Topic awaiting preservation: Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes

Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes

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The class for clergy and seminarians at Rome's Pontifical Academy "Regina Apostolorum" has arisen from alarm about Satanic practices among young people, especially in Italy.

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Merely an effort to perpetuate the myth of a god.

Without a devil, there would be no need for a god or clergy. Then all those pedophiles would be out wandering the streets instead of molesting choir boys.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Thats a pretty poor response.

I am sure there are many people here who know a good number of holy men, and having nothing but the highest reguard for them. I am an aethist through and through, but I still have respect for the men who can live up to the standards imposed upon them by the church.

Those that break those rules should be punished. They are ruining the good names of the many more who perform a tireless service for their community. I think lumping all of these good people into the class with the bad is terrible thing to do, especially when so many of the people in that group are some of the nicest and kindest people you will ever meet.

Just because you have something against a set of beliefs does not make the people who hold those beliefs evil.

Dan @ Code Town

However, WarMage, the covering of such crimes is also a crime in and of itself. Don't fool yourself in that regards.

I am not saying that all should be lumped into one heap. But turning a blind eye to the problem is just as bad, IMHO.

That was the point. Those who were not themselves pedophjiles oftent knew about the predations of their brethern and kept quiet or were an active part of the cover-up.

They then, are eligible for tarring with the same brush.

Those few who had no knowledge would clearly be held blamless.

Remember Nuermburg?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

You also have to remember the pressure that is put on the Priests, Bishops, Pope, etc. to be perfect. When something like that happens, they try to cover it up quickly so that the reputation doesn't go down the hole. It is quite understandable from their view point. Bad, but understandable.

As for the "without Devil...no need of God" that is really untrue. You don't need a super bad guy to justify God. We are super bad guy enough. The Devil is a really bad, tricky serpent, but as a shirt I once read said "lead me not unto temptation...I can find it my self." Satan is bad, don't get me wrong. He is a major threat to unbelievers, and more of a threat to believers, but he just plays on human weaknesses. In a sense, he uses us to destroy ourselves. And he is very good at it. But God is still there, Satan or no Satan.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Oh, I feel sooo much better!

Thank you for the sermon.

Pardon me, cleaning vomitus off my keyboard.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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It is quite understandable from their view point. Bad, but understandable.

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No.

No, no no no no no!

it is not in the slightest bit understandable. from any persepctive.

there are a lot of things that are understandable, especially when in a stressful situation.

ok, just so we're clear: RAPING CHILDREN AND ANY ASSOCIATED COVERING UP/PERPETUATION OF THAT ACT IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

Please tell me we can all agree on that?

The people 'in charge' who not only covered up these actions, but actually moved these priests from town to town where they could constantly prey on new unsuspecting children are EVERY BIT as guilty as the priests who were actually raping children.

Those throughout the church - both clergy and parisheners - who make excuses for them, as if all they did was cheat at Scrabble, are crossing the border into that guilt as well.


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As to the posted topic....I can't imagine what these classes will actually consist of. I can't beleive they will actually be very informative in any real sense.

Hey, good idea. Let's get back to the posted topic. Anyone have any other comments?

Please start a new topic if you want to continue discussing the pedophile issue.

Sorry Briggl

Well, I don't know a whole lot about exorcisms. Most of what I know come from the movies (heh, great place to learn things huh). But I did see something on a Discovery channel video once about a boy who was supposedly possesed by a demon. Then a few priests exorcised it (after quite a while). Let's assume for the sake of argument that demons are real, the Christian God is real, and exorsims could possibly work (all three of which this Catholic Church believes). Would these courses, under those circumstances, be logical? Would they even work well?

I personally think that, assuming demons, why not equip priests with the tools to use against them?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

at the same time let us assume pigs may fly. Which should not be confused with the possibility that mayflies may be, on occasion, pigs.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

If that helps you focus on the discussion at hand then have at it. I was trying to make it easier for discussion by making an assumption that the church in question believes in. It helps understand their thought process. If Briggl wants to take it in a different way then have at it.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Let's assume for the sake of argument that demons are real, the Christian God is real, and exorsims could possibly work (all three of which this Catholic Church believes). Would these courses, under those circumstances, be logical? Would they even work well?

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Based on those assumptions, it is logical for the church to offer such courses. The answer to the second question depends upon how well the teachers do their jobs.
Based on the information in the article, it is quite logical for the church to do what it has done. I personally do not believe in any of that stuff, so I wouldn't be taking any of the courses. But I can certainly understand why the church felt the need to offer them.

Apparently, societies where fogs are virtually unknown, desert areas for instance, don't have the ghost myth.

If we didn't have religion, we wouldn't have demon and devil myths. Or angels and cherubim for that matter.

Such imaginings are essential to keep the ignorant masses entertained and frightened, thus strengthening the local shaman's grip upon them.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

While I agree on a certain level, etheist, I think you gloss over the issue far too lightly. It goes much deeper into the human psyche than simple fear, control, or entertainment.

It's far more an issue of need. The need for hope - a hope that this dismal life is not all there is....that the suffering we endure her will somehow be rewared later.

It's about the need to believe that human nature is not as bad is it really is....that the evils of this world can be explained by supernatural forces.

People have certainly used these things to their advantage, instilling fear to gain control and the like, but at it's base it is far deeper and far more invasive than those things.

It could obviously be discussed in far greater detail than this, but you get the idea, I'm sure...

^ Well said.

Sums it up fairly well...an escape from reality.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

and on a related note -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4287995.stm

The work of man, not a mythical beast. Man's works have always transcended that of the mythical gods in sheer brutality.

Perhaps that is why many like to say it "...is god's will", avoids responsibility.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Very well said DL. The human needs were explained quite well, and yes, religion is more taken advantage of. If you were to look at things from a very objective view, most religions would not create strife, would only issue a good moral base, and be a good solice for people in regards to rewards. I don't think Christianity is a good one for making one feel better about one's self, since it says that men are inherently evil, but there are plus sides...

As for other religions, if the anger and violence of the people were taken out, there would probably be world peace. Take Muslums for instance. If the few verses in the Koran that speak vaguely about violence were taken out, then it would be a very peaceful religion. But then you have the problem of manipulation. People manupulating a religous person to get something out of him/her. That happend a bunch in the middle ages.

As for the topic, Etheist, the reason I posted it that way was that those were the beliefs of the Church. If those beliefs were switched, then it would definitly be a stupid waste of time (Priesthood itself would be a WOT excpet for what DL said).

I can't seem to find a middle ground. Is there one that can make a good discussion? With the first side it is absolutely good to have the classes. On the other, only more pomp for controling the masses. Is there a middle ground?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Religion, being entirely a creation of man, is inheirantly as evil as the men and women who conduct it's offices.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Religion, being entirely a creation of man, is inheirantly as evil as the men and women who conduct it's offices

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This is a pretty strong broad statement. Think again. Why is trying to spread peace and love for each other evil?

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is inheirantly as evil as the men and women

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There is no implication of any particular level of evil...only that the institution is equal to the people who comprise it.


Besides, you are narrowing religion down to one small aspect of your particualr religion - "trying to spread peace and love".

There are very obviously - no matter how much you would like it to be otherwise - very large parts of the institution of christianity (and very large numbers of christians) which are not the slightest bit interested in spreading peace and love...

There are very obviously those parts of the institutuion, as well as those members of the "faithful" who have proven to be very seriously evil.

The naive idealism displayed in your statement is kind of "cute" and nice...but it's not reality for the most part.

briggl, my opinion is that this class is a positive step for the Vatican University. There are a lot of people who get involved in one form of Satanism or another and often times it is not beneficial in the least to them. If this class can help equip RC priests to steer young people away from those cases, then more power to them.

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Why is trying to spread peace and love for each other evil?[quote]

When did that happen?

For most of it's history xianity has been as dedicated as the radical Muslims in bringing converts by way of the sword.

Even today, right-wing xian sects use hatred and fear, an example is the idiocy over claiming cartoons are promoting a gay lfestyle. It is a smaller sword, blunt and dull, but a sword non-the-less.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Why is trying to spread peace and love for each other evil?[quote]

When did that happen?

For most of it's history xianity has been as dedicated as the radical Muslims in bringing converts by way of the sword.

Even today, right-wing xian sects use hatred and fear, an example is the idiocy over claiming cartoons are promoting a gay lfestyle. It is a smaller sword, blunt and dull, but a sword non-the-less.

Dull and blunt effectively describes those who adhere to such foolishness as well.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Ehtheist, use the Edit button - works nicely.

Back to the thread!

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Ehtheist said:

For most of it's history xianity has been as dedicated as the radical Muslims in bringing converts by way of the sword.

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Ehtheist, I have to disagree with that. I think if you take an honest look at history you will find the good brought about in this world as a direct result of Christ's teachings far far outweighs the evil that has been done in his name. But even if your characterization were true, spreading Xianity by the sword violates its own principles.

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There are very obviously those parts of the institutuion, as well as those members of the "faithful" who have proven to be very seriously evil.

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Like how many since the history of Christianity? Can you number them?
What parts of the institution specifically? How has their evilness impacted the whole of Christianity as it is today as opposed to other evil institutions.

Remember the inquisition?

Remember the crusades?

And those are just the most well-known instances of the evil being done in the name of Jesus Christ, a person who preached peace, and love for one another.




(Edited by briggl on 02-25-2005 00:45)

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Can you number them?

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I don't know that I can count that high

Briggl noted the obvious examples. Keep in mind that the crusades were not just one campaign. There were many, and they were by and large very violent political affairs. Several times, the armies on their way out of europe would be sure to slaughter any jews in their path on the way, among other things...caught up in their "christian" fervor.

There was most certainly a blood lust associated with the propogation of christianity during the medieval period. Especially in concern with Muslims and Jews (the biggest "threats" to their concept of Jesus as the christ).

How about the countless instances of burning people alive, for such simple things as disagreeing with the cardinals on matters of scriptural interpretation?

The amount of death caused by these things combined is staggering.

WS your reference to the 'edit' button escapes me.

Well Bug, suppose you list some of the good...I suspect your list would be shorter.

Xianity has violated it's 'stated' principles since the outset. The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal a sect very much dedicated to bringing the faith to the unbelievers by the sword. A sect described by one researcher as "Giving no quarter and asking none". Apparently, they were surrounded by like-minded tribes as well.

Very loving.

Hypocritical since the outset and living up to that creed alone to this date.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Why don't we take one very well known and recent example? How do you regard the life and work of Mother Teresa? Very loving? Hypocritical?

Can you offer a link or reference to the Dead Sea scroll info you mention?

DL-44, while I don't condone the burnings, it needs to be pointed out that putting people to death who disagreed with the powers that be was pretty much commonplace in that point in human history. In fact, it still is in many countries.

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Bugs, mother terresa is irrelevant, I am sure there were and still are large number of people regarless of their beliefs or lack of them, who did and still do good for mankind. We are talking about organization founded on Jesus' teachings and it's bloody history, particulary dark ages, which were very much hypocritical and ironic in terms of the actions the authorities performend and teachings they preached.

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The purpose of Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity is to serve the "poorest of the poor." In the process of fulfilling its mission it has become one of the wealthiest charities in the world. Exactly how much money the charity has received is difficult to pinpoint. Sister Pauline, head of the order's operations in Germany was quoted as saying, "It's nobody's business how much money we have, I mean to say how little we have." (see "Mother Teresa: Where Are Her Millions?") There have been reports that US$50 million was in a New York City bank account at the time of her death in 1997. The donated money does not appear to be used to better the conditions of the poor. Unsterile conditions prevail at the order's homes for the poor. Because Mother Teresa's concern was more focused on life after death than the mortal life she was able to say "The most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the suffering of Christ." In terms of the donations it was probably the donors and their consciences that benefited the most since the money never seems to have trickled down to the poor souls in the order's care.

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http://www.cosmicbaseball.com/mteresa01.html

briggl, so how would *you* characterize her? Does this information, assuming it's true, lead you to consider her a hypocrite? Ineffective? What? I would like to hear your words and not just the link's.

Ruski, I didn't think we were limiting this to the Catholic church. I thought Ehtheist was referring to Xianity as a whole. Maybe I misunderstood.

I can point out countless examples of Xian charities, selfless acts, money donated, houses built, unwanted children adopted, etc. One of the fundamental commandments of the Xian faith is to love others as you love yourself. Those who actually follow, or even partially follow, the actual teachings of Xianity are motivated to help others as often as they can.

I know of the abuses and terrible things that have been done throughout history. I've acknowledged them here many times. There is no excuse for them and those responsible will have to answer for their actions of that you can be sure. I don't believe that the abuses nullify the loving actions.

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The greatest person alive in the world at this moment is some unknown individual in some obscure place who, at this hour, has gone in love to be with another person in need.

--Albert Schweitzer

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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-25-2005 05:34)

Mother T and her ilk are the exception which prove the rule...the sword being the rule. Many xian drawings and art work depict an angel with a flaming sword.

When the lion lays down with the lamb, the lion rises with a full stomach.

Bug, if you google dead sea scrolls or Qumran, you will get a host of hits. In particular, I am currently reading, very slowly, "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered" by Robert Eisenman and Micheal Wise. Published be Element.

I suspect I shall have to read this several times, but so far, I am not getting the impression the scrolls are much more than a bunch of sermons and related notes done by a particularly hard-headed and militaristic sect.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Ehtheist, is it your position that Xianity teaches forced conversions or that wayward followers have taken that approach? I hope you're not suggesting that depictions of angels with swords indicates Xians were to force their faith on others.

I'll take a closer look at what you were saying about the Essenes community. That sounds like an interesting book too, thanks for pointing it out.

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I hope you're not suggesting that depictions of angels with swords indicates Xians were to force their faith on others.

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Bugs, let's talk about the "conversion" of the Native American Indians )North, Central and South) and the Aboriginies of Australia, shall we?

The Church sanctioned a lot of mass killings ("they don't have souls") - thus it was not murder. Later, after the Church decided they did indeed have souls, they produced a mass campaign to convert them - in anyway possible.

But you know most of this.

Mother Teresa was not the person her publicity made her out to be. If you read into her philosophy, you will see that she wasn't the saint that many people want her to be.

St. Paul was the first major player who helped form Christianity into what it is today. His statues and paintings always show him with a sword. It is his icon, so he can be picked out in paintings - St. Peter always holds keys, St. Paul holds a sword.

I didn't think too much of Mother T. and agree she was more interested in what she beleived came 'after' this life.

As for modern day xian atrocities.

In Canada we had 'Indian Residential Schools' run by the anglican church on behalf of our federal government. Native children were snatched from their parents... boarded in these schools...and subjected to all manner of physical & mental abuse if they spoke their native tongue or conducted any of their traditional ceremonies. ..all the while being subjected to the the teachings of christ.

These atrocities were still going on in the 1960's and the court cases continue today.

Let us not forget that the xian proselytizers did to the sweet and gentle people of the Hawiian islands (among other innocent cultures). Introduced the concept of sin (now, there is a snake in the garden), all the while taking advantage of the freely loving young women (more xian hypocrisy) and just incidentally helping the foreign sailors spread veneral diseases, which were unknow in the are before the advent of the white man.

So, yes Bug your faith does advocate, has practiced, is practicing (and not just a few errant followers) such forceful conversion. Watched a TV evangelist lately? The sword need only be metaphorical.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

briggl, in New Testament theology, the sword symbolizes the Word of God. Paul wrote the book of Ephesians and many people believe the book of Hebrews as well:

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Ephesians 6:10-18

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

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Paul did not advocate anything contrary to Christ's own teachings when it comes to this issue. Xians were to struggle and make war against spiritual enemies just as we are today. The kingdom of God that Paul preached about was not a physical empire but a spiritual one. Would you agree with this?

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Ehtheist said:

So, yes Bug your faith does advocate, has practiced, is practicing (and not just
a few errant followers) such forceful conversion. Watched a TV evangelist
lately? The sword need only be metaphorical.

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I am not here to make excuses for anyone who violates the principles of Xianity because there is no excuse for that, but you will need to show me where my faith advocates these atrocities you mention.

I posted while you did and so about the sword being metaphorical, I would have to say that I agree on that It most certainly is metaphorical.

Let's be clear about this. If I come to you and tell you the gospel, I am not forcing anything upon you. All I have done at that point is given you information that you will need to make a decision about. You can either accept it or reject it. It is as simple as that. I do not consider that forced in any way shape or form. Do you think it does?

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Not to mention the *millions* natives in west indies who were butchered on the arrival of Columbus and crew. We're talking entire tribes and groups of tribes pretty much obliterated in the name of christian progress.

Basically because they weren't really "people", they were just savages...

While I understand that there certainly are those who do follow the teachings of Jesus, as opposed to the bastardized doctrines wirtten in his name, the bulk of the history of christianity has been very unchristian. Yes, many of the things that were done were borrowed form the "standard practice of the day", but that does not in any way make it ok. It is also important to note that christianity took these "standard practices" quite a bit further, and with divine support for whatever they wanted to do.

The church received carte blanche to do whatever they wanted in the name of god and christ...and they took full andvantage of it.

{{Edit - you posted while I was, bugs.

There is no doubt that what christianity *should* be all about, and what it has *actually* been all about are two very different things. The problem lies, as always, in the doctrinization of Jesus' teachings after the fact. So many things in the NT have nothing to do with Jesus, except that the author says that jesus revealed it to him...

It stopped being about Jesus real quick.




(Edited by DL-44 on 02-25-2005 16:28)

I'm still waiting for an answer from you Bugs on the Native front.

And I agree with what DL has posted here.

In fact, I would go further - the movement that Jesus started got hijacked after his death. Much like the movement that Ghandi started in India has gotten hijacked after his death.

I doubt either would be very happy to see what has become of the movement that they started.

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didn't think too much of Mother T. and agree she was more interested in what she beleived came 'after' this life.

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According to Proverbs 31:8, we need to speak up: "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, and for the rights of all those who are destitute."

Since you didn't know Mother Theresa personally, how can you judge her and know what was in her heart.

Mother Theresa's aim was to help the poor and give dignity to the dying. She and her sisters would find women, men children dying in the gutters of India's poorest section. They would clean maggots off them, bathe them, and give them a bed, shelter and a place to die with love, tenderness and caring. She opened up houses for the dying and had many volunteers who helped care for them. She said, when she would look at these poorest of the poor, she would see the face of Jesus in each of them. Now, houses in her name are all over the world, which provide the same service even today. Didn't good come from her love of Christianity.

DL, We, Christians have been persecuted since our beginnings and are even persecuted today? So, it is us too, in fact much more so that evil has been directed at. But, you don'ts see us bringing it up on a daily basis and making a point to pinpoint the perpetrators.

Persecution of Christians is as old as the Church itself. First there was an attempt to intimidate the Apostles into silence. They wre flogged and all killed. The first was St. Stephen who was stoned to death. James was killed by Herod who then tried to also get rid of Peter, but the Lord intervened by means of a miraculous escape from prison. Christ was killed by the Romans.

Listen to Paul's own account of persecution against him: "Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked." from the book of Corinthians. Paul, in his training of Timothy reminds him, "Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (Even on the internet)

The reality is, persecution is happening now at a more intense level than ever in history against Christians. More followers of Christ have died for their faith in the 20th century than in all the 19 previous centuries combined. More than an estimated 160,000 believers were martyred in 1996, and countless others were subjected to unimaginable horrors. And the persecution appears to be higher today.

There is now evidence of widespread torture, killing, raping, and imprisonment of believers in dozens of countries. They include China, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Ethiopia, Cuba and several countries in the Soviet Union. What is happening in these nations, and elsewhere, is unconscionable. In some places it amounts to mass murder of Christians. These Christians today face torture, rape, imprisonment, slavery, beatings, and death. Some 200 million face this as a reality daily, and 400 million face severe to moderate forms of discrimination simply because they believe in Jesus Christ.


Sudan in Africa is full of examples. Families in small Christian communities are seeing their communities disintegrate due to Islamic raiders from the north. Often the men are killed because they represent opposition, women are raped, and children are enslaved. China is currently detaining Protestants and severely beating more than a dozen church leaders even today. Chinese are ridiculed, beaten because they communicate with Protestant foreigneres. We, Christians pray in our churches each week, oblivious to the fact that Christians in many parts of the world suffer brutal torture, arrest, imprisonment and even death -- for no other reason than that they are Christians.

If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you... (John 15:18-20) Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." (Matthew 24:

Jade, what you have just done, is a classic "Switch" tactic - but despite everything that you have typed about Xian persecution, doesn't change the fact that the Xian Religion did terrible things and atrocities!

In fact, in light of the persecution that Xians went through, one would think that they would have been more tolerant because of this.

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doesn't change the fact that the Xian Religion did terrible things and atrocities!

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Web, when you state this, are you referring to certain persons in the faith or the whole of the Christian religion. People do sway in their faith and do evil things in the name of religion. That exist even today, but it doesn't represent the whole flock of that religion. Can we agree on this?

We are talking about an organization as a whole. You can't have your cake and eat it, as well. The Xian Religion has a history and it is stained in the blood of the heathens.

This is documented fact. I am appalled to see what lengths some like you are willing to go to, to deny this!

As always, organizations are made up of individuals. And they vary accordingly. But together they make up the whole, and they all are responsible for the actions of the organization of which they are a part.

Xianity is no exception.

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But together they make up the whole, and they all are responsible for the actions of the organization of which they are a part.

Xianity is no exception.

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So I guess all Germans today are responsible for Hitler's actions from the past.

From the view I get in your post, I gather your an educated person, so I don't understand why you think this way. The only reason I can come up with is that you harbor discrimination or resentment of some sort towards Christianity or Christians in general.

Whats the difference of the history of your people who killed and massacred others? Are you to be held accountable today for what they did in history?

Nope not German...but you could say "all Nazis" even modern ones =)

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WebShaman said:

and they all are responsible for the actions of the organization of which they
are a part.

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Jade is correct. If you're going to hold all Xians to blame for the atrocities cited, then all Germans are also culpable for the atrocities committed during WWII. It would be hypocritical to say otherwise. Not every Xian agreed with the atrocities committed by the Church and not every German agreed with the Nazi party but if you accept what WS said, then it has to apply to both Xians and Germans.

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So I guess all Germans today are responsible for Hitler's actions from the past.

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Not all Germans were Nazis, Jade. That should be obvious to even you.

And the Nazi period is an inescapable part of German history, yes.

quote:

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The only reason I can come up with is that you harbor discrimination or resentment of some sort towards Christianity or Christians in general.

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Uhhh...say what? Jade, an examination of history reveals the documented facts that I speak of. And they have nothing at all to do with what I think of the Xian religion. I'm pretty appalled that you come to the conclusion that I am discrimitory or harbor resentment against Xianity just becasue I state facts? It is true, that Xianity treated my forefathers terribly. But that has very little to do with me or the facts.

quote:

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Whats the difference of the history of your people who killed and massacred others? Are you to be held accountable today for what they did in history?

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May I ask what that has to do with anything? I don't think I pointed out any differences in the history of my people than what actually is recorded. Yes, my people did kill and massacre others. Held accountable? I am aware of my people's history (well, as well as I can be, anyway). I accept what and who they are, and what and who I am. In that sense, I hold myself accountable, in that I acknowledge it. But my people do not hold the belief that they are peaceful, loving, and kind like Xianity does. Also, one has little choice when it comes to racial groups - you are either born into one, or you are not. As such, they are not really organizations (though they certainly can have organizations). It is not like I had a choice in the matter.

So, the difference here is that my people never made a pretense that they were kind, loving, and peaceful.

quote:

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Ehtheist said:

Religion, being entirely a creation of man, is inheirantly as evil as the men
and women who conduct it's offices.

---

I totally agree Ehtheist.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

quote:

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Ruski said:

but you could say "all Nazis" even modern ones

---

Can you? Do you really want to stereotype like that?

Good point Jade, have you been reading Voice of the Martyers recently? A lot of those stats sounded familiar.

Okay, Webshaman, let's get away from the ethnic groups, and more toward the organized parties. You used to live (live again?) in America right? Were you part of a political party? I know you like Bush slamming, but was there one party you were favoring? Do you like everything that they stand for?

While it is true that evil things happened before, we have to look at why they happened:
Crusades - A man ordered Jerusalem to be taken back by force. I don't know where war is advocated by Jesus in the Bible, but I bet He would definitly be against that one. N.B. this act was started by a man.
Inquisition - Again, by people who wanted to force others into Christianity. Where is that in the Bible? Did Jesus ever say: "Force your brethren into chains and whipeth them into submissiveness."? Not so much, no. That is a person's ideas.

If you look at any thing that was advocated in the past by people you find at the root of them, people. Not what Jesus or the Apostoles said. (As a disclaimer, if the Bible is found, as in the slave situation, it is taken out of context.)

As for Native American treatment, yes WS, it was (is?) horrendous. It was an evil act by men that Jesus would have cried about.

I have been reading some literature from that time period by John Smith and a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. It was interesting the system of events that took place. Much of the treatement towards Native Americans was brought about by ego in the writings (John Smith using his "savage" guide as a buckler, or sheild, against the arrows of other "savages"). While I am not advocating what they did, I will tell you that I can understand thier reasoning behind it. I don't like the reasoning, and I think it is faulty, but I understand it: when they were attacked by a few tribes, and then literature was made about the Natives who were "savages," the whole populace was frightened of them. That led to misunderstandings and a whole lot of blood shed.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Paul did not advocate anything contrary to Christ's own teachings when it comes to this issue.

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Jesus never advocated taking up the sword against ANYONE. His teachijngs were about PEACE and LOVING ONE ANOTHER and HELPING THOSE WHO CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES.
So, yes, Paul did go against the teachings of Christ.

^ good point.

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briggl said:

Jesus never advocated taking up the sword against ANYONE.

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Neither did Paul. briggl, did you read all of my post? Where does Paul advocate taking up the sword against anyone?

About Jesus being all about PEACE, how do you view these words of his?

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Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ?a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.?
?Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

--Matthew 10:34-37

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I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, motherinlaw against daughterinlaw and daughterinlaw against motherinlaw.?

--Luke 12:49-53

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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-26-2005 17:33)

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DL, We, Christians have been persecuted since our beginnings and are even persecuted today? So, it is us too, in fact much more so that evil has been directed at. But, you don'ts see us bringing it up on a daily basis and making a point to pinpoint the perpetrators.

---

Can you please tell me how persecution of chirstians (which, by the way, was most certainly *NOT* happening during the period that I have mentioned, mot by any means whatsoever...) has anything whatsoever to do with the atrocities committed by christians, in the name of christ?

Because christians were persecuted in the past, it was ok for them to then burn people alive whenever they felt like it? It was ok for them to commit mass murders of jews and muslims whenever the desire hit them? It was ok for them to imprison, torture, rape and murder in the name of christ, because they had been persecuted centuries before? It's ok for them to travel to new lands, and kill by the millions the native inhabitants, because they weren't christian?

And let's be realistic: regardless what is going on *today*, or what happened for a couple hundred years before christianity took hold, christians as a group held the reins of terror in the western world for more than 1,600 years.

How can you so nonchalantly brush this aside as irrelevant?

*that* is unconscionable.

They have never gotten over that little bit of difficulty with the Romans. I suspect any day, some of them will be suing the Italian government for the indignities suffered 200 plus years ago.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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About Jesus being all about PEACE, how do you view these words of his?

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I do not believe in God, and therefore do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. I used to like the message that Jesus preached, but somehow I missed those passages. Now I think he was just another itinerant wanderer like many others who traveled around at the time, doing magic and preaching anything that will cause people to give him food. Jesus just happened to have someone smart enough to perpetrate a reserection hoax after his death which made him stand out above the rest.

briggl, do you mind my asking what exactly did you find appealing about his teachings before? And why did you find them so?

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WebShaman said:

I'm still waiting for an answer from you Bugs on the Native front.

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I'm sorry, WS. What exactly was the question for me?


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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-27-2005 01:41)

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Jade is correct. If you're going to hold all Xians to blame for the atrocities cited, then all Germans are also culpable for the atrocities committed during WWII. It would be hypocritical to say otherwise. Not every Xian agreed with the atrocities committed by the Church and not every German agreed with the Nazi party but if you accept what WS said, then it has to apply to both Xians and Germans.

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Bugs, that is not what I said. I said responsible, not to blame!

By choosing to belong to an organization, you also accept a measure of responsibility as a member of it. Now, Germans are a race, and are also citizens of a country. They have no choice being born German - though they can choose to leave the country. And yes, they must accept the fact that in their history, the Nazis did commit atrocities. There is a measure of responsibility here, for each and every German to accept. It is to acknowledge that this has happened, and to come to terms with it, and to try and not let it happen again.

The same applies to members of Xianity, just as it does to the members of any other organization.

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I hope you're not suggesting that depictions of angels with swords indicates Xians were to force their faith on others.

---

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Bugs, let's talk about the "conversion" of the Native American Indians )North, Central and South) and the Aboriginies of Australia, shall we?

The Church sanctioned a lot of mass killings ("they don't have souls") - thus it was not murder. Later, after the Church decided they did indeed have souls, they produced a mass campaign to convert them - in anyway possible.

---

That was what I meant with the "Native front" remark. Could you perhaps clarify your position on this?

(Edited by WebShaman on 02-27-2005 04:07)

Bugimus,
Why I used to like Jesus' message:
I didn't think he was tryiing to create a new religion. I thought he was only trying to get the Jews (of which he was one) to be more "Jewish" - to go back to the roots of their religion, of which a large part is helping those who are worse off than yourself.
Getting the "money changers" out of the churches;
Loving one another;
Peace - "give onto Caesar...", etc.

The passage that begins with "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." goes against all that I thought was good about Jesus.

There were a lot of people roaming around at the time of jesus, doing magic which appeared to be miracles, doing whatever they could to get people to take them in and feed them so they could survive. Jesus happened to be more charismatic, clever and manipulative than many of the others, so gathered a larger crowd around him. Also, he said some things that caused the Jewish leaders to be concerned with his teachings, especially when they saw his large following. So he was singled out and killed for this. Then someone (maybe Mary Magdelin (sp?)) came up with the idea of doing one more "miracle" and faking his reserection, which elevated him well above any of the others I just mentioned.

quote:

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Because christians were persecuted in the past, it was ok for them to then burn people alive whenever they felt like it? It was ok for them to commit mass murders of jews and muslims whenever the desire hit them? It was ok for them to imprison, torture, rape and murder in the name of christ, because they had been persecuted centuries before? It's ok for them to travel to new lands, and kill by the millions the native inhabitants, because they weren't christian?

---

Again, is this all you can come up with? And again, you are making the same error of mistaking crimes against jew, muslims, etc as being done by an institution instead of persons. People murdered, tortured,, raped, etc. Did Jesus Christ himself and his disciples perform these horrible deeds? Why do you continue to harp on the past? Are those the only arguments you can come up with besides the Spanish inquisiton? Can you focus on the present? Have we burned anyone here lately in the last century? Has the Pope here recently ordered any community be murdered raped or killed in the name of Jesus Christ. Frankly, your arguments are getting old and your repeat the same arguments over. You seem to feel so threatened by Christianity. Why? The Christian institution is not some evil empire trying to take over the whole world today. Christianity in its many denominations today is quite beautiful in its splendor to spread and add to itself. It has many forms, many colors and works together to heal divisions to make it stronger. And in its mystery it is greater and powerful today than you can ever imagine.

quote:

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Can you focus on the present?

---

The conversation, and the question specifically, were about the HISTORY of the christian institution.

Therefore, I chose to talk about, go figure, the HISTORY of it.

However, once again, you brush aside anything that heppened, pretend it didn't really, pretend the church had nothing to do with it, and generally ignore anything contrary to what you want to beleive.

You act no differently anytime anything regarding the church is discussed. You are incapable of dealing with reality. It is pointless to talk to you, Jade, and you have proven this incessantly.

Well, let have a look at modern day xian atrocities. Heard of Kosovo? Of course, the muslims committed their share too but it is just another religious excuse for excess on both sides.

In North America, the US in particular, your own state if I recall correctly. a bunch of god-fearing good old boys dragged a black man behind a pick-up truck until he was no more than a smear on the road. Just because he was black.

The Klan claims to be xian, proud of that? Or a member? They have been burning people on a xian cross for quite some time now. We haveno idea how many rapes these fine examples of xianity have committed and are committing, likely as you read this.

In recent years a number of gay men have been murdered by people who later claimed they did it because homosexuality is against the bible.

It is not particularly, unless you wish it to be.

Xians have bombed innocent people who worked in abortion clinics and shot doctor's who performed these services.

Today, cartoons are accused of promoting a gay lifestyle...another bit of sheer stupidity by...wait for it...xians!

BTW, you have not idea what the disciples did 2000+ years ago, if they existed. That book you rely on so much tells you nothing about their private lives.

Xianity is no threat in itself, it is just the people who believe it we have to worry about.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Jade = the Catholic version of Gideon.

*shrugs*

She'll probably just shrugs this stuff off, as well.

It's a she?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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To see 1 billion Catholics as child molesters is truly a extremely dicriminating view.

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Jade:
How you got that^ out of what was said I'll never know. Me thinks a retraction's in order.

You do however give us a clear example of just how wrong an 'interpretation' can be even when the writings are only a few hours old.

Yes, I am female ehtheist, but don't let that stop you from letting me know how you really feel.

quote:

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The Klan claims to be xian, proud of that? Or a member? They have been burning people on a xian cross for quite some time now. We have no idea how many rapes these fine examples of xianity have committed and are committing, likely as you read this.

---

This just proves what I posted earlier, people commit crimes and use their system of belief as cover for an exuse to do these horrible things. But they are not of God. And this has been happening since God came into the picture. People use God as a cover for many evil purposes. What comes to mind is televanglist and tent religious. Some are sincere, but lots are for greed and use peoples money to fill their pockets. One who comes to mind is Benny Hinn. Two friends of mine use to work for him and were devoted. But when they saw the focus was money, money, money, they were so heartbroken. If he was sincere before, he has given into tempation to do dishonest deeds.

quote:

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You act no differently anytime anything regarding the church is discussed. You are incapable of dealing with reality. It is pointless to talk to you, Jade, and you have proven this incessantly.

---

DL & others,

Why, when you feel, Christians just don't get your point, you want to stop discussing or debating and want nothing more to do with them? We could same the same about you atheist but we don't give up. You feel we are stubborn, wayward, misquided and you label us ignorant, but we do not feel that way about you. Yes, we do deal with reality on a daily basis. We know whats out there, its just that we have hope and faith in a God who will never abandon us.

(Edited by jade on 02-28-2005 16:22)

Don't worry Jade, I never discriminate.

quote:

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And this has been happening since God came into the picture

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I thought there was nobody around when he/she/it "first came into the picture"?

Or are you admitting this particular god was just invented a couple of thousand years ago?

Sounds like the latter.

I speak not for others here, but if you damn xians would just pratice your little faith and leave the rest of us alone, I suspect the world would be a far more peaceful place.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

---

Why, when you feel, Christians just don't get your point, you want to stop discussing or debating and want nothing more to do with them?

---

It's simple Jade, you fail to bring a reasonable and rational conversation to an argument. Instead of focusing on reality you hide behind your Mickey Mouse talks, you ignore the issues that are being brought up and try to point out that "someone else" also does it.

You speak very subjectively and superstitiously, this will get you no where when discussing real life problems.
and as far as I am guessing that is why secular peopel are tired of this spirtual religious mumbo jumbo talks.

It's not that you are stuborn, wayward or misquided. You are simply unrealistic, obsessed with your personal beliefs and refuse to look at serious situations like that with objective and realistic view.

quote:

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Why, when you feel, Christians just don't get your point, you want to stop discussing or debating and want nothing more to do with them? We could same the same about you atheist but we don't give up. You feel we are stubborn, wayward, misquided and you label us ignorant, but we do not feel that way about you. Yes, we do deal with reality on a daily basis. We know whats out there, its just that we have hope and faith in a God who will never abandon us.

---

I speak and debate (and even argue) with many christians here. I disagree with the basisc beliefs of all of them. We find many things on which to agree and on which to disagree. There are only a very small handful who prove themselves so unreasonable that it is not worth carrying on a discussion with any more. You are one of them. I should have known better than to even address you in this thread, but it has been long enough that the extent of your unwillingness to ever directly address an issue slipped my mind temporarily.

Don't lump yourself in with anyone here who is christian, and act as if my view of them is the same as my view of you - it is not.

It is important that you understand: when I say that your behavior in relation to the problems of catholic priests raping children and being protected is disgusting, I mean it very thoroughly. It is not an insult, or mudslinging. It is the honest feeling that you have instilled by your actions in defense of the issue, and you unwillingness to address it honestly.

Truly disgusting. And I will say no more on the subject.

quote:

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Don't lump yourself in with anyone here who is christian, and act as if my view of them is the same as my view of you - it is not.

---

Wow, this is pretty strong coming from you. So I am heathen now according to you. Not Christian. And soley on my comments on the issue of child abuse & cover up in the Roman Catholic church makes that dermination from you.
How do you, a non-christian qualify yourself to determine who is Christian and who isn't. A majority of millions of Catholics think as I do. So they, according to you are not Christian either I suppose? Why am I not suprised. You seem so bitter not at all christians, just catholic ones.

So now, what is your critera on being able to determine who follows Christ and who doesnt?
You being an ex-christian yourself, I should find this quite interesting.

quote:

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speak not for others here, but if you damn xians would just pratice your little faith and leave the rest of us alone, I suspect the world would be a far more peaceful place.

---

And are your referring to all religions of the world or just Christians.

I am a Christ believer and follower, contrary to popular belief on this thread from certain athiest and protestants and I want the same peaceful world you do. How would you go about attaining this peace? As you can see and hear, the world is not at peace. And I doubt that Christians are the ones responsible for the unpeaceful climates in the world today. Are you discriminating against Christians and blaming them for the world's unrest. This reminds of Hitler's viewpoint of the Jews being responisible for all things that are bad in the world he lived in. Some things never change and history repeats itself over and over again.

*shakes head*

Once again, the reality issue. An exercise for you Jade:

1) open a text editor or word processing program.

2) copy what I posted, paste it in.

3) copy what you said I posted and paste it as well.

read the two seperate pieces of text until you understand the purpose of the exercise.

I have to agree with DL on this - I am shocked and appalled at the...well, it is simply mind-blowing, that someone following the Xian Religion would have such views regarding their Church and child Molestation.

As DL said, it is truly disgusting. No, I will go further - it is what ALLOWS it to continue. Because those who make up the flock do not rebel against such a widespread behavior.

This makes me feel sick. Truly sick - it is horrible.

I am not really worried about you xians, you are being outbred by the Asians and Muslims...yes, even the Catholics.

While all religions have a lot to answer for, xianity surely has the greatest debt load. Muslims, Jains, Hindus, Bhuddists do not blow up clinics and shoot doctors, but xians do.

It is xians who are fomenting a world of hate against gays...surely this goes against the 'teachings' your are so proud of?

Just two modern examples which spring to mind. Prince of peace indeed. My favourite bumper sticker says "Jesus, save me from your followers".

Sadly Jade, you are not well educated about the actual history of your own faith. Try reading some material not supplied by the church. But don't do it at night, will scare the hell out of you.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Jade, if our God is everything He claims to be, how can anything said in these halls either by heathen or protestant be cause for such defensiveness? You've alienated me to a degree because whenever I've tried to offer honest advice to you about how you interact with others here, you seem to think I'm out to get you too. Just my 2 cents.

quote:

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WebShaman said:

Bugs, let's talk about the "conversion" of the Native American Indians )North, Central and South) and the Aboriginies of Australia, shall we? The Church sanctioned a lot of mass killings ("they don't have souls") - thus it was not murder. Later, after the Church decided they did indeed have souls, they produced a mass campaign to convert them - in anyway
possible.

That was what I meant with the "Native front" remark. Could you perhaps clarify your position on this?

---

I had missed this. Let me begin by making a few points clear.
1) All human beings are equally valuable and loved by God. None of us, not even one, is better than any other. This is the way it has been since the first human, Adam.
2) Any institution, Xian or other, that sanctioned mass killings based on the fallacy that the victims were not human beings was horribly wrong and there is no excuse for that action, PERIOD.
3) Because all human beings are the same, all human beings are needful of a relationship with their creator and should be reconciled to him.
4) Because of #3, the work of spreading the gospel to all peoples is absolutely essential to the Xian faith. It is the third "C" of Covenant - God will be our God if we'll be His people, Commandments - Love God and love everybody else, Commission - Go into all the world and make disciples.

Xians have not done such a spotless job of missions. Please understand that I do not apologize for the spreading of my faith because it is vital that it be done. But along with that comes an acknowledgement that there are proper ways to do it and improper ways. For much of our history, the church and its missionaries have conflated culture with conversion. The gospel does not require that anyone lose their culture.

So when you cite cases where new cultures were forced to emulate Western societies, for instance, in how they dress and the types of music they play, you are correct in pointing out error. Christ's message can come to any culture without destroying that culture. Culture is merely a tool by which we humans craft in order to survive in this fallen world.

I think this explains my position on this a bit more clearly and it probably brings up plenty more questions. Let me know if this helps.

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briggl said:

The passage that begins with "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to
the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." goes against all that I
thought was good about Jesus.

---

briggl, thanks for the feedback. I think that you can still consider Christ's message in a good light. I am pleased to see that you point out that loving all humans has been a message going back to the foundation of Judaism and was not new to Christ's teachings. I think you are right on target with that. When Christ was asked about the greatest commandments, he summed up the entire law with two simple ones, love God and love everyone else.

I didn't mean to scare you off with the "sword" passage but I thought it might surprise you to hear it so I pointed it out. Actually, what he was referring to was how his own family had branded him a kook and that those who accepted his message would be met with intense resistance even to the point of breaking up families. I can assure you that a thourough read of the NT reveals no sanctioning whatsoever of conversion at the tip of a sword.

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Ehtheist said:

While all religions have a lot to answer for, xianity surely has the greatest debt load. Muslims, Jains, Hindus, Bhuddists do not blow up clinics and shoot doctors, but xians do.

---

I'm beginning to get a little concerned about your historical knowledge, Ehtheist. Human history is drenched with this sort of violence regardless of religion or country. And I hope you're not feeling too left out since 70 million murders in the century last can be laid at the feet of atheistic movements championed by such greats as Hitler, Mao, and their ilk. This is humanity's flaw, plain and simple.

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It is xians who are fomenting a world of hate against gays...surely this goes against the 'teachings' your are so proud of?

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Quite right. I rail against hating anyone within my numbers. Getting people to follow their own belief system is not an easy thing. I just heard a statistic yesterday, in fact, that studies have been done that compare Xians to non-Xians and one trend was clear. Xians on a whole don't act a whole lot different from the non-Xians. From where I sit, that's a real problem.

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What it all amounts to is; if you welcome to your ranks those who wish to become xians, so-be-it.

But the world as a whole, does not need proselytyzers.

Xianity has brought grief and pain and death wherever it has sent it's tentacles.

I believe someone mentioned earlier what the various xian faiths did in their effort to convert indiginous people here in Canada.

All their culture was declared null and void and ungodly. Their children were forced into schools sometimes hundreds of miles from their homes, they were provided physical punishment for speaking their native tongues and let us not even get into the horrendous sexual abuse and sterlizations!

The point you xian apologists avoid, by pointing out other people kill, rape and maim, is that other people-Pol Pots of the world don't hold themselves out to be paragons of virtue!

Religions in general have a tendency to do that. Xianity in particular!

If you are going to make your reputation on what a swell fella you are and how nice you treat people, then randomly rape, murder, torture and otherwise abuse and deprive other people, you have no right whatsoever to complain about criticism!

None!

BTW Bug, every member of the Wermacht had a belt buckle which read "Gott Mit Uns" God is with us...guess which god they thought was on their side?

Your mentioning Mao and other mass murderers puts squarely beside Jade in trying to excuse excesses by religion by saying "well, they did it first, nyahh, nyahh".

Perhaps you ought to review you own historical knowledge" Start in Hawaii and see how the xian missionaries quickly became the snake in a garden of eden.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

(Edited by Ehtheist on 03-01-2005 01:51)

quote:

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Xians on a whole don't act a whole lot different from the non-Xians. From where I sit, that's a real problem.

---

But Bugs this is to suggest there is something wrong with all but xians and that's why and where I part company with all flavors of all religions which pretty much hold the same view... that being, if you're not one of us you won't get a ticket to the big ride in the sky.

When it comes to xianity I find particularly souring what I call the 'escape clause.'
jesus forgives sinners so it really doesn't matter what you do while you're here.

I've put out the hitler/jew scenario here and elsewhere and have yet to hear a xian reply.

That scenario has hitler, moments before he dies, accepting jesus as his savior and is forgiven for all his sins. Presumably one of those sins would have been his killing of millions of people, most of them jews.

Jews however and of course, do not accept jesus as the mesiah. So under the 'escape clause' hitler is in... all the dead jews are out. Bugs it's bigotry and discrimination plain and simple.

Well and truly said No-Jive.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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Xianity has brought grief and pain and death wherever it has sent it's tentacles.

---

While it is true that this has been the case in many instances, and I have been one to point such things out quite often myself, it is very important to note that there have been plenty of cases throughout history where the arrival of christianity made great changes for the positive.

In the 'new world' this was certainly not the case...go as far north or south as you wish...

Throughout much of early medieval europe, christianity had a very positive effect...for a time at least. The world was a horrendously violent place, and the celts and other barbarians were most certainly laying waste to a great many strongholds of 'civiliazation', killing people by the thousands often for no reason whatsoever...
Before that it was the likes of Alexander (and there were plenty more before and after, and across the board in that region and plenty others) who killed and invaded with a bloodlust that could not be satisfied.

Equating Bugimus with Jade is not fair in the slightest.

Notice that Bugimus is not excusing the actions that have been comitted in the name of christ. He clearly states the seperation between what is christian and what has been done in the name of christianity.

He also most certainly has a point in the historical context.

The most important part of this is that christianity did have a positive impact on medieval europe, and Russia, in that it stopped the great bloody mass of violence that was the norm for centuris on end before. Remember that the legend of St Patrick, driving the snakes from Ireland was essentially a record of an end to the constant warring between the pagan warlords...

Let's not forget the *huge* impact that the spread of christianity had on the overall education of the people throughout europe.

It is certain that the institution of christianity, as embodied in the heirarchy of the catholic church, came to do great evil throughout much of the world. This extnds a great many ways, and I have talked about many aspects of this many times (some recently here).

But your statements are a bit too black and white to capture the true impact of christianity as a whole.

There is much good. There is much evil. It is a human fault that exists with or without the religion itself.

The religion is at it's worst in it's capacity to give evil mean leave to do whatever they want in the name of god, and to feel that they have not only right but obligation to do so...which is, of course, a multiplying effect on the human mind.

A bit rambling, I realize...
condensed point is: the spread of christianity in europe had a very positive effect initially. It put a stop to a great deal of violence. It spread literacy and education. The good things that were gained never went away. It also introduced new reasons for and methods of evil acts by men. The good does not outwiegh the evil, and even if it did it could never excuse it.

But it's important that we do not obliterate the good in exposing the evil, or paint things with such broad strokes that we end up the same as the zealots whose actions are being condemned.

I pretty much agree with you Dl. The problem with discussing such matters with the religious is they have this overwhelming desire to refuse to see just how naked the emporer is.

I therefore find it is necessary to speak to them in short, hard words, fraught with reality.

Comparing DL with Jade was only insofar as he used the same sort of argeument in his response. For the most part he seems to be one of the 'good' xians. Often downright rational.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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Jade, if our God is everything He claims to be, how can anything said in these halls either by heathen or protestant be cause for such defensiveness? You've alienated me to a degree because whenever I've tried to offer honest advice to you about how you interact with others here, you seem to think I'm out to get you too. Just my 2 cents.

---

Thank you for you 2 cents bugs. I thought your God was my God??? If you really see who I inter-act the most with its mostly two atheist, DL and Web. And maybe Ruski. And they are such nice, caring posters who are extremely nice to me. They treat and welcome all new posters with warmth. You have alientated me a long time ago but I never have alienated you.

For the most part of my interactive post, with you bugs, you do not for the most part ever-have considered me a Christian. You side with all others against me for the most part. I am the only catholic on this forum who speaks the truth of what Catholics are and believe. But if you are truly a Christian, you see Christ in all people, even athiest. I take all punches and if I come across as combative its because from day one I have been considered with bigtory even from you. We agree on very little as Christians because you consider me un-christian. Do not think I can read between the lines in your post. You post of welcomes and camadarie and speak of peace. Surely you post what people want to hear to stay on their good side. Good for you. In the face of adveristy, I have continued to state what scripture teaches, even if its not popular. I only try to fulfill my mission in walking the way of the one who sends who was not a very popular person either. I make no judgements on who is a Christian and who isn't. I consider all protestants christians in their walk to serve the Lord. In all his sincerity, I believe Gideon truly loves the lord in all his honesty. I can read his heart in his post. He faces adversity in his reply post all the time, but still he continues to love his God. I am impressed. Stay on course Gideon, you are not far from the kingdom. "He who hears you, hears me" in the words of Jesus Christ. And I do hear you.

quote:

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Equating Bugimus with Jade is not fair in the slightest.

---

In what way DL? Is he a nicer more giving person that I am?

(Edited by jade on 03-01-2005 15:11)

Oh great

In the span of just a few posts I have been misunderstood and/or misquoted by three people.

~sigh~

S'ok, I'll respond in detail once I get a spare moment...

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Again I ask, if the "kingdom" (another archaic and outdated concept) is such a great place, why is it so many good xians spend so much money and use up so many medical resources trying to extend their stay on earth?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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In what way DL? Is he a nicer more giving person that I am?

---

I wouldn't know.

But he is a rational, intelligent person who has taken the time to educate himself about the origins of his religion. I still disagree with him on the most fundamental of issues, and we come to very different conclusions based upon many issues that we actually agree on.

But he has proven himself educated in the matters of history that are so often a concern in the course of his religion, and can talk about such things honestly and in an informed manner.

You, on the other hand, do nothing but deflect, deny, deceive (yourself primarliy) and have proven to be very uneducated as to the actual history of your religion, and are far too prone to trying to play the martyr when there is simiply no cause. You behave like a child in need of extra attention, and will get it however you can.

And no, I won't sit and discuss the issue. You asked, I answered. End of story for me.

=)

NoJive,

I thought that you misunderstood me but upon re-reading your post I take that back. Your first paragraph points out a truth. According to Xianity, the *only* way to the big ride in the sky is the Jesus ticket.

The remainder of your post also affirms a fundamental aspect of Xianity, which is that none of us can attain eternal life by how many good works we perform. The only way any of us will see heaven is by the grace of God.

I really don't recall if I ever answered your "escape clause" question, I think I have in the past. But I think you know perfectly well the answer and I acknowledge it. If Hitler were to have accepted Christ before his death, he would have been forgiven for his sins. That goes for you, me, Jews, Nazis and *anyone* who wants it.

On one hand Xianity is very exclusive because there is only *one* way to salvation. On the other hand it is utterly non-discriminatory in that the salvation offered is open to any and all people regardless of their past transgressions.

I have a question for you related to your "escape clause". I presume you believe Hitler will burn for his actions? I don't recall if you believe in an afterlife or not. Either way would it be safe to assume you think you are a better human being than him? If so, do you deserve more than him? Where is the line drawn between "good" people and "bad" people? Are you the judge of that? If not, who is? I guess that turned into a few questions instead of just one.


Ehtheist,

I hold DL-44's objectivity, reasoning and honesty in the highest regard. His reply to your "Xianity has brought grief and pain and death wherever it has sent it's tentacles" was tempered and accurate. I'm pleased you agree basically with it.

quote:

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The point you xian apologists avoid, by pointing out other people kill, rape and maim, is that other people-Pol Pots of the world don't hold themselves out to be paragons of virtue!

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Actually, the Pol Pots of the world do hold themselves out to be paragons of virtue but more to the point, what does that reply have to do with anything I said? You've confused me with someone that is making excuses for the evils done in the name of Xianity. Go back and read *my* posts and you will see I don't do that.

There are two reasons I mentioned the atheist based atrocities of the last century:
1) Because they happened and to illustrate humanity's depravity.
2) To ratchet your smugness down a notch. Some of your posts with regard to tone and gross generalization are hard to distinguish from those of self-righteous religious zealots. This is merely an observation and addresses your methods, not your positions.

quote:

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Again I ask, if the "kingdom" (another archaic and outdated concept) is such a great place, why is it so many good xians spend so much money and use up so many medical resources trying to extend their stay on earth?

---

I will give you a straight answer for how Xians *should* regard the point you mention. As the apostle Paul explained there would (will) be nothing better than to finally meet Christ face to face in glory. Why linger here? The answer is very simple. We stay here for as long as we can reach others. There are millions of people in this world who have never even heard of Jesus Christ. It is not enough to be satisfied that you have eternal life when your friends, family and neighbors do not.

I'm sure that is not the answer you wanted to hear. Surely it was your intention to point out how hypocritical some xians are. Well, it is a simple fact that many xians are such. It sure doesn't help make the faith attractive to outsiders as you have stated. Like I said before, it makes my job that much harder.


Jade,

I wrote "OUR God" not "YOUR God". Please take another look at my post.

I'm afraid that you think if someone agrees with you that they automatically like you as a person. I'm also afraid that you think if someone disagrees with you they automatically dislike you as a person. I am trying to get you to see that you have every right to your own opinions but you cannot expect everyone to agree with them. It's ok if they don't, everyone here has the right to disagree and criticize ideas, beliefs and opinions. There is simply no reason to take disagreement personally! Can you see that?

quote:

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For the most part of my interactive post, with you bugs, you do not for the most part ever-have considered me a Christian

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Ok, now you're just being paranoid. I know there are many protestants who don't consider Catholics to be xians. I am not one of them. I do consider you a sister in the faith, I hope you can accept that.

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Just to make people happy, Hitler will burn. As his final act was him killing himself (a sin), so no matter what he burns, at least according to the Christian faith.

Ok back to your regular slicing and dicing of each others basic patterns of belief and non-belief.

Dan @ Code Town

Just a little discourse among... fellow inmates, WM. No worries

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Ok bug, I speak frankly and don't believe in PC or pussy-footing. Too much chance for mis-understanding with thos approaches.

It looked to me as though you were adopting the jade approach, divert and change the subject. If it were not your intent, I accept that.

Burt please, leave those millions of people who have never heard of xianity alone in their bliss.

If your contention is accurate, they will go to their just rewards anyway, without having to put up with all that original sin bs and other guilt trips.

I know you and your ilk feel you are commended by your god to spread the news. I beg of you to keep it to yourself, it is pretty much all bad news. By all means, welcome those who come to you of their own accord, but leave those who either have their own beliefs or none, alone. They are really much happier in the long run.

Then too, there would be no reason for xians to delay their departure.

If Pol Pot or his sort held themselves out to be pargons of virtue I must have missed that press release.

Even if they did, they are individuals...not a world-wide conspiracy as xianity is. My comment stands.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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And no, I won't sit and discuss the issue. You asked, I answered. End of story for me.

---

DL
Oh my goodness...... looks who acting childlike too.

Your view of my uneducated knowledge on religion doesn't surprise because usually if you have your mind made up already, you stay where your at. You will not grow. You are no more educatated than I am in regard to religion. I have taken two years of theology, which includes church history, doctrines, and bible courses, not to mention 12 years of catholic school. And in the course of this I have been a catechist (teach religion to high schoolers) for over 15 years, which requires much study and training seminars. I do very much believe I still need much much more schooling. No doubt you believe its misquided or not credible because of where it originates. I have given my life to Jesus at a very early age. In fact grade school is when I decided to immerse myself to do the will of the Jesus.

And you shouldn't throw stones either, since you have shooed many would be permanent posters away with your attitude on this forum. I have witnessed many confrontative post when people don't agree with you and you irritate them so that they leave forever.

Bugs, I know you said our, but I just didn't believe it, since I seldom see you post when discussions regarding general Christian religious issues come up and I am involved. I just feel your guarded and don't want to trample on toes for fear of being seen in a negative light in associatin with me. For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum. You come across as a nice man with well thought out responses and don't repeat yourself as DL does. I hope your thoughts reach the depths of some godless souls here. I don't agree with your assement of me though. I force my opinions on no one and if you could really be objecive you wuld see that many persons on this form do. So why do you single me out since you seem to police this forum.

quote:

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And no, I won't sit and discuss the issue. You asked, I answered. End of story for me.

---

DL
Oh my goodness...... looks who acting childlike too.

Your view of my uneducated knowledge on religion doesn't surprise because usually if you have your mind made up already, you stay where your at. You will not grow. You are no more educatated than I am in regard to religion. I have taken two years of theology, which includes church history, doctrines, and bible courses, not to mention 12 years of catholic school. And in the course of this I have been a catechist (teach religion to high schoolers) for over 15 years, which requires much study and training seminars. I do very much believe I still need much much more schooling. No doubt you believe its misquided or not credible because of where it originates. I have given my life to Jesus at a very early age. In fact grade school is when I decided to immerse myself to do the will of the Jesus.

And you shouldn't throw stones either, since you have shooed many would be permanent posters away with your attitude on this forum. I have witnessed many confrontative post when people don't agree with you and you irritate them so that they leave forever.

Bugs, I know you said our, but I just didn't believe it, since I seldom see you post when discussions regarding general Christian religious issues come up and I am involved. I just feel your guarded and don't want to trample on toes for fear of being seen in a negative light in associatin with me. For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum. You come across as a nice man with well thought out responses and don't repeat yourself as DL does. I hope your thoughts reach the depths of some godless souls here. I don't agree with your assement of me though. I force my opinions on no one and if you could really be objecive you would see that many persons on this form do. So why do you single me out ???

(Edited by jade on 03-02-2005 16:12)

Jade, poor Jade.

You doubtless have a well grounded education in your religion. But, all that training and information came from your religion and you can be sure it left out all the rough stuff, the unpleasant history and all of the truth.

If you are truly a seeker of truth and knowledge, you must look to find information outside of church-sanctioned sources.

Don't let your friends and church authorities know you are doing this, they frown on people learning the truth.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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Don't let your friends and church authorities know you are doing this, they frown on people learning the truth.

---

So you believe the RC is conspiring too? Do you? In your opinion why? Does this refer to other institutions too, like the jews, muslims, buddist, and the protestants, etc. Or just he RCs?

So, what is the truth as you know it? And the baisis for it and were you in a religion before?

(Edited by jade on 03-02-2005 17:16)

^hahahaha

Ok Jade, this is getting a bit ridiculous.

Let us assume for a moment, that you know all there is to know on your Chruch and Religion (or at least, that you have a good, solid understanding of it).

So tell us about the Crusades, the Inquisition and about the Witch Hunts (which actually started, if I am not wrong, in Germany - and was horrendous there) and was repeated again in Salem.

I am interested in hearing what you think you know about these sponsered events from the RC organization.

After that, I think we will start with the "New World" - both the Americas and Australia.

WebShaman, I agree with you, but it was not the RC church in Salem, Mass. It was a Christian sect, specifically the Puritans, but they were not Catholic.

WS - If we are going to discuss the history, we should at least start at the beginning...

The points of history that so many christians seem to want to deny the most (for reasons I can't really grasp) are the actual roots of the religion. The simple fact that the catholic church did not exist as we know it until well into the 4th century. That the idea of the 'papacy' didn't come about until still later than that. That there was no actual unified collective before that. That there was not only one manner of christianity, that it was a diverse collection of groups with sometimes drastically different views.

Not only different interpretations of "scripture", but, in fact, many different collections of scripture from which to draw their interpretations.

The formation of the catholic church was begun by the secular ruler of Rome, not the religious world. It was not a move that simply put in place the existing doctrines of christianity, it was one which *decided* what those doctirnes would be. Things like 'was mary a virgin?' and 'was jesus god?' and the like were decided.

How many groups were there, exactly? Pretty hard to say. It is very clear, however, that there were many. And when the time came, all of them were as convinced that there version of christianity was the one. Only one group won the right to call their's 'orthodox' though. Only they won the right to burn alive the people who said they were wrong. Only they won the right to tell people what collections of scripture they could use, and what the interpretations of them were.

If we could get the proper historical grounding for the catholic church established, it would be easier to then address the subsequent historical events.

If we can't even get the facts straight on the beginnings...how can we move on from there?



(Edited by DL-44 on 03-03-2005 01:21)

No paranoia Jade, I have full distrust in all religions and learned that distrust at the tender age of 9, when I was punished by the local church for asking questions they couldn't answer.

The RC are just the worst of a bad lot.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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but it was not the RC church in Salem, Mass.

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Yes, I am aware of that, briggl - but the Witch Hunts that got started in Germany actually were instigated by the RC - I'm sure the Puritans got this idea from there.

quote:

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WS - If we are going to discuss the history, we should at least start at the beginning...

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I think that is an excellent idea, DL. Ok...let us then start with the beginning, and then move on.

So, just waiting for Jade...come, inform us.

(Edited by WebShaman on 03-03-2005 17:30)

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/catholic.htm

From the outset, this religion was so unpalatable they had to adopt pagan holy days and gods to attract people.

According to many investigators Xist, if he existed, was more likely born in June (yes, he may be a gemini) than December, but the pagan ritual in December, marking the end of the long nights and the slow return of the long days, was chosen in order to gather more attendees.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

^ practices like that were very common through out the history, even image of Jesus and God both visually and conceptually developed on other beliefs.

The adoptation of Roman looking like emperor with the beard and purple toga with gold stripes happened during Byzantine times.

The replacement of statues of Pagan Greek Gods with Christian Saints.

The halo of saints comes from Egyptian sun disks representing sun god.

The adoptation of Roman architecture for Catholic church etc etc etc.

I know for a fact that only if modern Chriatians were aware of early christian history, beliefs and art they produced and how interpretated them, not to mention how many things they adopted from other beliefs/cultures/etc

It would be pretty surprising even to them.

It might be surprising yes, but would it diminish their beliefs at all. No.

All of these events can be interpereted in a spirtitual fashion. All of these events can even be actively incorporated into their religion.

For example us Americans celebrate Independence Day on the 4th of July, however, this was not the actual day that these events happenned. It is just how it was remembered. I believe it was good old Ben Franklin with a bad memory who made this mistake.

The problem with a lot of people in these religions is that they will claim that these historical facts are not true, as if accepting that these things happened somehow invalidates their belief system.

Say Jesus was born in June, does that invalidate the celebration of Christmas? Or if his death wasn't in March, does that invalidate the celebration of Easter. Of course not, so the dates are wrong. You are still showing your appreciation and worship, and you are still praising the fact that these two important events did in fact occur.

Again the problem isn't that there might be problems with specifics in the religion, the problem is the denial that there are be problems.

Dan @ Code Town

quote:

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jade said:

Bugs, I know you said our, but I just didn't believe it, since I seldom see you post when discussions regarding general Christian religious issues come up and I am involved. I just feel your guarded and don't want to trample on toes for fear of being seen in a negative light in associatin with me.

---

You're absolutely right that I tend to shy away from those types of threads. That was what I meant earlier about feeling alienated. First and foremost, it is important to be honest with one another here. When I have been honest with you in the past with constructive criticism of your discussion methods, it seemed to me that you took it as a personal attack. Specifically, this has happened when I have agreed with DL when he has spoken truth on a matter and disagreed with you when you had erred.

Often times, speaking the truth hurts not just the one being told but also the speaker. On one hand, I don't want to hurt a family member but on the other I cannot perpetuate error. The priority here should be clear. But just in case it is not. Truth and doing what is right supercedes family every time. Jesus himself taught this concept.

So I admit fully that because I don't like to be in the situation described above, I tend to avoid those types of threads. Now that we are airing this out a bit, I will no longer hold back.

quote:

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jade said:

For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum.

---

Stop linking agreement/disagreement with positions with friend/enemy or us/them. My friends in these halls are my fellow inmates of which you, Gid, etc. are also members. I try not to discriminate. I try to treat everyone here as objectively and Christ like as I can. I am really trying to get you to see that people aren't out to get you.

But you know what? This isn't supposed to be about you... or me. This is about community and building relationships, dialogue and good will. Didn't our beloved Apostle Paul say, "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy"? That means to avoid those toes wherever possible and yet remain firm on the important things.

quote:

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jade said:

I don't agree with your assement of me though. I force my opinions on no one and if you could really be objecive you would see that many persons on this form do. So why do you single me out ???

---

I didn't say you forced your opinions on anyone. I said that you equate disagreement with your opinions with people not liking you as a person. Trust me, you do it and it's hurting you.

If I were singling you out, then you would be the only person I've had this conversation with and you're not. I am telling you these things for your benefit and to the benefit of this asylum.

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Well said Bugs.

I find this remark very puzzling

quote:

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For the most part, I see you as not objective and a little bias with your camaderie of friends on this forum.

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Camaderie of friends?

Certainly Bugs is great to have in discussions, because he communicates cleverly and intelligently. But as DL has pointed out before, there are those of us that disagree with Bugs' conclusions. There are also times when I and Bugs got into it rather heatedly (I can remember som Iraq threads vividly), and I know that DL and I have had disagreements in the past, as well. And that is normal, really. People have different views on things, and different beliefs. The real question is, can one support one's views and beliefs in an intelligent and logical manner? I (and others) will attest to the fact that Bugs does, and can.

So though I may disagree with Bugs' views and/or beliefs, I have respect for the manner and method in which he supports them. And that has nothing to do with friendship or camaderie.

So which camaderie of friends are you talking about, Jade?

(Edited by WebShaman on 03-03-2005 21:57)

quote:

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Now that we are airing this out a bit, I will no longer hold back.

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Thank you for this. Never hold back. I get personal to dig deep, but not to hurt.

quote:

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I am really trying to get you to see that people aren't out to get you.

---

I never really thought this way. Please believe me. But in my discussions regarding Christianity of the RC doesn't the issue of sexual abuse of the Catholic priest come up with posters every time directed at me and by the same posters. Can you deny this? And Bugs I want to personally ask you why does it? Do they do this to try to hurt me? Because it does not hurt me. Its like if that is all the institution of the church stands for. You cannot have an intelligent conversation with posters who keep bringing up past disgressions. It childish. Its like if you have a fight with your friend or wife of something and were inflicted with great hurt . And then you forgive and move on, but in future agruments, you keep bringing up the past to hurt. How can I not seem defensive. Its a total rehash over and over. Since day one on this forum, can you say that I get the brunt of anger focused on the whole church? Please be honest. I know no one is out to get me personally.

quote:

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Trust me, you do it and it's hurting you.

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In what way? In the real world of daily living here in the US of A, people are friends no matter what sect . You are not judged by your religion or how you worship. We are so respectful in our regard to treat each person with dignity, love and compassion no matter what faith.

(Edited by jade on 03-03-2005 23:56)

quote:

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But in my discussions regarding Christianity of the RC doesn't the issue of sexual abuse of the Catholic priest come up with posters every time directed at me and by the same posters.

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When you ask for examplesof the negative aspects of the roman cahtolic church, do you expect this to *NOT* come up?

This is not a "past" transgression. This issue is very current, and very relevent.

quote:

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Do they do this to try to hurt me? Because it does not hurt me.

---

This is ludicrous. If it hurts you to discuss the things that have heppened in the institution of the catholic church, then I'm afraid I don't know what to tell you.

On the other hand, as Bugs has tried so hard to get across to you, if you take a person's stance on the issues at hand to be some sort of personal attack, that is very clearly *your* issue, and noone else's.

quote:

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You cannot have an intelligent conversation with posters who keep bringing up past disgressions.

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And you cannot have a conversation about history, as many of these conversations have been, without talking about the past. Hello?

And of course, I must reiterate - we are not talking strictly in the past when we talk about preiest-related sexual abuse. There are some very current cases still, and there are a lot of "past" issues that are still being resolved in the legal sense, and there is still a *very* huge burden on the church to *prove* that they are actively doing something about this issue, and not still stuck in "damage control" PR mode. They have not done this, period.

The simple fact that you prefer to deny wrongdoing on behalf of the catholic church, throughout many aspects of it's history and its present, does not nullify such wrongdoing.

If you take this as a personal attack, or as "hurtful" to you, I don't know what to tell you. It speaks of some serious arrogance and delusion to put yourself at the center of everything like that.
To be clear:

it's not all about you, dear.

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Its a total rehash over and over.

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You ask over and over.

And when the same answer that you refused to address every time before is again given, you throw a tantrum and refuse to address the issue.

You belittle the things done over and over in an effort to simply sweep them under the carpet and say "it's in the past". Well it's simply *not* in the past. It's not over, because people like you consistently brush it off, and it has not ever been appropriately addressed in a serious fashion by the church.

quote:

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Since day one on this forum, can you say that I get the brunt of anger focused on the whole church?

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What is this anger you are seeing jade? There's that delusion again!

You insert yourself into issues where the church is ebing discussed, and attempt to refute everything ebing said. You very often do this without regard to truth. You do it out of an emotional sense of obligation or loyalty to the church, but without regard to reality.

And when you do this, people don't simply accept it and go "gee, ok". There are a lot of people around here with a very big interest in both history andn the human psyche. These interests more or less require an understanding of religion, especially in a historical sense. You simply cannot learn about european, russian or mediteranean history without learning a great deal about christianity, and the roman catholic church.

You need to understand that you are dealing with educated people for whom chruch doctrine will *not* be satisfactory as an answer.

If that upsets you, remember that you have no obligation to insert yourself in such discussions.

If you *do* wish to be part of such discussions, then you need to thicken that skin, and you need to lose the childish antagonism/martyr complex.

Nice post.

Agreed.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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If we could get the proper historical grounding for the catholic church established, it would be easier to then address the subsequent historical events.

If we can't even get the facts straight on the beginnings...how can we move on from there?

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quote:

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I think that is an excellent idea, DL. Ok...let us then start with the beginning, and then move on.

So, just waiting for Jade...come, inform us.

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You guys have been on the asylum awhile and I have posted the historic beginnings of when the Roman church started. You guys just don't agree. Look at any secular history book or even the encyclopedia and you can read it. Its just that many have their own interpretations on when they think the RC started. It was not, definitely Constantine who started it. That goes against the history books.

And Web, isn't it wrong to judge a whole sect of people on the actions of a few men. EVen in the history of the RC church it has struggled to survive because of the actions of men who gave into evil. Per scripture, even evil will enter the church and try to bring it down. This includes witch buring, the inquistion, crusades, etc.

quote:

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And Web, isn't it wrong to judge a whole sect of people on the actions of a few men.

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Not when the people go along with those few. Then they are as guilty as those who lead them. Turning a blind eye does not excuse one of guilt.

Those "few" that attempt to lead, can only do so through the masses.

Ok. Out of the billions of followers in the world that belong to this sect how can we determine who thinks the same way and how can we determine who helped cover it up and went along with it. Lets pick Poland. Out of the millions of followers there that worship in that country, are they guilty too, or is it just USA followers?

What would be your advice??

How can you determine who is turning a blind eye. Lets take Mexico, whos population is 95% catholic, should we blame them too? And what about the Muslim sect? Should we blame all Musilms on the action of the extremist Muslims who murder in the name of Allah?

the truth revealed at last;

http://www.janthor.de/anycolor/c505.htm


Another pov

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761573737&pn=3

Apparently much of history fails to agree with Jade's revisionist version.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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I have posted the historic beginnings of when the Roman church started. You guys just don't agree.

---

I consider myself fairly well educated in this matter.

I have read many books on the subject, some directly, some incidentally, from a wide variety of sources.

What you have posted as "history" has been nothing more than church dogma that attempts to accredidate something that is simply not true.

There simply was not any one solidly existing church before the timie of Constantine. He was a major force in bringing the bishops together in order for them to develop a more unified version of the religion.

The divergences right from the *very* beginning are astounding.

The variances in what was considered scripture have been astounding.

To say that the catholic church has existed since day one is purely silly. Even a dabbling of education in the area verifies that.

Jade -
WebShaman is not saying that the blame lies on 100% of the Catholic population. What I believe he is stating is that if the followers simply go along with what the church leaders tell them to do without question, then they are as guilty as those that lead. If it is as you say per scripture that evil will enter the church, then does responsibility not fall to the follower to be ever-watchful for that evil? If a follower witnesses evil, and does nothing then they simply help perpetrate that evil. This makes them guilty as well. It is difficult to say in the child-molestation scandal how many of the parishners knew what was happening. However, there were many among the clergy who did know and did nothing or perpetuated the crimes by moving violators from one place to another. This was not the case with the witch hunts, the inquisition nor the crusades. The church leaders told the followers that those acts were right, and the masses did not rebel or disagree. This makes them guilty as well. As long as we're throwing about random analogies to place each other in, here is a scenario for you, Jade: If the pope (generic pope here - not specifically refering to the existing one...) were to declare it right and just and your duty as a Catholic to kill all non-believers, including christians who were not Catholic - would you simply carry out this edict or would you question this?

]

Hello MD, Nice to see your post. Have not heard from you in awhile.

I did understand the point being made. I make apologies for this horrible act of the scandal that has been done by some persons, even though I have not been a part of it. I believe in my heart most of the sect, lets say 99.9 percent of the catholic poplulation did not know of this terrible crime. So that being said, we never would have allowed it to continue. Had there been other bishops, priest who knew of it they would have stopped it. Scandal and schisms have long been a part of Christianity from the early ages. But these crimes were and are commited by people. Not Christ and his church.
Why is the institution blamed? Its seems unfair.

[quote]If the pope (generic pope here - not specifically refering to the existing one...) were to declare it right and just and your duty as a Catholic to kill all non-believers, including christians who were not Catholic - would you simply carry out this edict or would you question this?[/quote

It seems like this question should be aimed at some zealous religious who will do anything in the name of God. (Sounds like something a religious extremsist would do) MD. I don't think John Paul would ask this of us. For you to think that he would, or a prior pope of this century would leaves me to wonder about why you would ask such a thing No. My pope would never ask this and I would never kill. Its against the commandments. It would be mortal evil to kill. John Paul is sweet loving embracing person.

DL you remain true to form: Your view of when Christianity started will never change. But its just a view. Not fact. You view is at odds with historic scholars. But that ok if we differ.

quote:

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But its just a view. Not fact. You view is at odds with historic scholars.

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No, it clearly is not. It is at odds with church doctrine. I am not interested in church doctrine. I prefer a less biased source of history.

My "view" changes with the evidence. The evidence, and the broad range of scholarly opinion, supports my view.

Sorry you can't accept that...

jade: Moon Dancer specifically mentiond a generic pope which excludes John Paul.

quote:

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My pope would never ask this and I would never kill. Its against the commandments

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Such consideration did not prevented previous popes to launch the crusades.

Jade - The question I posed to you was not aimed at John Paul. It was directed as a hypothetical question on your institution and how you as a follower would react. You wouldn't kill because it is evil and against the commandments - but this question is not without precedent. The point is that where you would not do such a thing - there are those that would because the leader of their church told them to. That is the power of blind faith. You ask why the institution is blamed? The institution does not exist without people. I can't name you all of the Inquisitors nor those who whipped up the knights into a frenzy during the Crusades - those are individuals whose names have been lost to time. However, I can tell you that these were members of the Catholic faith, and that these awful events went on for centuries. If the institution were not to blame, then we would not be talking about hundreds of years of murder, fear and hatred. It is the institution which fostered these events. When the Catholic chruch began to splinter it no longer became the sole instigator of heinous acts. The Witch Hunts in New England were not sponsored by the Catholic church but were perpetrated by the Puritans. There is plenty of blame to go around. What you need to come to terms with Jade is that for the greatest amount of time in the history of Christianity, your chruch has been the primary player - and as such has committed some of the worst acts sponsored by the faith.

This does not negate all the awful things that any other religious group through out the course of history has committed. It is simply a fact. And speaking of facts - the "view" of the history of Christianity that DL refers to is the same that I was taught in public school. This is not a "view", it is fact.

You are in total denial Jade.

The offenses were committed by priests/clergy.

The coverups were committed by other prists/clergy...bishops, cardinals and there is no reason to suspect the various popes and other church heads were unaware of what was going on.

The rot is at the very top despite your vigorous denial.

The same stands for the origins of your church, DL and others have proven that time and again here, but it just doesn't suit your clouded version of reality does it?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Just a rectification :
jade:

quote:

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Out of the billions of followers in the world that belong to this sect

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First the Christians are ~1 billion, not several billions. Still this estimation is based on the number of person baptized ... and does not take into account the thousands/millions of people baptized without their wise approval or who no longer believe or worse who don't know they can apostatize.

quote:

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This does not negate all the awful things that any other religious group through out the course of history has committed. It is simply a fact. And speaking of facts - the "view" of the history of Christianity that DL refers to is the same that I was taught in public school. This is not a "view", it is fact

---

.

OK. MD .State the facts as you know them on church history that public school taught you and DL. ANd we will see how we differ in historical fact. You seem to portray a institution of religion as a evil empire out to destroy and massacre. So how can much good come from evil who claim themselves to be christian. Are we all misguided according to your view because of who one billion something of the world population belongs to? I ask this in all sincerity and ask you to make judgements when you have all the facts on both side as opposed to getting a bias view.

Ohh boy...back to square one.

Must we go over again and again and again.......

Jade when will you stop narrowing things down to your black and white, good and evil interpretations?

This is exactly why it is impossible to explain anything to you.

No wonder Etheits called you "a catholic version of Gideon"

quote:

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State the facts as you know them on church history

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I've done that many times.

I didn't learn about it in public school, however, I have learned through years of study of history (which obviously must cover the history of the church, given the huge role that it has played throughout history).

How 'bout this:

*you* state the facts that your alleged scholars use to contradict what I have said about the early churches.

And please - leave your insecurities out of it, and stop makin accusations about people's motives!

Jade, merely re-read this and the other thread where you have been shown the truth on numerous occasions with links to various authorities.

Try to do this without the catholic blinders on.

I doubt any of us is very much interested in, as Ruski so aptly stated starting from "square one".

I was going to say from "scratch" but of course "scratch" is and old term for the other myth your faith conjured up, the devil!

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

I will not get my sources from catholic history, just secular history.

MD or DL Lets narrow it down and take the first 500 years of Christianity starting with the death of Jesus. Are you game?

quote:

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was going to say from "scratch" but of course "scratch" is and old term for the other myth your faith conjured up, the devil!

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Well, I think all other Christian denominations believe in the devil too Ehtheist. Meaning the Lutherans, CHurch of CHrist, Episcopilians, Presbyterians, Jews, Greek and Russian Orthodox, non-denominations and even the differents sects of Baptists, etc.

quote:

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MD or DL Lets narrow it down and take the first 500 years of Christianity starting with the death of Jesus. Are you game?

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Game?

I've talked quite a bit on the subject.

All you've done is say "no, you contradict the scholars"

well? show me...

Don't be so self-centred Jade, obviously I meant xianity as whole.

Ya, it will be interesting to see if she can find some bona-fide secular sources which substantially contradict what we have all provided.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

'We're all entitled to our own opinions.... just not our own facts.' Said someone much wiser. =)

quote:

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I've talked quite a bit on the subject.

All you've done is say "no, you contradict the scholars"

well? show me...

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How come I don't remember you talking quite a bit on the subject?. All I can say about you is you point to three subjects. Spanish Inquistions, Crusades and the priest scandal. And maybe alittle about Constantine. Well, is this all you want to discuss? Though these are parts of its history, its not by a long shot all its history. Why don't you show me since your so educated on the subject of the history of Christianity. Lets not pick and choose. Lets start from the beginning. You show me what you have first.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#Roots_of_Christianity

(Edited by jade on 03-09-2005 08:36)

jade:

quote:

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Though these are parts of its history, its not by a long shot all its history

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You missed the centuries till the end of the Middle Age, beginning of the Rennaissance where the uneducated mass had to embrace the RC or be punished by the clergy. This aspect represent about half of the history of the Christianity.

IIRC you have some children, no ? Therefore I'd like to go on the topic of the imposition of faith on others. Have you baptized your children ? do they pray/go to church ? If so, have they wisely approved/asked to be baptized, and do they pray/go to church sincerely or to please/do like their mum ?

[edit] I think you answered my question in The existence of God.... thread, where you don't blush to claim the Christian parents force their faith on their children. [/edit]



(Edited by poi on 03-09-2005 13:02)

Also, under - 19th century, the point - Missionaries and Colonialism is left blank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism

Oops forgot this. Lets read and disuss. OK?

quote:

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ll I can say about you is you point to three subjects. Spanish Inquistions, Crusades and the priest scandal.

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I have mentioned the crusades a couple of times. The inquisition *perhaps* once.

Child rape by priests I have talked about on several occasions, yes.

The early history of the church I have talked about a great many times, even back before your 'hiatus'.

And if you don't remember me talking about it, how can you say that "my view never changes" and rail about how wrong I am about it?

As for what I've got?

Some recommended reading, for starters -

Lost Christianities: The Battle for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew
by Bart D. Ehrman

The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament
by Bart D. Ehrman

Medieval Experience: 300-1400
by N. Claster

Desire of the Everlasting Hills : The World Before and After Jesus (Hinges of History)
by THOMAS CAHILL

The Gifts of the Jews : How a Tribe of Desert Nomads Changed the Way Everyone Thinks and Feels (Hinges of History)
by Thomas Cahill

A History of Private Life: From Pagan Rome to Byzantium
by Paul Veyne

A History of Private Life: Revelations of the Medieval World
by Georges Duby

All very good reading. Will have to recheck my bookshelves for further reading...

The bottom line is, there is simply no way to directly link the organization that is the Catholic Church to the time of the death of Jesus. The gaps, the divergences, the sheer number of variations of christianity all trying to take hold excludes the possibility of one dominant continous legacy of "christianity". There were at least dozens of gospels, there were countless letters, epistles, revelations, etc. There were scores of views on the manner of the divinity of Jesus. On the nature of god. On the means of salvation.

One view eventually, through the works of the councils called by Constantine and his succesors, came to be dominant. A set of books that came the closest to supporting that view was selected to be "scripture". The bishop in Rome came to be considered more important, and eventually became the authority figure we call the "pope" today ("pope" was a generic term for priest, coming from the greek term for father, which came to be used in the modern sense, referring 'unofficially' to the bishop of Rome over time...).

Many of the so called heretical views persisted for many centuries after being declared heretical.

Some even continue today, though certainly twisted far from their roots as well...

Gosh. OK. This is lots of reading here. Are these written by unbias historians? I will check th web.

LOL ^

Interesting link, includes a catholic apologist's quotes, admitting the church did NOT start with the mythical xist.

Is a catholic apologist 'unbiased' enough for you Jade?

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate22.htm

I have lots more Jade.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Wait a minute. I think we will refer to un-bias sources who don't have a beef against rome. Please. . Why would you believe what he as to say. . Usually when one leaves the church there are many different factors invovled. The internet is full of ex-catholics who go against the RC and voice their opinion on why they left the churchh. Why would you think they are true???

Jade -

quote:

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So how can much good come from evil who claim themselves to be christian. Are we all misguided according to your view because of who one billion something of the world population belongs to?

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Since when has doing something "good" precluded someone from doing something "evil"? Since when has saving a person crossing the street today given me the right to kill someone tomorrow? NEVER! The church has done things for the betterment of man and for the detrement of man. To not acknowledge the darkness within you will never truly understand the light that can be and SHOULD be within the church and its followers.

GD

(Edited by GrythusDraconis on 03-09-2005 18:32)

I advocate full and open disclosure when it comes to how things are done in the xian faith. There is no benefit whatsoever in denying the evil that religion can cause. It is like anything else in this world, it has to be used and applied *correctly* for it to benefit humankind.

GD, after reading your last sentence there, I could not help but think of this passage:

quote:

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If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
--1 John 1:8

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: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 03-09-2005 19:40)

^Amen, Bugs. I agree wholeheartedly.

Umm Jade, I don't see where the chap quoted is described as having left the church, but rather as a catholic historian.

I suppose the fact he doesn't measure up to what you want to see, could lead you directly to the conclusion he can't possibly be a catholic.

I suppose too, is it foreign to your experience for a catholic scholar to be honest?

It has been suggested you know little of your own faith's factual history.

You prove the truth of this with every post. You also prove yopu are either totally unwilling or completely incapabale of accepting anything but what has been force-fed for lo, these many years.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

---

Who am I? I am a cradle Catholic by birth and Baptism, software engineer/web development by profession, with a B.S. degree in Computer Science from USF (I am now trying to teach myself Game Programming). I was influenced in my early 20's by such noted Evangelical and Fundamentalist apologists as Walter Martin, Norm Geisler, John Ankerberg, Dave Hunt, and later James White, etc. I still enjoy and use some of their Evangelical apologetics (for example, on my defense of the Holy Trinity). In 1992, I discovered Catholic Answers and read Karl Keating's classic Catholicism and Fundamentalism which helped me realize the flaws in some of their Evangelical Protestant (and sometimes anti-Catholic) apologetics. This Rock magazine and the tapes of St. Joseph Communications (Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Gerry Matatics in his glory years) have also been crucial influences in bringing me back to the Church (I am a revert of sorts

---

Etheist. I don't think he is a historian from this bio but reading thru his site, its pro-catholicism. And I was researching seculcar sources. Thanks anyway.

It's important to realize that there is no such thing as an unbiased person.

It's also not in any way helpful to exclude historical writing simply because the author is catholic, former-catholic, protestant, atheist, or whatever.

Each piece needs to be judged on the merits of its content...

I *will* respond in regard to the wiki entry you posted, jade. Just haven't had the time so far.

Focusing on the *early* history is a very good thing I'm pleased we're on this track.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Dodging and ducking Jade:

This is the fellow quoted; http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.st-georgen.uni-frankfurt.de/lehrende/schatz.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DKlaus%2BSchatz%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

This is his quote from my link:

There appears at the present time to be increasing consensus among Catholic and non-Catholic exegetes regarding the Petrine office in the New Testament?.

The further question whether there was any notion of an enduring office beyond Peter?s lifetime, if posed in purely historical terms, should probably be answered in the negative. That is, if we ask whether the historical Jesus, in commissioning Peter, expected him to have successors, or whether the author of the Gospel of Matthew, writing after Peter?s death, was aware that Peter and his commission survived in the leaders of the Roman community who succeeded him, the answer in both cases is probably "no."?

If we ask in addition whether the primitive Church was aware, after Peter?s death, that his authority had passed to the next bishop of Rome, or in other words that the head of the community at Rome was now the successor of Peter, the Church?s rock and hence the subject of the promise in Matthew 16:18-19, the question, put in those terms, must certainly be given a negative answer. (Papal Primacy [Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, 1996], pp. 1-2)

He is one of you and denies some of your basic concepts.

Who the hell you were describing above I have no idea.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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Bugimus said:

Focusing on the *early* history is a very good thing I'm pleased we're on this track. : . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

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Agree..!

cell 799

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

i know its unrelated to the current discussion and im sorry, but i was inspired by the topic title to do abit of research into satanism in its pretty interesting, they are apparantly not as 'evil' as they seem

'Ssatanism' covers many things. One of them is the completely ludicrous and silly 'church of satan'.

There are also the more serious kind of satanists...

quote:

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know its unrelated to the current discussion and im sorry, but i was inspired by the topic title to do abit of research into satanism in its pretty interesting, they are apparantly not as 'evil' as they seem

---

picti:


How do you make this assumption? In the Christian belief, anyone who gives glory to evil, is affiliated with evil, is evil. They make a mockery of the Chrisitan God in a subversive way. They call upon the forces of evil, who roam the earth. They decieve their followers into believing they cause no harm.


According to the Christian belief, though there are many ways, forms, structures, and beliefs affiliated with Satan in todays world, there is only one entity of whom they generate from. There is only one devil. And he is the lord and master of evil. He is referred to by many names in scripture. He rules the netherworld with many demons. Per scripture Even Christ called Satan by name and cast him out in his ministry. We make no mistake in believing the evil one has much power. The more evil in this world, the more powerful Satan becomes in the supernatural. For Christians, we have to believe Satan has a sophisticated organized governing structure in how he and his fallen angels operate. His demons are sent to all corners of the world who do his bidding according to their position or rank in his army. We believe Satan is very cunning, more highly intellectual beyond our human minds can imagine and also very powerful. In fact we believe we feed him more power when we perform an evil act. Evil has many faces and penetrates every area of the human life. Even in a Christian church.
We belive, Satan enters and speaks to us even in our dream state to tempts you with lustful desires. Satan has no boundaries. But he does have a time limit. He works feverishly to dominate souls before the Master of Good comes. In its hatred against the Christ, it feels the more souls that can be dominated by evil, that the Power of Good can be overcome. Satan is the " father of decit and lies"
His abyss is full of souls who loved evil and have become one with evil. The abyss's hatred of God grows deeper and deeper because of its eternal judgment in the abyss. They themselves are included in the power of evil. Just as the power of the good souls in the heavenly place helps souls on earth in its prayers for them to do the will of God. So, we do belive the power of good and evil are doing battle on a daily basis in the supernatural. Silly as it sounds, the practices of the "Churchs of Satan" no matter in what degree or form they take are to be taken seriously as powerful forces in supernatural.

*yawn*

Of course, you have physical evidence of all this, right Jade? Just waiting for you to present it.

Any day now.

Funny, I seem to recall reading the devil didn't show up in xian dogma until a couple of hundred years after the alleged death of the figmentive messiah. Even then, they stole the idea from the Babylonians didn't they?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Well.....no not really.

Its a matter of faith in ones beliefs. Physical evidence is irrevelant in faith matters. I don't profess to have seen the devil personally, but have met some of his followers. I guess you could say I know Satan in way by experience too.

Plus, you have a degree of faith. Everyone has.


I think you and I are similar how we have faith without evidence.

Your indian culture is full of rich mystical beliefs and rituals as far as the supernatural goes. Do you believe them too? And if you do, why? Did you believe the indian dances really brought the rain down. Do you believe in animal power of bear or wolf in how their spirit inhibits tribe members.

Since you yourself are not a scientist and haven't performed any scientific test to prove of disprove facts regarding the nature of world, man, evolution, creation, etc, how can you be sure? Should you test their findings yourself, so you can be absolutly sure? It could be a big conspiracy. They could be giving wrong data. Are you basing your faith on man's ability to reason God out of existence instead of your own ability. And if you are, you are putting your complete trust and faith in man's intelligence, which is limited. So you do have faith. Faith in Man. Remember man has limited use of the brain he owns. He is only allowed to use 10 per cent of it. The other 90 percent is a mystery. I, myself would rather put my complete trust and faith in the one I believe is the designer and dweller of our complicated yet mysterious nature.

That is what the discussion is all about dear Jade...fact versus faith.

It is a fact there are no facts for the faithful to rely upon.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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It is a fact there are no facts for the faithful to rely upon.

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Well....likewise. Is it a fact you are going to wake up tomorrow morning or will you die in a wreck on the way home today? You hope, you assume you will live till the end of the week. That is called faith.
Even though you cannot see the end of the week. There are no facts to base on which you can calculate you will live thur to the end of the week. So from the moment or second you are in, what comes after is a mystery until you live it thru. I am sure you have faith in a person(s). You put your trust in persons because you can see them. I gather you cannot put your trust in anything you cannot see, but then you put your faith in the future of every second, hour or day that you live which is a mystery.

quote:

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Even then, they stole the idea from the Babylonians didn't they?

---

This is incorrect. Satan is at the beginning of Scripture in the Old Testament in the Jewish Torah. In the story of Genesis. http://www.saintaquinas.com/original_sin.html

http://www.faithnet.org.uk/KS4/Believing%20in%20God/satan.htm

Third paragraph down.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

I want to dispell the whole 10% of the brain deal. This is completely wrong, and it is a perpetuated myth that for some reason just keeps on enduring. We use all of our brain, we might not understand how all of it is working, but we do make use of all of it.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html
and for your searching pleasure:
http://www.google.com/search?q=10+percent+of+the+brain+myth

The myth really has to die.

Dan @ Code Town

Satan was hardly a creation 200 years after Christ. The page you site, Ehtheist, clearly shows he is mentioned throughout the bible. In fact, he appears at the beginning in Genesis and is mentioned gobs in John's Revelation. The understanding of what and/or who Satan is, deserves study, but to say the concept was invented after the fact just isn't right.

For reference:
Jesus and Lucifer the same person?
Satan...

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Yup, but they stole it from the Babylonians.

Furthermore, so much of the bible has been re-written and 'edited' by xian apologists over the years, only those with blind faith would put any faith in any of it.

In addition, it appears the bible was pretty much not put together until long after the alleged messiah trucked off.

As for the stories and tales of which it is comprised, it seems that while the majority of the yarns were around BCE, xians as an "organized" group weren't using them until 100-200 years after the death of that there mythical lad.

The bible did not spring whole from a bud in the burning bush (another myth).

So Satan was clearly introduced to xianity after the myth of xist arose.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Similarities in the concept of Satan in the OT compared to Babylonian beliefs sounds like a very interesting topic to look into.

Just how much of the bible do you think was 'edited' by apologists? We have approximately 8000 copies and fragments of the NT documents that constitute the type of hard evidence we talk about here so often. What that means is that you cannot simply say that "it was edited over the years" without actually taking a look at what we have that points to source documents *before* the end of the first century.

For certain, there are variances in the texts we do have but you will not find a wholesale rewriting of the gospels as your comments seem to suggest. I am open to examining the differences that we do find there but it simply isn't accurate to dismiss the whole book based on yet another broad brush stroke like that. What worries me about your position is that you come across *wanting* what you say to be true rather than basing what you say on what we actually know.

Yes, the bible was "closed" many years after the life of Christ. But as I say above that does not necessarily mean the documents that were included were simply tailored to fit an arbitrary position. The people who put together the NT were interested in sticking to what the apostles taught and were trying to avoid the exact thing you charge was done, which is perverting the original message. The challenge was to determine what documents were authentically written by the apostles and which were not.

I'm not sure you're understanding what books are which by your 3rd to the last paragraph. The entire OT was written long before Christ came on the scene. There was a period of several hundred years there called the "intertestament period". All of the NT was written after Christ's death (and resurrection ). Satan is mentioned in the OT and in the NT. Another important point is that the apostles who wrote the NT were almost all Jewish and held the OT as sacred and valid scripture. Where is the separation of 100-200 years of xians picking up the idea of Satan?

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that does not necessarily mean the documents that were included were simply tailored to fit an arbitrary position.

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No, they were selected and tailored to fit a very purposeful position =)

You have to remember that there were *many* gospels around, expressing many views, and being interpreted in many ways. While many of the apostles were jews, and espoused the jewish laws and traditions, paul fought practically tooth and nail against that. While I don't view paul in very high regard, most christians appear to hold him in practically the highest...

Odd that his views were so vastyl opposed to Peter's to whom god gave the 'keys to the kingdom' and all...

I believe the entire bible was 'edited' by apologists and hundreds of times.

In the days when pretty-much only priests could read 'n write, there is evidence popes and other religious leaders frequently had sections re-written to reflect whatever current bias they were promoting. Same for various Monarch's who ordered 'bowderlization' to suit their own political or religious needs of beliefs.

In fact, I believe it is still going on today.

This does not even begin to take into account the intentional and unintentional mis-translations through...how many languages?

I don't need to want to have what I say be true, from the reading and documentaries I have doneand seen over the better part of 60 years my conclusions are firmly based in fact and history.

Only the faithful 'want' to have what they believe to be true and that is because at heart, if they are honest witrh themselves, they know there a lot more doubts than certainties.

As for the OT, where do you think it came from? It is a compilation of old shepherds tales told around the dung-fire to pass the night away. Certainly there are some good bits of advice here and there, but mankind came upon those long before it had religion and much longer before xianity raised it's superstition-laden head.

I have read that much of the OT is based on ancient Babylonian writings and mythology as well as other older mythologies (probably where the Babylonians got it). Now, we likely agree the Babylyonian mythology was just that, myths.

Xianity is largely based on those self-same myths.

So you see ,a discussion on who wrote what and when and whether or not and how often it was 'edited' is moot as it is totally irrelevant to reality.

Organized religion is nothing more than institutionalized superstition, with no more substance to it than the fear of black cats or walking under ladders.

Yet millions of people adhere to those and other such silliness as dedicatedly as you hug your xianity to you.

And more power to you.

My objection to religion, as put forth here before, is those adherants who insist in the face of physical evidence that something totally imaginary is real. I don't mind them so deluding themselves, but to try to force those delusions on others is completely untenable.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Eitheist Judaism came from old middle easter pagan beliefs

I would highly recommend for you to read a book called : A History of God

=)

Thanks Ruski if I run across a copy I will. The point is, xianity, Islam and doubtless countless other religions owe their current existance to prior religious myths.

It is really as simple as that no matter how the faithful will rail against the truth.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)