Topic awaiting preservation: Feeding time

This really bugs me. It was on the news a little while ago. There is now a group of women who are under the belief that breast feeding in public should be a constitutional right to do so whenever whereever. I say no, for many reasons: First off it is not something that can be garunteed to everyone ( i know there are problems with that theory), It is unnecessary to make it a constitutional right and last of all it's just plain sick. I work in a restauraunt and am thoroughly grossed out when women come in and start breast feeding the child (especially when it is a toddler {yes that happened}) I find it gross and disgusting as a staff member and i am sure that the patrons don't want to see it either. I can understand having some sort of feeding station at a place where the person is going to be there for a long time i.e. a hospital or doctors office but not a public restuaruant. I don't know do you guys think i am being unreasonable? tell me what you think.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

Since breast feeding is the most natural of things (and the best for the baby, btw), I have absolutely no problem with it, whatsoever. Though I don't really think that it should be a constitutional right, I do think that women should be able to breast feed their children when they are hungry.

In case I didn't make it clear : I am not bothered in the least bit by women breast-feeding a baby.

I agree with WebShaman, there is nothing wrong with breast feeding in public. Unless the woman is careless and lets everything loose and visible to all. And that's only a problem if minors are around.

(Edited by briggl on 01-18-2005 16:39)

I'm with you Sangreal. Urinating is natural too but I don't want to watch a man/women doing it while I'm eating dinner. There are approrpiate times & places for everything. Breast feed in your own privacy.

a man??

I have no problem in general with breast feeding in public. Like anything else, however, there are times/places where it is not appropirate. Inside a restaraunt is one of those places, IMO.

I'm not about to petition to not allow people to do so or anything, but I do personally feel it is inappropriate, and no - it is not a constitutional issue whatsoever.

So lactating mothers should stay home and breast feed there? As if womens lib didn't happen at all? And since when did the act of feeding a child become something to "gross you out"?

The point is this:
Should you restrict a new mother from eating at a restaurant because she may have to breast feed during the meal? In addition to that, would you further impose restrictions on her to use a "feeding room" or a "feeding screen", for the sole purpose of protecting your, misguided, sensibilities? Whether or not it should be a constitutional right (based on the the right to liberty) is arguable, but neither should it be criminalized.

The root of the issue is the taboo about showing women's breast due to the sexual connotations inherent in that. Because of this, something simple and necessary has suddenly become "gross". And in no way is it akin to urinating in public either. The problems with urinating are (should be) ones concerned with hygiene and sanitation. I'm pretty sure breastfeeding doesn't pose the same health risks as pissing in public.

It is only in the last half century that we've come up with suitable alternatives for breast milk, and even those are poor substitutes at best. Therefore, the decision to breastfeed must be made with these considerations in mind and not any sense of immodesty.

You know what grosses me out? Narrow minded cretins who espouse their puritanical extremism the second they see a hint of flesh.

DISCLAIMER: The fact that my son is only 6 weeks old MAY have something to do with the fervor with which I posted. So, a grain of salt and all that.

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends, whenever possible, breast feeding exclusively to 6 months, and as part of the baby's diet to AT LEAST 12 months (see recommendation #6) and furthermore "as long as it is mututally desireable".

To deny a baby healthy food (you do realize that young babies need to eat every 2-3 hours, don't you?) is barbaric. To deny a mother the right to go to a restaurant is draconian.
Which one are you proposing?

As far as your shock at breast feeding a toddler, my 15 month old child (a toddler, by any definition) still takes food from her mother's breast at least twice/day. So what?
Show me one legitimate medical, psychological or behavioral source that says this will in some way affect either my wife or our daughter adversely.

There is a big difference between urinating in public and breast feeding in public. The most significant, of course, would be the odor and the mess. Breast feeding produces none of the first, and only very small amounts of the second if the mother or baby is less than careful. Nothing a small napkin couldn't fix.

Women's breasts serve two purposes. The first is feeding of young. The second is as a secondary sexual trait. Both purposes exist, and can coexist peacefully.
By forgetting that both purposes exist, one shows one's ignorance and immaturity.

Finally, my wife did (and, when necessary, still does) nurse in public. She was and is always discreet and polite about it, but she often did exactly what the doctor ordered and exactly what her baby needed, in public if that is where she is.

Luckily, nobody has ever been foolish enough to say something rude to her while I was around. I'd encourage you, in the future, to look the other way and thoughtfully refrain from saying something you might later regret.

[edit: Congratulations, silence. I had no idea you are a new daddy. Welcome to the club.]

(Edited by mobrul on 01-18-2005 19:12)

I am also in the club of allowing breastfeeding to occur whereever and whenever. I don't think a consititutional ammendment is needed either.

I have born whitness to many public feedings, and guess what, most times you can't tell where the woman is feeding or just holding her child.

If you are really concerned about this then if is your choice to leave the restaurant, but you trying to force someone else away for an action that is completely their business is absurd.

Time to get over your sensabilities.

Dan @ Code Town

I don't think anyone has suggested that lactating mothers should stay home and breast feed. What's been echoed here a few times is that there are times & places for all things. For example if you're at a restaurant and its imperative that a child be fed at that time, why not walk to the bathroom for a little while?

I also don't know why my example of public urination received the reaction it did. Afterall, if a restaurant were to install toilets at each table it would greatly reduce both odor & mess and help relieve people from a perfectly natural body function. Of course no one wants to look at that while they eat though.

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silence said:

So lactating mothers should stay home and breast feed there?

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Why stop there? We should really make menstruating women stay at home or at least carry some kind of sign (not a big one - ping pong paddle size would do) when they are out and about??

Its difficult enough to convince people to give it a go:

www.breastfeeding.nhs.uk

And from that site:

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Myth: Over two thirds (67%) of women believe that the general public find breastfeeding in public unacceptable

Fact: Most people (84%) think it's fine for mothers to breastfeed their babies discreetly in public/in front of others

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The Scottish Parliament recently passed laws to protect a mother's right to breastfeed in public if she wants to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3682824.stm

Its a culturally mediated thing and I am suprised so many people here are against it - is that just a US thing?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

This is one of those things for which there's no easy way to define right or wrong. Some people are bothered by it and some aren't. Sometimes it's difficult to avoid and sometimes it's easily avoidable. The only good solution is for people to be as tolerant as possible. Mothers need to do their best to avoid breastfeeding in public when it's reasonably possible to do so - for the sake of the people who *are* bothered by it, and those who are bothered by it need to be willing to put up with it occasionally since it's not the end of the world.

It seems that there may actually be some women who like to do it in public only for the sake of emphasizing that they have the right to. That's unnecessary and, of course, only hurts their cause.

But there's no strong reason to make it illegal (other than "breasts are bad" which is ridiculous), and certainly no reason to make a constitutional amendment regarding it.


 

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if you're at a restaurant and its imperative that a child be fed at that time, why not walk to the bathroom for a little while?

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So you want her to go and sit in the bathroom for what, twenty minutes or more, to feed her kid? That's ridiculous!

Some of you guys make it sound as though I'm advocating a law banning breast feeding in public. I'm merely suggesting that if its unnecessary to breast feed in public, out of courtesy, it should be avoided.

briggl, its a personal difference, but I don't see anything ridiculous about a women sitting alone for twenty minutes to feed her child. I consider it along side cell phone use. I understand that occasionally calls must be answered at the dinner table, but is it really that ridiculous to excuse yourself and take the call in privacy? To me its just a common courtesy.

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if you're at a restaurant and its imperative that a child be fed at that time, why not walk to the bathroom for a little while?

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I totally agree with briggl.
Do you like eating in the bathroom? Well babies don't like it either, it stinks. Plus breathfeeding is supposed to be as clean as possible, andno need to mention the public bathroom is not the best place to do it.

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I don't see anything ridiculous about a women sitting alone for twenty minutes to feed her child

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But, make her sit in the bathroom to do it? That is what is ridiculous!

Look, I am not saying that a lactating mother cannot go out to eat or go out in public nor am i saying it should be illegal to breast feed I am merely stating that it should not be a constitutional right and that it should not be allowed to be done in a restauraunt. Let me ask you a question. Psychologists have found that sexual tension in males is a cause of many bar room brawls and other such violent acts. And that the release of that tension (something completely necessary and natural) lessens the hostility in the male. So therefore if i am in public and I am feeling some sexual tension is it perfectly alright for me to just whip it out and start jacking off in a public place (say a restauraunt)? Answer: NO! I have to stay home because it could cause a health risk or some other problem. Besides that it i just common courteousy to stay home and do things like that in public. You don't want to see me do that while you eat I wouldn't want to see anyone do that while they eat so i don't make them. I realize that women do not get pleasure from breast feeding it probably hurts and i realize that the baby has to eat thats a simple fact of life. But I shouldn't have to go to a public restuaruant and see someone breast feeding their child. If the mother or infant can't wait till they get home, they should have the decency to go to the bathroom stall and do it or even just the bathroom. Somewhere away from where i am eating/serving food/going to sit someone else there next. How would you like to go and sit down at a booth and accidently sit in some old used up breast milk that the busser didn't see to clean up? You wouldn't, you'd start complaining and griping about it. Therefore get around the whole mess of it by using the restroom or some other comfortable/private place to breast feed your child. And yes Kimsom i am male. That doesn't mean i don't care for children. I don't think women should be stopped from breast feeding, I merely believe there is an appropriate time and place for all things and in the middle of a busy restauruant where somebody is eating is niether the time nor the place for somebody to whip out the breasts and start feeding a baby. By the way Mobrul and Silence before you make me out to be some chauvenistic caveman:
I know that it is a hell of a lot of work to care for a baby, i know they have to eat every 2-3 hours, And i may have misspoke about the toddler, this kid looked to be around 2-3 years old i don't quite know all the baby lingo and probably used a wrong term (i apologise). BUT!: I am not some ogre that believes the only place for a woman is the kitchen. In fact I believe that women have all the same capabilities as men they just have a few differant body parts. And that man (if they can call themselves that) that believes otherwise is a damned fool and should be taken out of the gene pool immediately. So don't go talking to me about acting like women's lib never happened.It shouldn't have had to.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

^ Sangreal, your sentence structure could use a bit of work - that which you posted is almost unreadable. The use of spaces and blank lines to seperate points is a mighty helpful tool. I read it (though I had to really work at it). I realize that English may not be your main language, but seperating ideas and easy reading principles are not exclusive to the english language. I am not asking you to be perfect. Just easier to read.

Now, comparing breastfeeding to jacking off, or urination (as was done in a post before) just are not the same thing! One will not die if one does not jack off (at least, not from the lack of jacking off ). Depriving a child of nurishment because a few (the minority, it would seem) have a problem with it is ridiculous!

And this is the real case in a nutshell here. Some people have a problem with it. Now, I am not aware that anyone is making (i.e. forcing) them to watch! Certainly the mother in question is not walking up to their table at the restaurant and whipping out a breast, squirting milk in every direction, and attempting to stay in their field of vision during the feeding frenzy! If it bothers you, DON'T WATCH! It is not harming anyone (on the contrary, it is benefiting the child!). After all, males kissing one another tends to bother some, as well. Should they then have to go to the bathroom to kiss one another?

We humans eat in public - why is it, that a baby being fed from it's mother is troubling for some? Why is it, that the same people don't seem to have a problem with animals doing it? (At least, I haven't heard of any "uproars" over such).

The case of Breastfeeding vs Urination was already made.

I think most here agree that it should not have anything to do with the Constitution. I do however like what Emps has posted - making it illegal to forbid breastfeeding in public for the mother in question. If you don't like it, look the other way.

unfu*kinbelievable!
I'm sorry Sangreal, but how you can even equate breastfeeding a baby to you strokin' your cock in public?!

How something as basic as feeding a baby can be made to be something dirty and wrong and something that should be hidden, is, as far as I'm concerned, just a symptom of a much larger problem in this country.
It's quite all right to show people being blown to bits or someone having their head chopped off on the nightly new, but women, don't you dare feed your babies in the view of others, cuz it might offend someone.
Ya know what I have to say to that?! Fuuuu*k Yooooouuuu!! Please, get over yourself! [that is directed at the whole uncomfortable public in general and not just you Sangreal].

I'm in complete disbelief that this is even an issue...... Thankfully, I have to go to work. I'm sure I'll have much more to say later.

*walks off shaking her head*

Sucko Baggins - Bilbo's lesser known brother.

Would you not preffer to eat across from a woman breastfeeding than a child crying? Would you tell women in your restaurant to go outside to do it? Or worse, to use your toilets ...

Has a woman ever actually left milk on the seats?

"How would you like to go and sit down at a booth and accidently sit in some old used up breast milk that the busser didn't see to clean up?"
How would they know its breast milk? I wouldnt like to sit on any crap the 'busser' missed.

Sangreal - I want you to think about your "solution" of having a woman go to a restroom to breastfeed. Most restaurants that I frequent have maybe 2-3 stalls total in the women's bathroom. You expect a woman to have to tie up one of those stalls for 15-20 minutes - most likely a handicap stall to gain the most amount of comfort - and inconvenience every other woman in the restaurant because of your delicate sensibilities? I'm sorry, but that is asinine. Toilets are not comfortable seats. Women's restrooms are typically not lounges. Do you expect her to stand? Sangreal, babies are heavy. Stand in one place sometime and hold 2 sacks of flour for 15 minutes in the crook of your arm up against your chest. Now imagine it squirming. Now imagine trying to do this in a busy restroom. If restaurants provided lactating rooms for breastfeeding mothers, you can bet that most women would be more than happy to use a comfortable, clean, private place to feed their baby. A restroom is none of these. Ask the manager at your restaurant if he/she'd be willing to foot the expense of outfitting your restaurant with a lactating room. See how far you get.

Most women I have seen breastfeeding in public are extremely discreet about the whole process. So much so that it just looks like she's holding the baby real close unless you stare. I agree with Lacuna - the fact that this is even an issue speaks to a much larger problem in this country. I find it absolutely fascinating that you see pictures of women on supermarket magazines exposing more of their boobs than a breastfeeding mother - and somehow that's okay. But a women tries to feed her baby - something that is beneficial to the health of both mother and baby and suddenly people are offended by boobs.
[edit]bad spelling[/edit]

As stated previously: if it makes you uncomfortable Don't Watch!!!

(Edited by Moon Dancer on 01-19-2005 17:44)

I just want to know, if the the breast milk is used up, how could it be on the seat?

First.
I'm for breastfeeding in public.
I could easily think of a bunch of things tagged as normal that I'd rather keep out of my view in a resturant...

Second.
I do believe that the majority of women prefer to keep their breasts out of public view, hence discretion is natural and if they can move out of focus, they will.

Third.
This:

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... And that's only a problem if minors are around...

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never ceases to amaze me...
In the eyes of a minor/child, breasts are a totally natural part of a woman/mother and not seen as obscene or offensive unless we, the "adults" put that thought in their head! I have yet to see a child react in any way near the reactions a grownup often do when a breast pops into view.

Take the Janet Jackson incident, in the eye of a child, what could possibly be so horrible about that? And what would be so horrible about a minor catching a glimpse of some skin and a nipple before the child is plugged in.

Granted, a young teenager with gallons of raging hormones pouring out their ears might react on it, but a normal kid? Phhlluuuueeeesss...

Why the h**l should we project our warped "grownup" views on a visible nipple onto our children?
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

babies are minor btw

DmS is exactly correct.
I know it is anecdotal, but there was a time when we (my family) were at a neighbor's house for a dinner party. My wife stepped into a study, with our baby, to nurse. It wasn't complete privacy, but it was a room not being used at the moment. One of the children there, age 7, saw my wife and daughter sitting alone and was curious.
"Whatcha doin'?"
My wife: "I'm feeding my baby."
*Thinks for a second* "From your belly button?"
"No honey, not my belly button."
"Oh."
She hung around for another minute, got bored, went back to playing with the other kids.
The child didn't think twice about the situation.

If my wife would have made a big deal about it, that child would have made a big deal about it. Since the rational adult didn't make a fuss, there must be nothing of interest going on.

I just want to clarify, to ensure that my views are not lumped in with some of the things posted above.

I do not in any way equate breast feeding with such things as urination or masturbation.

I do not find in "gross" or offensive.

I do not think that new mothers should be penned up or sent to the bathroom to feed.

If the baby needs to be fed....well then it needs to be fed.

I think the dinner table at a restaraunt is not the best place to do so, if it can be reasonably avoided. That's just a personal feeling. I would not by any means suggest a woman not be allowed to do so.

I would simply, as a personal prefrence, rather it didn't happen then and there.

~shrug~

Do some of you even read these posts before replying?

My goodness briggl & kimson, you two make it sound as though I'm attempting to pass legislation to forcefully remove lactating women from public. Look what I have written: "merely suggesting", "if its unnecessary", and "it should be avoided". I'm not saying that women be relegated to the bathroom. I'm saying if its possible to avoid doing it in public, it should be avoided. It's a little thing known as having manners.

What's so ridiculous about being in a bathroom, or a lobby or another room for that manner? When you change a child in a restaurant do you just drop his pants and lay him down on the table? It's doubtful any other patrons would be able to smell whatever was secreted from the body and anything unsanitary could be cleaned up easily - yet we don't do that. Or at least my family doesn't. The child is taken into another room to be changed.

What I find amazing however is the total inability to equate similar actions. Take the examples given thus far in the discussion. Urination, ejaculation, and changing a child are all natural responses by the body. They are all substances being excreted by body parts that are typically covered up. None of which causes any terrible odors or is overly unsanitary in this day and age. Yet its amazing that some of you can view one form gross & another acceptable. If one's gross they should all be gross - and vice versa.

I have to disagree with you vehemently on the point of "changing" a diaper and equating it with breastfeeding, Jestah. First of all, breastfeeding produces little if no oder. Changing a diaper and cleaning the crap up does (after the first 2~3 months, that is). In fact, I can think of times when I had to change the diaper (yup, I can, and do change diapers!) that the stench almost got me (and I have a pretty strong stomach, believe me! ).

But the point is this - Urine and Feeces do tend to carry unwanted smells and are considered waste material of the human body. Ejaculate in the case of a man and secretions of the vagina (and sometimes ejaculate, depending) of a woman are not (at least from a natural point of view) meant to be a prime source of nourishment (and neither is urine or crap).

Also, the act of those bodily secretions does not normally include 2 humans (in the case of masturbation, it may). The main point is, urination, defecation, and ejaculation are not primary ways of feeding a baby. In fact, seeing a mother nurture her child is among the most sacred of moments of human caring, IMHO. And breastfeeding is a great way to nurture a baby, not to mention a natural and healthy method of doing so. I don't see breastfeeding a baby in public equating with bad manners. Most mothers do it as descreetly as possible, anyway (that I think was mentioned before). Bad manners would be stripping to the waist, leaving breastmilk that had quelled out of the infants mouth just lying around, and squirting others with it.

I must also add, that I was hugely relieved to see DL's 2nd post. I can understand that it may be something that some may not like to see - and I have nothing against those who do not like to see it. It totally shocked the shit out of me, to see DL posting what he posted in his first post without a clarifier!

As I said, one is not forced to watch. And in any event, AFAIK it is not all that often that one does witness breastfeeding. I can count the number of times I can remember seeing it on one hand.

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Jestah: What's so ridiculous about being in a bathroom, or a lobby or another room for that manner?

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To reiterate my previous post, most restaurant bathrooms are simply not suitable for breastfeeding. They are busy and cramped and not designed with a breastfeeding woman in mind. Would you want to go and sit on a toilet and eat your dinner? Probably not. Most bathrooms have been outfitted with suitable equiptment to change a baby. What's the difference between a woman breastfeeding in a public lobby in full view and at a table in full view? None, really. Of course if the act of breastfeeding itself makes you nauseous, that may be a different story. As I mentioned before, if suitable facilities were set up at restaruants most women would use them. The fact of the matter is, such facilities do not exist in most restaurants.

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babies are minor btw

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So are the "young teenagers with gallons of raging hormones pouring out their ears" that DmS refers to, which are the ones I was also referring to.




(Edited by briggl on 01-20-2005 04:27)

The breastfeeding part isn't really bothering.. it's the burping afterwards that pushes me over the top

To make it constitutional is IMHO silly. All that's needed is a bit of tact and consideration (from both parts).

And I agree. I'd rather have dinner with the "Breastfeeding Frenzy Fanatics" than doing it next to a single screaming rampage kid...

..but that just might be me..

Jestah:

"young teenagers with gallons of raging hormones pouring out their ears"

If a hormone laden teenager gets turned on seeing an infant suck a tit, that teenager has bigger problems than hormones running wild.

"if its unnecessary"

Come on now. Do you honestly beleive a mother would breast feed in public if it was not necessary? Surely not.

"It's a little thing known as having manners."

Nope. Nothing to do with manners... nothing to do with constitutional rights...a separate room for mom & babe..whether breast-feeding is best or not etc.

It has everything to do with how you and others, react to this 'sight.'

Sangreal finds it "gross and disgusting .." pretty much the same as a jerkoff jerking off at the table next. And you, put it right up there with somebody pissing or pinching a loaf in your line of sight while you put something other than a tit in your mouth.

It's reasonable to assume 'gross and disgusting' also works for you when it comes to public breast feeding. Hopefully the cellfone won't ring.

So what we are talking about here is your response/reaction to your 'comfort zone' being grossly assaulted. Well, no one is responsible for what does or does not make you comfortable. Not the mother, not the child. Nobody has control over your comfort level nor how you react to anything... period. If you were in a restuarant and saw 2 guys kissing... I'm betting your response would be pretty much the same. Not where I can see it please. (Not putting words in your mouth but I suspect I'm not far off. )


DL: "but I do personally feel it is inappropriate"

Once felt the same and my first experience with this breast-feeding in public was indeed in a 'dining out' scenario...pretty much the epitome of fine dining 'upper upper-crust' if you will ...private rooms, dedicated wait-staff...food to match... a bill that 30 years ago, would today, cover my mortgage for at least 4 months and there directly across the table...an infant suckling. I was more than a bit choked..you might say =) and I did right there and then..tell the mother...a good friend... how I felt that this display was completely 'inappropriate.' Obviously I don't feel that way now and haven't for a very very long time. And no... I wasn't picking up the bill. =)

LOOK! I am not saying that breast feeding shouldn't be allowed! I am just saying there is a better place to do it than a restauraunt, I don't care if it's some place that serves cordon bleu or if it's Mcdonalds a former teacher of mine came in with her infant and she didn't have to breast feed it. Obviously she has some system to get around it. I realize that jacking off isn't breast feeding my point was that just because something is (or can be argued as) natural and necessary doesn't mean you should do it in public. It is natural to have sex and it is necessary to the survival of the human race for that to happen but MOST people do that in their home. I also realize that nothing is shown with breast feeding but i still find it gross and so does all of the FEMALE staff at the restauraunt I work at. Yes i did take a poll. And webshaman maybe my english skills weren't the best with this post i'm sorry I wasn't aware that i was being critiqued for my use of the language. Yes i have been in a woman's restroom (too clean it) i realize there are only two to three stalls that is why i suggested the room/booth made specifically for that purpose. I am sorry if i made it sound crude but you could always but a couch or something in there to make it comfortable. Breast feeding is completely and totally necessary. But there are better things to clog up our court system with. It shouldn't have to be, women have the right to breast feed, there is no way to stop them. It shouldn't be illegal but there is a time and a place. A restuaraunt is niether. Moon Dancer, I agree with what you said, more or less. I don't think that breast feeding is a bad thing it shouldn't be done in public though. Again I admit i was out of line comparing it to jacking off. Maybe a restroom is not the best option, what was meant behind that statement is that if the child is hungry just take it somewhere in private, like you car or someplce 'suitable'. I wouldn't know the requirments of that seeing as how i have never breast fed. By the way what is so bad about breast feeding the child BEFORE you come to the restaurant? Even though babies don't go on set schedules that should still give you time to eat without having to breast feed the kid. And (oops shouldn't begin a sentence with and) By the way Nimraw, you aren't alone, there is nothing worse than a rampaging kid running around a restauruant because the parent(s) can't control him or her. Try balancing to large trays of food and not tripping over them if you think sitting by one is bad.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

I guess i see little bit of your point that you can't control when the baby needs to eat and that the babe shouldn't have to starve. I just don't think that the government should be wasting time with giving women a right that they have already been given by nature. Breast feeding should not be done in public whether or not i find it gross (which i do if it is in public) or not. Breast feeding is a perfectly okay thing to do if in private but there are health issues that can be considered when in a place of public eating.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

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Breast feeding should not be done in public whether or not i find it gross (which i do if it is in public) or not.

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This is it right here Sangreal.

Just for a moment.... forget about everything else you've written... forget about the rest and just read that ^ a couple of times.

Your whole position is '...should not be done in public..' because you find it gross not 'whether you find it gross. BECAUSE.

So...tell tell me why? Give me your definition of 'gross' as it relates to breast feeding in public... and don't use the word gross =) and don't get into all the other stuff with rooms, constitution bla bla... just define the 'gross' of it all. That is all we're talking about here

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Breast feeding is a perfectly okay thing to do if in private but there are health issues that can be considered when in a place of public eating

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What health issues? Is the mother going to get breast milk all over your food or something? There are no health issues involved unless the restaurant is dirty and the baby might get sick!

Mobrul: Thanks. It's a great feeling. I wonder how many of those opposed to breast feeding in public have had to actually raise an infant.

For some reason every time I come back to post something my points usually get made for me (Edit: note briggl's post above). Personally, my wife and I do find it a bit embarrassing to breast feed in public and make every effort to avoid it: feeding the baby before we go anywhere and being discreet when he's hungry. Now, even though I now think it's wrong to feel uncomfortable when someone else is breastfeeding, I can understand how it may make some people uncomfortable. However, I think "gross" is too strong of a term.

NoJive, I think you've stated the crux of the issue.

Sangreal: As I said before, take this with a grain of salt since this is not personal and I don't mean to pick on you, but let me just address some of your points.

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And webshaman maybe my english skills weren't the best with this post i'm sorry I wasn't aware that i was being critiqued for my use of the language.

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Your english skills per se weren't being critiqued. The point is that it is hard to read a large block of text and try to get some type of coherent thought from it. This is why we use paragraphs so separate ideas and points of logic.

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By the way Mobrul and Silence before you make me out to be some chauvenistic caveman

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Perhaps that was a bad choice of words and I apologize for that.

Addressing the whole legal side of breastfeeding

"Te purpose of legislation is NOT to legalize it, but to clarify the fact the fact that women have the right to breastfeed in public, or that it is not a criminal offense, such as indecent exposure." - source

This statement sums up my views on legislation. Since certain people, no names mentioned, think that a breastfeeding mother should have her actions curtailed for an action that is not illegal,legislature becomes necessary to explicitly state the legality of the action.

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but there are health issues that can be considered when in a place of public eating

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There are no health issues involved with breastfeeding a baby in public. The only way you you'd be able to contract anything would be to lick the breast milk off that table, and I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

Back to NoJive's assessment...
Again, the whole crux of the matter rests on what exactly you find so upsetting about it.

Now, even with all of that, I willl admit that you are entitled to your opinion of whether or not you find the act uncomfortable. However, I strongly disagree with the idea of modifying someone else's behaviour based on your distaste.

(last quote, I promise)

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but i still find it gross and so does all of the FEMALE staff at the restauraunt I work at

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Whether or not women agree with you in no way validates your point. How many breastfeeding women with infants agree with you?



(Edited by silence on 01-20-2005 19:49)

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Mobrul: Thanks. It's a great feeling. I wonder how many of those opposed to breast feeding in public have had to actually raise an infant.

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While, again, I need to make clear that I'm not opposed to breast feeding in public, I feel there are times and places that it is not entirely appropriate.

I generally think "the less 'public' the public place is, the better".

I have raised an infant (she's 10 now). I would generally have her to myself everyday from waking until the afternoon when I went to work, which of course means lot's of feeding. While I inderstand a lot of people are very firmly atached to natural breast feeding at all times, baby bottle technology has grown immensely

And again, before the pitchforks and torhces come out - I'm only stating my personal view, and not lobbying for legislation, or chaining women to a feeding room...

I must admit I'm a little surprised by how vehement people get on both sides of this issue.

Okay, the consensus I seem to be getting is that breast feeding in public is something that some people do not want to see. I understand this. It isn't an issue of indecency, but an issue of properness (I think I made that word up).

I am a guy, so I have no idea what it is like to breast feed a child. I hopefully will never know. If my future wife wants to breast feed our child in public I am sure I will have no problem with it. I will have already seen her breasts. The thing is that many people in the restaurant have not, and quite frankly I don't want to see the breast, or even part of a breast of a woman but my future wife's.

I know that there is not much shown, little if any mess, etc. But the fact is that it is implied like wearing dresses that don't completely cover them. Unfortunately, these things of wearing more revealing clothing in public, acting in ways that hint at sexual activities, etc. are getting more common. I do realize that the only thing that are common in breast feeding and sex is the breasts, but the same can be said about the male organ. It has two jobs, and seeing one sometimes, to some people, hints at the other.

