Topic awaiting preservation: The Pseudoscience of Intelligent Design (Page 3 of 6)

Correct. I agree about the schools and education, etc. But I don't agree about the shoving. That does happen. I will admit that some Christians do it too much, but others should be accused in the same respects. If anything, I don't see too many people talking about Jesus at all in public schools. Even between students, in casual conversation. Nada. Debate, maybe, since I have not been in there as of yet.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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[I am just a little disturbed at what view points were chosen to be discussed.

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The issues that covered are those pertaining to science.

The young earth issue is not supoported by any scientific evidence, and so it is not taught in science class. Same goes of 'intelligent design'.

Sicence does not teach that god could not have been involved in the scientific principles taught.
But since god cannot be shown to have been involved, stating that some people hold certain religious beliefs is not relevant to a science class.

PERIOD.

There is no debate to be had here.

Start a new thread on religion in schools, for that discussion if you want to have it. It might be important.

As for this scientific issue, about young earth and ID, I think it has run its course. It is time to move onto other things that are going to be more worthwhile, and offer up better oportunities for us to learn from one anther. Thanks everyone for all your contributions. It has been fun.

Dan @ Code Town

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Start a new thread on religion in schools, for that discussion if you want to have it

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eh........that's what this discussion has been about since the start - the article you linked to was in direct relation to the teaching of religious dogma in science class...and the conversation has revolved around that ever since...

I was refering more to Gids remarks about peer discussion of religion in schools.

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If anything, I don't see too many people talking about Jesus at all in public schools. Even between students, in casual conversation. Nada.

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This quote is far outside of our discussion, as it has to deal with the social interaction of peers in school, and not about the mandated teachings in a science class. These two issues, are very distinct. As conversation about Jesus is and should be allowed between students in their casual conversations. It might be interesting to see others takes on what occurs in schools. But again, is well outside the scope of the ID debate, and Religion in Science, and only acts to muddy this current debate.

Dan @ Code Town

gotcha.

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Hey WS, you say that there is no evidence for a young Earth, none at all, correct? Has science ever been wrong because it had too little information? I am just saying that there is a possibility of it out there.

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Ok.

So what?

Since when has Religion the high ground, O all knowing one?

Shall we devote the rest of this thread to Religious accuracy vs Scientific Fact?

We are not debating whether or not Science has been wrong before.

You still do not get it, after ALL THE FUCKING FACTS THAT HAVE BEEN AI MED AT YOU!

We are debating, that with the evidence given, and the facts as we know it, the most reasonable answer is...

TADA! The Earth is old.

Ok, Gid...I've been saving this one. I've got your hammer, right here in my head. I've saved it for a long time. It's the one I've used to drive Jehovah's Witness's screaming from my house, cursing my name, and calling me the spawn of Satan.

Gid - explain to me, How it is possible, for Antartica to have such a thick sheet of ice, and yet, it has fossils under that that prove that its climate was once tropical. And that, within 20,000 years. Of course, this is the debate about continental drift, which you must also, as a YEC, deny. You ask why? Well, obviously, the Ice there must have existed before the great Flood - Antartica is at the center of the South Pole. So there is no way that animals could have gotten under the Ice sheet. And obviously, drillings have proven that there are more than 60,000 years of layers there in the Ice sheet itself.

Good luck.

Dumb ass.



I really enjoy doing that, btw.

WebShaman: Simple. God with all his über powers put some fossils in Antartica and made the world in a way to make it look really old to our eyes of dumb homo sapiens sapiens.

Poi, that is cheating. We all KNOW god wouldn't cheat.

Introducing miracles into the equation really forfeits everything. Then anything is possible.

Yes Web, and you continue to miss that point.

Anything is possible! Anything, as long as it doesn't disagree with their religious teachings!

That is why it is almost mute to have any kind of argument about science with the fervently religious. They are not logical, they do not follow any basic tenants of this reality, they follow only what is taught to them by their religious leaders, and the media specifically ordained by them.

Dan @ Code Town

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Yes Web, and you continue to miss that point.

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WM, do you really take me for that ignorant?

Sorry to hear that.

I think that the miracle angle has been debated before, and dismissed as inconsequent. That is what I am referring to, when it comes to the mention of "miracles".

If one includes miracles into the equation, then anything is possible, including that the moon is really made out of green cheese. Now, I don't particularly care what the believers think about miracles, etc. I'm pointing this out from a point of logic, and from a basis to discuss from.

If you are going to ask a question, at least wait for the answer.

I do not think you ignorant at all. I might think you a bit impulsive, maybe to have a little too much faith in certain types of people to be capable of logic and reason.

