Topic awaiting preservation: American Heroes in Iraq..

Check out the gallery depicting the wonderful deeds of some of those heroic individuals that are striving to bring democracy and the values of the west to Iraq. It will make you o proud...

http://www.newyorker.com/online/covers/?040510onco_covers_gallery

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Early this year, the senior U.S. Army commander in Iraq authorized a major investigation into the American Army's prison system there. The fifty-three-page report that resulted, which was written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and was not meant for public release, was devastating. Taguba found numerous instances of "sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" of Iraqis by American soldiers at the Abu Ghraib prison, located twenty miles west of Baghdad. This systematic and illegal abuse, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by members of the 320th Military Police Battalion, and also by members of the American intelligence community. There was considerable evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added, including "detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence"; the photographs, which were taken by American soldiers while the abuse was going on, were not included in the report, Taguba said, because of their "extremely sensitive nature." Here are ten of those photographs (see the related link to the right); we have digitally obscured some details

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QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgement are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-05-2004 08:19)

Your point?

I kind of get the feeling, that you are sarcastically mentioning this...but I do not know why.

I would say, that that which has happened, is probably the end of the "helping", and the beginning of...something else, especially since this has made the news now everywhere (including Iraq).

What little trust America had there, is through these incidents damaged beyond all repair, I think.

As for the soldiers involved in this, I really do not know what they were thinking. I personally, as a Vet, find it appalling. However, War does tend to affect one...somewhat. Maybe the abuse is representitive of the fustration and anger of the soldiers there. If so, then things there are much, much worse then anyone has suggested so far.

I believe it is time to get the soldiers out of Iraq.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Wherever you have foreign troops occupying a nation, and especially when the nationals are hostile toward the occupying forces, you will have brutality. This is not intended as a justification, of course--it sucks, indeed. I just don't understand why anyone would be surprised that this is happening. Perhaps I am being too cynical...

[Edit: Oh, yeah, I've been meaning to say this for some time now: it's "damned," not "dammed."]

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | Keeper of the Juicy Bits

(Edited by Suho1004 on 05-05-2004 11:12)

Whatever the point, and no matter the expectation of it happening, it's disgraceful. I hope there are charges brought against the 'soldiers' involved. Inaddition to the criminal activity shown in the photos (I hope that's considered criminal), I hope that they can somehow throw some kind of charge in that would be along the lines of aiding and abetting the enemy for all the damage this will do for PR with the Arab world.

This is the sort of thing that the word "dishonorable" was made for.

At the ocasion of the publication ot these 'sweet attentions' of the US/UK soldiers toward the IRAQI prisonners, the tape taken by a night of december 2003 from a US helicopter killing 4 people have been broadcasted ... and a general commenting the tape pointed the fact that one of the people was 'just' injured after the first shots, and according to the convention of Geneves, killing him was a murder but the pilot and his officer probably ignored that.

I agree with WS esp.:

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As for the soldiers involved in this, I really do not know what they were thinking.

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Even just on the personal level you'd wonder what possessed them to be photographed mistreating prisoners. I'm afraid if we hadn't already seriously blotted our copybook by now then its ruined after these pictures.

Interestingly its claimed that the UK pictures might be faked and I suppose we shouldn't be suprised if various groups are manipulating opinion.

Does anyone now think that the invasion of Iraq has:

1. Made us more popular in the Arabic world?

2. Made Iraq more stable?

3. Helped make the region a better place?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

I saw this interview the other day...seems that the majority of us could quite easily find ourselves doing what those soldiers did....

Click "A mind to Torture"

http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/


[Edit]True or not... but one of the bits I heard about why photographs were taken...was that the soldier or soldiers involved were'nt too pleased with what they were ordered to do so they took the photo's to show 'other' prisoners what they were in for if they didn't co-operate...thus reducing the possibility they (the soldiers) would have to continue with the humiliation. Like I said true or not. [/Edit]

(Edited by NoJive on 05-05-2004 17:51)

A couple things are painfully obvious here

1) this treatment is unexcusable. period.

2) such things happen in war time, and have always happened in war time, and will always happen in war time.

To once again paint this as a soley 'american' problem, or an american failure, is absurd and irresponsible.

3) to present a known topic with such sarcasm and childish flair, with actual point about the subject is plain silly.

If you want to talk about an issue, then talk about it.

Yeh, whatever.. don't let a twist develop in those pants. I feel such irony because all I ever hear is how good and right the occupation was... and how civilised the wonderful altruistic occupiers are.. and what heroes.. and how the people in Iraq are so happy and grateful and free.. and I never believed it.. Well now we see that is not all true is it? but maybe you are distracted by and want to point to my sarcasm and explain it away with the theory that all men will behave such ways under those circumstances. But don't ya just feel a little dissapointment and a tad of shame? We probably don't even know the half of what goes on out there.

On a list of 'painfully obvious' things.. my insignificant sneer of disgust hardly rates a mention in this issue. What's to discuss/prove/explain exactly? Surely the pictures and story and details that are emurging by the minute speak for themselves. As I mentioned somewhere before.. I find it all very sad actually. I thought it deserved a mention. I'm not gloating.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-05-2004 19:34)

If those kinds of things are all you ever hear, you obviously haven't been paying much attention.

I would have to say there are more detractors of this war here at the asylum than there are supporters. Both americans and non. The media is filled with anti-war sentiments and anti-bush sentiments and anti-amercian sentiments quite often.

Perhaps your pessimism makes you block out the fact that people tend to actually agree with your outlook on issues quite a bit, but simply disagree with your gross generalizational conclusions.

Don't judge an entire operation (or as it seems in your sarcatic case Xpirex, an entire country) based on a few bad apples. That, my good American hater friend, is ignorant.

This type of thing happens on a daily basis across the world and many of these incidents are not in a stressful environment like a warzone. It is also amusing how easily we forget the atrocities commited by the other side. Doesn't excuse it, because it is detestable, but shit happens.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-05-2004 22:42)

I've been gone for some time, i'm back now.

The war in Iraq disgusts me, anyone who participates shouldn't be considered a hero. I know everyone's going to hate me for that comment but I have no sympathy whatsoever.

These atrocities have really damaged the United States in the eyes of the world. Personally, I don't know how much more of our presence the world can endure. The Bush Administration halved our credibility in the world after their repeated claims of WMD was proven false. Now, the US has successfully replaced Saddam's Rape Rooms with US Military Rape Rooms. You'd think the US government would be content just blowing up their schools and hospitals. Nope. We had to spread our values by raping them - literally.

Fortunately, Bush addressed the Arab world today. Considering his record in Iraq, this should boost US popularity in the region.

Edit: I was wrong. Videos actually do exist that show US soliders raping Iraqi men and women. That must be the compasion Pres. Bush is always talking about.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

(Edited by Jestah on 05-06-2004 00:08)

(Edited by Jestah on 05-08-2004 16:23)

A Vote for Bush in 2004 is a vote for dictatorship.

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Don't judge an entire operation (or as it seems in your sarcatic case Xpirex, an entire country) based on a few bad apples.

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Heh.

That is just...uncanny. Take a look Bush's moral high ground slipping away

Especially this part, at the end -

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"Americans still have a huge regard for the U.S. military," Mr. Mann said, "and they may accept this as just a few bad apples."

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Just...erie.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

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"Be on notice," he warned the committee neared the end of an appearance that lasted more than two hours.

"There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist," he said. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040507/D82DT9O80.html

Oh fantastic. If the pictures of US soliders torturing Iraqis didn't boost our popularity through the world, these videos certainly will. It's bad enough we sent a bunch of animals to a foreign country to display our humane side. Who the fuck gave them cameras and video cameras?

The good news is the Red Cross brought this behavior to the Bush Administrations attention a year ago. The bad news is it appears the the Administration shared in Rush Limbaughs beliefs that torturing the Iraqis is a good way to "soften them up".

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Edit: Added link.

(Edited by Jestah on 05-07-2004 21:13)

Jestah: But the point is that we didn't send a bunch of animals we sent a pretty oridinary selection of young people. What happened to them could happen to an awful lot of people taken ou of their country and thrown into something like that. The failing goes up the ladder - the people in charge must have expected this (it happens a lot) and should have put procedures in place to make sure that this kind of systematic abuse couldn't have taken place. e.g. how were they able to hide these prisoners from the Red Cross/Crescent? There should have been tracking, etc. in palce to stop this and regular checks from external bodies. In some ways this comes down to the administrations belief that they can go it alone without the support or even input from important international agencies but while you may win the actual war the battle for hearts and minds in the region is essentially lost - I imagine the Al Qaeda recruiting offices have people queing around the corner for people to sign up - all we have done is sow the whirlwind

I suppose if anything good comes from this is that it will possibly lead to the more widespread discussion of war crimes that have been committed in Afghanistan and our the various torture centres around the world which the US military use when they can't extract the information they require on US soil (and that is just the major abuse I'm aware of who knows what else is going on). The latter being espeically important as it is not isolated incidetns but military policy going right to the top.

Anyway I thought this was an interesting article on the pornograph of the images:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,1211261,00.html

And I know I mentioned mercenaries in another thread but they are a real casue for concern in this abuse situations:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040507/D82DNCQG0.html

and they seem to be using Iraq as a testing ground for new weapons (as I possibly mentioned):

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

Our popularity throughout the middle-east was not good to begin with. Has it ever been good? The thing that concerns me the most is the double edged sword the rest of the world has when viewing the US. It's ok for everybody else to fuck up, but when the US does it, look out. America is horrible.

Muslim and Arab leaders are outraged at the abuse. Funny how some pictures that look like a frat initiation outrage people, yet they fail to look at what their own countries are and have been doing for centuries. You want to talk about a human rights nightmare...

Funny how 4 American contractors can be drug through the streets of Fallujah, dismembered and strung from a bridge, and then have people dancing in celebration, and that is ok. Funny how our captured soldiers are treated with humiliation and worse on a regular basis. Funny how their actions are excusable and some pictures of humiliation can cause international outrage.

Where is the perspective on things? Damn, you all sound like a bunch of Michael Moore wannabes. You basically have a bunch of fucking kids in war who were obviously mentally incapable of controlling themselves, things like this have been known to happen in any war. I don't think any of us, sitting in front of our computers in our comfy office chairs, or sitting on our couches watching our big screen tvs, looking at pictures and media spun stories can even understand the situation.

And please, do not forget the photos of British soldiers urinating and ramming the butt of their rifles into the groin of prisoners.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-08-2004 20:12)

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-08-2004 20:16)

Emps - I don't know. I don't think being that cruel is something that just happens. I think you have to be real fucked up to put a saddle on the back of a 70 year old women and ride her like a horse or hook up a car battery to a persons testicles. Placing a plastic bag on a 70 year old man and watching him suffocate isn't something normal people do. I realize I called those soliders animals in my previous post, but they're much worse then animals.

Ramasax - No ones saying that US soliders are alone in these atrocities. Unfortunately, we were supposed to be different. After Bush's evidence of WMD blew up in his face he claimed we needed to invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons. By humanitarian reasons he clearly meant we needed to rape them.

Although we disagree on most political issues, I'm embarassed for you that you're sitting at your computer thinking of reasons why its ok for US soliders and contractors to torture other humans.

If feeling outrage towards a group of people who rape and kill other people makes me a Michael Moore wannabe, I'm proud to be one. Unfortunately, from you post it sounds to me like you're just another Rush Limbaugh dittohead - coming up with lists of reasons why the US soliders aren't terrorists instead of heros.

One of these days I hope you meet a hero and he rapes you in the ass and puts the video online. Then you should be real proud. God Bless America.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

heh, first off Jestah, I am not, in any way shape of form, trying to justify these actions. We are different, and you, being an American, should know this. There are people like these in every population. Sounds to me like you are judging your entire country based on a few soldiers, or MPs, whatever the hell they are. That is what bothers me.

We disagree on most political issues? lol, I hadn't noticed. You don't have to be embarrased by me, because I am not, as you say, thinking of reasons why this is ok.

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If feeling outrage towards a group of people who rape and kill other people makes me a Michael Moore wannabe, I'm proud to be one.

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Ok then, on the same token, why do you only feel outrage at a group of idiots and not feel outrage at Muslim extremists who are not so selective in the violence and torture and simply want all Americans dead? Where was your outrage when things much worse were going on under Saddam, or the Taliban, or any of those middle-eastern dictators? All I am saying is people need to have a little more perspective on things.

BTW, I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. As far as you last comments, you hope I get raped in the ass? Very nice, you find it so detestable that some Iraqis are stripped naked and grouped into a pyramid, but you hope I get raped in the ass? Only proves once again that you, just like all the other Liberals out there lack something called rationality.

Once again, just to clarify, I am not trying to justify any of these actions, just asking where the perspective has gone.

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Ramasax said:

Funny how 4 American contractors can be drug through the streets of Fallujah, dismembered and strung from a bridge, and then have people dancing in celebration, and that is ok.

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You might have to point out to me where I (or the majority of people in the West objecting to the War) have said it was acceptable. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

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Ramasax said:

Damn, you all sound like a bunch of Michael Moore wannabes.

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Oddly people have been expressing left wing/anti-war views for longer than Michael Moore and they have been doing it significantly better - it possibly proves my point about Moore: That it is clear that the only way to get these kinds of topics onto the agenda is to have a loud mouth running pointing out things (which the right have always had plenty of) but I hope that once he has people's attention that people take the time to read into things. Technically if that was directed at me I take it as an insult.

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Ramasax said:

And please, do not forget the photosof British soldiers urinating and ramming the butt of their rifles into the groin of prisoners.

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Odly I think I have already mentioned that and I am in no way implying it is an American problem (hence m use of 'we' above).

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Jestah said:

Emps - I don't know. I don't think being that cruel is something that just happens. I think you have to be real fucked up to put a saddle on the back of a 70 year old women and ride her like a horse or hook up a car battery to a persons testicles. Placing a plastic bag on a 70 year old man and watching him suffocate isn't something normal people do. I realize I called those soliders animals in my previous post, but they're much worse then animals.

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I'm afraid war, esp. in a country that you are 'liberating' which doesn't want you there, will tend to make people do terrible things. It isn't want normal people do in the safety of their own homes but it happens a lot when people are forced into terrible decisions. What I'm saying is that it should have been planned for and dealt with - this is a series of isolated incidents but they suggest a failing in th chain of command to plan for it.

I'd recommend you read:

An Intimate History of Killing: Face-to-Face Killing in Twentieth-Century Warfare by Joanna Bourke.

On Killing by Dave Grossman.

No More Heroes: Madness and Psychiatry in War by Richard A. Gabriel.

Four Hours in My Lai: A War Crime and Its Aftermath by Kevin Sim and Michael Bilton.

Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century by Jonathan Glover.

And look at stuff like:

http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/ccsavich-propaganda.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/21/wviet21.xml

___________________
Emps

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Nobody said it was acceptable emps, but it was pushed aside rather quickly. I just get fed up with the double standards where the US is concerned.

The Muslim/Arab leaders and the world at large demands action be taken? They ask us to police ourselves. They demand apologies. Where were they when their citizens were hanging our fellow countrymen from bridges and dancing with joy? Where were they when Jessica Lynch was raped by their people? Where were they when Daniel Pearl was turtured and eventually had his throat sliced on their television networks? Where were they while thousands of Iraqi women were raped under Saddam? Where were they when over 1 million Iraqi children died of starvation while Saddam was building gold-adorned temples? Where were they when hundreds of Afghans were hung from lampposts by the Taliban as a warning to would be defectors? Where were they when Saddam raped and pillaged one of his neighbors? Where were they when thousands of Kurds were gassed to death? Where were they when the WTC was bombed in 1993? Where were they when the USS Cole was attacked? Where were they when 4 of our domestic airplanes were hijacked resulting in over 3000 US civilian deaths and billions in damage? Where were they when the train bombing in Madrid occurred? I'm sure you get the point. Did we ever hear apologies or promises of investigation or change? NOPE. This is for you Jestah, you want to know the difference between us and them, there it is. We freely admit our mistakes and are willing to apologize and push for change when we know we are wrong. They are not.

My Michael Moore comment was made primarily to Jestah, who is generalizing the entire situation without looking at the big picture and putting things into perspective. He is making it sound like he believes all Americans are evil. The world is doing the same and the double-standard makes me ill.

Ramazax: Well those acts were condemned by various sources - including moderate Moslems in this country and in Iraq. If you didn't see those reported in the media then that is not really their issue.

I think the key thing is that we went in claiming the moral high ground and the people who commited those acts are terrorists, thieves, psychopaths, etc. and it appears we have suk to their level.

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Just spotted this in the paper which is quite a dsitrubing developemtn if true

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The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1212150,00.html

I'm not sure if WS really wants to comment on that but........

___________________
Emps

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The double standard is utterly contemptable and it is completely expected. Before this war began I said that we will be hated if we act and hated if we do nothing. The fact is that we are hated for who we are. I do not understand why being loved by others is such a preoccupation. Emps and Jestah, since you are in this particular thread, why is that a priority? Shouldn't we concern our actions with whether they are right or wrong and then let the chips fall where they may?

Do either of you believe in the ideals our countries hold dear? If so, why are they not worth putting into action?

The fact is that we will never be liked by the likes of Al Qaeda unless we are willing to submit to their demands. Theirs cause is driven by ideaology. I know you probably still believe that we cause their attacks but you are just wrong about that. I don't know much clearer I can state it than that.

Jestah said:

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Placing a plastic bag on a 70 year old man and watching him suffocate isn't something normal people do.

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How are you defining normal? You are making a serious value judgement in this statement.

Emps said:

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...but I hope that once he has people's attention that people take the time to read into things.

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Don't hold your breath on that one, Emps. Just as you will always have abuses in war time, you will have the masses willfully ignorant of such unpleasant realities.

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it should have been planned for and dealt with

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It can always be planned better but I don't want us to use that as an excuse for never acting. This was already being investigated when it hit the press.

I find it fascinating how predictable our positions are on such topics. Emps, I see you making excuses for this behavior. I hear you saying that it was an external force that made these soldiers abuse these prisoners. I am not surprised by that anymore than I am not surprised that I support coming down extremely hard on them for their actions. We have a very different view of human nature. Even if this was an order from above, do you think people with any sense of morality would carry out torture like this? (I include that word because there was that one case where they made a prisoner believe he would be electrocuted if he fell of that box. That is torture)

No, these people who did this are criminals. This is contrary to what we stand for as a society and contrary to the military code of ethics. They have no excuse for this and they need to be punished. Any superiors who ordered this should also be taken down hard. I doubt they have any idea just how much damage they have done to this effort. The Arab world places tremendous significance on face and honor. This has set us back in trying to win any hearts and minds in this war. It's deplorable.

As a continuation of the multiple apologies begun by our leaders, I would love to see public trials begun and our justice process broadcast throughout the Arab world to show them how our society deals with its own when we contravene our own ideals. We can best show who we are by living by our own ideals. One of our ideals is that we will not sit by *forever* and let bad situations get worse and that we realize that when we act, we will not act perfectly but that we will do the best we can.

Now that we have acted in a big way, we see we are not perfect. That should come as no surprise. This was always described by those of us who favored this war as a long and difficult process that would take at least a decade of effort and probably more. So many good things are happening in Iraq for so many who were oppressed before that I cannot fathom how people are still saying we should not have embarked on this. I never thought this was going to be a cake walk and hearing the left characterize it that way just seems strange. You cannot invade a country and try to establish a fledgling democracy in a part of the world that has *never* known it and not expect a hard time.

I've got so much more to say but that is enough for this post. I'm sorry for the choppiness of my word flow up there.


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(Edited by Bugimus on 05-08-2004 22:55)

There was one cleric in Iraq that condemned the treatment of the dead bodies of the contractors but said not a word about killing them in the first place.

That being said, I don't think it is the case that there are ZERO Muslims that condemn such actions for I know they exist. The problem is that their numbers are so incredibly small compared to the Muslim world as a whole that the majority's silence overwhelms their condemnations.

Emps, do you believe this silence is our fault? Or do you think that values and ideals of the Arab world in conjunction with a particular brand of Islam is the primary difference between our societies?


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(Edited by Bugimus on 05-08-2004 22:58)

As a side issue, these double standards are something that exist everywhere in relation to just about everything.

It's simple matter of the more powerful group being held to a higher responsibility.

It's the same reason comedians can make fun of white people all day long, but any derogatory black or hispanic jokes are liable to get you killed, sued, fired, etc...

Is it right? Well...that's a debatable issue.

But there is the simple fact that when a group takes a role of power - willingly or unwillingly - that power brings with it responsibility. It's not contemptable whatsoever. It's normal, in every way.

Haven't you guys ever read Spiderman??

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I think the key thing is that we went in claiming the moral high ground and the people who commited those acts are terrorists, thieves, psychopaths, etc. and it appears we have suk to their level.

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WE, as a whole, have not sunk to their level. Do we condemn an entire police force for the actions of one or two individuals? Are all cops immoral when one of them does something awful? No, we understand as a society that they will be dealt with and punished. It may appear that we have sunken to their level to some, particularly those who like to generalize situations, but I state again, we are willing to admit when we are wrong. The ability to percieve between right and wrong and apologize when we are in the latter is the main difference here, and IMO justifies us taking the moral high road.

Did Saddam ever say he was wrong, apologize, or admit responsibility of his actions and atrocities? Did Al-Queda? Did the Taliban? How about Hitler? How about Stalin? This is what separates US from THEM, the ability to percieve right from wrong and the same action to act on righting the wrongs and taking responsibility for our wrongs. The ability to apologize.

As horrible as the US is supposed to be I find it surprising we have so many people seeking a place in our society. What other nations get people crossing miles of ocean in a raft seeking what we have, freedom.

We have the power to bomb the fuck out of them and turn the entire region to glass if we so wished it, but we don't. Why? Because it is wrong. If they were in our position, why do I sense we would all be dead by now? Because in all likelyhood we would be.

To me, the biggest threat to success in Iraq lies right here at home, in the press and in the mouths of certain loudmouth communists from Hollywood and left-wing idealist liberal politicians detached from reality. While this recent scandal sets us back a bit, I believe this to be the real threat to establishing a democratic Arab state.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-09-2004 01:12)

quote:

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Bugimus said:

Emps, I see you making excuses for this behavior. I hear you saying that it was an external force that made these soldiers abuse these prisoners. I am not surprised by that anymore than I am not surprised that I support coming down extremely hard on them for their actions. We have a very different view of human nature. Even if this was an order from above, do you think people with any sense of morality would carry out torture like this? (I include that word because there was that one case where they made a prisoner believe he would be electrocuted if he fell of that box. That is torture)

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But I'm not making excuses for it I'm just saying I can understand it can happen and why it happens and that war is terrible and brutalises young people into doing things they wouldn't do at home.

There is a lot of research into killing in war and the suprising thing is that the majority of people don't actually do much/any of it and the vast majority of the killing is done by a limited number of people whos brains are wired for it (they split fairly evenly into 'heroes' and psychopaths). If you bear that in mind and read the Mai Lai book you can see this psychopathic 1% of people at work killing indescriminantly. Are the other people heroes? The vast majority of them aren't they carry the ammo, they finsih off wounded civilians, one guy spends a very long time stabbing a cow, etc. There are only a couple of people who actually stood up and spoke up and they are the genuine heroes the others were just caught up in maelstrom of madness, blood and violence. As with these torture cases I don't find any of this acceptable and it demeans us all collectively and I think they should throw the book at them as they should have know better than to do this.

What I'm saying is that killing people is actually against our mental wiring and that to get people to go to war means you have to train them to break through this and in extreme circumstances this can result in some terrible things happening and the army knows that because it happens a lot and while the people who commited these acts should be punished we need to make sure there are sufficient controls over people and their prisoners so such widespread incidents like this don't happen.

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Emps

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[edit]whoa! everyone posted at once. I was replying to DL just now...

I completely agree with you *except* it not being contemptable. It is also "normal" to abuse prisoners of war but I also find that unacceptable.


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(Edited by Bugimus on 05-09-2004 01:11)

Bugs: I agree.

What I was largely objecting to was Jestah calling them animals and psychopaths. Things are even scarier than that as they are normal people and we have to face up to the fact that normal people can do terrible things in terrible situations and we have to watch out for it constantly. In the Holocaust it was normal people who drove the trains to the death camps and it was normal people that compromised the bureaucracy that allowed the industrialisation of death.

Ramasax: I'm unsure who you are talking about but no one here is saying that the whole US is at fault for the actions of a few people - these things happen in every country. What I do think is interesting that people so often paint Islam as some kind of threat when it is purely the actions of a minority. Perhaps both sides have lessons to learn here - I just doubt anyone is in a learning frame of mind at the moment.

What worries me is that you think that actually questioning the actions of our leaders is somehow some kind of subversive act whereas it is the true balance of a democratic society and anything else is a very dangerous road to go down.

___________________
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quote:

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What worries me is that you think that actually questioning the actions of our leaders is somehow some kind of subversive act whereas it is the true balance of a democratic society and anything else is a very dangerous road to go down.

---

No problem with questioning leaders at all. But when objectiveness and truth is discarded and/or distorted by the media/big players is when I get concerned, because that is a very dangrous road as well.

quote:

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What I do think is interesting that people so often paint Islam as some kind of threat when it is purely the actions of a minority.

---

Actions of a minority. Supported by the majority. From what I have seen, Islam IS a threat. Hardly the peacful religion some would try and paint it as. You simply have to look at the culture it has cultivated to see that.

Ramasax: It warms Europeans heart to hear an Americn complain about the left wing bias of the US press

And while a while ago I would have been able to argue (possiblt successfully) that it was in fact a vocal minority that considered the US (and its allies) to be the Great Satan after the invasion of Iraq and all the human rights abuses (including lets be honest the faked stuff) I'm unsure if that is the case now.

------------------------
It is this kind of thing that makes me wonder if there was a problem higher up the chain of command in not preparing for these abuses:

quote:

---

As international anger continued to grow over the Americans' behaviour, one of the seven soldiers facing possible court martial for abusing detainees revealed that she did not read, or even see, a copy of the Geneva Convention until two months after she was charged. Specialist Sabrina Harman, 26, said she now understood that it was regularly breached at Abu Ghraib. "I read the entire thing, highlighting everything the prison is in violation of. There's a lot," she said.

---

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/09/wtort09.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixnewstop.html

If someone is running a prison and looking after prisoners why were they not actually sat down and instrcuted on the Geneva Convention and a prisoner's human rights?

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Emps

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And how about this?:

quote:

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TORTURE REPORT MAY HAVE BROKEN CLASSIFICATION RULES

By classifying an explosive report on the torture of Iraqi prisoners as "Secret," the Pentagon may have violated official secrecy policies, which prohibit the use of classification to conceal illegal activities.

The report, authored by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, found that "between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility, numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees."

---

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2004/05/050504.html

Clearly the perpertrators need to be punished severely but there does need to be a shake up in the system - clearly things like this will still happen (I doubt short of getting rid of war we can stop i completely) but this widespread abuse needs to be addressed at higher levels in the military.

___________________
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And not wishing to go on about it but what about the possible stripping an beating of a 12 year old girl:

http://www.itv.com/news/623337.html

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Emps, you seem to be under the impression that I give a shit what Europeans, or any other country for that matter, thinks about the US.

And that article about the stripping and beating of a 12 yo girl. Sure, straight from the mouth of the enemy. Or do you consider al-Jazeera to be a reliable source of news? Next thing you know we will have concentration camps and gas chambers set up and Bush will be shown with a silly mustache. Oh, the power of propaganda.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-09-2004 06:19)

quote:

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From what I have seen, Islam IS a threat. Hardly the peacful religion some would try and paint it as. You simply have to look at the culture it has cultivated to see that.

---

HAHAHA, yo ramasax..go read this

your source was too anti-muslim...

you shouldn't read from Muslim haters to find out about Islam...(same rule applies to anything else, I believe it is a common sense)

not to mention what so called christians have done...

I am so sick of people trying to justify their actions, beliefs, leaders etc.

...hey people...get over that shit...think out of box.

I mean seriously, every nation has done crazy shit...none is holy...get over it

(Edited by Ruski on 05-09-2004 06:34)

quote:

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Conservative Christian author and radio pastor Dave Hunt claims: "...there are more than 100 verses in the Qur'an advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims, 'Take not the Jews and Christians as friends....Slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them.... Fight against such...as believe not in Allah...' (Surah 5:51; 9:5,29,41, etc..). Though most Muslims would shrink from obeying such commands, this is official Islam and it cannot change without admitting that Muhammad was a false prophet and murderer."

---

This is not a claim, but fact. Explain it.

In any case, I wasn't even referring to the site you are thinking. http://www.faithfreedom.org/ a site run by former Muslims.

I was simply stating to take a look at the culture Islam has cultivated.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-09-2004 06:50)

once again you ignore the fact:

quote:

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Islam is not a homogenous religion. It is divided into many subgroups, including Sunni, Shi'ite, and Sufi. A very small, radical, hate-filled, extremist, Fundamentalist, terrorist wing does exist. So too does a much larger peaceful, moderate wing. Unfortunately, the former seem to capture all the media's attention, while the latter is rarely heard from.

It obvious that no one individual speaks for all Muslims. Islam has no single central authority, comparable to the pope and Vatican for the Roman Catholic Church, or to various General Assemblies and the Lambeth Conferences for the Anglican Communion. Rather, it is divided into many traditions and schools.

This phenomenon is true of most religions. Consider the over 1,000 Christian groups in North America. They include some hate-filled groups as well

---

----
don't just pick random quotes man...read the whole thing...

quote:

---

Ramasax said:

Emps, you seem to be under the impression that I give a shit what Europeans, or any other country for that matter, thinks about the US.

---

Well your posts above suggest that you do give a shit about both domestic and foreign reporting of this so........

And if you don't give a shit then you should - America doesn't live in a little bubble separate from the world and this kind of thing can have long term reprecussions on the US.

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It is especially aim at Ramasax, but you all can also take a look at why religion promotes hatred, violence, etc.

Also: to protect Islam a bit more:

quote:

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This is nothing but a manifestation of injustice, oppression and tyranny...and it is amongst the greatest of sins." Sheik Abdul-Azeez Aal ash-Sheik, grand mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and head of the Council of Senior Scholars, speaking about the 9-11 terrorist attack.

---

and to all of you who want to find out more about Islam
check out that unbiased source.

(Edited by Ruski on 05-09-2004 16:03)

Interestingly while she didn't show early signs of violence the guy she was seeing in Iraq (who is the father of her unborn child) sounds like an unpleasant character:

quote:

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Mr Graner remains in Iraq. He appears in several of the photographs, most memorably standing with tattooed arms folded, lording it over a heap of naked Iraqi men. A reservist following a stint in the Marine corps, in civilian life Mr Graner worked as a guard at a maximum security prison in Pennsylvania.

In 1998, two years after he went to work there, more than 20 guards were demoted or reprimanded for abuse that included beatings, or forcing inmates to play a form of Simon Says, with punishment for those who failed to follow instructions. Prison officials did not tell reporters whether Mr Graner was involved in the scandal.

At about the same time, Mr Graner's wife, Staci, accused him of breaking into their home, dragging her out of bed by the hair, and stalking her with hidden video cameras after the breakdown of their marriage. The New York Times cited court records showing at least three restraining orders against him since 1997.

---

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1211992,00.html

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I just ran across this, From the Frontlines: A Combat Soldier's View of the Iraq Prison Abuse Case.

Like I said, I wonder if those abusers know just how much damage they have done.


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No I don't think they do - never having fought in a war I'd not wish to really comment but I suspect WS might have more insight into the strange parallel you can get into when some thing seem OK - see the Stanford prison Experiment and Milgram's experiments.

------------------------
Saw this:

quote:

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I suspect that Donald Rumsfeld is not a particularly squeamish man: one does not rise to become US Defence Secretary by having too great a regard for the little niceties of behaviour. So when Mr Rumsfeld warned a Senate committee last Friday that "the worst is yet to come" regarding the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers in Abu Ghraib jail, my mind reeled. The world had already seen photographs of a laughing Lynddie England mocking the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi and leading another naked prisoner on a dog leash. How much worse could it get?

Much worse, apparently. Rumsfeld wearily admitted that there are many more photographs and videos depicting acts against prisoners "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman". Military officials have already told NBC news that the unreleased images show US soldiers beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death; having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner and "acting inappropriately with a dead body". This wasn't just an interrogation centre with a couple of rogue soldiers in it: it was a sadistic free-for-all of the basest kind.

---

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/05/09/do0905.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixnewstop.html

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Emperor Said:

quote:

---

both sides have lessons to learn here - I just doubt anyone is in a learning frame of mind at the moment.

---

As is well demonstrated in this thread alone.

Ramasax - would you care to find the number of verses in the bible which promote violence? Would you care to examine the violent history of mainstream christianity? You need to seriously educate yourself on this matter before so assuredly judging an entire religion.

Be careful how harshly you condemn one side's propaganda while simultaneously embracing the other side's.

This is an interesting article about whether torture can ever be justified (with no easy answers):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1212158,00.html

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-09-2004 21:17)

Hey Ramasax er.. regarding that Jessica Lynch character.. what is the truth about that story? Where are you getting your info from about the apparent rape?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3028585.stm

Apparently she can't remember a thing..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85936,00.html

...and as for that rape theory that you wave as a banner..
http://www.counterpunch.org/goff12132003.html


That kind of ignorance and narrow dogmatism is quite ugly.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 07:52)

quote:

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Where is the perspective on things? Damn, you all sound like a bunch of Michael Moore wannabes. You basically have a bunch of fucking kids in war who were obviously mentally incapable of controlling themselves, things like this have been known to happen in any war. I don't think any of us, sitting in front of our computers in our comfy office chairs, or sitting on our couches watching our big screen tvs, looking at pictures and media spun stories can even understand the situation.

---

I'm getting awefully tired of your mouth, boy. Especially the bold part - I told you before, I am a Gulf War Vet. Apparently, you didn't listen. Apparently you have no fucking clue about war, either. I would normally suggest that you pull your head out, but I'm afraid that it is stuck beyond all manner of repair. In fact, your "reasoning", if that is what one can call it, is so far from the mark, that it is difficult to even comment on it, without breaking down into vulgarities.

QUIT LUMPING ME IN WITH YOUR "MICHAEL MOORE WANNABES" AND "COMFY OFFICE CHAIRS" - GOT IT? I walked the walk, as well as talk the talk. Get that through your fucking head.

@Emps - Are you sure you want my rundown on the handling of the Prisoners?

First of all, let us differentiate between interrogation and torture. This can sometimes be a fine line. Interrogation methods are mainly used to get reliable information out of someone (normally the enemy). There are many, many different techniques, but all are centered on "cracking" the will and resistance of the person in question. There are basically two different techniques involved here : Psychological and Physical (and combinations of the two). Now, it has been proven, that Physical interrogation methods are mostly ineffective when applied alone, singularly. Conversely, Psychological techniques often take a very long time to get results. A combination of the two does tend to produce the best results, but only in the hands of experts. The main difference between interrogation and torture are, IMHO, the required lengths that one has to go to, to get the desired results. Interrogation is the art of using the minimun necessary Psychological and Physical techniques to reach that which is desired (information). The techniques used should leave as little scars (physical and psycological) as possible, while reaching the desired objective. Interrogation is allowed under the Geneva Conventions, although the techniques allowed are limited.

Torture is exactly the opposite of interrogation. It is not really useful as an interrogation tool, as one under torture is apt to say anything that the torturer wants to hear, irregardless of whether or not it is true. As such, it is totally unreliable as an information gathering tool. It is normally used to repress, and to inspire terror in target groups (such as a resistance). History shows that it doesn't work, in the long run. In the short run, however, it is remarkable effective, if somewhat crude (that is an understatement). Torture is considered illegal by the Geneva Conventions.

So, what has happpened in Iraq? Is what happened Interrogation gone wild, or actually Torture, under the disguise of Interrogation? Herin lies both the question, and the answer.

If it is interrogation (albeit gone wild), then it comes from higher up the chain of command. In that sense, then it is not a "small bunch of apples", but rather, a systematic and used system, that has gotten out of control. To a seasoned vet (such as myself) this is chilling, as it shows a breakdown in discipline. For anyone who has military experience, then you know what that means.

If it is actual Torture, then I would tend to suspect a "few bad apples" started it, and that it has spread, to others...and that the Chain of Command slowly became aware of it. From what I can tell from the pictures that I have seen, these were not interrogation methods (at least, not most of them) that I have heard of, or undergone in training. It looks more, like some sort of humiliation stuff gone totally off the deep end, ending in actual torture. However, should it be shown that this was ordered, then we have a real problem on our hands, that indicate that this type of behavior is widespread - and that is not the military that I know. In the first Gulf War, we did not treat prisoners so.

Irregardless of what it is, what the hell where the people thinking, that took pictures??!! Of all the stupid things to do...well, that cat is out of the bag now. No way of stuffing it back in.

Whatever credability, and "moral" high ground that we had, is now lost. Anyone that cannot acknowledge that, really is suffering from Reality loss. Irregardless of whther or not this type of activity is widespread, the image that it is, is impossible to shake in the minds of the Iraqis, who just came out from under the Terror Regime of Saddam. The difference being, that we don't use "death squads" to hunt down dissenters and kill them and their family...and that makes us weak, in their eyes, IMHO.

I am dreading how this thing is going, and turning out. It pains me to the core of my being, to see what is happening. The scars of Vietnam still sit deep within the Psyche of America, and the Military...we were just starting to get through that. Are we going to replace that, with Iraq?

I hope not. But it is slowly turning in that ugly direction...

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-10-2004 08:27)

I think I have double vision..

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 08:36)

oops.. accidental double post... (caused by a delay in the appreance of the first..)

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 08:32)

Thank you WebShaman for sharing your experience of war and military operations. As you said, the coalition, and the west in general, have lost the rest of its credibility with those acts of torture. As the day passes and number of pictures and videos grows, this practice seems to be rather wide spread alas. The coalition came in IRAQ in the name of democracy and freedom. I'm not saying that all the troops of the coalition tortured the prisonners but those who did vanished the great ideas they were supposed to promote in the heart of the Iraqi people and the arab community. Now some Iraqi people are saying publicly that they refuse to have a democracy in their country. Add to that, that all that mess is working for the terrorists and resistance who are certainly already planning some attacks to "punish" these acts.

I find this Accused soldier's dad: Where were his leaders?
to be very concerning, especially this part :

quote:

---

Earlier, his father, Daniel Sivits, said his son was trained as a truck mechanic, not a prison guard, ... -Boston Herald

---

Does anyone know if this is true? Was (is) Mr. Sivits a Truck Mechanic? If so, what the Hell was he doing guarding prisoners?

If it should turn out, that he indeed was trained as a Truck Mechanic, and was somehow "assigned" to guarding the prisoners...where were/are the MPs, who are normally responsible?

A Truck Driver is not trained to guard prisoners. I find this highly irregular.

Back to Interrogation - here is a good example `Torture lite' authorized for use at Guantanamo Bay - though I disagree with the title. Here is more specific :

quote:

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Officials at the highest levels of the US defense and justice departments approved interrogation techniques such as sleep disruption and temperature extremes for detainees at its base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, The Washington Post reported yesterday.

The techniques were designed to put stress on detainees and disorient them. Stripping detainees was permitted if they were alone in their cells, officials told the Post. Some of the other 20 techniques included "sensory assault," such as subjecting the detainees to loud music and bright lights, or making them stand for hours at a time, but physical contact was not permitted, the officials told the Post.

They said a similar policy was in force for detainees in Iraq believed to have information on terrorist or insurgency operations, but whether those guidelines were in force at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Bagdad, where US soldiers had abused Iraqi prisoners, was not known.

---

Now that is the definition of Interrogation that I know of, which, as one can see, is much different from Torture (and what went on at Abu Ghraib).

And this

quote:

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The Post said that Guantanamo interrogators must win the approval of senior officials at the Pentagon, and sometimes even Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to use such techniques by justifying it as "militarily necessary," and detainees subjected to such treatment must be watched by medical personnel.

---

is what makes me very uneasy about the events at Abu Ghraib.



WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-10-2004 13:43)

Yes WebShamen.. that was very imformative thanks. Here are a few snippets from the reports of the Red Cross and Amnesty International.

quote:

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The international Red Cross says the abuse it found in Iraq's US-run prisons was systematic and amounted to torture, adding that it first raised concerns with the United States more than a year ago. At a quickly-arranged news conference, the International Committee of the Red Cross' director of operations, Pierre Kraehenbuehl, said US authorities had broken international laws and their transgressions had been documented in an ICRC report. "The elements we found were tantamount to torture... There were clearly incidents of degrading and inhuman treatment," he told reporters.

---

quote:

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It is the contempt for due process and civil liberties by Bush and other administration officials that has led to the culture of impunity under which these abuses have occurred. The culture of any organization starts at the top, and lower ranking members take the lead from those above them. In the administration?s bluster to protect America by suspending civil liberties, they unwittingly fostered an environment where gross violations of international law and human decency were tacitly, though not explicitly condoned. While direct orders from top military brass surely were never given to rape, murder and sexually humilate prisoners, these acts are the result of administration policies that lack transparency and accountability

---

quote:

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When asked by reporters about the legality of such policies, Administration officials dismissed the questions and countered that the prisoners were terrorists and must be dealt with in a unique manner. Since these prisoners were held in camps outside the borders of the United States, no evidence was needed in order to hold them and there was no way to independently verify who they were or how many of them were being detained. Prisoners were interrogated using unknown methods in order to find out any information they may have had on terrorist plots. Statements made by administration officials described the prisoners as terrorists and evil-doers, promoting the idea that they were guilty until proven innocent. Of course there was no way for any of the prisoners to prove themselves innocent, since they were denied access to legal counsel or a court for legal redress. Bush himself and members of his administration, not limited to but including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft and Condoleeza Rice, stated that in many cases there may not be sufficient evidence to try and convict prisoners due to the shadowy nature of the terror networks. They argued that national security concerns meant that it was necessary to work outside of the law in order to protect America.

When photos of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners were plastered all over the media last week, it shocked and appalled Americans on both sides of the idealogical spectrum that such a blatant violation of our values could have happened. Where did those soldiers get the idea that they could use such ghastly tactics? What went wrong?

When the Bush administration said that America would not take part in the international criminal court, which would have allowed Americans to be tried for war crimes, it sent a message.

When the Pentagon declared that the United States would no longer be bound by the Geneva conventions, it sent a message.

It is the contempt for due process and civil liberties by Bush and other administration officials that has led to the culture of impunity under which these abuses have occurred. The culture of any organization starts at the top, and lower ranking members take the lead from those above them. In the administration?s bluster to protect America by suspending civil liberties, they unwittingly fostered an environment where gross violations of international law and human decency were tacitly, though not explicitly condoned. While direct orders from top military brass surely were never given to rape, murder and sexually humiliate prisoners, these acts are the result of administration policies that lack transparency and accountability. As the investigation into the Columbia space shuttle disaster showed, it was the culture at NASA which led to the tragedy. Similarly it is the culture of extra-legal authority and impunity created by the Bush administration which has led to the abuses of these prisoners. The same policies which were deemed necessary to protect America now threaten to destroy our credibility.

Donald Rumsfeld said that he is fully responsible for the abuses which have occurred, but he is incorrect. He is not alone in creating the culture that allowed this tragedy to occur. In the blame game he is merely the cat?s paw. To hold Rumsfeld solely accountable is to merely swat at flies. If, as Bush says, America is a land where men are held accountable, Rumsfeld should be immediately fired, while Bush himself should be thrown out of office in November. Only then may we begin the task of restoring our values and repairing our reputation.

---

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 19:22)

quote:

---

The Bush team has made a mess in Iraq, but the pathologies of the Arab world have also contributed ? and the sheer delight that some Arab media take in seeing Iraq go up in flames is evidence of that. It's time for the Arab world to grow up ? to stop dancing on burning American jeeps and claiming that this is some victory for Islam.

---

From Cursed by Oil By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN. I wanted to post this in regards to the points made above about Islam causing much of the problems in the ME. While I have some serious issues with the religion, it alone is not the cause of the problems. The problems in the Arab world are far more deeply rooted than just its adherence to Islam. I like this article because it brings another level of perspective to this whole business.

And on a similar note of perspective, ask yourself why we are going completely ape sh*t over the prisoner abuses and the world media is swamped with that and ask yourself what you know about the Sudan. This does not remove any blame or any responsibility for what we are doing wrong in Iraq BUT to lose our perspective on world affairs is a very dangerous thing. Sudan? A problem? Why do little coverage? The news media is a very powerful entity and it has the power to shape world debate. We must be careful to keep our perspective on things in spite of what any organization wants us to focus on.


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I agree wholeheartedly that media coverage is very unbalanced, and that global knowledge of so many atrocities happening daily around the world is disgustingly low because of the focus on US actions.

The problem, however, is that we have created that focus ourselves. We ahve made a media frenzy out of Iraq in an effort to paint a picture that required us to be there.

Now that we are, our government's actions are to blame for the focus on Iraq - for good or bad - and not anything else.

I agree we certainly share blame for making Iraq an issue. It is also a function of what you said before about the biggest power getting most of the scrutiny. I will not argue at all with that *and* I believe it is our burden to deal with being the largest power. I accept it as a human reality and we just need to move forward with that understanding.

But just because we get most of the scrutiny does not excuse the wrong doings of those with less power. This is one of the key points where I differ with the modern Liberal line of thought. Liberalism holds that morality and responsibility stems from power and decreases as you have less power. I find that to be incorrect. Some of the most moral people I know are poor and powerless while some of the most wicked are rich and powerful. Morality and virtue stands on its own merits. Just because the Arab world is not a superpower except for its economic sway with oil does not reduce its responsibility in the least.

To expect less from those with less power, in my opinion, is a supreme insult to their humanity. I'm not saying that you are suggesting that, DL, but I am concerned this is a position taken by many. We are greatly responsible for our actions *especially* because of our role in modern geopolitics but so is everyone else in this world stage and we should expect no less.


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Oh certainly.

I think the problem tends to be more in the line of people ignoring the actions of nations that do not involve the US directly (or atleast not overtly) rather than the excusing of their actions.

I think it is a complete travesty that Iraq held the headlines steadily through some of the chilling and abhorant actions in various parts of Africa over the last few months.

Which of course begs the question - where has our great crusader's concern for ridding the world of evil been throughout those events??

Ummmm...the "trickle down" theory (domino effect)?

Personally, I don't think it was really about "cleaning up" the world...just certain parts of it.

Business as usual...with a slight twist.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Actually, that's the idea WS. Iraq is hopefully the beginning of a long process of reform in the Arab world. If it indeed becomes an independent self sustaining democracy, it will be the first one. The hope is that it will get the populations of the neighboring monarchies and dictatorships to wonder why they can't have the same.

DL-44, we do not do enough about the atrocities that occur on the African continent. But I'm sure you're not actually calling for the invasion of the Sudan by the US or anyone else for that matter... are you? I don't see any other way to stop the genocide. If you've got any alternate suggestions I would very much like to explore them.

You and I both know the so called "free world" ignores violence that occurs on that continent unless it is perpetrated by whites against non-whites. It's been a basic foreign policy of the US and UK for decades. Black on black violence a la Ruwanda is ignored every bit as much as arab on black violence is ignored in the Sudan. We, the US, do next to nothing about it and the rest of the world even less. For instance, we walked out of a UN human rights meeting where Sudan was given its third term sitting on the Human Rights Commision. A completely symbolic act to be sure but at least we said something officially. Why don't any other nations object?

Why didn't Clinton do something about Ruwanda? I remember Dick Morris addressing that exact point in an interview where he explained to Clinton at the time, who genuinely wanted to do something, that the American public couldn't care less about a bunch of blacks in the middle of Africa. He advised Clinton there would not be enough political support for acting there. He may have been right but we'll never know now that the genocide has been committed.

Actually, I heard an absolutely fascinating interview this morning on my drive into work about this whole Iraq affair that I hope to share later but I've got to go for now.


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Some interesting points about the lack of complaints and some of the background to the whole thing (a tad disconnected but.....):

quote:

---

Seeing the terrible pictures of the beheading of Nicholas Berg, it's easy to miss the significance of the soundtrack that accompanies them. The taped voice - presumably that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian associate of Osama bin Laden - rails not just against the Bush administration, but against the torpor of the Arab world. "The shameful photos are evil humiliation for Muslim men and women in the Abu Ghraib prison. Where is the sense of honour, where is the rage? Where is the anger for God's religion? Where is the sense of veneration for Muslims, and where is the sense of vengeance for the honour of Muslim men and women in the crusaders' prisons?" Professing himself to be outraged by the absence of Arab outrage at the photos from Abu Ghraib, Zarqawi proceeds with his gruesome remake of the videotaped killing of Daniel Pearl in Pakistan in 2002.

That portion of Zarqawi's repellent message - his claim that people in the Middle East haven't been as shocked by the Abu Ghraib pictures as one might expect - is surely true. For days, there was a feeling of tentative, nervous relief in the United States that the pictures streaming out of Abu Ghraib had not - yet - provoked the wave of uncontrollable and violent popular protest across the Arab world that many Americans had feared. It was suggested that Arabs are so inured to torture in their own countries that they had lost the ability to be shocked by it, also that Iraqi Shia Muslims and Kurds were unlikely to be greatly upset by the sight of Ba'athist Sunnis getting a taste of their own medicine from their western jailers.

Both these quasi-explanations were self-serving shots in the dark. What was clear from reading the English-language Arab press over last weekend was the truth of the old saying: "American viciously humiliates Arab" is not news; only when the terms are reversed are headlines made. To most of the Arab editorial writers, and perhaps to most Arabs, the digital photos merely confirmed what they had been saying since long before the invasion of Iraq took place: America is on an orientalist rampage in which Arabs are systematically denatured, dehumanised, stripped of all human complexity, reduced to naked babyhood.

...........


A chilling story in last Saturday's New York Times made plain that the humiliations depicted in the Abu Ghraib pictures are regularly practised in domestic American prisons. The reporter, Fox Butterfield, dug up examples of hooding, stripping naked and forced sex inflicted by guards in jails in Arizona, Utah, Virginia and Texas. At least two of the American soldiers due to be court-martialled are reservists who are "corrections officers" in civilian life, and it seems likely that in Baghdad they were indulging in sadistic amusements perfected back home in the US. Like Esperanto, dehumanisation is an international language with a universal grammar, and orientalism is one of its local dialects - a distinction that will, unfortunately, be lost on every Arab and Muslim who brings the photos up on his or her computer.

...........

A released detainee, quoted by the New York Times on May 10, says: "I realised [the Americans] came to obliterate a whole society, a whole civilisation" - a thought so old and so commonplace that one might hear it uttered, world-wearily, in any Arab cafe, anywhere across the globe. The questionable truth of the thought hardly matters now: it is so widely believed, so amply, extravagantly confirmed in the grinning face of Lynndie England. "American humiliates Arab" is not news. Unfortunately for us, those - like Zarqawi's al-Qaida franchise - bent on exploiting the injuries of the humiliated know all too well what does make news.

---

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1215375,00.html

and it is interesting to see this:

quote:

---

Lebanon's Shi'ite Hezbollah harshly criticised the beheading and questioned the timing of a "horrible" act which drove the torture of Iraqi prisoners by US-led forces from the headlines.

"Hezbollah denounces this horrible act which does an immense wrong to Islam and Muslims by a group which falsely pretends to follow the precepts of the religion of pardon and essential human values," the party said in a statement.

---

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/13/1084289801959.html

quote:

---

The CIA did not have a trained corps of interrogators until the war on terror began and turned in part to contractors to handle the surge of detainees, including in Iraq. Some of those sent in are now under investigation in prisoner deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. Officials are considering one case as a homicide and have referred it to the Justice Department.

---

http://wire.jacksonville.com/pstories/20040512/2151517.shtml

and if Rumsfeld is going to approve 'torture light' at Guantanomo and hide the prisoners from international scrutiny then what kind of message does that send to the troops guarding prisoners in Iraq?:

quote:

---

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved the use of "harsh" interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay, including stripping detainees naked, making them hold "stress" positions and depriving them of sleep, a Pentagon official has confirmed.

..........

Critics have argued that Mr Rumsfeld's decision to suspend Geneva Convention safeguards for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, and the transfer to Iraq of interrogation techniques used there, helped create the conditions for the Abu Ghraib scandal, even if no order was issued to use torture.

"The despicable actions described in General Taguba's report not only reek of abuse, they reek of an organised effort and methodical preparation for interrogation," Democrat senator Carl Levin said.

According to Senator Levin, an unpublished annexe to the Taguba report stated that "sleep management, sensory deprivation, isolation longer than 30 days and dogs" were described as a "permissible technique for use in the Iraqi theatre" on condition that the commanding general gave approval "prior to employment".


...........

While General Taguba depicted the abuses at the prison as the acts of a few soldiers under a fragmented and inept command, he also said that "they were probably influenced by others, if not necessarily directed specifically by others".

---

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/12/1084289748000.html?from=top5

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A bit off topic..

I have been thinking alot about the issue of Iraq and it's roots, trying to come to conclusion if it is justifying...
I usually tend to stay away from politics and the world afairs, because I feel like I lack information and media is not doing very good job anymore.

so here we go:

I will try to ge through timeline on what happened...

9/11-terrorists attack, claim to be "messangers of god" are Muslims.

The war on terrorism is declared by America and supported by everyone else. ( it appears to be new kind of war) it also seems justifying, because it was stated clear we were going after the terrorists.

The target is Afganistan(appears to be a nation run by leaders calling themself Taliban, who seem to hide terrorists and support their actions)

The invasion begins, Taliban is overthrown, Osama not found. Afganistan is too vast and huge and very difficult to control, alot of money being spend and no result of finding terrorist's leader.

Now so far as I understand, since there was no result at all and alot of money spend, the invasion of Iraq began(not supported by UN and many nation)...why? I am not even sure. The claim was WMD. Not found, next liberating Iraq..not likely happening from what I see, that citized and soldiers are being tortued for "somekind" of information. (over all I do not see anykind of liberation, people in Iraq are not German or Japanese, if we come and fuck everything up, we are suppose to rebuild alot of things there, lots of money. People who live in that nation still have difficults judging from right and wrong, without books, schools, hospitals etc. We can't just be comming and fucking them up removing leaders and leaving the place. Those people cannot do shit.)

Appearently that type of sexual abuse and tortue can easy crack Iraqi people. (just speculating)
And it happens almost in every prison not only few guys.

I still do not understand, why are we in Iraq?
I can only think of Oil...

why else would be we there? spending money and fighting Saddam?
as I understand no one goes to war without expecting somekind of result.

And please people do not confuse Muslims with terrorists...Muslims are very peaceful people, unfortunatly media only caputers a group of dipshits doing stupid shit.
Also keep in mind many of them do not know what the fuck is going on, those peopel have no form of communication, no tv, no radio etc.

I am starting to see the issue highly pathetic.

WS or anyone else help me out here...perhaps I see things inaccuratly
so...correct me on certain things if I appear to be wrong.

More developemts (warning contains discussion of sexually explicit material):

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm

How low is this going to go?

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Hopefully not as low as slicing off people's heads in the name of Allah...

And hopefully not as low as shooting an 8yo girl in the back @ 50m in the name of freedom and democracy...

[edit] Adding a link [/edit]



(Edited by poi on 05-15-2004 16:39)

Ramasax: And do you object to capital punishment in the US?

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Also it appears that mos to fthe people in the jail were released without chagre (as they didn't have much to detain them on in the first place):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/15/wirq15.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/15/ixnewstop.html

Abuse was reported nearly a year ago from another camp in Iraq and nothing was done then:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.prisoner14may14,0,453350.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

And it said on the news that one of the British guys release from Guatanamo bay has said that similar things go on there.

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quote:

---

Suho1004 said:
[Edit: Oh, yeah, I've been meaning to say this for some time now: it's "damned," not "dammed."]___________________________Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | Keeper of the Juicy Bits(Edited by Suho1004 on 05-05-2004 11:12)

---

What if your were stuck between two beaver created structures meant to keep water from flowing, in that case would you be "dammed"?

quote:

---

Emperor said:
And it said on the news that one of the British guys release from Guatanamo bay has said that similar things go on there.

---

And I've seen in the news a representative of the Amnesty Internationnal mentioning similar tortures/violations of the Geneva conventions/abuses/... in the jails of Afghanistan.

I don't think my philophy teacher was wrong when he said that wars revealed both the best and the worse in men. I just think he underestimated the importance of the later.

Furthermore, what I find to be the most disgustive about these videos/information is that they were probably disclosed by Bush political opponents to harm his image. I've quickly read the whole topic, and I haven't seen anybody evocating this possibility. The presidential elections in the United States are coming in a few months. Wouldn't these revelations be the most effective weapon against G. Bush ? Or am I missing something ? Imaginating that without the presidential elections it is possible that nobody would have known about these tortures is sickening me.

The soldiers involved in these tortures are unforgivable, for they are no excuses to this behaviour. And I don't consider much better the people trying to justify their attitude.

----
If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

MS, it's good to hear from you again, it has been a while.

The fact is that these abuses were wrong, period. Nothing changes that fact. What was done was against regulations, army convention, and civilized tradition.

I think you are right about Bush's political opponents being very interested in using this against him to win the election. But it is wrong to say that we would not have known about the scandal if this weren't an election year. The government had already begun investigations into this abuse before it was reported in the press.


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W?s Apology, He was right. Some conservatives are wrong.

I just read this article by Alan Keyes and I agree with it strongly as it relates to the prison abuse scandal.

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Interesting article by Susan Sontag on the wider implciations and problems:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1223130,00.html

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Interesting Articles, both Bugs and Emps...thanks for posting both.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

This backs up everything I have said about what has happened there in Abu Ghraib Prison abusers were 'stupid,' retired intelligence officer says


Especially these parts

quote:

---

Hillebrand is dumfounded by the images of naked and shackled Iraqi detainees emerging from Abu Ghraib. In his view, the accused soldiers violated more than moral and military codes. They applied methods he believes simply do not work.

"I was revolted. I could not believe that individuals were that stupid. It cuts to the core of all that I believe as a soldier and an officer."

---

And this part

quote:

---

Hillebrand said he sanctioned no harsh procedures, and Red Cross officials had regular and open access at Bagram.

But he conceded the two deaths shook up the system.

"A lot of things changed as a result of that," said Hillebrand, who assisted in the investigation of those deaths.

"You will read more about that in the future," he added, declining to elaborate.

In his tenure, Hillebrand said the Bagram facility was geared to extract information in the most efficient, least intrusive way possible. "It was not set up to be pleasant."

But he said it did not resort to brute force or sexual humiliation of the type exposed at Abu Ghraib. He said cameras were banned from interrogation.

Instead, interrogators appealed to detainees' love of family, their ego, or their craving for cigarettes or tea. They were asked the same question over and over. On occasion, they were deprived of sleep.

Hillebrand said he was given the option of using guard dogs to intimidate detainees. "I declined it. It was something I didn't want to do in Afghanistan."

He said he became convinced rough tactics did not make for good intelligence.

"We received detainees that had been roughed up. We found the information they obtained could not be proven.

"I constantly stressed to the troops how important it (interrogation) was. But you've got to do it within the guidelines."

---

The two deaths surprise me, quite frankly...that demonstrates amateur-type torture methods, to gain unreliable information. Incompetence.

This last part I find especially interesting, and supports my thinking on the subject

quote:

---

But based on his experience in Afghanistan, Hillebrand sees a system that failed at multiple levels in Abu Ghraib. He faults Military Police linked with abuse for violating their training, not to mention decency and common sense.

But he suspects elements of military intelligence condoned or encouraged the practices as well.

"You are probably going to find that military intelligence was probably involved at a lower level," Hillebrand said.

"But where were the officer corps? People did not do their jobs. People covered up. I hope those leaders are held accountable for what happened."

Hillebrand fears the United States could pay for this for years.

"This goes against most of the things that are important to an Arab or Islamic male," he said. "If you talk about what would make a great recruiting poster for Osama bin Laden, they've got that."

---

I am really starting to think that this type of behavior did/does have its roots up the chain...the question is, how far?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

However far it goes is however far heads should roll as a result. We will be paying for this for years to come and it has set back our efforts in Iraq considerably.

The only good thing, and unexpected I might add, that has come from it so far is that there are Arab voices actually surprised to see high level US officials being grilled for these abuses. I have heard that in the Arab media you are getting the occasional article asking why US officials are apologizing and being questioned about this incident when that sort of thing would never happen in their own coutries. I think the repeated apologies from the US administration are turning a few heads because honor is such a huge element in the Arab world. I can only hope that more of that realization will have a balancing effect on the revelation of the scandal.

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Zell Miller basically sums up my thoughts on the issue.

quote:

---

Zell Miller (D):
Mr. President, here we go again, here we go again.

Rushing to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Pushing and pulling and shoving and leaping over one another to assign blame and point the finger at America the Terrible.

Lining up in long lines at the microphones to offer apologies to those poor, pitiful Iraqi prisoners.

Of course, I do not condone all the things that went on in that prison, but I for one, Mr. President, refuse to join in this national Act of Contrition over it.

Those who are wringing their hands and shouting so loudly for ?heads to roll? over this seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that someone?s head HAS rolled - that of another innocent American brutally murdered by terrorists.

Why is it? Why is it that there?s more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Why is it that some in this country still don?t get that we are at war? A war against terrorists who are plotting to kill us every day. Terrorists who will murder Americans at any time any place any chance they get.

And yet here we are, America on its knees, in front of our enemy, begging for their forgiveness over the mistreatment of prisoners.

Showing the enemy and the world once again how easily America can get sidetracked and how easily America can turn against it self.

Yes, some of our soldiers went too far with their interrogation tactics and clearly were not properly trained to handle such duty.

But the way to deal with this is with swift and sure punishment, and immediate and better training.

There also needs to be more careful screening of who it is we put in these kinds of sensitive situations.

And no one wants to hear this, Mr. President and I?m reluctant to say it. But there should also be some serious questioning of having male and female soldiers serving side by side in these kinds of military missions.

But instead, I worry that the HWA - the Hand-Wringers of America - will add to their membership and continue to bash our country ad nauseam. And in doing so, hand over more innocent Americans to the enemy on a silver platter.

So I stand with Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma, who stated that he?s ?more outraged by the outrage? than by the treatment of those prisoners.

More outraged by the outrage. It?s a good way of putting it. That?s exactly how this Senator from Georgia feels.

Thank you Mr. President. I yield the floor.

---

http://miller.senate.gov/floor/05-13-04prison.html

Ramasax

Kurt Vonnegut's take on it:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/cold_turkey/

[edit: Ooops already posted here:

"Cold Turkey" by Kurt Vonnegut ]

Its an interesting one - most of Old Europe (Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, etc.) have acted like corrupt power-crazed loons and we have (hopefully) learnt our lesson from it and I suppose its time to let some of the younger nations have a go at making a mess too. In some ways we had hoped that if nothing came from our Imperialist past except the lesson about not letting history repeat itself that was something but it doesn't seem to be turning out quite hat way - I wonder if the withdrawl of the US troops will be used in 'compare and contrast with the Belgian Congo' exercises in future classrooms?

This is also bad:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html

Blunt force trauma to the back of the head leading to death? Anywhere else that would have led to the opening of a potential murder investigation (even if there might be another explanation).

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-25-2004 04:36)

Anyway. back to the point. I hope those people all rot in... wherever people go to rot.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

quote:

---

Xpirex said: Anyway. back to the point. I hope those people all rot in... wherever people go to rot.

---

Hell or the ground, depending on your outlook.

Ramasax

German pupils tried for 'torture'

I'm not going to bother making a "cute" post with this drawing some silly comparison between the prison abuses and this outrage, BUT what I would like to hear is given that there is no war happening in this school, what do you believe "drove" these eleven children to torture the victim?

Earlier in this thread some were of the opinion that war causes people to act in this way, depending on the individual of course, but how is it viewed when the offenders live in an affluent country and are not thrust into a war environment?

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To me, it basically comes down to a total lack of morality and dicipline in modern society. Sure, go ahead and say it DL, morality is better today than ever before. I just can't go with that conclusion. Immorality in the past was less widespread because the means to spread it was not around. There are more negative influences on the minds of children today than ever before.

Nowadays, with all our modern conveniences, immorality spreads like wildfire. Couple that with the lack of discipline due to poor parenting, and this is what you get IMO. It is partly responsible for what happened at Abu Graib, and is responsible for what happened in Germany. The inability to see right from wrong (a rather archaic concept according to many liberals), not enough fear of the consequences, and not enough empathy for others. This is what happens when people are raised by the Internet, video games, hollywood and public schools.

Ramasax

double post...odd.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-25-2004 21:25)

quote:

---

There are more negative influences on the minds of children today than ever before.

---

No doubt. But there are also far more positive influences as well.

I will agree that there seems to be a bit more widespread apathy over the alst few years than there was, say, 30 years ago. But that's a pretty short term reference.

You can't tell me that such things haven't happened at all kinds if times and placaes throughout our past.

In many times/palces such things would have been acceptable, even encouraged.

The thing that sets our time period apart, is that such an act is exposed around the world, so when it happens, everyone knows it. 30, 50, 100, 1000 years ago, nobody outside of a few locals would ever have heard about it, *if* the kid would have ever had the nerve to speak up about it.

We also show how much higher the moral standard is today than in the past purely by the outrage that people react to such things with.

What do I think of it, in comparison with the prisoner abuse? I think it works two ways actually. I think the total lack of any real stimulus to behave this way is rather frightening, and makes things that much more appalling. it makes it a little harder to understand how someone could do such things when compared to someone in a war situation.

On the other hand, the people involved in the prisoner abuse have been explicitly put in positions of authority over other people. They have then taken that authority to horrible extreme and reduced a large number of people to sub-human playthings for their sick amusements.

That still stands as a more appaling factor in comparison to the case you posted. The prisoner abuse was more widespread, more accepted by peers and superiors.

So it's really a bit of a split issue, kind of an 'apples and oranges' situation.

HAHA, yo Ramasax. In the past teenagers murdered for food and money...I doubt this happens nowdays...

No, but they have been known to murder for shoes, drugs, and other less "needed" items. They have also been known to take guns to school and slay their teachers/classmates simply because they felt they had been treated badly. They have also been known to kill their own parents for the same reasons.

Ramasax

Yup. as has been done all throughout history. And worse.

=)

It's all been done before, I agree, I just question the volume.

higher population + modern technology - higher power = Greater volume + worldwide distribution + manmade morality = greater lack of morality in general. Yeah, or something like that.

Ramasax

Bugs, it is an interesting phenomena, and that is not the first time such has been tested...I believe the first one was done in the US after WWII, to show [b]how[b] and why people could follow along in line with genecide.

However, we cannot compare that study, or the findings, with that in Abu Ghraib for several reasons :

Soldiers are not civilians! Soldiers are rigorously trained to be disciplined, to follow orders and must follow regulations and laws that civilians do not have to. Now, in Abu Ghraib, there should have been professionally trained soldiers guarding the prisioners...NOT truck mechanics, etc! Even then, such as what happened at Abu Ghraib is NOT normal behavior for soldiers! Either such was ordered, from higher up on the chain of command, OR discipline broke down in a major way (meaning the abusers where acting without orders, against regulations). The FACT that there are regulations that dictate what one is (and is not) to do, is more than telling here...

Second, the events at Abu Ghraib were more than just "push a button, inflict pain" - soldiers where directly [b]active[/] in administrating the torture - this is a big difference from just pushing a button...one is actually applying the pain, etc physically oneself to the victim! I don't think any study has actually simulated this yet. Laying physical hand on a victim and applying pain, etc is much more difficult, than just pushing a button from a distance, without actually viewing the subject.

Third, Germans are pretty much systematically trained to obey in their society - it is a socialistic system, where difference and non-conformity is really frowned upon and discouraged. Therefore, it really comes as no surprise to me, that not one of them attempted to free the victim, or even refused to apply pain. In the study done in the US, this was NOT the case - there were those who did attempt to do just that. Not all, but some. Thus, some of the "impulse", if you will, boils down to how one reacts in the face of group pressure. I suspect that were the study done in Japan, that the results would be even worse, because that society is trained to be susceptable to group pressure more than any other. It is when group pressure overcomes individual cognizance, that one obtains a result like this. Combine that with a de-humanization of the victim, and one has an environment, where pretty much anything is possible.

Fourth, the events in Iraq (a war, and the fact that Americans had been killed in Action, and after the main conflict, everyday through guerilla tactics) leads up to fustration, feelings of helplessness and rage. Being in a position to let such feelings out, on hapless captives (irregardless of whether or not the captives were really responsible for such events, like killing American soldiers, it is easy in such an environment to ASSUME that they did, or are partly responsible, somehow) is very tempting - only a professional, trained to resist such, will. Therefore, the prisoners at Abu Ghraib should have been guarded by professional MPs the whole time. This appears to not be the case. And since there are regulations and guidelines that clearly outline such, I find it incredulous as a former soldier that these were not upheld.

Irregardless of the why it happened, we cannot change the fact that it has happened. We must concentrate on making sure it doesn't happen again, punishing the guilty, and limiting the damage as best we can.

It really is overdue, to start thinking of a plan of withdrawl, and getting the UN involved, IMHO.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Ramasax - one simple question (I'll address your equation later maybe):

What point in the history of civilization do you think represents our moral high point, and how/why?

DL, you know as well as I that the question you pose is about as impossible to answer as "why are we here?" It is a purely philosophical debate where all answers are based on opinion or belief. There is far too much moral relativism in the world today. What is immoral to me, may not be immoral to my neighbor, and definatly won't always be deemed immoral to those in other civilizations and belief structures.

My basis of morality originates from my belief in Christ and God, so essentially any answer I would give would be based on my "limited viewpoint" and will not be taken seriously by any non-Christian. Hence the dilemma.

You also seem to misunderstand that when I say morality is in decline I speak of volume, in regards to increasing population and the means by which to spread. The more evil there is in the world, due to higher population, the more immmoral the world becomes. Again, what is evil? There is no anchor or standard from which to draw. I understand that horrible things have happened all throughout history, I am not naieve in thinking there was a time when everyone thought with the same moral clarity and all was perfect.

To me, family is a very integral part of society. I think one thing different about our times which emphasizes my opinion that morality is in decline is the continuing decline in the strength of family. The family is strengthened by the love of mother for father and vice versa and there is less and less of this due to the higher strains placed on parents to provide. Generally speaking, parents are too busy. Too busy to love eachother and too busy to guide the minds of their children, which are essentially like sponges.

There are also more broken families now and it is my belief that two parent families can, on average, more easily protect and care for children. Are two parents needed for the socialization of children? Perhaps they are not necessary but it is, on average, easier for two parents to supervise, love, care and guide children than one.

Children are thus less socialized by their parental counterparts and take more to outside and "less-than-moral" ideals which are easily accessable, more so than any other point in history, to our children. Either by the Internet, TV, government intervention, or peers is irrelevent, the negative influences are there. The problem is that the parents are not there to put things into perspective for their children. To tell them what is right and what is wrong. We see this lack of judgement in the headlines every single day.

Now, a few generations down the line with all these people lacking moral clarity only breeds more moral relativism and lack of a moral anchor and the eventual decay of any sense of morality besides that which is deemed moral by the state. Without God or a higher being, we have no anchor, because who is the state to say what is right and wrong, since after all, they are only human.

Now do not get me wrong, I am not saying that if a person is raised improperly they will grow up to be human scum, that depends on the individual. My upbringing was less than perfect and I made out all right. (Don't even say it ) Why? Because I made a choice. Many of my childhood friends who grew up in similar situations are in jail, OD'ed on heroin, or working at the local 7-11 on probation. I took a different path, probably at the time when marijuana was being replaced with cocaine as the drug of choice among my peers. It hurt at the time to break from the pack, but luckily I had the strength of will to do so. It was also about this time when my family life strengthened, and without going into the gory details, suffice it to say we grew together through what I still to this day consider a miracle of God.

The moral highpoint in history? To me that would be the time in history where family was the strongest. Regardless of what governments (the minority) were doing, individual morality comes down to strength of family. Family is what shapes the individual. In my limited timeframe to which I can relate, I would have to say 1950-1960. Family was strong, morals were solid, more than solid, there were absolutes that were not questioned. Then comes the rise of Liberalism, and it has all been downhill from there, IMHO of course. Does that make me a bigot in some people's view, probably. Do I care, not a damn bit.

Sorry if that answer is insufficient, but I suspect any answer I give would deemed as such.

You spoke above of more positive influences for our children today. What are they, and who advocates these so-called positive influences? What you consider a positive influence I may consider negative. I will say with confidence that for a teen in today's world the negative influences far outweigh the positive.

Ramasax

That's a lot to respond to, and I don't have time for it all right now.

The one point I would like to address, is the issue of the 50's. Now, I had no doubt that would be your answer. Why? Because it is a very romaticized time period for many americans. It is a time period in which the american propaganda machine hit its full stride.

Your mind is filled with images of small towns, apple pies, baseball games, good solid american men with their pretty, pleasant american wives, and their freckled little american children all smiling gooberishly while riding in their nice big american car.

You picture solidarity, sobriety, charity, goodwill.

You picture these things primarily because of propaganda. You picture these things because the media was limited in its ability to show the negative side of thingts, and because the american public had less interest in learning about the negative side of things.

A great number of horrible things were quite common place, but they were hushed away, swept under the rug. Rape, alcoholism, child abuse, etc, were quite common, but were in large part simply ignored.
And that doesn't even begin to touch the issues of racially motivated murder, arson, torture, rape, etc. That's an issue too large for this post.

In a lot of ways, the very things you claim cuase a lower morality are actually only the things which now show us more of what low morality is out there.
Personally, I would rather know than hide it away and pretend it doesn't happen.

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To me that would be the time in history where family was the strongest.

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Hmmm...this would be, for my people, before you Europeans came, and wiped out our families, our traditions, took our land, and enslaved us. Of course, we are supposed to be "grateful" for our "liberation" from barbarism...and embrace "advanced culture" - of which we are not allowed to participate, especially not in the '50s.

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Without God or a higher being, we have no anchor, because who is the state to say what is right and wrong, since after all, they are only human.

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I disagree. I believe, that without this programming, we have the most solid of anchors...ourselves, and only ourselves to count on. I used to rely on a "Greater Being" taking responsibility for my actions, and proscribing for me how to live - I found a better way. I accepted responsibility for myself. After that, I found that I did not need the concept of a "Greater Being" to guide me.

Most things taught by the different Religous Faiths as Rules for Mankind to live by, are self-evident, really, for the functioning of a social, stabile environment. Do good to others. Pretty obvious, isn't it? Be honest...also obvious. Respect your environment...only too obvious.

In fact, anyone following such rules inside, has a much easier time, applying the responsibility for their own lives. Not having a core of rules to follow, is where things start to break down, on that, I agree. My people believe, that a combination of information, handed down from Parent to child, combined with the experienced gained through Trials, are what leads to a solid, self-aware individual. Through my experiences, I can only concur. This "Ur-Religion", if you will, I think is a very effective method of creating the Rules that one needs to accept responsibility for one self. I do not think that the various Religons, in the way that they have now grown to becoming Institutions, allow this. Instead, they have grown into huge, weighty clogs on thinking, on learning. About Life.

Because Life is a unique experience for every individual, there is no one way, for everyone. Instead, there are a myriad of ways (as myriad as each one of us), with some common connections, ideas, experiences, that create a whole.

I have never witnessed the intervention of a "Greater Power" for me, or in my stead. Nor have I witnessed this for someone else. In every instance, the individual themselves had to pull themselves through, irregardless of what that particular individual believes to the contrary. This is what Nature shows us, what it teaches us. Sometimes, other individuals help one another, on small, or large scales. Why? Because it fosters the same behavior in others, which in turn may prove helpful sometime in the future, when in need.

In the war, I saw some of the basic, underlaying "cruelty", if you will, of this - there was no rhyme or reason, to who got killed, targeted, stepped on a landmine, etc. There was no "invisible hand" safeguarding some, and not others. Occasionally, as if by miracle, someone survived something that stretched the limits of credibility. However, they often were not "protected" the next time...so if this is really intervention of a "Greater Power", why so capricious?

I never witnessed any violations of the Laws of Physics in the war. None. Nor have I heard of anyone that did. Soldiers that got injured, or killed, did so because of the Laws of Physics - i.e. bullits, or explosions physically damaged their bodies beyond repair.

In short, there was no evidence that God(s), Greater Being(s), etc, were present. None, whatsoever. Instead, there were just individuals, trying to stay alive, follow their orders, and protect their comrades, and kill the enemy. I may not have personally liked my comrade(s), but I needed them, to protect my back. The same went for them. It forged us together, into something greater than our individual selves. It was often, that when this did not work, that someone got killed, or hurt. One could actually "see" such groups, in the art and fashion that they dealt with one another on a routine basis. Some groups clearly demonstrated this "melting together", and some didn't. Those that didn't, had higher casualty rates in comparison to those who did under the same circumstances. This demonstrates, to me, that having abilities that encourage group behavior, is far more desirable, than the opposite, for survival and success.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-27-2004 13:43)

Seems like the investigation is going all the way to the top:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/13/wguan13.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/13/ixworld.html

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