hell, I am discovering new features, and not liking some of those:
especially after the "Wulfius Kahn" episode, and others.
Now I may have missed something but Wulfius Kahn was never banned - they emailed me to say they appeared to have lost the ability to post so I checked and they weren't. I suggested that it might be A Sign that they should probably move along and find somewhere else to post but they appear to have solved their problem and are posting again.
ZB has never been banned although they are on my watch list.
And the other episodes that are alluded to? I have no idea what they might be but as there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings already I'd be interested to know what they are as there may be a more prosaic explanation.
quote:And the other episodes that are alluded to? I have no idea what they might be but as there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings already I'd be interested to know what they are as there may be a more prosaic explanation.
hehe - i first read that as "a more Prozac explanation."
*drops some little green and white pills and goes back out
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-18-2004 14:10
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
So basically you see an abuse of power because WK thought he'd been banned because he couldn't log in (despite my explaining it to them) and because ZB who has been trolling, etc. has been told he could be banned? I'm certainly not going to loose any sleep over either of those 'incidents'
I look forward to hearing about these other 'episodes'.
Generally, we have few problems that really require the consideration of banning. Off the top of my head I can think of maybe a half dozen people who I would have considered banning had I the authority. It seems TP and the others did a fantastic job building saftey features into this BB so power isn't abused. If situations arise where we need to discuss banning a member, our MS Laboratory is a perfect area for that.
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-18-2004 17:26
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-18-2004 18:30
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
quote:let's focus on Zigot:
bashing a tard is not really glorious as moderator initiative, is it?
Leaving aside the issue of calling anyone a tard I'm not aware of mods bashing ZB anymore than their behaviour deserved. They have been told that their behaviour is going along the right lines to being banned and I don't see what the problem with that is. Have a look at all the shut 'your forum sucks' threads in this forum started by ZB - thats rampant rolling of the highest order and it would have been remiss of us not to warn them about their behaviour before it actually got to levels where we'd consider banning them.
About the other incidents you refer to: I'm afraid you are far too closely involved with that whole period to be pointing any fingers (even in general terms) but your broader point about people opening and closing threads without their being a reason given is one of the biggest pains in the rear over the years and was one of things that was foremost in everyone's minds during the redesign and I hope the New Asylum has enough measures in place to, if not stop the practice, then at least to provide accountability so we can actually find out what they were thinking of.
[edit: Just fixing typos - damn db's fat fingers!!]
Ini, I understand your concerns over people losing their cool and acting improperly but I don't think its as big of an issue as you're making it out to be. I was unaware of moderators closing and deleting your threads in the past but if that were to happen today it would be very easy to rectify. Take for example a thread I closed recently, New YYH RPG Site.
In clicking the Admin Log button in the bottom right hand corner, you can see all recent actions from moderators. The fifth one from the top is the thread I closed. In clicking the Show Details button in the far right Options column you can see who closed it, when and why it was closed. It also provides a link to the locked thread. Anyone MadSci who wishes can browse to the thread and determine whether or not it is spam. If that moderator chooses to unlock that thread, theres an area for him to give a reason.
If there was a scenario where a moderator was unfairly deleting a members posts or even closing their threads out of spite we'd all know. We can simply view the Admin Log and check out recent activity. If a moderator was abusing his authority certainly it would warrant a discussion on removing that persons status.
With the old system, any moderator could delete a post and no one would be the wiser. The Grail's new system holds everyone accountable for their actions. Except the Doc. I suppose since he's actually paying for this he can ban as many people as he wants.
I couldn't possibly agree more with everything Emperor stated in his last post. I couldn't possibly add anything to it either - just wanted to "second" his sentiments on the issue(s).
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-18-2004 21:15
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-18-2004 21:37
just for the record - I'm also working on a mechanism that will allow us to 'resurrect' deleted threads. (ie. it makes a private copy, which ms will be able to view and restore to their forums, if they deem necessary.)
This has not yet been implemented, for I could have been building this thing for all eternity... or at least till the sun goes out. No hurries.
I think we are all on the same page (which might be cause for a party in itself ) but I don't think there is any need to close this thread - I suspect it will have its uses as I can't imagine we won't have to ever return to the topic again.
TP: It sounds like a good idea to be able to resurect deleted postings - I know I got upset with one of the blatantly racist trolls a while ago and deleted their postings when I shouldn't have and would have liked the opportunity to bring them back when I had a cooler head as evidence of what had happened.
From: Somewhere over the rainbow Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 04-19-2004 00:00
The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.
I think part of the problems that have happened in the past may spring from the notion that once a thread may not be necessary anymore, it should be closed.
Everyone seems to be on the same page more or less, but the patience to just let a thread run whatever course (to a point, of course) it ends up running is also a necessary ingredient here.
^I agree. Threads will die a natural death, and unless things get out of hand, I don't see any reason to go around closing them. Also, once a thread is started, it takes on a life of its own, so even if the thread starter feels that it has served its purpose and should be shut down, others may feel differently.
Instead of banning, a sort of ignore system could help to fight the curiosity to read what treads the trolls have found. That ignore system could be as easy as putting the login of the inmates in the title attribute of the TR embedding their posts. If the ignore list is not stored in the DB of the Asylum, then the whole thing would be up to the inmates and involve the use of additional CSS rules to filter the TR. Otherwise, those CSS rules could be generated and added in the HEAD of the pages ( for the users of IE, something like the IE7 library by Dean EDWARDS is required ) or few lines of JavaScript could do the trick to hide/remove the TR of the ignored users.
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-22-2004 11:37
poi: Killfiles are a bad idea. They quickly fragment communities - because now every one is seeing a different community, only hear half of conversations etc...
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 04-28-2004 19:04
Sorry if I'm not supposed to be in here, but I'm trolling message boards today. OK, bad choice of words. How about I'm in serious work avoidance mode?
Two questions :
1 : What's a "finglonger" ?
2 : I'm not understand the question about banning (and related admin/mod functions) and why it's a problem. I understand that it's a method of last resort and so it should be, but why the hue and cry over more than one person having the ability to perform those sorts of admin duties?
I participate in several different "flavors" of message boards, most of them related to online gaming (MMOGs), and having multiple moderators is a given. You can't expect one person to handle moderation for a large community of any sort, they would start to find it difficult to maintain impartiality. That's why you have multiples, for checks-and-balances (which I see was the final status made for here). In addition, only having one admin can be a chokepoint if that person isn't available for assorted reasons (which is what happens occasionally on my guild forums).
Granted, gaming forums are a lot more volatile than a graphics forum (except for the dreaded politics boards, which I avoid like the plague), but that shouldn't mean similar standards wouldn't apply.
Once again, sorry if I barge in where I don't belong. I tend to read far more than I post anywhere I am.
_____________________ le coeur du feu
Qui sème le vent récolte la tempête!
Tyberius Prime
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist with Finglongers
From: Germany Insane since: Sep 2001
posted 04-28-2004 20:35
Regarding one, our search is bloody amazing - look what it turns up in the first place when you search for finglonger.
posted 04-15-2004 11:51
