Topic awaiting preservation: Katrina; Lack of preparation?

All things considered what started this domino effect was a "Third base!" disaster.

The local city, and state officials failed in their duty.

And of the thousands that have died I have sympathy, and I have given my capable share to help them.

Now for those who chose to stay, I would need to know what made them make that decision.

And again if it was based on what their local officals told them, then "Third base!".

" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "

Zynx, I want you to do me a favor. You see this part

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The local city, and state officials failed in their duty.

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?

Now, I want you to research this, pull some facts together, and post them so that it supports your...point.

You are lumping a lot of people and organizations together. Did ALL the local city and state officials fail at their duty, or were there specific individuals and organizations who did?

Is it just limited to City and State officials, or does it go higher?

Are there other events, occurances, situations that figure into this equation?

Now shoo...off you go!

Come back and post when you have something to post.

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Now, I want you to research this,

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So WS let's start here, and perhaps you yourself could do the same research, Mmm-kay. Of course I don't know how you will respond. Maybe you think our government should be the first to arrive and help the citizens of the US during natural disasters. Of course you would be wrong if you did.

" In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved. A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored. "

" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "

Zynx - I recognize the article that you quoted above, but I know many would appreciate knowing where you pulled the quote from and who wrote it. It's only proper to give the author their due. In case you don't have that information I've taken the liberty of posting a link to the article I believe you are quoting from. Blame Amid the Tragedy

There is enough blame to be spread around for this disaster from all levels. However as has been stated elsewhere, the primary focus right now has to be getting the remainder of the people out. Once that has been completed, we can then more firmly focus on who is to blame for which levels of failure.

Zynx, first of all

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So WS let's start here, and perhaps you yourself could do the same research, Mmm-kay.

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I don't need to do any research on it, because I already have, and I am continuing to do so!

Obviously, you are looking into it a little bit. As MD has posted (nice post, MD) - please post your sources with a link, when possible, in the future. But you are making blanket statements - and that got you into trouble fast last time.

Think about it.

Zynx: You remind me of me, the old me. You'll learn, in time.

Your research consists of a Wall Street Journal editorial by Bob Williams. Mr. Williams is president of a "conservative think tank" known as the Evergreen Freedom Foundation. They recieve funding from many conservtives and their actions and goals of the past are questionable. I've given you a couple of links and it is up to you to follow the trail if you can.

Surely the local governments hold some responsibility, but let's not get caught up in this "one or the other" bullshit, and let's not depend on op/eds for the primary source of "facts". It is best to stay away from such biased sources or you will be led down the garden path to propagandaville. I know because I have followed that same path.

Not to say there isn't some truth in what he says, but the embellishment and purpose of his piece is so transparent you can see Rove's fingerprints all over it. You may as well be quoting Ann Coulter of Shawn Hannity, two other obvious Republican shills.

In any case, have you ever heard of the expressions "the buck stops here". Keep going, put your biases aside, and look for truth.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Nice post, Ram.

Are you beginning to see why DL, me, and others reacted as we did to your posts now, when you look on the posts from Zynx?

I remember that relevation, as my time came. Of course, the razors were sharper back then...and the prose was magnificent. Peter could tear you to ribbons, and get you laughing about it at the same time. He sure had a way with words.

Damn I miss Peter and TwiTch^ on these boards...

And Michael, where the hell did he disappear to?

Sorry, I now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.

Thanks to all for the C.C. Yes WS, I see that. I said that towards you, becasue I felt that you thought I did not research any of it. It's a process of research. No I might not have reached enough searching to make a final decision, becasue I wanted to see what others say. So I said that like an "as if" idea. Yes still learning WS. I was thinking you were still mad at me for e-mailing you what I said. I see your point now.

Ram, I'm trying to post in a way to get others to say what they think or feel, but many times it's as if I'm at a harvard / Yale debate, and I just want to discuss and talk about things, and not simply have an opinion, and that is that. Still learning.

Yes Moon, I know people like links, but I'm sure it wasn't that hard to find that quote I posted. Adnd sometimes I find it silly to quote a link about somewthing anyone of us, with half a brain about the internet could find the same link. But I'm learning, so I will keep the links in, when I am discussing such things. Good point Moon.

Ram, also you say that the person, Mr. Bob Williams is skewed a bit towards the Republican side, but where not the things he said, true? IN that New Orleans did react the same pis-poor way last time Ivan came through? As well as their lack to fix the problems, that they themselves discovered, last time they had a drill.

I am not saying that FEMA did not do their job perfectly, but I do know that the state has to ask FEMA for help, and any emergency in my city starts with my city's mayor, and then reaches the governor, both of which I think FIRST dropped the ball.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

Not all of the blame goes to them. Here's a link about how FEMA tripped up.

" The same day Brown wrote his memo to Chertoff, he also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it was vital to coordinate fire and rescue efforts. Several congressmen have already called for Brown's resignation. "

Which I believe Bush removed brown already, no?

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/53110.htm

" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "

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WS: Are you beginning to see why DL, me, and others reacted as we did to your posts now, when you look on the posts from Zynx?

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Beginning to understand, no. A while back I went through some of the old Iraq-type debates and I know exactly why. This one is actually pretty funny -- one of the many time I said I wasn't coming back.

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Zynx: Ram, I'm trying to post in a way to get others to say what they think or feel, but many times it's as if I'm at a Harvard / Yale debate, and I just want to discuss and talk about things, and not simply have an opinion, and that is that. Still learning.

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People who post in this forum are generally decently-educated, in both current events and history, and will usually go with thoughts and facts, not feelings. You may see this as a Harvard type debate, but it isn't. Just a more informed crowd who is into serious learning. You need to peel back a few more layers of the onion, so to speak, and you'll begin to understand.

Stay away from feelings, they lead you astray, use your mind. Learn to spot rhetoric, turn your mind into a filter of sorts, take the remaining information, spin removed, and go further with it. Research it. If it checks out, then you know you have something concrete. You should never just take something you read, especially an op/ed -- which in most cases only seeks to defend this or that agenda, not to educate -- as being the full story.

Something else which may be helpful: when putting forth a proposition, don't present it as if it is the be all end all of the conversation. Rather than say "The local city, and state officials failed in their duty." say something like:

"From what I have read the local governments are to blame because of such and such. Provide link to source) What do you think?"

That is a better way to start the conversation and I would be willing to bet you'd get a much better reception. If you come in acting like a know-it-all, which is easy to do, even unintentionally, on the Internet, you are going to get nailed, especially with an educated (excluding me ) crowd such as this.

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Ram, also you say that the person, Mr. Bob Williams is skewed a bit towards the Republican side, but where not the things he said, true? IN that New Orleans did react the same pis-poor way last time Ivan came through? As well as their lack to fix the problems, that they themselves discovered, last time they had a drill.

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With regards to sides. IMO, the only sides that exist are us, as in the general population, and them, as in those in control. All other sides are fabrications that they have created. Any arguments out to defend those fabrications are suspect because they show clear motive and agenda by those in control. Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, all meaningless. Set them aside and look at information based on credibility and how it effects us, the general population.

Anyways, I am not saying what he is saying isn't true, to an extent, but the spin, which you have to watch for, is apparent. There is a lot we do not know yet about this whole fiasco, and he presents this information as a forgone conclusion. Considering his connections, think about his possible motives for doing so.

Hurricane Georges in 1998 was a bit of a wake-up call indeed, and it can be said, although not proven, that the local government didn't do well in preparing for future occurances. We do now there was a lot of corruption down there, but that is true with almost any government. The issue, unfortunately, is not black and white. A lot of questions need to be answered before we can be sure of "who, what, when, where, how, and why".

For example, did they receive the federal funding and resources necessary to take the proper precautions? It doesn't appear so at this point. We do know that Bush has cut a lot of domestic budgets, kind of setting them on a back burner, in order to fight the "War on Terror", so that is a likelihood, and I am sure it will come to light eventually. We simply do not know enough.

One can say beyond a doubt that funding for the levees was cut drastically in recent years, regardless of many petitions from local officials for more help (interesting fact: in 2002, Mike Parker, the former head of the Army Corps of Engineers, was forced to resign over budget disagreements with the White House.)

FEMA itself declared in 2001 that a major hurricane hitting New Orleans could be one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country". Knowing this, who dropped the ball and why was the problem ignored? Why was the budget cut? How many of these budget cuts went elsewhere, say to Iraq?

Remember, local and state governments are still largely limited as compared to the Fed (compare you local and state taxes to the IRS), and they depend a lot on the them to provide the resources necessary to do their jobs and keep their populations safe. If they are shorted, they are helpless.

More than likely there is plenty of blame to go around, from the top (Bush) all the way down to the bottom (Nagin). This is where you have to be careful, because once an issue gets sucked into partisan politics and each side blames the other there are now political agendas behind everything.

For instance, in this case many Republicans are out against the locals. Motive: to take eyes of the president and the extremely sluggish response of FEMA (which BTW in March of 2003 was downgraded from a cabinet level position and folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Its mission becoming more focused on fighting acts of terrorism and less on "acts of God".

The Democrats, OTOH, are all over the feds. Motive: Hurt Bush, "2006 is looking good", and in some cases genuine outrage.

Truth be told, most of the time, you will find the blame lies on both sides and by blaming each other they can detract from their own sins and/or promote their agendas.

In defense of this particular claim against Mayor Nagin, he had, in fact, stated the Superdome was a "refuge of last resort," no food, water, or supplies would be provided. Residents who evacuated to the Superdome were warned to bring their own supplies. He said this likely because he lacked resources, although I have yet to hear a concise explanation. Also, having had declared a state of emergency on Saturday the 27th, a full two days before the storm, he probably did not expect that the cavalry would not be in town to start evacuations until Thursday or Friday.

Then again, there are plenty of things where Nagin could possibly be blamed, such as why the NO school buses were not utilized.

As you can see, this thing goes a lot deeper than anything an op/ed will go into. This is not to say that all op/eds are trash, although many are, it just says that they will not always go into the entire depth they should for length reasons, and also, as stated above, depth may not necessarily be their intentions in the first place if they are looking to offer a narrow views that supports one agenda over another.

I hope this makes sense, no time to reread, already spent far too long here... have to run.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Well said Ram.

I remember those early posts of yours but the one that sticks out is/was the; 'I've changed.' As I recall there was a birage of... 'I won't hold my breath... I'll believe it when I see it', sort of thing. Well a change there has been and a good one it is too. Welcome to the world..... of frustration. =)

Nice post, Ram.

I can tell you why the local government was lacking resources.

In times of emergency, every state has a National Guard, that they can mobilize. The National Guard units have heavy equiptment, manpower, various plans for various contingencies depending on location and demand.

Now, something to think about - where are most of our National Guard, and their equiptment now?

Something else to think about - in a heavily flooded area, that is enormous (like New Orleans and surrounds) - what type of equiptment is needed, to move supplies, troops, rescue stranded people, and to operate?

Well, one needs air support - helicopters and cargo lifters. Where are all our helicopters and cargo lifters?
Amphibious craft - like hovercraft and ships, small boats. Where are they?

There are other organizations who also have such equipment, but they are not normally in the chain of command of such local governments - they are normally Federal organizations (like the Coast Guard, for example, or the normal Military, the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management).

A few things to think about - if you are going to talk about "pointing the finger", you first need to understand how the things fell apart, and why. I am hoping, beyond hope, really, that in the days to come more information becomes available along these lines, for it is imperative that we know this, before we can put together the rest of the puzzle.

NoJive, I can understand (and share) your fustration, but that alone does not help matters, at least not yet. Let us concentrate on the people that really need our attention first - those that still need aid, clean water, food, shelter, medical attention.

And when that has been taken care of...

Then let us ALL turn our attention to those who are guilty. "All you sittin' in high places
The pieces gonna fall on you " - to quote The Hooters.

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-10-2005 13:24)

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Beginning to understand, no.

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Funny. And yet this is very very very enlightening about others here on this site. Thanks.

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you may see this as a Harvard type debate, but it isn't. Just a more informed crowd who is into serious learning.

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I see that this site does contains many intelligent posters. Although I see that intelligence as psychosymatic.

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Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, all meaningless. Set them aside and look at information
based on credibility and how it effects us, the general population.

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Meaningless? Not here on this site. Too many posters lump others into groups, such as a Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, without fully asking where they stand. Like I have said, just becasue I was anti-Bush, does not mean I am PRO-Kerry. It's just hard to expect to effect the general population, when sites like this put you in a certain group, irregardless of it being true or not.

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Hurricane Georges in 1998 was a bit of a wake-up call indeed, and it can be said, although not proven, that the local government didn't do well in preparing for future occurances.

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Not proven? Clearly what we have all seen is that the local powers, factual did nothing different then, than they did during Katrina. At the very least they changed nothing in their response from 1998 to 2005.

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For example, did they receive the federal funding and resources necessary to take the proper precautions? It doesn't appear so at this point.

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For the sake of argument, just say that they did not receive those funding resources. And in doing so, the locals did nothing to offset that loss, let alone create a NEW plan, IN CASE of such an event.

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One can say beyond a doubt that funding for the levees was cut drastically in recent years, regardless of many petitions from local officials for more help (interesting fact: in 2002, Mike Parker, the former head of the Army Corps of Engineers, was forced to resign over budget disagreements with the White House.) FEMA itself declared in 2001 that a major hurricane hitting New Orleans could be one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country". Knowing this, who dropped the ball and why was the problem ignored? Why was the budget cut? How many of these budget cuts went elsewhere, say
to Iraq?

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I think your over analyzing these events you have mentioned. As I myself, a home owner, has been told that my income will decrease over the next few years, and my bills will become higher. Commone sense tells me to plan for this inevitable event. The local N.O. officals did not comply with this simple requirement. The problem STARTED with them.

And sadly I have seen BUSH admit that FEMA, and our governments response was slow.

So where are the local officals guilt? I don't see them admitting guilt, as much as they are standing behind the crowd of the porr, and screaming, "Bad Bush, Bad Bush!"

Just my opinion(s).

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" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "