Topic awaiting preservation: Churchless? Need a Church? (Page 3 of 3)

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Zynx said:

Shamans, or the elders in a society, were not bastards, or what have you,
They were most respected. As for being a genius, I doubt that. They had wisdom
passed down from group to group. Maybe your not going as far back into time as I
am describing?

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Actually. I'm going much further back in time. But even unto the shaman and druids there isn't what I would call a religion. Ideology, theology... Yes... religion... No.

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Zynx said:

That would be "organized religion" right? I have seen first hand small
town church produce amazing people who are not into the "business" of religion
as you describe. I myself am disgusted with "religion" as a rule, but many times
I have personally seen myself proven wrong. It's not a black and white
issue.

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Quite correct and yet, not. Were those people products of the religion or themselves? Was religion a required component for them to be 'amazing' people? My viewpoint is no. It is the Ideology behind the religion that gives people the drive, the incentive. Most 'religious' people I know aren't religious at all. They either follow what they want to follow and don't do what the religion says to do, but call themselves <pick a religion>. Or claim to follow what the religion says to follow explicitly but stop when it's inconvenient. Neither of those people are following a religion. They are following an Ideal. One is more despicable then the other from my POV but that's just me. But... I will concede... I do intend to mean organized religion... Just understand that, while smaller than those religions we talk about here most often... they still have the same goal they just aren't as successful at it.

GD

The earlist religious concepts of beliefs, came from those who had wisdom to heal, wisdom of the seasons, and the wisdom of travel during those times, not to mention the wisdom to create early tools!

A persons ability to do these things, within an early human tribe, becames the basis for a groups beliefs. And those beliefs gave rise to,..................................................................."religion".

What time frame R U suggesting?

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

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GrythusDraconis said:I'm going much further back in time.

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ZynxWhat time frame R U suggesting?

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Come, "Sitting Bull", give us a, "Nudge Nudge".

(Edited by Zynx on 11-09-2005 01:51)

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Zynx said:

Come, "Sitting Bull", give us a, "Nudge Nudge".

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Dude... it was only a day and a half at best. Talking about things that 'gave rise to religions' and equating them to religions is circular logic and defeats itself. I'm talking about those things that were prior to the actual organizations of religions that we know today. Those things that 'gave rise to religion' but were just ideas. I'm certain that I could convince people that may way was the right way and that everyone should follow me to be 'good people'. I would be developing a religion around MY personal belief... that doesn't make my belief a religion. Belief in deity or spirits or anything else doesn't equate a religious belief. Lots of people believing those things still won't equate a religious following until there is a leader/follower relationship. Religion begins with some 'salesman' selling an idea to people with extended warranties and service agreements attached. The warranties and service agreements have nothing to do with the Idea that was sold but serves to hold the followers to the religion and the religious leader. Until that 'salesman' exists and succeeds... everything is just thoughts and ideas.

As I stated earlier... I am focusing on religions as they are today(what else is there to focus on?).

I think where the disconnect is between us is that I think every religion is 'organized' and you do not. Is that basically correct?

GD

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GrythusDraconis said:I think where the disconnect is between us is that I think every
religion is 'organized' and you do not. Is that basically correct?

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Yes. Basically. While I again remind everyone, I abhor religion in and of itself, I have seen it work for the betterment of people. Was it organized? Yes, but only as organized as to be fruitful for the SMALL masses.

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GrythusDraconis said:... it was only a day and a half at best.

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Sorry, I found the discussion worthy. But please take your time.

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GrythusDraconis said:I'm talking about those things that were prior to the actual organizations of religions that we know today. Those things that 'gave rise to religion' but were just ideas. I'm
certain that I could convince people that may way was the right way and that everyone should follow me to be 'good people'. I would be developing a religion around MY personal belief... that doesn't make my
belief a religion.

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I suggest that the early idea of "beliefs" came from what man could not explain. And when man came up with answers to these questions that he could not explain, that individual became their spiritual leader. Now after time, that leader passed down his knowledge to others, and then it became a belief structure. A belief structure that was followed by the leaders of that clan. This "Majic" was the earliest conception of religion. This is where I believe "religion" started.

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GrythusDraconis said:Belief in deity or spirits or anything else doesn't equate a religious belief.

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Yes it does. It is exactly these ideas that inspired early man.



4 the sake of discussion GD, I am "thinking", about the origin of religion, based on man existing, over 100 thousand years in the past. Yet perhaps I have gone far to back in time?

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

(Edited by Zynx on 11-10-2005 03:03)

The time frame is really unimportant. The same process happens all over throughout time but to clarify... while you are 'thinking' about the origins of religion... I'm talking about the ideas and beliefs that came before that. It may have spawned religion but it wasn't religion yet. That's what I'm trying to point out to you, that you blatently ignored BTW, is that you are equating things that 'gave rise to religion' WITH 'religion'. If those things that eventually evolved into religion were already religion then nothing 'gave rise' to it at all. Thats what I meant about it being a self defeating arguement. Inspiration can't equal the result of that inspiration. The result of that inspiration is something else.

If theorizing about things that we don't understand equals a religious belief then all of the scienctists and philosophers are SOL and apparently believers in religion. This idea, I suppose, supports the camp that believes that Atheism is a religion.

You seem to have gotten into your head that this control and drive for power and profit I spoke of in my definition of religion is 'bad' for mankind. I said it is rarely done for the benefit of mankind. That doesn't mean it can't benefit mankind. That just isn't the primary goal. Some religious leaders believe what they preach... others don't. Some(most I would think) religions are run without malice but they all work towards one goal. A singular society of followers of one particular faith to the exclusion of others with all of the power and control that entails. It's a market of faith with us as the consumers. These religions are trying to put each other out of business and hostile takeovers don't appear to be finished yet.

GD

(Edited by GrythusDraconis on 11-11-2005 17:38)

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GrythusDraconis said:The time frame is really unimportant.

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I say WRONG! A "time frame" will show an exact point of understanding.

GD, show us some specifics!

I say this;
1) A single persons beliefs was realized.
2) That persons beliefs was discussed within a group of individuals.
This is a path, that MIGHT have allowed others to CREATE a "religion". No proof, but the possibility exists.

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GrythusDraconis said:It may have spawned religion but it wasn't religion yet.

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Again, GD, show us some specifics!

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "