Topic awaiting preservation: A Formal Debate on the Iraq War

Well, base on A Warmonger Explains War to a Peacenik I propose that we solve this with a Formal Debate.

Based on these comments

quote:

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Of course, it's easy summing up the very worst of one side and pitting it against the more thoughtful end of the other side.

I truly hate these delusional little tidbits that people continuously feel compelled to write.

I wish they would realize that all it does is belittle the the true differences, and hence belittles the real arguments for not going to war.

(much like that whole 'science vs. religion' one, and so many others out there....)

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and

quote:

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Both sides do this. I have friends forward me very similar things with an opposite spin all the time.

I think it would be interesting to take many of the points mentioned above and use them to identify the more legitimate points on both sides of the debate over the war.

I would very much like to see a debate where the best arguments of both sides are matched head to head. That would be a debate that people could really benefit from I should think.

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Let's have a Formal Debate!

The Rules (dug up from the past!)

Debate will consist of five people.

Two people will be on one side of the arguement (team A) and two people will be on the other side (team B).

One person will act as impartial moderator.

These five people will be the only ones to post in the debate thread. A companion thread may be started for folks who want to comment on what is going on, though.

The debate topic should be clear and the participants should make every effort to stick to the topic. Any digressions should have a purpose relevant to the topic.

The participants should commit themselves to seeing the debate through to the end. However, time allowances should be made for real-life interventions. (I would love to participate in the debate, but can?t guarantee I will be stopping in every day.)

A thread will be created, to allow Members to express which side they would like to debate, and in the case that there are more than 4 Participants total, a decision will have to be made on the number/participants in a team.

then a Peanut Gallery will be set up (a thread) for comments on the ongoing Debate.

Rules for the Peanut Gallery -

All comments/compliments/opinions/questions should be asked/stated here please.

Try to be respectful to the debaters, no flaming or verbally asaulting them, respect their opinions too!

Slimies are aloud, but because these threads tend to get long (we went through 4 on the last one) I ask that you do not post your graphic sigs (taglines are acceptable) to keep the filesize down to a minimum.

So...how much interest is there? Post away here if you are interested...

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Imperial thumbs up on this - its been too long since we dusted off our sparring gloves

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

I'll repeat here, just in case it was missed elsewhere:

I'm in.

Hmm... very tempting... hmm...

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C'mon Bugs...I'll join, if you do!

The World will be watching...

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Come on, Bugs.

For the sake of all the young'uns who have never seen us run...

you gotta
You just gotta!

as one of the people that is probably being refered to as a young'un I would very much like to see yo get into this Bugimus because you seem to me a very capable speaker and I admire you for saying your feelings without polishing it up with political correctness.

Believe me, I very much would like to join this one. But I am going to be very busy during July and August so I'm a little worried about that. I am also interested to see who else might show interest in participating to get a better feel for the teams. Is anyone else interested in this one?

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Bring out your dead! Bring out your....heh.

Whoops!

Ok, sound off! Who wants to debate Iraq? C'mon...we need debate partners here!!!!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Bugs, would it help if I started calling you a chicken?

A pre-emptive strike of sorts? LOL!!!

I'm basically in as long as my schedule over the next two months will not jepoardize the debate. It may take me longer to respond in some cases. But I think we really need some more partners to pop up to do this right.

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WS need a team mate count me in

Tom, I'd be more than honored to be on a team with you.

It is more that pleasant to hear that you can make it, Bugs. Anyone willing to team up with Bugs? He is one damn good debater.

And we need a Referee - who is up for that?

C'mon people - this is your chance to become famous!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Well, if no one else will take the challenge, I'll participate.

Ramasax

Oooooooooo does that sound like we have two teams??

In the antiwar corner: WS and Tom (the former soldiers? Interesting)

In the pro-war corner: Bugs and Ramasax (my wishlist for the pro-war corner)

And in time honoured fashion:

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUMMMMMMMMBLE!!!!!

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

(Edited by Emperor on 06-26-2004 14:41)

Hold on a second there, mobrul was the first to sign up for this thing.

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I wasn't aware that mobrul was on the pro side. Seems Emps was under the same impression. I'll happily step aside if that's the case.

Ramasax

I seriously doubt mobrul is on the pro side, Ram.

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quote:

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Bugimus said:

Hold on a second there, mobrul was the first to sign up for this thing.

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Ooops well spotted

So is it WS as impartial observer and Tom and mobrul as the anti team?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

or maybe morbrul as the moderator?

either way i dont mind i was kinda hoping to team up with ws on this though

Or maybe we can try 3 asylumites per team?

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hehe, might be hard pressed to find another member for the pro team.

If you guys decide to go up to three asylumites per team I'd like the opportunity to join Bugs and Ramasax if no one else has already asked. While I'm anti-war, I think I'd like the opportunity to research the opposite perspective and try to make a compelling case.

Of course, for a topic that has been immensely popular, should we limit participation to just 2 or 3? Obviously the lower the number the more smoothly the process would go but whats the fun in order?

"My father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else's mantle or pretend to be anybody else. I don't know what's wrong with these people -- they have to keep invoking him. It is their administration, their war. If they can't stand on their own two feet, they're no Ronald Reagans, for sure." - Ronald P. Reagan.

Jestah welcome in

well it looks like this if everyone is ok with it

Antiwar team

morbrul
webshamen
tomeaglescz

prowar team

bugismus
jestah
ramasax

awaiting a volunteer for moderating it.... (unless i saw emp's hand waving in the back of the room)

this should be a great way to bring back the formal debates

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

WOOOOOHOOOOOO!

Ok...who's modding? Huh? Speak up!

We are *this close* to another Formal Debate!

C'mon Emps...you know you want to!

I officially welcome and praise the membes on my team, Morbrul and Tom! Nice to have you both on board!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Hey. Gone for a weekend and almost replaced. Thanks, Bugs, for speakin' up.
I'm ready...been doing my preliminary research and have a basic battle plan lined up.

It's an honor to be opposed by three men as well written and intelligent as you three.
And, of course, I could not have picked better teammates on my own.

With formalities out of the way, let's have fun.

quote:

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WebShaman said:

WOOOOOHOOOOOO!

Ok...who's modding? Huh? Speak up!

We are *this close* to another Formal Debate!

C'mon Emps...you know you want to!

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Sorry - no can do.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

i'll mod if we need someone. i'm not necessarily impartial on the subject but would have no problem appearing to be for a bit

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Ok looks like sides are drawn and we have a mod in place

So for subjects! (relevant to the theme)

please add suggestions to subject theme (ie those based on the last war in iraq)

1. Can the use of force against a sovereign nation who has not invaded another ever be justified.
2. IS it legal to replace a government by the use of force (ie war) because it's current leadership (dictatorship)doest offer it's citizens the same rights as are acceptable by our standards.
3. Is it justifiable to invade a country and replace it's leadership because we dont think its current leadership is acceptable by our standards.
4. Is it justifiable to invade a country dismantle (or destroy) its military capabilities and replace it's leadership because of a concieved threat (ie not 100% proven).

these are just a few ideas based on comments from previous threads on this topic....

remember the topic should form a question to which both parties should provide an argument, this should be based on facts, logic, or experience.

BUT above all lets keep it polite and respectful, and I know this one will be very heated, so lets avoid flame wars in the peanut gallery and here. (emps or any other mad sci's please take time to drop in now and then and mod the peanut gallery in case of "Over enthusiatic responses )

anyway over to you guys...

(Edited by tomeaglescz on 06-28-2004 19:13)

5. What constitutes a "conceived threat"?


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I think some of those topics might be a bit too specific. We might be better off with a broader theme such as "Was the war in Iraq justifiable?" With the broader theme we can be free to address the issues in any way we choose. Just my thoughts.

"My father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else's mantle or pretend to be anybody else. I don't know what's wrong with these people -- they have to keep invoking him. It is their administration, their war. If they can't stand on their own two feet, they're no Ronald Reagans, for sure." - Ronald P. Reagan.

Fig: for example WMD (there wasnt 100% proof but the war was initiated on the pinciple that he might have them) !!!! And that saddam might use them or sell them if he had them.....


Jestah good point, however with the wide and varied arguments one could use in this it would leave much too much still open to argument, maybe mine were too narrow, but as i suggested these were only ideas....


just my 0.2c (for whats it is worth...not much i know )

I tend to lean more toward the broad questions (Jestah's) than the narrower ones (Tom's).

Looking at Tom's questions, one could answer yes to every one of them, but still oppose the war in Iraq.
Or, one could answer no to everyone of them, believe Iraq DID invade someone else (q #1) and there was a 100% absolute threat (q #4) and thus believe the war was justified.

Narrow questions, unless very carefully crafted, could obscure the nuiances of some of our opinions.

I think it would be much safer to go with broader questions.

broad questions may be a better way to go, we can just start with "Was the U.S. justified in going to war wtih Iraq?", pick a side to start, and go from there.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I'm interested to see you guys all go at it. I enjoy reading the debates...
How 'bout this for a topic?

"Did Iraq under Saddam Hussein present a real threat to the security of the US people, and did the US Government properly inform and justify the invasion of Iraq to the US people and the world? Have the actions taken and information gained by the US Government to date been successful in supporting the US decision to invade? How so?"

Tryin' to be broad, but also to provide some structure to the answers... simply questioning the justification of the war itself leaves things wide open...

I tend to favor the broad topics too. I recall the first two debates:

Does God Exist?

Should Drugs Be Legal?

Those were both very broad in scope and the debates seemed to come out pretty well.

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We also might not want to limit this to the United States. A threat to one of our neighbors or partners in the international community might be sufficient reason to go to war without formally being threatened.

I don't see structure being a problem here. The six of us have been fairly vocal about this war in these forums so I suppose I can guess with a fair amount of confidence what everyone is going to talk about.

"My father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else's mantle or pretend to be anybody else. I don't know what's wrong with these people -- they have to keep invoking him. It is their administration, their war. If they can't stand on their own two feet, they're no Ronald Reagans, for sure." - Ronald P. Reagan.

