Topic awaiting preservation: Carbon Dating (Page 2 of 2)

Very interesting post there Arthurio.

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Arthurio said:

ghostbusters are not scientists

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He he he...

First, answer Bugimus's Q first. That sounds like a good question

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Arthurio said:

jesus might have existed but if he did then he was a normal human being like all
of us ... maybe a bit smarter than the crowd tho...

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I really don't like it when people say this. Either Jesus was who He said He was or He was a horrible monster who was the cause of millions of people's deaths and was the cause of millions of people giving up any chance of using all thier potiential for something world worthy. It is one or the other, not both: Jesus is either God, or a very evil person. He can't just be "good."

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Arthurio said:

there are tons of solid proof that the bible lies ... however none that god
exists

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Hmm. Would you care to elaborate on that one? I would love to hear where the Bible lies.

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Arthurio said:

there are no ghosts

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Tell that to my friend's dad. He sees ghosts all the time at railroad tracks because he works there. And another friend who has unexplained stuff happen to him alot: like relatives coming back to speak about future deaths in the family; wierd things happening to pictures of a grandfather; shadows jumping into pictures in the middle of the night. He has had som weird things happen.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 10-24-2004 04:25)

Gideon, you have very scary black and white view of the world.

As far as bible telling lies, hehe this one had me chuckle...

Ruski, name the first lie from the bible that comes to your mind.

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huh? why?

where/when did I claim it told lies?

(Edited by Ruski on 10-24-2004 06:47)

I thought that's what you meant when you chuckled after reading the bible tells lies. I'm very sorry if you were laughing *at* that statement instead of *with* it.

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yes, I was laughing *at* it

no need to be sorry.

he he

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Bugs...c'mon. You know there are areas of the Bible, that cannot be taken literally. We have had these discussions before. Of course, you don't perceive them as "lies". But for those who do take the Bible literally, there are untruths, and you know that very well.

The Holy Bible, which is more appropriately called the Book of Truths, is absolutely inerrant in every respect. After all, it is a historically accurate record of the Words of the Living God. Those whom deviate from the Holy Path should seek absolution for if absolution is not attained the deviant shall be cast down into the fiery pits of Hell.

From Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: lie
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lige, lie, from Old English lyge; akin to Old High German lugI, Old English lEogan to lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker
2 : something that misleads or deceives
3 : a charge of lying
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I do not think definitions 1a and 2 apply and that was the definition I had in mind when I mentioned lies. But I did not realize definition 1b existed. By that definition I suppose one could say there are lies in the bible. But I don't think most people would think about definition 1b when something is called a lie.

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Just keeping you honest!

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b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker

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But we know one another for a long time now. Since the God debate, I am pretty sure where you stand on things. And you know where I stand.

You will notice that I stayed away from the term "lie".

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Bugimus said:
Why are you proud to be an atheist, Arthurio?

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i listen to the voice of reason... at least try to
god has nothing to do with reason ... only with lies, hallucinations of some drug addicts who lived a long time ago, and medieval bishop's and archbishop's greed for power (and money and blood)

one of the longest traditions of the mankind - smoking weed (etc)

about lies in bible:
the whole creation story ... just bs ... even the pope doesn't believe it ... he said to stephen hawking that he (stephen) shouldn't research beyound the big bang becouse this was the moment of creation ...

all the miracles that jesus 'made' are easily explainable (even better if he was a evil genius )... for example 'he walked on water' ... i don't remember the exact details but basicly it's this: in some lakes sand, dead vegetation etc form 'hills' (due rivers that flow into the lake) ... sometimes there are those long pathway like hills where water is only 5-10cms deep ( they never grow higher than the lake's surface for obvious reasons) ...
addition: i believe it's also possible in the delta areas of some rivers

most of the dialogues and conversations ... usually there just wasn't anyone there to write those conversations down ... quite logical ey? :P

(Edited by Arthurio on 10-24-2004 21:41)

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quite logical ey?

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Far from. Truly scary that you consider that a logical progression of thought....

brings to mind a couple of fitting quotes -

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? Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. ?
? Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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? Irrationally held truths may be more harmful than reasoned errors. ?
? Thomas Henry Huxley

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Definitionally, being proud of conditions of being is invalid pride since one can only be proud of things they do or become.

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1. proud (vs. humble) -- (feeling self-respect or pleasure in something by which you measure your self-worth; or being a reason for pride; "proud parents"; "proud of his accomplishments"; "a proud moment"; "proud to serve his country"; "a proud name"; "proud princes")

2. pride -- (satisfaction with your (or another's) achievements; "he takes pride in his son's success")

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Notice that each example relates to choices.

Arthurio, you can be proud to be an atheist if you held theistic beliefs. If you've never held theistic beliefs, you've been an atheist since you were born.

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1. lie, prevarication -- (a statement that deviates from or perverts the truth)

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Bugimus: That is noun form of "lie," which applies to the usage of "lies." See the troponym synset of sense 5 of lie (v.). I think too many people associate a single intent with a definition of a word and thus contribute to the misunderstanding of a word. Deception can be intentional or unintentional. Keep that in mind.

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Disclaimer. All opinions by metahuman use objectively defined terms. Use Princeton University's WordNet if you are uncertain of the actual meaning. Have a nice day!

So Bugimus, who decides which ones are "lies" and which ones aren't?

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Arthurio said:

god has nothing to do with reason

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So are you saying that God and the Bible are unreasonable, and are the cause of many problems that our society faces? If that is it, then I kinda agree that God is the cause of some major problems, but only because humans interpret what they want from the Bible. Hypocrites basically. Almost all Christains have been hypocrites some time or another. And I could probably say the same for all other religions including Atheism.

But if you are Saying that the Bible is unreasonable, then you are mistaken. There are many things in the Bible that are purely an common sense, plus hundreds of proverbs that help many people, myself included. My sig is actually one of them.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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DL-44 said:
? Irrationally held truths may be more harmful than reasoned errors. ?
? Thomas Henry Huxley

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yeah it does fit quite well into the context

but please don't pick on every word i say.. english isn't my first language.
due to some cultural and lingual differences, some words may have slightly
different meanings and uses ... usually most of them are the same but there
are exceptions

(Edited by Arthurio on 10-25-2004 00:24)

<comic relief>
I've actually been really interested in carbon dating lately.

But i was wondering - which do you think would be more appropriate? Going out to the movies, or just a coffee and a light meal?

</comic relief>
sorry...

reitsma

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metahuman said:
Deception can be intentional or unintentional.

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Yes, this was definition 1b in the definition I included above from m-w.com for the word. I addressed it in my comments.

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Gideon said:
...who decides which ones are "lies" and which ones aren't?

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Who decides for you what to believe?

You and I are very fortunate to live in a time and place that allows us access to more information about our bible and its composition than at any time in history. For instance, since the time the King James Version was translated we have discovered new fragments of text in archaeological digs. I'm sure that if the translators commissioned by King James had the same info they would have been grateful and would have been able to correct some of the discrepancies found in that version. The goal has always been to preserve and transmit the word of God as accurately and as completely as possible. Short of willful ignorance, there really is no other option but to stay that course and do the best we can.

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Arthurio said:
most of the dialogues and conversations ... usually there just wasn't anyone there to write those conversations down ... quite logical ey? :P

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No, I really can't agree with it being logical But let's just take this one about the conversations. In the case of Christ, there were almost always witnesses to his conversations. The apostles and he lived and travelled together for 3 years. They recorded the conversations as they recalled them.

So since it came up, what do you mean when you use the word "lie"? Do you just mean it is inaccurate or do you also mean it was intentionally written down and known to be inaccurate with an intent to deceive?

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(Edited by Bugimus on 10-25-2004 02:11)

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Bugimus said:

Who decides for you what to believe?

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So, let me get this straight: We as Christians can pick and choose ourselves what is right and wrong in the Bible. So...we are interpreting it how we want it to be interpereted? Isn't that dangerous?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

It's extremely dangerous and it's a huge responsibility. Do you have a better way?

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Isn't that dangerous?

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Isn't it far *more* dangerous to let someone else do it for you???

^ What DL said!!!

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So...we are interpreting it how we want it to be interpereted?

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To expand on this a little -

as has been said ad nauseum around here, when you accept any one group's presentation of the bible, you are accepting their interpretation of the bible. No matter where you look, unless you get yuor hands on the original texts (many of which simply do not exist anymore), you are accepting someone's interpretation.

Translating a work from one language to another is not a simple "match and replace" process - some things simply do not translate clearly, sometimes there are many possible meanings of a word, and translator must use their best judgement to determine what the author meant.

Add to that the fact that the bible as we know it was compiled by the roman church over a long period of time, with some parts added/subracted/altered along the way, and you've got quite a mess to sort out.

To say, then, that you as a christian should *not* interpret the bible in the way that you see (through research, through questioning, etc) fit (note: not 'as you want it to be') is extremely dangerous and irresponsible as a human being.

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DL-44 said:

ad nauseum

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Latin, nice.

Well, there are many Bibles out there that have all the major words translated back to the original text in the back. Not just like a hundred words, but more than that. I don't know the exact number since I do not own one, but my pastor does have one. I think it is a very good research tool for figuring out the ture meaning of some words (anyone who tries to translate between languages understands the arduous task of finding the right word to fit).

As for how the cannon came into being, it is quite interesting. I have been doing some research on that subject recently, and did you know that the Roman Catholic Church didn't just say, "This one is in. This one isn't."? Actually, they only brought together all the peices being used by The Church in that time and accept them as a universal cannon. They didn't really decide, just accept.

Hey, don't get me wrong, questions are good, research is good, those are what help you get strong in your faith. I love questioning the Bible, researching why some people said some things, what the reasons were behind things. You should never stop questioning. That is what separates us from the animals. They can't question things too easily.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.