Topic awaiting preservation: The Gospels of Peace

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Gospels Of Peace - After this manner, therefore, pray to your Heavenly Father: Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

"And after this manner pray to your Earthly Mother: Our Mother which art upon earth, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, and thy will be done in us, as it is in thee. As thou sendest every day thy angels, send them to us also. Forgive us our sins, as we atone all our sins against thee. And lead us not into sickness, but deliver us from all evil, for thine is the earth, the body, and the health. Amen.

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I don't really know much about this, but I was wondering if any one knew any info about these being fake, or any thing like that. I searched a bit on Google and didn't really find any thing talking about how they were fake. It seems to me if someone was claiming to have found documents in the Vatican, and they were lying, the Vatican would come out against them. I was wondering if anyone knows more about this...

Anyway, if these are true, it seems Jesus gives a lot of credit to Mother Earth, a lot more than what is given in the bible, and I was just wondering what Christians had to say about all this stuff. It certainly is interesting. Especially some of the details of his healing people which the text contains. And his solutions for healing, which are more like doctor recommendations, or I should say Medicine Men recommendations. Anyway, this whole Essene thing is really interesting (though all their webpages seem to be crappy), and I thought some of you might find it interesting also.


< Ozone Quotes >

(Edited by Gilbert Nolander on 08-11-2004 14:37)

Ok, when I read that I thought it was from the "politically correct" Bible, but now that I have been to the web site, I have learned more. It is very interesting. The whole thing, though, is not affiliated with Christianity, so far. I have been reading, and I have found it entertaining, but for the most part very speculative. Like cutting the edges of a puzzle to make them fit. I will read more later, but it isn't Christianity. More like a Karma thing mixed with hippies mixed with Jewish customs. I find a lot of it hilarious. They have totally botched the whole reason Jesus came to Earth and died. It is very sad. I hope you don't believe it.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

What do they say about why Jesus came to Earth to die, I cound't find anything on it, I have mainly read thru some of the Gospels of Peace and find them very intriguing? And they claim to be Christians, or rather "real" Christians. They say that modern Christians are the ones who are confused and they also feel very sad for you and your confusion.

Also, what makes you so sure you are right about why Jesus came to Earth and died?

More on the discovery of the Gospels of Peace from Book Two intro.

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It was in 1928 that Edmond Bordeaux Szekely first published his translation of Book One of The Essene Gospel of Peace, an ancient manuscript he had found in the Secret Archives of the Vatican as the result of limitless patience, faultless scholarship, and unerring intuition. This story is told in his book, The Discovery of the Essene Gospel of Peace, published in 1975. The English version of Book One appcared in 1937, and ever since, the little volume has traveled over the world, appearing in many different languages, gaining every year more and more readers, until now, still with no commercial advertisement, over a million copies have been sold in the United States alone.

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*on a side note, I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve any of this stuff, just that it is out there and rather interesting, especially if the Gospels of Peace are real, and were really found in the vatican.

Ok, first off, if they believe that the discliples were right, the people who spent the most amount of time with Jesus, then the religion they have is bogus. There are always going to be people out there that believe things that aren't true, can't be proven, or are just using coincidences. What they say is entertaining, and sounds more like Hinduism (I think that's right) than Christianity. I don't like the web sites either. It is like they have something to hide. They don't say where they got their info, and they don't have anyone to a-mail or im to talk to. I just have a hard time believing that a lot of it is true. About all that they have right is that Jesus walked the Earth. I am sorry if I sound mean or biased, but from every stand point the stuff they preach about on that web site is not Christian, merely a Jewish/Hindu cult.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

The real Jesus Christ came out of a need we have. We are all sinners and are in need of salvation. No one person can say that they haven't sinned. And the penalty of sin is death (total separation from God). We are all sinners, we do evil things. If you have stolen, wanted something that is not yours, thought some one was sexy, or been angry towards someone, then you have sinned (not including big ones like murder, fornication, etc.). Anyone with sin cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. That is where Jesus comes in. It isn't something based on deeds. It is not something you can do. This is purely God's grace that saves you. Jesus died, so that you can live. He forfitted His life for you and me. But, that isn't the end. After the third day (He predicted this over and over), He rose from the grave showing that He was God. He then spoke to various people for 40 days and then rose up into Heaven to be at His Father's right hand. But, that still isn't the end of the story! He has sent a messenger to those who have been saved. When you open the door to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and guides you through your life. Jesus also comes and holds you up in times of need, and gives you a shoulder to cry on. He is always there to help you in the darkest times of your life, with the only request that you remember Him when you are blessed for following Him. That is what Christianity is all about. Being personal with God Himself. It isn't about being holier than anyone else, or having life be easier. It is about living with Jesus, and being faithful to Him. It may be dangerous to start, but He won't let go when you hold onto Him. That is what Christianity is all about.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

I understand what Christianity is all about, and the only reason I put a link to the Essene webpage was because they are the ones who follow the "Gospels Of Peace". I thought the Gospels of Peace were interesting, not the Essene webpage, maybe I should of been more clear on this.

Anyway, what you are saying is good and fine. I was mainly asking why it is that Christianity, as a whole, seems to not really talk about the importance of Mother Earth, and looks as the whole aspect of Mother Earth as being sort of mythological or something for "Pagans".

And I was also wondering if anyone found any links dis-proving the Gospels Of Peace, or proving that they were false. The Essene webpage, their ideologies, or beliefs about Christianity, Hinduism, or Judaism do not really matter to me. I think that their is truth in every religion, or else the religion would not be perpetrated by people. Why would people believe in something that they though was false? Sure you may think a particular religion is false, but that does not mean it is, and that certainly does not mean that people who believe other religions besides Christianity are going to hell, no matter how Christians interpret the bible. It is true that Christians, like all other religious people, believe that their religion is the true path, and I will not say that it is. I am a supporter and believer in Christianity, but I am also a believer in Buddhism, Shamanism, Hinduism, Islam, Scientology, and any other religion, small, large, strange, unorthodox, or anything else for that matter. Here is a link to a page with info on various religions.

Oh yea, here is a Contact from an Essene webpage - bishop (at) essene (dot) com


< Ozone Quotes >

Ok, yeah, the Gospels of Peace are different. The web site is wierd, though. As for "Mother Earth" Christians believe that the Earth was made by God, not the other way around. The Earth is a thing that we live on, like a house, a car, a job. It isn't a living God. That is one difference.

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Gilbert Nolander said:

And I was also wondering if anyone found any links dis-proving the Gospels Of
Peace, or proving that they were false.

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Just go to any Christian web site...
Here is a really far strung together one, so I won't base my argument on it. Jesus uses a metaphor in Matthew 5:13 about how men are the salt of the earth. How would Jesus know what salt does if He didn't eat meat? Meat was preserved in those days by cooking all the juices out like jerky. Then, to make the meat taste good again, they would add salt. Also, Jesus talks about the coming Kingdom. They also said that He was from Nazareth, the "North Essenes". Here is a quote from scripture written by Matthew, one of the disciples the Essenes like.

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4:22
And all were speaking well of Him, and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips; and they were saying, "Is this not Joseph's son?"
4:23
And He said to them, "No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, `Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.' "
4:24
And He said, "Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown.
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"But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;
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and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
4:27
"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian."
4:28
And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;
4:29
and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.
4:30
But passing through their midst, He went His way.
4:31
And He came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and He was teaching them on the Sabbath;

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This shows that in Nazareth, where the Essenes think they loved Him, they actually tried to kill Him! But, now that He has raised from the dead (which they don't believe by the way) and His disciples including Paul have made a large church, now they want to claim that they knew from the start that it was Him.

Also about liking other religions and Christianity, that is very dangerous. For almost all other religions it is okay. Not for Judeo-Christianity. Here is a quote from Matthew.

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Matthew7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

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Also

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John14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

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You see, that is the problem with going after many religions at once. Jesus said that He is the only way. You can either believe Him or not. You can walk in light or darkness, you are either for Christ or against Him. There is no middle ground. You can either accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and live an eternity with Him, or not...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Matthew7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"

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That to me means that just because you say you follow the lord, if you do not follow the morals of God, you will not get into Heaven. To me, any religious person, regardless of their religious affilition, who is true to the common laws of life (You know don't murder and stuff like that) will be fine.

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John14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

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Maybe this just means that once people get to Heaven, they will realize that they only got there because Jesus died for the sins of humaity. It doesn't necessarily mean, or say, that people of different faiths can not go to Heaven. It just says that he is the way that people get to go to Heaven.

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You can either accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and live an eternity with Him, or not...

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This is the thing about Christianity that I have a problem with. What this basically means is that you can go against the ten commandments your entire life, and suddenly find out you have terminal cancer, convert over and believe that Jesus is your lord and Savior and get to go to Heaven. I just don't see how God and Jesus could of created such a system. That is why I think that Jesus meant that once we die, if we were holy and lived a good life, we will learn that we are getting to go to Heaven because of his sacrifice for humanity, regardless of our faith or personal beliefs. I just find it hard to believe that God would not let some Indian Yogi Master who spent half his life in silent devout meditation into heaven.


< Ozone Quotes >

(Edited by Gilbert Nolander on 08-13-2004 20:43)

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Gilbert Nolander said:

What this basically means is that you can go against the ten commandments your
entire life, and suddenly find out you have terminal cancer, convert over and
believe that Jesus is your lord and Savior and get to go to Heaven. I just don't
see how God and Jesus could of created such a system.

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Well, if the person was really sorry about what they did then yes. That is the beauty of Jesus. The only thing is that God says over and over is

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Deuteronomy 6:16
Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

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He also reiterates that against the Devil in

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Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

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So, the old man who was against Jesus all his life has a slim chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven because he is not pure in his intentions. He just wants to get out of the trouble he has wrot. You cannot go through your life thinking that after you have experienced the world you can just ask Jesus into your life and then be free. You can't put it off until you are done with all the physical lusts of the world. I'm trying to convince a friend of that right now. Just because you want a "get out of jail free" card, doesn't mean Jesus will give you one. Jesus says

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Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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He said that unless you know Him, and have a good relationship with Him, and do the will of His Father, He will not intercede for you on the day of judgement. Ultimately, though, He wants to intercede for everyone. He cannot do that, though, unless you knew Him and had a good relationship with Him. That is why, even if the old man with a tumor really did sin against every single commandment, and then some, he would still enter the Kingdom if he truly was sorry. It says in

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Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

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That means that the pure of heart shall see God in the Kingdom. Since God is sin free and despises evil, He doesn't want anyone not with a pure heart anywhere near Him. So, Even though that guy sinned a great deal, someone who only sinned once has the same chance of entering Heaven as he. The thing is that we all sinned, and out of that sin came a need. That need was fulfilled by Christ. Christ washes our heart clean and pure again with His own Holy Blood. He makes us like a child again pure and innocent. As He said:

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Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

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So unless you humble yourself and get washed by His Blood, you can't get into Heaven. You are right about this:

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Gilbert Nolander said:

they will realize that they only got there because Jesus died for the sins of
humaity.

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True. The Bible says so:

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Philippians 2: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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You see, every tongue will eventually confess that Jesus is Lord and savior. Even the Devil's tongue. But, that doesn't mean the Devil is going to Heaven. Nor does that mean all "good" people are going to heaven.

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John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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People won't enter Heaven just by "being good", they must "believeth in Him". They must know Him, not just "be good". And Jesus said in John 14:6 that He was the only way into Heaven. Not that Hinduism or Buddism or Sattanism gets you into Heaven, but He does. All you have to do is get there "through Him". It doesn't say get there and say,"oh, yeah, so they were right." No, it means that the only way is through Him.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 08-14-2004 05:31)

Interesting.

I guess it's my turn. kind of busy... But I have this so far.

So what exactly does it mean to believe?
This has also always confused me some.
I mean, I believe that Jesus existed and I believe that he believed that he died for our sins, but I've always been kind of confused about what it actually means to believe.

More and more questions. Don't get me wrong, I love giving people the truth, and showing them the straight path, but answer me this question: Why can't people in this day and age just accept salvation? Are people too paranoid from all the television shows? Are they afraid of the committment? Why don't people now want to live and die by their beliefs? I'm just sad. Maybe it is the fact that some people are sheep and try to kid (no pun intended) thierselves into thinking they are lions? I don't know, but enough of my ramblings, you have questions, and your soul needs answers. Well, I unfortunatly can't answer them at the present time. Don't get me wrong I still think your questioning soul has a lot of worth, I just don't have time at the present to answer the questions (how was I supposed to know that the teachers were going to give so much home work the first day?). Well, from the way things look you may not get any answers until the weekend. Again I am very sorry, I just don't have time.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Gideon said:

...answer me this question: Why can't people in this day and age just accept salvation?

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2+2=3 Why can't you accept that? There is a logical process that you know leaves you with the sum of 4, not 3. The same can be true for acceptance of salvation. Why can't many people accept their salvation? A logical process is there in the form of science, not religion. Religion has been used as a tool to explain the unexplainable and as the unknown becomes common knowledge, people begin to question other things. In this case, religion. Many factors affect the rate of acceptance, people use to be publicly ridiculed for questioning the Bible, that is not seen as readily today. Technology has also made information on the missing books and other biblical inconsistencies widely known. Today's average person also has a busy, yet nonstructured lifestyle that does not allot much time for religious endeavors.

Ambrosius
"Be only as humble as your talents require." -Oscar Levant

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Gideon - Why can't people in this day and age just accept salvation?

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Why can't people in this day and age just question salvation, and the interpretation that people have of what exactly salvation is? How can you be so sure that you are not being mis-led by a fantasy story created by a governement that wishes to control you. Or by an alien race that is claiming to be your God so it can trap your soul in the afterlife. I know these are far-fetched, and probably quite rediculous, but how do you know? You don't know. And to claim that you know the truth, and that all other people are sadly confused into thinking they are lions when they are sheep is quite ridiculious. Anyone who thinks they know the 'truth' are usually far from the truth, but unaware of it. There is no truth. Truth is different for every individual person alive. Sure, you may say, their are universal truths, but even this is not true. Because your universal truths are probably different from someone living in a jungle in Africa, or in a large city in India. Sure their universal truths may seem false to you, but to them they are true. If every individual has a different set of universal truths, how can there really be universal truths?

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Gideon - you have questions, and your soul needs answers.

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Yes, this is true, my soul does have questions. And I will continue to search for the answers to those questions until the day I die (unless of course I figure it all out :-). And I intend to search everywhere, not just in the bible, which may or may not be truly written by somone or something claiming to be my God. I'm not saying I don't believe in God, I do...I just have a hard time believing that the God of the bible is the true God, and the more I read of the bible, the more I agree that he is not truly the God of creation. I think he is a fake, a fraud, a controller...of course I may be wrong and I am even un-sure of my thoughts on this...but I also know that no God, who is the true creator of everything, would ever judge me for thinking this, like 'some' Christians seem to feel so happy to do. I guess that 'some' Christians though, do not think they are judging any one when they say "You are going to hell" they are just basing it off of what is said in the bible, but don't you think that God, whose name the bible is written in, may have loop-holes? Or perhaps certain things were mis-translated, or are mis-understood by our primitive, un-Godly understanding of what the bible, or any other spiritual book means. How are we, as simple humans, to understand the full power of God, or to ever begin to understand the words of Jesus, the son of God, and to say definititly that the meaning of a certain phrase he said is the 'truth' and that any other way of translating it is, apparently, not the 'truth'. I just don't see how you can be so sure, that's all.

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Ambrosius - Technology has also made information on the missing books and other biblical inconsistencies widely known.

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That is a very good point. For instance, where exactly was Jesus born?


< Ozone Quotes >

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Then, to make the meat taste good again, they would add salt

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Though this is a small issue unrelated to the topic at hand, this irks me to the point that I have to address it.

Salt itself is a preservative, and is also an essential part of life for humans, animals, and some plants.

Meat would be dried very often by coating it heavily with salt, which draws out the moisture. It would not be "cooked" and then flavored later with salt to make it taste good.

Salt was used in the preservation of mummies.

Salt was used for very many things, and in very many ways. Jesus, or anyone else, would not need to eat meat to know of the importance and versaitlity of salt.

Salt is so important that it has been the cause of many many wars throughout human history.

That's true DL, I didn't even bother bringing it up besides it figured it would side-track the issue at hand, what-ever that is....I'm a bit lost now...

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Gideon - How would Jesus know what salt does if He didn't eat meat?

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That seems to not be giving the Messiah very much credit. I mean he is God's son and all...

I was refering to the Essenes belief of Jesus. I'm pretty sure that He ate meat, considering that He gave five thousand men and thier families fish. I was just trying to prove that the Essenes have a little more to learn about thier Messiah.
Ok, and now to the topic on hand. I am sorry that I have been away so long. My teacher decided to dump a ton of writing on me. I apologize that I didn't answer yours questions. It was also very selfish of me to ask questions of my own when you are in need, I am sorry.
As to your questions:

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Gilbert Nolander said:

So what exactly does it mean to believe?

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Here is some scripture:

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John 20:26-31 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

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To believe in Jesus is just that believe that He came to Earth and died on the Cross for your sins so that you can spend an eternity with Him. That is all. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to really read your Bible (even though that is God's Holy Word and it is good to keep it close to your heart). The beauty of Jesus is that He wants to save you. He wants to save everyone. Anyone who asks Him into His life, and is "born again"

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John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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Will have the grace of God on him, and will have Jesus in his life. It is that easy.
As for science, Ambrosius, I think I answered that in another post.

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Ambrosius said:

2+2=3 Why can't you accept that

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I can't accept that because it has been proven false. I can accept the Bible because it has not and will not be proven false. And yes, I can say that with certainty. And JVI seems to think that the tribulation will happen in 8 years, so that is when the unfortunate ones will say,"oh yeah."

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Gilbert Nolander said:

Sure, you may say, their are universal truths, but even this is not true.

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It is true, because in the Bible, God has given some of the truths to the nations as "natural" truths. We know that we are in the last days because even those "natural" truths are being violated (same-sex marriage).

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Gilbert Nolander said:

Why can't people in this day and age just question salvation, and the
interpretation that people have of what exactly salvation is?

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Hey, don't take that statement to mean I have a problem with questions. That is what led me to the answers I got in the Bible in the first place. I think questioning is the only way we are going to be able to resist temptations. I hope you never stop questioning (just not the same ones over and over that gets kinda boring). I just have one more thought for you: How did the Earth form? Where did the dinosaurs come from? Do you know for a fact? Were you there? I hope not. That would make you a little old. About 6 or 7 thousand years old to be exact. No, you couldn't have possibly seen the dinos, or how they were formed. How do you know then? How do you find out? Well, the dinos did leave something behind. Fossils. But do these fossils come out of the ground with little tags on them that say,"Hi, I'm 65 million years old." No, you have to try and figure out what happened back then to get them to where they are today. You can't possibly know what happened. The only way to truly know what happened is to know someone who was alive back then. I happen to have a revelation from a being who was.

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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

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Gilbert Nolander said:

And I will continue to search for the answers to those questions until the day I
die

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I hope you do, and I hope you live long enough to find out all your questions. I can answer some of them, but certainly not all of them. I am no pastor, but I do know some.

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Gilbert Nolander said:

I just have a hard time believing that the God of the bible is the true God

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Why is that?

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Gilbert Nolander said:

but I also know that no God, who is the true creator of everything, would ever
judge me for thinking this

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No, no, no. He most certainly will not. If you ever read the book of Job (good book by the way), he questions God in almost every passage that he speaks. His friends scorn him for doing so. But, in the end when God makes His appearance, He commends Job for asking, and never losing faith that God would deliver. And He did.

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Gilbert Nolander said:

I guess that 'some' Christians though, do not think they are judging any one
when they say "You are going to hell"

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Well, they may think that, but they have no power over who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. That is soley up to God. I really hope for your sake that you don't meet too many people who like to put stumbling blocks in other's paths (I really hope that my being so bold with my statements won't make you stumble. If it does, please tell me. I would reather not blumber around and mess things up for you).

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Gilbert Nolander said:

How are we, as simple humans, to understand the full power of God

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True, true. Did you know that the Temple in Israel, or rather the temple that was in Israel, was not a temple of God. It was just to hold the power of His name! That is how powerful He is, that His Holy name deserved a whole temple. That is incredible to me. And yes, how can we even begin to fathom what He wants. All we have to go on are His sacred texts. The Holy Bible. That is how God trys to tell us a little about what is going on. If He told us the whole story, our heads would explode even before He started speaking. It is just amazing to me. But, if the Bible really is God's Holy Word, why not read it? It has many things in it that help even if you are not a Christian. I find something new and useful every time I open that book. I love it.

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Gilbert Nolander said:

I just don't see how you can be so sure, that's all.

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Well, I can be sure of the ancient texts because 1.) my heart tells me so 2.)(the one you will most likely like) because these books were written by Moses, and David, and Elijah. Not just some gov't trying to take over the world, and not just some bum off the street. These were real live prophets. I just one to ask you how can you not take something so sacred, so ancient, so right on so many counts true? I think that the Bible is true, beyond a doubt. Most of it has been proven, and none of it has been disproven (outside of context). The only account of some civilizations rest in the Bible. Some monarchs, who were long forgotten, were only known through the Bible until some archaeologists recently found proof outside the Bible of their existance. The Bible isn't just parables, or history that is hard to chew, but it is also cold hard facts about History, Biology, Chemistry... the list goes on.
Thank you for clearing that up for me Ambrosius. I will now know the truth about that. I guess some teacher got it in my head that people used salt to make their meat taste better. But, that gives new light to an old Bible verse I like.

quote:

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Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men

---

quote:

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DL-44 said:

Salt itself is a preservative, and is also an essential part of life for humans,
animals, and some plants.

---

Thank you for helping me to better understand this verse.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 08-20-2004 07:25)

Thanks for your info Gideon, it has given me a lot to think about, and has clarified some things I was thinking about.

If you ever need anything, just ask. I would gladly try to help in any way I can.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

In my oppinion I think they doctored the whole part about mother earth....blah blah blah... I have read most of the bible (Gideon I know what you are going to say and yes i have now done more than skim it.) and The Apocrypha (books of the bible that were taken out by the Catholic religion because they didn't have enought to do with Christ) and I don't remember seeing it any where so if they are calling themselves christian they need to obey the commandment that states, "Though shallt not bear false witness"

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

quote:

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Sangreal said:

(Gideon I know what you are going to say and yes i have now done more than skim
it.)

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I'm glad.

quote:

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Sangreal said:

if they are calling themselves christian they need to obey the commandment that
states, "Though shallt not bear false witness"

---

Now it's my turn Sangreal .
They don't think that they are bearing false witness. They aren't even considering themselves Christians. They think more in the fact that they are a "special sect" inside a "special sect". They think that the "Paulic" church destroyed theirs because of belief diferences. I think it is ludicrous what they claim if they would read about what Paul writes. He writes about love, kindness, and equality, not anger and strife. I am very saddened by what happens, but it forfills prophecies, so... I guess I can't say I am surprised. Any way, in a few shorter words, I agree with you 100%.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Per Gilbert:


"And after this manner pray to your Earthly Mother: Our Mother which art upon earth, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, and thy will be done in us, as it is in thee. As thou sendest every day thy angels, send them to us also. Forgive us our sins, as we atone all our sins against thee. And lead us not into sickness, but deliver us from all evil, for thine is the earth, the body, and the health. Amen.




Anyway, if these are true, it seems Jesus gives a lot of credit to Mother Earth, a lot more than what is given in the bible, and I was just wondering what Christians had to say about all this stuff. It certainly is interesting. Especially some of the details of his healing people which the text contains. And his solutions for healing, which are more like doctor recommendations, or I should say Medicine Men recommendations. Anyway, this whole Essene thing is really interesting (though all their webpages seem to be crappy), and I thought some of you might find it interesting also.


Don't follow their current sect beliefs but on the original Essene cable story I saw I thought that the original Essenes indeed were following Christianity. They seemed Chrisitan to me, especially in regard to "Mother Earth" who for us Catholics is the Virgin Mary.

In this area, we do not worship the Mother as God but by honor because she is birth mother of the divine word. Our belief is that the earth was made for her so the divine could come thur her as the man god according to the divine plan. So the earth belongs to her by birthright and she rules the domains of the earth and has power over its elements. Only because God wills it to her as gift because of her perfected soul. This means for us too she possess rule over the Angels. One of her titles in the RC church is "Queen of the Angels". But also, she is subject to the Trinity, who have complete authority over her. Then again, usually, the second person, Jesus, her son denies her nothing as we see in the gosples " Marriage at Cana" because of his great love for his beloved mother.


Mother Earth in its chemistry, from dust to the stars is really for us Catholics a "true mother" in what it represents for us if that makes any sense.

In the reference to pray to Mother Earth, this is for intercessory prayers because on behalf of her son the Virgin can perform great wonders and can influence the King of Heaven and Earth, who just happens to be the divine person she gave birth to.

Would you deny your own mother if she asked you for a favor?
Jesus & Mary his mother still have a parent/son relationship in heaven today. And if we believe in the Bible, then we also believe love conquers death. Meaning we take the love we have on earth and carry it with us to eternity. So Jesus & his beloved mother still love each other. But the depth of their love goes beyond any love one can ever imagine because the God Jesus is love in all its purity. So Jesus must be a powerhouse of love even in the womb of the virgin. Its a wonder Mary didn't raidiate from the outside during her pregnancy. But then she probably radiated from within.

(Edited by jade on 09-04-2004 14:53)

(Edited by jade on 09-04-2004 15:09)

Thank you Jade. I was always told by my Baptist Youth Minister that Catholicism (I think I spelled that wrong ) was bad because Catholics "worshiped" or prayed to the Virgin Mary (I find it funny (not ha ha funny, but funny like heh funny) that people still refer to her as a virgin. If you really think about it she wasn't a little while after Jesus was born (unless all of Jesus's brothers and sisters were affairs ), and I always wondered exactly what that entailed. Thank you for clairifying that. To me, I always refer to chapter 14 in Romans whenever someone says something bad about another denomination. Not that the other denominations are weaker, just that they are different, and if the others in the denominations do what they are doing for the Lord, depending on what it is, I have no problem with it. I just don't worship Mary for the reason that Jesus didn't either. The Bible says that she is blessed, but not that she was the second most important person in Jesus's adult life. There is actually an instance in the Bible where He refused to talk to her. She may be right under the trinity in Heaven, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have any power that Jesus's name doesn't hold. I don't see the point in praying to her instead of just going straight to Jesus. But, that is my opinion.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon

Well the concept on "worship" is misunderstood by many christian brothers and sisters of faith. Many don't agree with what they don't understand. There is much depth to scriputure, that just reading what is written and not relating to different parts of other written scripture, the real meanings are lost.

I just cannot understand that if your Christian & you say you believe wholeheartly in the truth of the Savior Jesus CHrist that you wouldn't have reverence for the mother that bore him. Even Bill Clinton's mother or Geroge Bush's mother get better honor than the mother of the God almighty to some Baptist.

What would you do if you lived in the times of Christ after his death and you knew he was the Savior of the World and Mary his mother walked in a room you were in to pray, how would you react? Woud you ignore her like some Christians do today? Mary was instrumental with the other disciples in starting the first church at Pentecost.

And there is no proof that Mary had other children. According to our Christian faith, Mary was a perpetual virgin. She and Joseph were extremely Holy in Grace. They offered up their celebacy as honor. Sort of like monks or sisters do.

]

quote:

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jade said:

Many don't agree with what they don't understand.

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True that.

quote:

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jade said:

that you wouldn't have reverence for the mother that bore him.

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I do have reverence for her, I do respect her, but to me she is another sister in Christ. She may have been His mother, but even she had sin and Jesus had to pay the price for her. I do call her blessed, but not sacred. I will give her the honor that is due to the mother of God, but I refuse to pray to her. She may be able to intercede to her Son, but again I ask,"why should I ask her, when I can go straight to Jesus?"
I understand that she was an awesome person, a great Chirstian, but Christian means "follower of Christ".
I will say that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, but not afterward:

quote:

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Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

---

Jesus had biological brothers, and if Mary stayed a virgin after Jesus's birth, the only way that could be possible is if Joseph had some affairs, or some concubines, and that might not go over too well with Jesus. He also said that "For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." I think He was trying to say that everyone is equal to Him. That means that if I pray to Mary, then I would have to pray to my mother, because she is a mother in Christ, you, because you are a sister, many of my friends because they are brothers and sisters in Christ. Do you see the point I am trying to make?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Yes. I do see your point. But the scripture refers to a revelation in that all are his family if they follow him in his present time and future. He refers to mothers, fathers, sons, daughters who all are considered brothers and sisters in christ. Jesus in this scripture is using prophecy to reveal his future church on earth if you believe in him. Christ would never deny his own biological Mother as just a mere soul who just happen to be the instrument used to come into the world and just discard her as ordinary like you and I. She was without sin in the world. Yes, he did save her from sin because he had to come uncontaminated. God could not come into to a soul with sin. Think about it. Think about Mt. Sinai/Moses. The mountain was so holy it was all holy ground because God was on that mountain. The Ark of the Covenant was so holy, it also could not be touched. Whoever touched it would die. Right? It only housed Gods laws, manna and a staff. Now you have a women with God in her physical womb. Surly the woman had to be pure full of grace and more greater than the Ark of the Covenant. What is it to be full of grace per scripture? Lacking in nothing. Wouldn't you consider that sinless? I think there is much left out of scripture that God wants us to ponder about ourselves so we can grow in wisdom like the one we are suppose to imitate, Christ who is our brother, mother, father, sister and most of all friend.


In reference to his biological family, brothers, sisters, where were they in the history of scripture? Surly his own blood family would of followed him and been instrumental in the foundation of his church. There is no metion of them in scripture. In the Protevangelization of James (the book the church decided not to use in the canon of scripture but still considers historical, Joseph was a widow and had other children. He was in his forties, while Mary was around fourteen years old at the time of the birth of Jesus. Did you know that in the times of Jesus, relatives like cousins distiant cousins, aunts and uncles were considered brothers and sisters. In the ministry of Jesus Christ, his disciples, were considered his brothers.

Also too per scripture we know, Jesus is a King of a Kingdom in heaven. Where there is a King, there must be a queen. And who to you is the queen?

Here she is:

http://www.intermirifica.org/Mary/angels.htm

(Edited by jade on 09-14-2004 05:43)

Who says there has to be a queen in every Kingdom? There doesn't have to be a king in every KINGdom. So why must there be a queen? I see what you mean that people should RESPECT Mary for birthing the savior but that doesn't mean she is a queen. Besides if she is a queen and Jesus is the King wouldn't that mean they are married and that is an incestual relationship, which Jesus condemns.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

(Edited by Sangreal on 09-14-2004 14:31)

No. Thats not what I mean. She is the queen Mother of heaven & earth, which is really the same place. In the supernatural heaven is on earth.

Hmm i am slightly confused on what you are saying. do you mind clarifying so far all i am getting out of your last post is that she is the Queen of Heaven but not the Queen of Earth, but in a supernatural sense heaven is earth or on earth. The last part interests me though because it reminded me of a half made theory i once had. anyways that may be another thread.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

I pen pen at the earth mother prayer do to history between the Christian religion and Divine Goddess religions. BWAGAGAGAWAGAh

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

quote:

---

Hmm i am slightly confused on what you are saying. do you mind clarifying so far all i am getting out of your last post is that she is the Queen of Heaven but not the Queen of Earth, but in a supernatural sense heaven is earth or on earth. The last part interests me though because it reminded me of a half made theory i once had. anyways that may be another thread

---

.

Well, thru some theological study on Mariology, I was reading that earth is heaven in progress. Like when we cross over, we will still inhabit the earth but in the supernatural. That is the reason I say Mary is queen of both the physical/supernatural world in the sense that she is already queen for RCs today and after we come to know Christ/God in its fullness in the afterlife, she will still be mother queen in all her glory. Mary is no God due worship.
She is a venerator like Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc but in a more virtuous, greater & powerful role (Yes! Woman power to the max) in that she is the mother of the savior and without blemish before her conception and after till mortal death as a human. Just like all humanity physically are born of women, so too the earth is created for a woman and that woman is the mother of God for us because she is the mother of eternal life(Jesus) who is the way, the truth and the life in the mortal and supernatural way forever through out all eternity. Mary gave birth to salvation(Jesus), so Mary for us also gives birth to all nations too in the spiritual sense.

Its this confusing? This is the most condensed way I can explain it.

(Edited by jade on 09-21-2004 20:38)

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Surly his own blood family would of followed him and been instrumental in the foundation of his church.

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Why "surely"?

That is certainly not a given, especially given the very radical nature of his preaching.

You speak from the assumption you hold of hsi divinity 2000 years later. Things were much different then, there's jsut no telling how his family would have viewed things....

.


(oh, and please: "would have followed", not "would of followed". One means something...the other does not... =)

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That is certainly not a given, especially given the very radical nature of his preaching.

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Just as radical today as it was then! !

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You speak from the assumption you hold of hsi divinity 2000 years later. Things were much different then, there's jsut no telling how his family would have viewed things....

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Given what we know of the culture of that time period, and of human behavior in general, . >

dig on this:
6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat .
8 But when his disciples saw it , they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10 When Jesus understood it , he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.
13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

quote:

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You speak from the assumption you hold of hsi divinity 2000 years later. Things were much different then, there's jsut no telling how his family would have viewed things....

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DL how I have missed u.

Well, we know what the mother of Jesus thought. She was instrumental along with the other disciples in the start of his church from scripture. If Mary his mother believed in him why not his own flesh and blood family. Where are they noted in scripture. If his siblings did not believe in him wouldn't that be noted in scripture. If he could pick out 12 strangers to be his disciples, why not his own siblings if he had any.

(Edited by jade on 09-22-2004 21:20)

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Where are they noted in scripture.

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Couldn't tell you. of course it also depends on what you care to call scripture. We obviously differ on this, but I certainly hate to limit my view of christianity to what the very politically motivated bishops (and later popes) took upon themselves to decide what was the 'one true word of god'.

Especially with so much out there...

But that has nothing to do with my question - you make very large assumptions, such as the idea that if Jesus had siblings they *must* have been supportive of him and even have been a big part of building up his church.

I just feel such assumptions are very dangerous things to build your beliefs on...



{{edit, just for fun:

not to mention the obvious reason that the unwed-mother-mary might have for promoting the idea of her illegitimate son's divinity

}}

(Edited by DL-44 on 09-23-2004 00:29)

Uh, historically, Jesus had very little to do with creating the "Church". The current system of Catholic beliefs is based on the preachings of Paul the Apostle (the first Pope in Rome) with a lot of St. Augustine thrown in for good measure. By the time "Christianity" began to form, Jesus was no longer on earth. In fact, the oldest Gospel, the Gospel of Luke the Physician has been found to have been written 50 years after Jesus' death. Both Paul and Augustine were massive misogynists, and frowned heartily on any reverence for the female divine. The Church was further organized by Constantine the Great of Rome, who also did not have a lot of respect for women... (except his mother, perhaps). The current system of Pretestant beliefs is directly drawn from the pre-existing structure of the original Catholic Church.

For the last hundred centuries or so, the Church has been guided for and by men. Women were suffered as necessary for procreation and for taking care of men and children, but for little else. Even now, when women have gained back so much of the stature that was previously lost, the Church is not woman-friendly. Women have to force the issue far more than should be necessary. Change is happening, but slowly...

The Essenes were a sect of Judaism, and it is believed that Jesus spent the years between the incident at the Jerusalem Temple when he was 12, to the start of his ministry at the age of 30 studying with the Essenes - the cave at Qumran is believed to have been part of an Essene community. The philosophy of the Essenes is frequently reflected in the teachings of Jesus. While they are probably not what one would consider "Christian" at this time in history, they were here before the Christians, and Jesus evidently thought enough of their teachings to include them in his work.

As for why we should honor the female divinity, life would not be here without it. You would not be here without your mother, Jesus would not have been born without his mother. Your children would not be here without their mother. Why on earth would you NOT want to honor the female? It is absolutely necessary to the continuance of life on earth. To create human life, chromasomes from both the male and the female are necessary.

In Christian Mysticism, the Holy Trinity is The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the representation of the feminine here. All of the qualities given to the Holy Spirit are feminine. But Paulian and Augustinian Christianity have tried to disguise that fact. Try to keep in mind that the Christian religion is a fabrication of men throughout history, and whatever merit the core beliefs may have, the Church is run by men, and men are fallible - no matter what they'd have you believe. (so are women, for that matter, but that's not the argument here...)

Bdi. I don't where your getting your facts, but I guess its according to who or what you read. The first church was incepted at Pentecost where all followers called the WAY gathered to break bread noted in the Acts of the Apostles. Different communitys gathered in secret. Historically for Catholics, that is when "Church" began. I think your getting confused with hierarchy. According to our history, Paul was not a pope and the churches were already existing when he started his ministry. Sounds like your reading protestant history. Not Catholic history. We recgonize Peter as our first bishop of Rome, who just happens to be the title of the current pope. This is way before Constantine came into the picture. He did not organize the church. He stopped Christians from being persecuted and gave it protection. He helped it along the way by giving the church land, money. As far as women in the church, there were women priest before in early christianity and because of women saints and maryters in the early church, christianity is what it is today. The mere fact that we esteem mary, motherhood and the current active role of many women in the church, I think we are pretty women friendly. Just because we do not recongize women priest does not mean we don't esteem & respect the role women play in the chruch. They are 75% more active in the lay church than man. But we must adhere to our teachings.

(Edited by jade on 09-23-2004 17:52)

(Edited by jade on 09-23-2004 17:54)

Constantine did actually have a great deal to do with the organization of the church. It was quite messy before he took control of it (which he most certainly did). What he established, and the amount of cleaning up, organizing and such that he did was quite remarkable.

The idea of a pope came about after that time. It came to be recognized that the bishop in Rome held more sway than the others (based on the idea of Jesus' statement to Peter and all...). The idea of 'pope' and the pope's authority evolved from there.

At different times in history, the pope has been under the control of the Emperor, and at various times the other way around. For very large parts of the catholic church's history, the pope has been appointed directly by the secular leader, and very often the pope as well as many of the bishops were really nothing more than politicians taking advantage of whatever highest office they could get to. There was certainly very little requirement in many cases of any particular theological expertise...

I read a lot of books, from many different perspectives. I study religious history, it interests me - I've been an anthropology major for over a decade, it's part and parcel. I watch The History Channel, Discovery Channel and The Learning Channel, all of which present topics from a variety of perspectives, and I have a mother who is an Episcopal priest, who has studied and been an advocate for feminism in the Church for over 2 decades now, both Catholic and Protestant. I was indeed raised Protestant, but have had many Catholic friends, including a girl who was interested in serving at the altar but was refused on the basis of her sex (this happened less than 20 years ago).

Regardless of whether or not the Catholic Church recognizes women for the ordained ministry, it still stands that any major advances for women in the Church have been made in the last 50 years. Of course the Catholic Church has become "woman-friendly" - it had to! Women have become noisier about getting their place in society, if the Catholic Church hadn't changed some of its views, women would have left it in droves. They did what they had to do, thank goodness. An organization like the Church really has to keep up with society in that respect... got to keep membership stable and growing, got to keep tithes coming in... The Church is a business, like anything else. And business is all about marketing. And don't get all rightous on me about faith and belief and all that - if it wasn't for that, we wouldn't be talking about the Church in the first place. I have no problems with the beliefs of Chrisitanity, nor with those who hold them dear to themselves. But the history of Christianity speaks for itself.

I'd like to know what you've been reading - sounds like propaganda to me...

Of course there were female saints and martyrs - women lived and believed and many felt the need to give up their lives for it too. (If you really look into it, many of the female "saints" were converted heathen goddesses... a la St. Brigid?)

Paul - first Bishop, first Pope, its semantics and I'm not going to argue. Fact is the Church before Paul took that position was not "organized" in the sense that the modern Church is organized. Certainly there were groups of practicing Christians at the time, there would have had to be in order for there to be any need to organize the Church to begin with. And Paul, St. Augustine and Emperor Constantine all had their hands in creating what we now consider the Catholic Church, which throughout history has not been all that nice to women.

Granted, most of the Protestant denominations that came about were also not very nice to women. They were also organized and run by men. The Christian religion is extremely patriarchical, and always has been. (I'm not partisan here...) They can't completely ignore women, because, as I stated before, you can't have life without women. But stack up the number of important women in the history of Christianity with the number of important men in that same history and the difference in numbers is staggering.

quote:

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The idea of a pope came about after that time. It came to be recognized that the bishop in Rome held more sway than the others (based on the idea of Jesus' statement to Peter and all...). The idea of 'pope' and the pope's authority evolved from there.

---

I can agree with most of this DL. The title pope comes from the italian word "papa" which means father. Its an endearment word for beloved father of the church. Peter was the first bishop of Rome and for the Roman church this established authority for the future church. Later on came many churches.Paul by his conversion never quesitoned the authority of the bishops. He preached to follow the chruch and its bishops and if there were differences in views of scripture, he preached that the church was the final authority. Now, who would have authority over these churches and their many bishops?

just to nitpick, 'pope' comes from the greek word 'pappas' which, yes, means father. It also took a few centuries for the term to come to mean what we call today the Pope. It was used for any priest, just as we use the term 'father' today.

.


I think you either misunderstand, or place for higher emphasis upon, the organization and power of the early church. There really wasn't any, and certainly no roman catholic concept.

You have to remember that we're talking 300 years before the persecution of the christians in Rome even began to be frowned upon...

There were a lot of noble and brave people...but there was no ability to truly organize.

Papal authority realistically began with emperical authority....

(Edited by DL-44 on 09-26-2004 20:49)

Hello everybody! It looks like you have carried this conversation in a whole new direction since I have been gone. Sounds like a good topic. I would like to adress some previous concerns first, then I will get to the church.
First off:

quote:

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jade said:

Christ would never deny his own biological Mother as just a mere soul who just
happen to be the instrument used to come into the world and just discard her as
ordinary like you and I.

---

No, that wasn't what I was wanting to say. She was a holy and blessed woman, I just don't think that she should be prayed to. About the discarding, that could be close to true considering what you three have been talking about... And we are certainly not discarded as ordinary either. There is no one who is ordinary (if anything we are below normal among the great in the Bible) to Jesus. He loves us all individually and differently.

quote:

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jade said:

She was without sin in the world.

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Okay, this is debatable. I know that she was a righteous person, but she was not entirely without sin unless she had made all the appropriate sin offerings (which most likely did happen) and then stayed in the law her entire life. But, it says in scripture:

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Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

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That includes Mary. None are free of sin. She just made the offerings and life style to become "sinless".
As for his siblings, that is not known for certain. It is up for scholars in the Holy Land to look for, but as far as I know it is not sinful to have children. I know that adultry is sin, but adultry is extramarital. She could have still had siblings. Plus:

quote:

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Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

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King James says:

quote:

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Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

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That further proves my point that she did have other children. But, off of that, I just wanted to say that I think she was a great person, and very blessed, but I don't see why she should be prayed to. Not when you can just pray to Jesus or the Father (through the Holy Spirit). It doesn't make sense to me.

Okay, now that past issues are done, onto the topic at hand.

quote:

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jade said:

Mary is no God due worship

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I'm glad, that is what I was worried about.

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DL-44 said:

Why "surely"?

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I agree about this. If you can find it I posted some scripture earlier about Jesus not being accepted in his own town. That is part of it.

quote:

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bodhi23 said:

While they [Essenes] are probably not what one would consider "Christian" at this time in
history, they were here before the Christians, and Jesus evidently thought
enough of their teachings to include them in his work.

---

I don't know about that. A lot of what they teach is parallel to what Jesus teaches, but that was just the same as what the normal religion of the time was. There were some radically different ideas in the Essene site that were totally against what Jesus taught. I don't know if Jesus would have allowed what they said to even have been spoken near Him! Like the idea of reincarnations. That wasn't Jesus. He was resurections. And kinda immediate spiritual perfection, not this "redemption through works" as the Essenes have.

quote:

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bodhi23 said:

The Holy Spirit is the representation of the feminine here.

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I don't think that is entirely true. The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, and if it is Female, then He would have to be the "Mother."

quote:

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jade said:

Peter as our first bishop of Rome, who just happens to be the title of the
current pope.