I prefer the broad range, but whatever you guys all decide on is fine with me. I don't think I was ever in on an actual 'formal' debate here, so is there anything I should know? (besides of course civility) Do we all just post separately or are we expected to confer with our team members either by email/chat to try and keep a lot of arguments from being restated?

Ramasax

I've never done it either but I would suggest staying in contact with our team members just so we don't repeat the same things over and over again. Plus, at the very least, it could be a good way to come up with some good, useful information. I imagine the rules are some place in either the archives or the FAQs. I'll do a search and see what comes up.

"My father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else's mantle or pretend to be anybody else. I don't know what's wrong with these people -- they have to keep invoking him. It is their administration, their war. If they can't stand on their own two feet, they're no Ronald Reagans, for sure." - Ronald P. Reagan.

Debate: rules, topics, sign-up
Who would like to start a "formal" debate?
It's that time for another debate!

Well, there we have it.

Edit: It might be a lot of fun for this to be a re-occurring activity. Maybe, to help sharpen the mind and present a broad range of opinions, we can do an official formal debate once a month or so and formal debates in general whenever a topic is worthy.

(Edited by Jestah on 06-29-2004 02:42)

One thing about this one is that I suspect it may go a bit long. Judging by the last two debates, it takes a while for participants to craft their responses. I think WS can speak to that because he and I put a lot of work into the Does God Exist one.

I mentioned earlier that my schedule during the next two months is going to be very busy. I will make my posts but I can't guarantee the timing.

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Bugs has the low-down on length and responses. To do the Formal Debate any sense of Justice, it is imperative that the debating members take time putting their responses together.

Does God Exist? was one hell of a debate, as I recall. I am looking forward to this one.

Jester, we tried to get the Formal Debate going on a somewhat regular basis, but it almost died out due to lack of participants. We can't always have the same members debating one another!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

how about

"was the us led coalition justified in its war with iraq and their subsequent operations to date according to international law"

or

"can a war with a country which has taken no agressive acts against us ever justified"

I prefer the General, to the specific, personally.

How about The Iraq War II, pro or con?

Or

Reasons for/agaisnt the Iraq War II?

Terms like "justifiable", evil, good, negative, positive are really subjective here, and would have to be agreed upon before hand, to give all a fair chance, I feel.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Tom, do you have an email address? I figured it would be nice for the three of us to discuss a little strategy before diving in.
WS, the address in your profile is current, yes?

Yes, my E-Mail address is correct.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

But how come this isn't? http://www.nullinterrupt.de/

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How about: "Do you agree with the War in Iraq? Why?"

That should be broad enough to allow everyone to run their own course yet narrow enough to keep everything confined to the central parts of this debate. It's also an easy to answer question with little subjectivity in it.

Edit: I should probably get rid of the anti-war quote from R. Reagan Jr.

(Edited by Jestah on 06-29-2004 17:55)

Good idea, Jestah You need to dress the part now that you've joined the dark side

So who's moderating? Is it going to be the FigMeister?

This all makes me wonder what Beekay is up to these days. He was the one who got this formal debate thingy off the ground originally. Anyone seen him around?

Ramasax and Jestah, it would seem that we ought to confer a bit via email if the other team has already begun strategizing.

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i'm in for modding, just let me know what our projected start date is, who's kicking and who's receving

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Have we decided on a topic question yet?

According to BeeKay's rules for the Formal Debate the moderator, in this case Fig, creates a new thread with the question. I think there has been enough submissions for the topic question for everyone to voice their opinions on it. Perhaps we can give Fig authority to finalize the topic question. Next, we need to decide which team is going to go first. I think its more approriate for the pro-war side to start things off. Of course thats open to debate.

Also, this is going to take time. Bugimus has already stated that he's going to be busy for the next few weeks and I'm going to Cancun on the 10th - where I can assure you I will be doing no work. I'll be back in a week though. Rather then rushing this and doing a piss poor job, why don't we decide to star things when we're ready? In the meantime we can talk amongst ourselves and figure out exactly what we're going to do.

Bugimus & Ramasax, I'll be emailing you two with the email address available in your profiles. I saw there was an alternative one on your resume Ramasax so check your Yahoo account if you don't do so regularly

I'm ok with the topic...great call, Jester.

Sorry Bugs...that old site went down...*shrugs*

I may end up putting a new Web site sometime in the future...we shall see.

Ok...unless someone has an objection to the Topic, LET'S get ready to RUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMBBBBLE!!!!!!

*nudges Fig* Psst! That's your cue, man!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 06-30-2004 12:24)

got it, i will post official debate and peanut gallery threads this afternoon. pro-war folks, you get the ball first.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I like the topic: "Do you agree with the War in Iraq? Why?"

That should provide adequate maneuvering room for all.

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morbrul tom@logicalint.com will get hold of me

Woooohooooo! The Formal Debate LIVES again!!!!!!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

and we're off...

Formal Debate: "Do you agree with the war in Iraq?"

Peanut Gallery: "Do you agree with the war in Iraq?"