Topic: Second Guessing Myself $Pages that link to <a href="https://ozoneasylum.com/backlink?for=24723" title="Pages that link to Topic: Second Guessing Myself" rel="nofollow" >Topic: Second Guessing Myself\$

Author	Thread
NotLikely Neurotic (0) Inmate Newly admitted From: Insane since: Jan 2005	posted 01-18-2005 18:28 Hi everyone, this is my first post in quite some time. I love the community here and have been finding myself lurking for a week or two. I had an old username but I can't think of the username or password! I just became a co-owner of a new company. The first thing I want to do is revamp the web site to something that represents us more clearly, and of course something more visually appealing. You can see the old web site at http://www.oatmealdesign.com If you wouldn't mind, could you check out what I have done so far with the new design. I'm looking for critique on the design, I know that the code probably won't validate. Keep in mind that it is complete yet. The flash promo bar is going to have the stickman animated, knocking on the screen, scratching his head etc. None of the links work yet either. Anyway, the URL is http://www.oatmealdesign.com/V2 Also, the other owner of the company wants something more along the lines of this: http://www.oatmealdesign.com/mockup.jpg What do you think? Which do you prefer? Thanks!!!
Shifter Bipolar (III) Inmate From: Mesquite, TX 75149 Insane since: Aug 2000	posted 01-18-2005 19:34 I'm not a big code junkie..but I do know what I think looks good =D I actually like the first (old) one pretty well. Of the other two, well I think they are both Eyepleasing..but I like the first better (the one you made and like). Sorry so vague..half asleep here..
WarMage Maniac (V) Mad Scientist From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000	posted 01-18-2005 21:43 The code is terrible. Not just "Not going to validate" bad, but "Hey I am still stuck coding like they would have in the early 90's" bad. Fix up your code and you will get more people to take a look see at your site. As for the overall look, origional and V2 seem to be the nicest. You have a good logo, the stick figure is killing me though, and killing as in making me want to die, not as in making me want to laugh. You could make that work better. Dan @ Code Town
Rinswind 2th Maniac (V) Inmate From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence Insane since: Jul 2000	posted 01-18-2005 23:42 First off all the V2 version breaks on a very decent and well known modern browser (firefox 1.0) this is bad realy bad. I put my magic-digital-marker on some break points. This can been seen in this image: http://www.xs4all.nl/~rinswind/screenshot.gif Second if you used semanticly correct code with a decent sylesheet you could use al three designs and let the user switch them at will. Third dump the table. They are obsolete old fashioned hacks used when nothing else was capable. Maybe if i have some time i will put together the twin brother whitout tables. Just to make my point. Now lets talk about the code -The <html> tag is missing its doctype. This however is neede since modern (IE6, Mozzila, Firefox, Opera,Camino, Safari) use this doctype to switch into the best mode for viewing the page as the designer has intended. -The headers are just normal text styled as header. Older browsers and people with personal or switched off style sheets will not rcognize this as header. The html language has some very good tags for this <h1> till <h6> which can be styled in your style sheet very easily. And can be recognized as headers even when no or personal style sheets are used. -Why do you use constructions like this: <td bgcolor="#295487"><div align="center" class="menulinks"> <div align="left">PORTFOLIO</div> </div></td> You are setting the backgound color fom the table-cell (this is an aproach you could use with an big but to it) Inside this table-cell you put an <div> which you align in the center from table-cell (this made me wonder..) and which is classified as "menulinks" The weirdest thing happens in the inside div which is positioned to the left in the outer div. Since both the table-cell and the outer div are empty the inner div will take all the space inside the outer div and the table-cell. Thus all the dubious placing and hokus-pokes whit the three elemenst is completly obsolete. The inner div will completly fiil both the outside div and the table-cell. In my opinon this makes both the outer div and the table cell useless. The inner div it self could hold all the info from the table-cell and the outer div. Even the inner div itself could be removed since ALL html-elements could be styled. Just an styled link with place and background would do the trick. Or you could use a list with links and style the whole list as a menu. In your stylesheet i saw another thing: All you text classes use :"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" Just put this in the body part from the stylesheet. This makes it possible to switch the fontype with just one line. Remember the C from CSS stands for cascading which means all html elements inside other elements inherit non specified styles from the outer element. Everything inside the body element is inherinting from the body element. For more info on CSS see our CSS Good luck ------------------------------ Support Justice for Pat Richard
NotLikely Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate From: Insane since: Jan 2005	posted 01-19-2005 00:05 Thanks for the replies. I know the code is bad, I guess I didn't realise how bad it really was. It's quite humbling actually The site is actually done in dreamweaver without even looking at the code. I haven't hand coded a site in almost 2 years. And here I was thinking that Dreamweaver was great in areas that Frontpage sucked in. Rinswind 2th, I would very interested in seeing the CSS'izized version of the site if you get time. Then I can sort of go through and see how it's done. Also, for one reason or another you cant see the Flash portion in Firefox and it's pulling everything to the left. Off-topic, what is the market-share of Firefox? (Edited by NotLikely on 01-19-2005 00:08)
Rinswind 2th Maniac (V) Inmate From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence Insane since: Jul 2000	posted 01-19-2005 00:47 Actually i don't know the FF market share. I could give you some statistics about that: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp --> The most understandable http://www.webreference.com/stats/browser.html http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html But these stats change every hour er even every second you could not conclude anything from these stats. Most importantly what you could conclude is that there are lots off different browsers outthere. And they all should be able to visit your page an get to the content. There is basicly two ways to achieve this: 1) The bad way: Ignore all those different browsers and design for a specific on. 2) The better way: Stick to the standards as close as posible and hope for the best. Most modern browsers should be able to show an standard compliant website, however some do have some serious quirks and glitches. For info in web standards take a look here: www.w3c.org ---> This organisation makes the standards www.w3schools.com ---> This organisation explains them www.alistapart.com ---> These people design with them and give some cool examples. For info on browser Quircks see: http://www.quirksmode.org/ Don't design around the quirks, but when you notice some unwanted behaviour in your site check if it could be a quirck and what to do with it. ------------------------------ Support Justice for Pat Richard
DL-44 Maniac (V) Inmate From: under the bed Insane since: Feb 2000	posted 01-19-2005 01:08 I don't have any problem with the layout breaking in firefox, and I see the flash just fine. Not sure hwat's going on there... The code, however, is absolutely atrocious. This layout shoudl really be a breeze using proper XHTML and CSS without a tabled layout - it has none of the pitfalls which tend to make things more complicated (the whole 3-columns-of-even-lengths issue, etc...) The example you posted is far more attractive than the mockup version. Don't have the attention span to get too specific, but the mockup image is not a very inviting layout. it's constricted and dull. the example you made, on the other hand, is open, flexible, inviting. it has a light feel. fwiw.
NotLikely Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate From: Insane since: Jan 2005	posted 01-19-2005 16:35 I did the CSS box tutorial late last night on Guru's Network, so that's what I'm going to use for the final design of the site. It is actually very cool way to do it and I guess you could say my eyes have been opened! I want to nail down the design aspect though, are there any more opinions on which to use? I really prefer V2, but I need to make some compromises with the other owner and use some of his ideas too.
DL-44 Maniac (V) Inmate From: under the bed Insane since: Feb 2000	posted 01-19-2005 18:47 I really find nothing in his design that would in any way add to the positive aspects in yours. IMO, comprimizing between the two would simpyl be lessening the effectiveness of your design for the sake of someone's ego - and that's bad.
Rinswind 2th Maniac (V) Inmate From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence Insane since: Jul 2000	posted 01-21-2005 19:46 Taken a second look the site looks ok now, same computer same browser. Yesterday i took a look an an other comp with the same browser looks ok too. So something was wrong on my side off the line. So i need to make some excuses for the first part of my comments. I have a little bit more time this weekend so i get you an css version off your site. ------------------------------ Support Justice for Pat Richard
Rinswind 2th Maniac (V) Inmate From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence Insane since: Jul 2000	posted 01-22-2005 18:15 As promised: http://www.xs4all.nl/~rinswind/V2-Redesign_07.html Beware it's not exactly the same, not finished, buggy and it breaks in any resolution below 1024*768. ------------------------------ Support Justice for Pat Richard (Edited by Rinswind 2th on 01-22-2005 18:16)

Topic: Second Guessing Myself\$

Author

Thread

NotLikely
Neurotic (0) Inmate
Newly admitted

From:
Insane since: Jan 2005

posted 01-18-2005 18:28

Hi everyone, this is my first post in quite some time. I love the community here and have been finding myself lurking for a week or two. I had an old username but I can't think of the username or password!

I just became a co-owner of a new company. The first thing I want to do is revamp the web site to something that represents us more clearly, and of course something more visually appealing. You can see the old web site at http://www.oatmealdesign.com

If you wouldn't mind, could you check out what I have done so far with the new design. I'm looking for critique on the design, I know that the code probably won't validate. Keep in mind that it is complete yet. The flash promo bar is going to have the stickman animated, knocking on the screen, scratching his head etc. None of the links work yet either.

Anyway, the URL is http://www.oatmealdesign.com/V2

Also, the other owner of the company wants something more along the lines of this:
http://www.oatmealdesign.com/mockup.jpg

What do you think? Which do you prefer?

Thanks!!!

Shifter
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Mesquite, TX 75149
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted 01-18-2005 19:34

I'm not a big code junkie..but I do know what *I* think looks good =D

I actually like the first (old) one pretty well. Of the other two, well I think they are both Eyepleasing..but I like the first better (the one you made and like).

Sorry so vague..half asleep here..

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted 01-18-2005 21:43

The code is terrible. Not just "Not going to validate" bad, but "Hey I am still stuck coding like they would have in the early 90's" bad.

Fix up your code and you will get more people to take a look see at your site.

As for the overall look, origional and V2 seem to be the nicest. You have a good logo, the stick figure is killing me though, and killing as in making me want to die, not as in making me want to laugh. You could make that work better.

Dan @ Code Town

Rinswind 2th
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted 01-18-2005 23:42

First off all the V2 version breaks on a very decent and well known modern browser (firefox 1.0) this is bad realy bad. I put my magic-digital-marker on some break points. This can been seen in this image:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rinswind/screenshot.gif

Second if you used semanticly correct code with a decent sylesheet you could use al three designs and let the user switch them at will.

Third dump the table. They are obsolete old fashioned hacks used when nothing else was capable.
Maybe if i have some time i will put together the twin brother whitout tables. Just to make my point.

Now lets talk about the code
-The <html> tag is missing its doctype. This however is neede since modern (IE6, Mozzila, Firefox, Opera,Camino, Safari) use this doctype to switch into the best mode for viewing the page as the designer has intended.
-The headers are just normal text styled as header. Older browsers and people with personal or switched off style sheets will not rcognize this as header. The html language has some very good tags for this <h1> till <h6> which can be styled in your style sheet very easily. And can be recognized as headers even when no or personal style sheets are used.
-Why do you use constructions like this:
<td bgcolor="#295487"><div align="center" class="menulinks">
<div align="left">PORTFOLIO</div>
</div></td>

You are setting the backgound color fom the table-cell (this is an aproach you could use with an big but to it)
Inside this table-cell you put an <div> which you align in the center from table-cell (this made me wonder..)
and which is classified as "menulinks"
The weirdest thing happens in the inside div which is positioned to the left in the outer div.
Since both the table-cell and the outer div are empty the inner div will take all the space inside the outer div and the table-cell. Thus all the dubious placing and hokus-pokes whit the three elemenst is completly obsolete.
The inner div will completly fiil both the outside div and the table-cell. In my opinon this makes both the outer div and the table cell useless.
The inner div it self could hold all the info from the table-cell and the outer div.
Even the inner div itself could be removed since ALL html-elements could be styled. Just an styled link with place and background would do the trick. Or you could use a list with links and style the whole list as a menu.

In your stylesheet i saw another thing:
All you text classes use :"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"
Just put this in the body part from the stylesheet. This makes it possible to switch the fontype with just one line. Remember the C from CSS stands for cascading which means all html elements inside other elements inherit non specified styles from the outer element. Everything inside the body element is inherinting from the body element.

For more info on CSS see our CSS
Good luck

------------------------------
Support Justice for Pat Richard

NotLikely
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jan 2005

posted 01-19-2005 00:05

Thanks for the replies. I know the code is bad, I guess I didn't realise how bad it really was. It's quite humbling actually

The site is actually done in dreamweaver without even looking at the code. I haven't hand coded a site in almost 2 years. And here I was thinking that Dreamweaver was great in areas that Frontpage sucked in.

Rinswind 2th, I would very interested in seeing the CSS'izized version of the site if you get time. Then I can sort of go through and see how it's done. Also, for one reason or another you cant see the Flash portion in Firefox and it's pulling everything to the left.

Off-topic, what is the market-share of Firefox?

(Edited by NotLikely on 01-19-2005 00:08)

Rinswind 2th
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted 01-19-2005 00:47

Actually i don't know the FF market share. I could give you some statistics about that:
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp --> The most understandable
http://www.webreference.com/stats/browser.html
http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html

But these stats change every hour er even every second you could not conclude anything from these stats. Most importantly what you could conclude is that there are lots off different browsers outthere. And they all should be able to visit your page an get to the content. There is basicly two ways to achieve this:
1) The bad way: Ignore all those different browsers and design for a specific on.
2) The better way: Stick to the standards as close as posible and hope for the best. Most modern browsers should be able to show an standard compliant website, however some do have some serious quirks and glitches.

For info in web standards take a look here:
www.w3c.org ---> This organisation makes the standards
www.w3schools.com ---> This organisation explains them
www.alistapart.com ---> These people design with them and give some cool examples.

For info on browser Quircks see:
http://www.quirksmode.org/
Don't design around the quirks, but when you notice some unwanted behaviour in your site check if it could be a quirck and what to do with it.

------------------------------
Support Justice for Pat Richard

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted 01-19-2005 01:08

I don't have any problem with the layout breaking in firefox, and I see the flash just fine. Not sure hwat's going on there...

The code, however, is absolutely atrocious. This layout shoudl really be a breeze using proper XHTML and CSS without a tabled layout - it has none of the pitfalls which tend to make things more complicated (the whole 3-columns-of-even-lengths issue, etc...)

The example you posted is far more attractive than the mockup version. Don't have the attention span to get too specific, but the mockup image is not a very inviting layout. it's constricted and dull. the example you made, on the other hand, is open, flexible, inviting. it has a light feel.

fwiw.

NotLikely
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jan 2005

posted 01-19-2005 16:35

I did the CSS box tutorial late last night on Guru's Network, so that's what I'm going to use for the final design of the site. It is actually very cool way to do it and I guess you could say my eyes have been opened!

I want to nail down the design aspect though, are there any more opinions on which to use? I really prefer V2, but I need to make some compromises with the other owner and use some of his ideas too.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted 01-19-2005 18:47

I really find nothing in his design that would in any way add to the positive aspects in yours.

IMO, comprimizing between the two would simpyl be lessening the effectiveness of your design for the sake of someone's ego - and that's bad.

Rinswind 2th
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted 01-21-2005 19:46

Taken a second look the site looks ok now, same computer same browser. Yesterday i took a look an an other comp with the same browser looks ok too. So something was wrong on my side off the line. So i need to make some excuses for the first part of my comments. I have a little bit more time this weekend so i get you an css version off your site.

------------------------------
Support Justice for Pat Richard

Rinswind 2th
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted 01-22-2005 18:15

As promised:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rinswind/V2-Redesign_07.html
Beware it's not exactly the same, not finished, buggy and it breaks in any resolution below 1024*768.

------------------------------
Support Justice for Pat Richard

(Edited by Rinswind 2th on 01-22-2005 18:16)

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