As for the rest, I can not even comment anymore. These past weeks have been stifling. The horror that is being visited upon this nation by the fundamental zealots who allow themselves to be lead by the corrupt are killing me. I feel like a shaken bottle, the carbonation having no place to exit.

How can we allow this to happen? How can so many be so completely unaware of it? How can so many embrace it?

It just does not make any sense to me.

Dan @ Code Town

The major problem even mentioning 'creationism' in a Science class, I don't think, the creationists even dare consider.

I'll boil this down as best I can...but don't hold your breath. =)

Generically speaking...the objective of a PUBLIC School system is to produce a National, State and Local 'population' that meets certain standards of 'literacy' in Reading, Writing, Math and so on.

In a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM people 'elected' to a school board, in School District "X", execute a curriculum that supposedly and hopefully results in a populace meeting those levels of 'competency.'

If 'Christian Fundamentalists' enjoy a STATE majority and order that in Science Classes their version of creationism be taught in detail or merely mentioned, in PUBLIC SCHOOLS, they make the perilous assumption they will 'always' enjoy that majority.

In the US, If I'm not mistaken, Hispanics are the fastest growing goup. Again, if I'm not mistaken, Catholism is their religion of choice. Forget the Catholics for a minute. Say Jehova Witnesses...followers of Islam or Budhists or Satanists enjoy a majority.

You now have a situation where any of those groups can change the curriculum, for Science in this case, to reflect their version of creationism.

You don't need a crystal ball nor be an oracle, to see that in some communities this is a very real scenario.

And to you Gideon, and other 'Christian Fundamentalists' this is why ALL FLAVOURS OF RELIGION MUST BE KEPT OUT OF ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT.

Christian Fundamentalists would set their hair afire if, in a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, it was even 'suggested' to their children there "MIGHT BE" another explanation for creationism.

In some areas there are Catholic Schools. There are Christian based Universities. There are all sorts of 'Faith-based Institutions.' Those are PRIVATE places of learning and you enjoy the Right and Priviledge to have your children attend those PRIVATE 'faith-based' institutions. It is in those settings where your, '...might be another possibility' can be taught unimpeded and clearly without, objection. Whether I agree with it or not.

Schoolboards are Government. ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT ARE PUBLIC INSITUTIONS. As such, ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT MUST IN NATURE AND BY DEFINTION BE ""SECULAR.""

If you and other Christian Fundamentalists do not want your children, in a PUBLIC SCHOOL SETTING.. hearing anything 'other', than your version of how this great big spinning ball of dirt and water came to be, you should be,.... it is in your best interests to do, everything possible to ensure YOUR version does not become part of the PUBLIC CURRICULUM.

Well...., Get ready for this one. I heard this past week they are going to include the study of the bible as a part of curiculum in schools. Has anyone else heard this? I don't know what state they were referring to. I really don't believe this is necessary. Children should be taught this at home or church school. Or as private study.

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Children should be taught this at home or church school. Or as private study.

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Holy Moly Jade... something we agree on. I have to sit down... you've made my knees weak. =)

As for 'which' State, I can't remember, and it really doesn't matter.

What really matters is 'those' who would have their particular brand/flavour of religion taught in a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM do not seem ACCEPT the fact they are opening the door for a devil other than their own.

I say ACCEPT because I 'personally' do not UNDERSTAND how anyone
can beleive in any 'flavour.' I MUST however ACCEPT that you DO, because you have told me so. (not isolating you out here...speaking generically)

As I said in another thread.. 'Stupid is a Natural State - Ignorance is Self-Induced. I can only assume those wanting 'their flavor' in a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM are "STUPID" because they choose to IGNORE the ramifications of their desire.

To paraphrase somebody '...The best way to show a fool the error of his ways is to let him have his way.'

Nice paraphrase, I like it.

I don't know if I have posted this anywhere before, but I am all for separation of church and state. I believe that religion belongs in the home and church, while teaching belongs in the school.

That being said, public schools are public. I like facts, I like truth. I HATE it when people hide facts from me, or falsify their data. Whenever someone gives me falsified data, I feel betrayed. I also feel betrayed when someone does not give me the whole story. "Suzie went to..." raises a bunch of questions. Telling me about natural selection, but then passing over irreducable complexity is not giving the whole story.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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Telling me about natural selection, but then passing over irreducable complexity is not giving the whole story.

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What is not Science, does not belong in a Science class.

It is that simple.

We have patiently explained that, again, and again, and again...

I haven't been following this thread that closely as of late, so if this has been posted already, I apologize. I took a quick look through and didn't see it, though, so here you go:

Why intelligent design isn't

It's a New Yorker article that covers and refutes the main arguments of intelligent design. I was not too familiar with the specifics of intelligent design, so I found it an interesting read.

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

Great artical. Covers a whole lot of ground.

Dan @ Code Town

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Whenever someone gives me falsified data, I feel betrayed. I also feel betrayed when someone does not give me the whole story.

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One day, hopefully not too far in the future, you are going to feel very betrayed by the pseudo-scientists you have been so faithfully following lately.

Very betrayed...

Excellent article. Thanks.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Great article, going to have me some thinkin'. Thanks.

So, DL, you want me to feel betrayed?

BTW, I do not follow pseudo-scientists. I follow truth. If truth and fact contradict Creation scientists, then their science is not truth. If truth and fact contradict ID, then that is not truth. If truth and fact contradict Evolution, then that is not truth. However, I seriously doubt the debate is over between Evolution, Creation, and ID.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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BTW, I do not follow pseudo-scientists. I follow truth. If truth and fact contradict Creation scientists, then their science is not truth. If truth and fact contradict ID, then that is not truth. If truth and fact contradict Evolution, then that is not truth. However, I seriously doubt the debate is over between Evolution, Creation, and ID.

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The "debate", as you see it, never even began for Scientists.

It is a moot point.

If you truly follow truth, as you say, then you would know and acknowledge this.

*shrugs*

Thanks for the link, Master Suho.

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-27-2005 16:39)

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Gideon said:

Great article, going to have me some thinkin'. Thanks.

So, DL, you want me to feel betrayed?

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No.

But given your earlier statement it is inevitable, since all these sources you quote so often in support of your pseudo-scientific views are doing exactly what you said: misrepresenting the facts and giving partial stories.

I understand that you do not accept this truth. Hopefully you will, and hopefully it won't be too far in the future.

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BTW, I do not follow pseudo-scientists. I follow truth. If truth and fact contradict Creation scientists, then their science is not truth. If truth and fact contradict ID, then that is not truth. If truth and fact contradict Evolution, then that is not truth. However, I seriously doubt the debate is over between Evolution, Creation, and ID.

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You have posted reams and reams of writing by what are *at best* pseudo-scientists, and at worse complete frauds. Your "truth" as presented by such people is simply not truth, it is fiction.

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You have posted reams and reams of writing by what are *at best* pseudo-scientists, and at worse complete frauds. Your "truth" as presented by such people is simply not truth, it is fiction.

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Sadly, DL, Gid does not realize this. He is much to young, and has no basis of experience from which to draw from.

But I suspect that you realize this, as well

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WebShaman said:

The "debate", as you see it, never even began for Scientists.

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Well, what do you call all the ranting about YEID, OEID, and OEE then?

Let me ask you both a question, who would you consider a scientist?

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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Well, what do you call all the ranting about YEID, OEID, and OEE then?

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You'll have to be more specific...

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Well, what do you call all the ranting about YEID, OEID, and OEE then?

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Ranting, obviously. Young Earth ID, Old Earth ID has NOTHING to do with Science (we have patiently explained this to you many times before - again, you always come full circle back to these points - I call you what you are, Gid - you are a Troll. No-one is ignorant enough to have "forgotten" what we have posted before so many times - we have been back to this point ad infinitum with you. Always must we point out the same thing, again and again.)

Old Earth Evolution does have a solid basis in Science, obviously, as we have pointed out again, and again, and again, and again...

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Let me ask you both a question, who would you consider a scientist?

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It has already been defined for you, many times, in previous threads. Again, I name you for what you are - Troll.

Are you really so forgetful, or is it that you just cannot accept what we post to you?

Gid, either -

A) Quit posting the same old circular "reasons", and remember what was posted before in answer to your "points".

Or stop posting, period.

It is getting very tiresome, having to point out again, and again, and again, and again....the SAME FUCKING INFORMATION TO YOU!

It has gotten to the point, that I can only label you as a Troll, because I cannot picture anyone being as dense as not to have realized that.

Troll.

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-29-2005 12:55)

Moved and seconded...all in favour?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Aye.

I agree WS. Looking back at some of my posts, what I wrote. I apologize. I have excuses (God knows I have excuses), but there are no excuses. I have been a troll, and I realize it. I don't think you are the first to tell me this, although it was more discreet in the past. Just goes to show you how many kicks in the butt this giant oaf needs to get going. Even God has been giving me kicks in the butt, trying to tell me how much of a jerk I have been.

For the past few months, I have fought, argued, threw punches, and recieved them, all in a vain attempt to try and make people think the way I think. I believe now I have come to the breaking point. Just to show you how slow a learner I am, it took me that long to realize that I can't change people. I can argue, spit, fight, growl, hurl insults and names all I want, but I can't make people change. Only people can make themselves change, and a lot of times, my way is not the best way and it is me who needs to change.

WS, DL, and even E-man (D-man now), I think that I have learned the most from you these past few months. All the while I have been trying to make you see my point of view, even without considering yours. I have used rhetoric, underhanded questions, and just plain dirty tactics to try and make you all think the same way I think.

You know what guys? I was wrong. You know what, through all this I found out that it isn't you guys who need to change (even though I think change, even a little, is always good), but it was me. I needed the overhaul, and it was you guys who stayed on my case.

Thank you. Thank you for not giving up on me. Thank you for not sugar coating anything, and telling me like it is.

For all intents and purposes, Ruski was right. You all should just ignore me, for all the trouble I have caused. But, if you can find it in yourselves to forgive me and put up with me, I will try my hardest to not force my beliefs anymore. I understand that you all are not here to get things shoved down your throat. You are here for intellectual purposes. I will do my best from now on to respect that, and keep my thought shoving to myself, whether or not you decide to speak to me anymore.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

I am pretty much convinced we have seen this sort of mea-culpa from gid before, yet always he returns to the same narrow path.

Beware of xians bearing apologies.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

And now you are making a victim out of yourself....right and wrong, such a narrow view on life you have Gid. This is the biggest cause of your circular reasoning .

I was simply trying to stop this mindless cycle of blabble and for you to shut up, reread and think. But, with the philosohphy you have chosen to uphold and base your life on (which is that of Paul), so little can be exspected from such closed minded fanaticism...surely I was loosing hope for you to ever understand anyone here with more sophisicated and complex interpretation of life where there are no absolutes...

Although I do respect someone who can admit that they are wrong, my alarm bells go off when someone is doing it on a regular basis.

Especially when it comes because of the same situation, again and again!

That shows that the person in question really hasn't learned, and is using an apology as the "easy way out", instead of learning.

Gid, you have apologized so often before over exactly this type of behavior, that I find it impossible to attach any seriousness to it.

The boy who cried wolf.

See, you are still very wrong. You can change people. You can help people, and you can make people better (towards whatever you think better is). But you can not immediately force this. Change is a process.

Coming to fisticuffs over an ideal based on peace, turning the other cheek and love? Sound like you are really fucking up. If you can not seem to follow your own path, how could you ever expect to lead others down the same one?

You might want to look into meditation, I think you might call it deep prayer or something. Meditation is an opposite of prayer, instead of talking you are listening, and it sounds like you need to do a bit of this. From what you have written and continue to write it sounds like you are not living in congruence with yourself. You have many personal juxtapositions which need to be righted, and you need to spend some personal time with these.

You are bound to fail with others when you are not right with yourself.

Dan @ Code Town

Gid: Got that 'can't win' feeling?' Don't sweat it. I'm sure however, you understand the skepticism. Even those who seem to win all or most of the time.. don't.

I'm off in a bit of a different direction here but you first have to
accept that your religous beliefs don't matter to me one bit.

If however you are going to 'study', study as many different religions
as possible including 'athiesm' which, when organized under an
umbrella group is, imo, just another religion. Dogma is dogma.

So.. the different direction.

Of the many mental notes I've made of you through various posts I see
someone who is clearly searching for answers to many many things.

Why do I do 'this?' Why do I even 'want' to do this? Why do I have these
feelings these urges?

Someone who is clearly frustrated and on 'some' matters...clearly and very confused.

Perhaps the most telling tho' is, your age. (Somewhere between 16 & 18 yes/no?)

Well Gid a whole lot of that frustration and confusion will continue for a few more years. Probably till your mid 20's.

It's all about 'Brain Maturation.'

There 'was' a time when the 'thinking' was the brain at 18 Months or so, started a steady
decline.'

Today the thinking is - " The brain's center of reasoning and problem-solving is among the last to mature,..." some time in our 20's.

In my late 20's and early 30's I often said '.... I didn't know who the hell I was until I was 24.' I'm now in my late 50's.

Ages 12 thru my early 20's were for me not just, confusing and frustrating. I was, most of the time, hell-bent on destruction. Myself, others, things.

I was the kid many mothers told their kids...'I don't want you hanging around with him he's a bad influence on you and don't you ever bring him home!'

Other times however I was quite the opposite. And it was during these 'other' times I was perhaps most confused and frustrated.

Suicide was big on my mind. Had a barrel in my mouth at one point. I was 14 or so. Why didn't I pull the trigger? Who knows and it doesn't matter. What does matter however was the 'thinking & understanding' of the day. There wasn't much of either when it came to the juvenile brain.

About the only 'word' heard was 'puberty' and about the only phrase heard was... 'Don't worry about it... he'll out grow it.'

Years later the word 'Hormones' surfaced. Just what 'those' were and what they did was not clear and even less clear yet was, what all these chemical reactions were doing to the juvenile brain. The problem solving and reasoning part of the brain were not even on the radar.

Fortunately 'today' this is not the case. And fortunately again, because of this Internet thing, =) a whole lot of information is right at our finger tips.

Follow this big ugly link or throw 'Brain Maturation' into google. Study some of those for a while... Some findings are very controversial. Others are accepted.

I think, and sincererly do hope, that after you read up at least a bit, on what your brain is now going thru, on this journey of maturation, you will have something of a better understanding of where some, but clearly not all your frustrations..confusion...searching etc.. 'stem' =) from. But just as clearly a lot of it is going on in your brain and will continue to go on for several more years yet.

The way I figure it... the more you know about what's going on up there the better you'll be able to deal it. Just wish this info had been accessible back when. =)

You also have to accept that many of the 'brains' you deal with here..are indeed 'mature' others may indeed be over-ripened and others yet perhaps even pickled. =) As 'individuals' however, none of us, hopefully, will get toooo mature.

Don't want 'the smell of old people setting in' now do we.


http://www.google.ca/search?q=Brain+maturation

-USfficial

(Edited by WarMage on 06-02-2005 01:04)

I understand that you are wary, guys. If I were in your position, I would be very wary as well. If that is truly how you see me, and what you feel, then so be it.

WS, you are right. I have before apologized for various things, yet to only return to them a few weeks later. In all intents and purposes, you really don't need to listen to me, and you don't have to accept my apology. It's up to you. If you want to give me one more chance, it's your choice.

WM, that is my philosophy. Could be wrong. Can change. But that is how it stands as of this moment. It makes sense to me, so that is why I believe it. I realize that people can be influenced, but I believe that only people can truly change themselves.
BTW, I did try meditation. It really didn't take too long for me to figure out what was wrong either. Nor did it take too long to find a solution. That makes me a little wary, because I see people meditate for hours and only attain a little scrap of info. Am I that easy to figure out? Maybe.

Thanks NoJive, and yup you are correct in all of your assumptions: age, maturity rate, confusion, even touched on the suicide thing. You must either be really good at reading people, or I am just that transparent. Either way is cool.

Yeah, I'll look into that brain maturation. I have been taught a little about it in school, but I never really gave it too much thought.

I'm glad for the frankness too, about religion & personal beliefs. I will look into the other religions and beliefs. I have tried before, but I have an issue with time and reading. They don't really match up too well. I will see if I can get started on it soon, though.

I'm not really worried about other religions as of this moment, I'm more interested in figuring out the depth and nooks of my own, but I may have been going about it wrong. I have a pretty good (although somewhat shaky) base in Christianity by now, maybe I can figure out how it is similar and different from other religions. I just don't like rushing into things without all the info, is all. I don't want you to think I'm not interested in learning as much as I can about what and how others believe. It's fascinating to me.

Well, this is starting to turn into a ramble, so I think I will just say thanks to all you guys, and say that this time, I will do my best to be respectful.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

It's not a matter of being "wary", as you have demonstrated that you possess little to be wary of, quite frankly.

It's a simple matter of "same old shit".

You constantly switch between half-ass pamphlet-fed attempts at baiting and apologetic gibberish.

It is actually pretty laughable that you call what you do as trying to shove your views down anyone's throat, since your views have been so completely incoherent throughout. You can't shove something down someone's throat when you can't even present an argument that can stand...

the problem that you seem to have has less to do with the specifics of what you beleive than it does with the fact that you consistently go off 'half-cocked'. You hear an idea presented by some kook and you're ready to prove to the world that it's true, without even understanding it.

The only actual advice: *learn* what you are talking about before you decide to try convincing the world...

Thanks DL, I'll remember that.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

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Ruski said:

I was loosing hope for you to ever understand anyone here with more sophisicated
and complex interpretation of life where there are no absolutes

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There are absolutely no absolutes, right?

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

Perhaps this thread and several others, should be more accurately titled "The Pseudo-Intelligence of Gid's design"?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)