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quote:

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Matthew 16:15-19
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

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This is where that thought came about.
Um, just to clairify one thing Bohdi, Paul was a missionary and started many churches, but He was moving so much that I doubt He had time to become the Bishop of Rome ie. Pope.
Bodhi, I bet you are a women's rights activist. I have a few friends who share your same opinion about the world, and I think that women should have more rights than they do. Especially in the Middle East. There women are treated like dirt. I do think that there should be a change, but not in the religious aspect. Churches are run that way because they have been run that way. Generally in the past it was the male figure in the household who brought the money in and the female who took care of the house and family. The only civilization that was not true in was a civilization off the coast of Greece. There both were equal and happy about it. Only problem is that ended about 500 BC. The roles of men and women have largely been defined in the past by the need of someone in the house caring for the children, and one out getting supplies and allowing the children a better life than either parent did before. Either role can be played by either partner, but since the children came out of the mother, there is usually a stronger bond there. That is why most soldiers who die on the battlefield call for their mothers. Women played a large role in society back then, it was just different. More behind the scenes. Women back then were noble, and allowed their glory hog husbands to get all the fame (except the few like Ruth who were dragged into the spotlight). I have more respect for those women who were behind the scenes than for many of the men in front. I do agree that women in the past weren't properly given credit they deserved, but that can't be changed without making people angry. It can be changed for the better in the future though.

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DL-44 said:

Papal authority realistically began with emperical authority

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Yup. The authority was usually too persecuted to have any say in anything. THen, when the Roman Empire fell, there was almost too much say from the church. That will be the topic of my next post. TTFN.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 09-27-2004 03:40)

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jade said:

Christ would never deny his own biological Mother as just a mere soul who just
happen to be the instrument used to come into the world and just discard her as
ordinary like you and I.
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jade said:

She was without sin in the world.
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Okay, this is debatable. I know that she was a righteous person, but she was not entirely without sin unless she had made all the appropriate sin offerings (which most likely did happen) and then stayed in the law her entire life. But, it says in scripture:


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Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
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That includes Mary. None are free of sin. She just made the offerings and life style to become "sinless".



Gideon. You are judging and individual. Its against scripture to say someone is in sin. "Do not judge and you yourself will not be judged"

Plus, you cannot be certain that Mary entered into this world in sin. We believe she was conceived without sin. Saved from sin by God. Mary was saved through anticipated merits of Jesus. Her salvation was simply more perfect. If your Christian, don't you believe we are cleansed from sin after our birth. Why couldn't she be cleansed before her birth. Isn't anything possible with God.Luke 1:37, In Luke 1:26-56 Note how the Angel Gabriel shows Mary great honor in a greeting and telling her she would bear God. See how Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit calls Mary blessed twice in just four short verses. Under guidance from the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth gives Mary great honor with the words. " And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord(God) should come to me"? In verse 48, Mary prophesies that all ages will call her blessed. Why don't you do what scripture tells you to do by calling her blessed? Catholics are following scripture here. Why aren't protestants doing the same thing? She is the woman in Gen 3:15 whose enmity with Satan and SIN is absolute. She is the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 25:11-21) made to hold the living Word of God, a HOLY TABERNACLE MADE NOT OF THE PUREST GOLD, BUT OF THE PUREST FLESH. St. Paul is emphasizes the universal aspect of sin extending to Jew and Gentiles alike. Babies had not sinned; Adam and Eve before the fall had not sinned; Jesus never sinned. These are the exceptions that fall outside of St. Pauls condemnation. Mary is another. There is no denying Jesus was Mary's savior in that he saved her from sin before she was able to sin.

Do you believe Jesus was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Do you believe Jesus had two natures, one human, one divine? Since this one person was born of Mary, she truly is the Mother of one divine person; the Mother of God. If you deny Mary is the Mother of God, whether you realize it or not, you are denying the Incarnation. You are saying either that Jesus is not God, or that Jesus is two persons-one human and one divine.

What is your idea on how God overshadowed Mary and she became pregnant? Can you be certain on how Jesus was conceived? Do you know the exact details? And why was that left out of scripture? Overshadowed???? What would that mean to you?

A title we give Mary is the Mother of God because, Elizabeth calls her "mother of my Lord" In the new testament "Lord" refers only to God. Right? In Mt 1:23 Behold the virgin shall be with child and bear a son and they shall name him Emmanuel which means "God is with us" Check Luke 1:35 "The child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God" In Gal 4:4" But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his son born of a woman"


Gideon said:

As for his siblings, that is not known for certain. It is up for scholars in the Holy Land to look for, but as far as I know it is not sinful to have children. I know that adultery is sin, but adultery is extramarital. She could have still had siblings. Plus:


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Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
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Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
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Gideon said:

That further proves my point that she did have other children. But, off of that, I just wanted to say that I think she was a great person, and very blessed, but I don't see why she should be prayed to. Not when you can just pray to Jesus or the Father (through the Holy Spirit). It doesn't make sense to me.

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Protestants argue that the word "until" indicates that Mary and Joseph engaged in conjugal love after the birth of Jesus. The problem is they use the modern meaning of "until," instead of its Biblical meaning. In the Bible, ?until? means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that a action happened later. A perfect example is (2 Sam 6:23), "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death" Does this verse mean Michal had children after her death? Of course not, no one would believe that.

Protestants also use (Matt 1:25) to claim Jesus could not be Mary's "first-born" unless there were other children, but this shows their ignorance of the way the ancient Jews used this term. The first male child of a marriage was termed the "first-born" even if he turned out to be a only child. Jewish parents did not have to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the "first-born".

One last area of confusion is in which the terms "brothers," and "sisters " of the Lord are used in the Bible. One must first understand the reason for the confusion. Modern Protestants are unaware that in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages spoken by Christ and His disciples did not have special words to denote cousin or kinsman. In the Bible "brother" and "sister" are not restricted to their modern meaning. When reading the Bible, one must look at the context of each verse in order to understand it. Furthermore, in every passage that refers to Jesus' brothers or sisters, the sacred authors were very careful to only call Jesus the son of Mary, no one else. This is evidence that the early Christians understood Mary?s perpetual virginity, and that the brothers and sisters of the Lord were relatives nothing more.

The Biblical evidence that supports the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is overwhelming. First, the account of Jesus being found in the temple at age twelve (Lk 2:41-51). There is no mention or even a hint of other children. The probability of Mary and Joseph having more children if they were sexually active would have been a forgone conclusion, because the ancient Jews didn?t practice any form of birth control. Second, Jesus' action at the foot of the cross, when He entrusted his mother to John, makes no sense if Mary had other sons (Jn 19:25-28). If Jesus actually had brothers, it would have been customary by Jewish law that he bequeath her care to them. Instead he chose St. John the apostle, who was not related to Him by blood. The reality is that there is no biblical basis for rejecting Mary's perpetual virginity, but there is compelling evidence to support it.

(Edited by jade on 09-28-2004 08:45)

Nope - not a feminist, per se. But I am a historian, and my views are not colored by a particular belief system. All of the historical documents of the time period we are discussing reflect a strictly patriarchal world view. My opinion doesn't really matter in light of that...
All of the monotheistic religions I've ever read about were patricarchal, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the main 4. Go read up on 'em.

Uh, what? The Greeks? Woman-friendly? Ok - you are obviously reading different history than I am. On a quick search, I fould this:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741501460_3/Ancient_Greece.html

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Although only men had the right to participate in city-state politics, women were citizens legally, socially, and religiously. Female citizens could own property and could go to court over property disputes. Nonetheless, ancient Greek society was paternalistic, with men acting as ?fathers? to regulate the lives of women and safeguard their interests (as defined by men). All women were expected to have male guardians to protect them physically and legally. Women's important religious duties included control over cults reserved exclusively for them and paid service as publicly supported priestesses. Teenage women generally married men in their 20s.
Sparta had a distinctive way of life designed to produce a vigorous military. There, girls could exercise in the open so they could become strong and bear healthy children. Boys left home at age seven to live in public barracks and to begin about 12 years of rigorous physical and moral training under the strict guidance of older men...

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Greek women were baby makers and care takers. Not active in politics or at all outside the home.

And here's a nice article relating the history of women's roles in society and in the Church from a Christian perspective.

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Women back then were noble, and allowed their glory hog husbands to get all the fame

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You're kidding, right? I'm not even going to respond to that one.

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The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, and if it is Female, then He would have to be the "Mother."

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from here

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The Biblical Hebrew word for spirit is ruwach, meaning wind, breath, inspiration; the noun is grammatically feminine. In the "Odes of Solomon'; the oldest surviving Christian hymnal, the Holy Spirit is grammatically female. The Greek word for spirit, 'pneuma', is of the neuter gender. The Holy Spirit is translated in masculine terms only in languages such as Latin and English.

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and here

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...numerous passages in the Nag Hamadi scrolls as well as the use of the feminine gender noun when speaking of the Holy Spirit in Hebrew and Greek are often cited as evidence for this belief.

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An argument for using female symbols for God arises from the practical effects of God-language on the readers. Imagery for God helps us understand the world. The way a faith community talks about God indicates what it considers the highest good, the profoundest truth. This language, in turn, molds the community's behavior, as well as its members' self-understanding. The fact that Jews and Christians ordinarily speak about God in the image of a male ruler can be problematic. For feminist theology, the difficulty does not lie with the male metaphors. Men as well as women are created in the image of God. The problem lies in the fact that the specific male images reflect a patriarchal arrangement of the world, casting God into the mold of an omnipotent, even if benevolent, monarch. God's maternal relation to the world is eclipsed.

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My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a whole. Don't be thicker than you must.

History, up until the last 50 years or so was almost wholly written by and about men. As history is generally written by the "winners", it is easy to see the implication that society was run by men and that women were just there to procreate and take care of households and children.

A major religious movement like Christianity necessarily takes its structure from the world around it. If the world is run by men, so is the Church then run by men. The only reason that it includes women so well these days is directly due to women's push to be an active part of society, instead of hovering in the "background", as you put it.

(Edited by bodhi23 on 09-28-2004 17:39)

Must second pretty much everything Bodhi said.

It is amazing what education without the bias of upholding religious dogma can do for a person

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Protestants argue that the word "until" indicates that Mary and Joseph engaged in conjugal love after the birth of Jesus. The problem is they use the modern meaning of "until," instead of its Biblical meaning. In the Bible, ?until? means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that a action happened later. A perfect example is (2 Sam 6:23), "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death" Does this verse mean Michal had children after her death? Of course not, no one would believe that.

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You are using two different examples of the use of the word Jade.

The word "until" means "until" - whether it is used in teh bible or not. The meaning now is the same as it was then. It hasn't changed, Jade...

The word "until" has different implications depending on context. "until the day of her death" obviously means taht she never had children. To take that, and to say that the biblical use of the word "until" therefore means that something never happened is very ignorant.

Now, there is no explicit statement that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations and children after that point, just because the word until is used, but it most certainly leaves that possibility wide open, with a good probability even.



(Edited by DL-44 on 09-28-2004 17:58)

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My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a whole. Don't be thicker than you must.

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bodhi, wo-ahh! i just love the giggles out of you.

"love the giggles"

that's a new one on me!

Glad to oblige...

Damn nice post, Bodhi.

Amen!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

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jade said:

Its against scripture to say someone is in sin. "Do not judge and you yourself
will not be judged"

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No, no, no, I am not judging her, but that is beside the point.

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jade said:

Saved from sin by God.

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Yes.

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jade said:

If your Christian, don't you believe we are cleansed from sin after our birth.
Why couldn't she be cleansed before her birth.

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Yes, I do believe that we are cleansed from sin after we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and ask his forgiveness.

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jade said:

Isn't anything possible with God.Luke 1:37

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Yes, that is true. But anything could be everything and everything could be anything which could also be nothing. Ture?

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jade said:

Why don't you do what scripture tells you to do by calling her blessed?
Catholics are following scripture here. Why aren't protestants doing the same
thing?

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I do call her blessed, I do respect her, we've been through this before. I just don't see any reason to pray to her like she is God. Secondly, Protestants is a very broad term which includes the Church of England which was practically Catholic. And, not all proptestants are against you. Certainly not this one. I would rather love you than bicker about this subject. I also don't like being attacked, but I have a heavy heart about why some Catholics will pray to Mary and not to Jesus. Some favor Mary over Jesus. I could care less about some of the nit-picky stuff. Well, that's not entirely true. I care about those too, and the Bible should all be thought of the same way, but I do respect the difference of views on each subject. (please don't anyone quote this and yell at me for this "contradiction." I really don't like it when that happens and it will be a very long post to explain myself, so just take it as is please.)

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jade said:

Overshadowed???? What would that mean to you?

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Heh, if someone other than God overshadowed a woman anyone could make a good guess about that one. But, since it is God, I bet he didn't ... you know. Most likely he just put Himself in there. That is most likely all.

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bodhi23 said:

All of the monotheistic religions I've ever read about were patricarchal

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Yup.

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bodhi23 said:

Uh, what? The Greeks? Woman-friendly? Ok - you are obviously reading different
history than I am.

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Okay, it wasn't the Greeks. I heard this last year in my Latin class, so I have fogotten the small detail of which island it was that harbored this civilization. I know it wasn't the Greeks, but either an Island off Greece, or Italy. It was in the Mediterranian for sure, and it was the closest thing to an equal system as history has been able to procure.
I find that strange, though. Don't you? That this island was the only one to have even close to equal rights? Why is that? I wonlder. I'm not saying women are inferior. Quite the opposite, women have some serious advantages to male, and some other disadvantages too. Works out quite well how they fit together huh?

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bodhi23 said:

My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a
whole

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I stand corrected. I guess it does make sense if it has feminine qualities. Sounds good to me at least. Kinda like Masculine and Feminie qualities balancing out? Makes sense. (I will agree too, nice post by the way)

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon.

I never argue or mean to hurt you. I see a debate going on here, If I come across as being attacked or attacking you don't take it personal.
I never take post here personal. I respect your faith as I know you do mine. We both know as Christians by faith we are always searching to know the truth of the one from which we come from. As this God draws us constantly to itself, it compels us to seek & understand deeper for a closer union. And in this closer union we know because of our trust in the Christ, his Holy Spirit seeks to spread itself in us and beyond to share it by evangelizing. To be Chrisitan dictates us to move about and spread the good news that captivity in sin is over if you put your total trust in the Lord. I know we both can agree on this.

I do enjoy the wealth of knowledge the non-christians or athiest contribute as it makes me ponder different views and points. I miss them when I don' t hear from them. Everynow and then we spark up religious topics and maybe rehash the same subjects again and again.

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My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a whole.

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On the subject of the feminine God, in a theology course we studied the female face of God. Since we are made of his image and likeness, humankind refects God's holy extension of itself both male and female. Not in they way God physically looks. We do know God has no gender as scripture states. So too we give a feminine or masculine face to angels have no gender per scripture. But the essence of what God is I believe reflects womankind as well. I can agree with Bodhi here. Male is not greater of better that the female. Just that they were created in the divine plan for different roles of nature.

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jade said:

Male is not greater of better that the female. Just that they were created in
the divine plan for different roles of nature.

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I concur. Guys obviously can't have babies because they weren't made to. SO, guys have a different role, but when it comes to God, men and women pray together, and He hears a woman's prayer just as easily as a man...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.