I guess, in short, what I am trying to say is that it is indecent, but about as harmful as wearing revealing clothes. Those things are becoming more popular, and I guess there isn't really anything to stop them. I don't like it, but then there are lots of things that are "new age" that I don't like.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

No, it is not "indecent". That's the point. It is your value judgment that introduces the problem of indecency. That's the sort of puritanical crap I was talking about in my first post. That is: sex = bad : breasts = sex : seeing breasts = bad. I didn't know we had amish posters in here.

You don't want anyone else to see your wife's breasts? I'm pretty sure everybody in the delivery room will have seen much, much more. Unless you want to do the procedure blindfolded in the dark.

And breasts have nothing in common with the reproductive organs since they, technically, serve only one function: to feed babies. Whereas the reproductive organs are there for, uh, reproduction?!

Not to mention the fact that anyone who finds breast feeding in any way sexual needs to a.) get some help, and b.) stop sending spam ( ).



(Edited by silence on 01-20-2005 22:33)

Maybe i am not being clear, or maybe i am just a dumba$$. I am NOT saying breast feeding should be illegal. I am NOT saying that breast feeding is a bad thing. I AM saying that while breast feeding is the best option for the baby, if there is an instance where you absolutely, postitively must breast feed in public because the baby will not take formula please use discretion.

Now to address another part in which I was not clear. That is may fault i went on a tangent. Whether or not it should be allowed in public is clearly a very heated debate and a stalemate sense i will be unwilling to back down any farther and i don't anybody else will either. But why make it a constitutional right when nature already gave women that right? It seems redundant. This is what i was actually going for before i went on the tangent. oh well sorry if i have made enemies of anyone no offense was meant.
By the way,
Gross: anything lacking tact, taste, or discretion.
Webster's:

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

Kudos on making your posts easier to read. Thanks.

Unfortunately, you seem to be contradicting yourself in your paragraphs. On the one hand you admit that if breastfeeding must be done in public then discretion must be used, and I can somewhat agree with that.

However, in the following paragraph you say that "whether or not it should be allowed in public is clearly a very heated debate" and that "I will be unwilling to back down any farther[sic]".

So, on the one hand you admit that it's okay as long as discretion is used and then you state your position that it should not be allowed in public.

This is why it needs to be explicitly stated as a right under law (not necessarily the constitution): so that this freedom is not infringed upon. Nature didn't give women the right to breastfeed, only the ability.

If you pass laws against breastfeeding who gets charged, the Mom or the baby? Both maybe?

"When breastfeeding is outlawed, only outlaws will get milk!"

.......I new that baby was trouble from the moment I laid eyes on her, officer.



And we need to enforce manditory sentencing to reduce the number of repeat offenders- Use a tit, Go to jail...

(Edited by norm on 01-22-2005 18:40)

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silence said:

You don't want anyone else to see your wife's breasts?

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No I do not. Those breasts are for my wife, me, and my children, not anyone else.

As for the whole delievery room thing, that is medical. I am going to be a doctor, so I will probably deliever my children anyway. The thing is that there is a doctor-patient relationship that is different in the clinical rooms. Breasts to a doctor in a hospital are a part of anatomy, just like the reproductive organs, just like the lungs, etc. The thing is that those tests are done in private, not in public. I think my point is a little spread out here, so if you can't group it please tell me and I will revise it.

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silence said:

since they, technically, serve only one function: to feed babies.

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Technically. But tell me silence, when you see a pair of breasts what do you think about?

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silence said:

It is your value judgment that introduces the problem of indecency.

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Well, yes. I happen to think that breast feeding is one of many things that are indecent to do in public. Some others are: physical affection from kissing to sex, urinating, flagelance, burping. It goes on for a while. You see, those things I listed have a time and place for them. They aren't bad, just need to be controlled. Just like breast feeding. I understand that it is natural and that it needs to be done, I just hope that more people can plan better like your wife does. The only thing is that some people don't, and for the sake of those who do think it is indecent for public, should plan better.

Interesting point norm.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

So, now kissing my wife in public is indecent? Man, you've got a real problem!

Gideon: Just so we are on the same page - when you say "flagelance" do you mean flagellation or flatulence or weird combination of them both?

___________________
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if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

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tell me silence, when you see a pair of breasts what do you think about?

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Hmm, well, I'm pretty sure I have a normal human reaction to bare breasts, but when breasts are exposed for the purpose of breastfeeding than that is an entirely different matter.

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Breasts to a doctor in a hospital are a part of anatomy

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And I suppose doctors aren't human. Either that or knowledge of the human anatomy makes a big difference.

But, these are minor points.

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You see, those things I listed have a time and place for them. They aren't bad, just need to be controlled. Just like breast feeding.

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We have totally different ideas about what is indecent, and I'll leave it that. Agree to disagree, if you like.

However, I do agree that in the interests of politeness, discretion is called for.

My point is that such control should stay with the party in question and not with any outside person or authority.

Whew! Thank God this is in phil and silly!

This is a joke, right?

I love humor. And, I cannot believe someone would expend energy writing crap about breastfeeding being offensive with a straight face... err, keyboard. Whatever.

Thankfully, others have eloquently put forth the idea that there is nothing abhorrent in the act of breastfeeding.

If, however you really have a problem with it? Please allow me to respond in troglodyte terms appropriate to the original post:

.... GET OVER IT! ....

The equating of urinating, and cock stroking, to breastfeeding? Holy Shit! Are there really people that fucking ignorant? Go back to the primordial ooze! You just aint ready yet!

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Is This Thing On?

Webbing; the stuff that sticks to your face.

Would you please open your ears? Please? I am not saying that breast feeding is bad. It's a wonderful thing and one of the best OPTIONS for the baby. I am merely saying:

1.It is already a woman's natural right to breast feed. Why bother wasting everyone's time putting it in the constitution?
2.Breast feeding is a good thing but there are things you do in public and things you don't. Breast feeding is one of the things you should try not to.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

By the way, as far as being ignorant. I have at least listened to the arguments and valid points of the other side with an open mind which is a lot more than i can say for some people in this forum. I already admitted that that was a poor example so just drop that please. I don't find breast feeding indecent or abhorent (to hate something extremely) i merely don't think it is appropriate to be done in public. The breast feeding part was NOT my problem it was the PUBLIC part that WAS. It was other people in this forum who have made breast feeding out to be my problem, not I.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

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2.Breast feeding is a good thing but there are things you do in public and things you don't. Breast feeding is one of the things you should try not to.

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Says who?

It is that type of "blanket statement" that requires a law protecting a womens right to breastfeed her infant, irregardless of where they are at the moment.

I personally have never seen a mother blatently breastfeeding in public. I have noticed a few that have done so discreetly.

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WebShaman said:

I personally have never seen a mother blatently breastfeeding in public. I have noticed a few that have done so discreetly.

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Ditto. One day I've seen a mother breast feeding her child in the suburb. Nobody, even the few children nearby, seemed shocked. When people realized she was actually breastfeeding her baby, some were astonished, others were amused but I've seen or heard no one who was shocked.



(Edited by poi on 01-25-2005 15:47)

That is all i am meaning to say web shaman. Women should and alread do have the right to breast feed. But if some women can manage to do it discreetly why can't others?

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

I guess i just wasn't clear and again i apologise. The mothers that i saw in the restauraunt were not discreet at all. They weren't just sitting at their own booth they were up and walking around and were not being careful whatsoever. I guess it is not that bad to breast feed in public as long as your careful about it. There are worse things you could do in public, like jacking off. Again sorry about the confusion/witheld information, guess i am no better than Bush and the american's screwed up government. Oh well there's always more than one moron in america, at least I am not alone...

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

??

I have never seen, nor heard of, a woman that has not done it "discreetly". What meaning do you consider discreet to have?

oops I meant "subway" not "suburb".
And nobody told me my post was completely nut. Thank you.

Sangie, Again with the jacking off?

Get real!

Don't apologize for not being clear. Your point is crystal clear. You may want to apologize for the baseness of it but don't worry, we know where you're coming from. YOU are a childish pervert who can't seperate his loins from his eyes. That's ok. But, it's people like you who make it necessary for there to be legal protections of basic human rights.

...

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Gideon said:

Those breasts are for my wife, me, and my children, not anyone else.

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He he, I missed this one. That's good! They're for you? Gid? Really? So now there is chattel on the chattel you wish to posess?

Can we go back to burning people at the stake?

There is some property next door that I would like to own. And, the law stated back then if you were complicit in witchery you forfeit the right to own land... Naturally the one "protecting" us from these heathens should be the one to 'manage' that said property.

Ahh, the good ole days!

______________
Is This Thing On?

Webbing; the stuff that sticks to your face.

So what you're really saying, Sangreal, (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you don't necessarily have a problem with people nursing in public, but with people (women) being rude about it.
Yes?

I don't disagree with you.
BUT, people are rude about a lot of things.

Just today:
*I've seen more than a score of people run red lights
*a woman driving 45mph in the right most lane on the interstate
*the guy at the sandwich shop gave me incorrect change (by $10), then told me to f***off, take [my] sandwich and get out
*my new boss (she has less than1 week on the job) told me one of my goals is to "learn HTML, so [I] can work on the website"

Tons of rude things happen every day. Is breastfeeding REALLY where we want to focus our legal energies?
Maybe we should just leave the 99.9% of polite mothers to feed their babies in peace.

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Is breastfeeding REALLY where we want to focus our legal energies?

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Certainly not.

But I beleive that was part of the original point - why make this a constitutional issue? There are far more important things to address, and it simply does not warrant the attention of a constitutional ammendment, no matter which direction.

Thank you DL. That is what i was getting at.

Mobrul-
First off 99.9% of the general public aren't polite in general. Which is why i didn't say polite. (not meaning to attack had rough couple of days, very tired out). I just meant that if you have to feed in public be CAREFUL. If your rude about it that is a differant issue.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte