Topic awaiting preservation: The right of Americans to travel freely

Next Stop: Big Brother

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On the 9th of December 2005, Deborah Davis will be arraigned in U.S. District Court in a case that will determine whether Deb and the rest of us live in a free society, or in a country where we must show "papers" whenever a cop demands them.

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We do a whole lot of talking now. We discuss and debate all of the wrongs that this country and this world inflict upon others, but I do not know how to act against them.

Things in this country keep getting worse and worse, and I want to help to make this stop, but is giving money to the ACLU or the EFF all that one can do to help protect their lives and their freedoms?

Dan @ Code Town

<WRONG THREAD/>

(Edited by WarMage on 11-28-2005 14:06)

"Land of the free and home of the ...." brownshirts.

Well...since we live in a country where there is always the threat of terrosim and the such, we do have the man-power to help prevent things like bus bombers. So where does it start and stop and who or what is to blame? Dunno. But I do know that if I were on a bus and a security gaurd came by and asked for ID...I'd show them my ID. I have nothing to hide and I don't find it offensive that someone is "looking out for us".

That's how I see it anyway. I don't really view it as "Big Brother Watching over us".

Now...this:

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What does an ID, any ID, do for security? The honest answer is 'not much'.

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is the only thing that would trouble me. Sure, I'll show my ID. Now..what does that tell you? Not much. It either tells you the truth or it may not.

This thread may do better in Philosophy forum though

Later,

C:\

Well...since we live in a country where there is always the threat of terrosim and the such, we do have the man-power to help prevent things like bus bombers. So where does it start and stop and who or what is to blame? Dunno. But I do know that if I were on a bus and a security gaurd came by and asked for ID...I'd show them my ID. I have nothing to hide and I don't find it offensive that someone is "looking out for us".

That's how I see it anyway. I don't really view it as "Big Brother Watching over us".

Now...this:

quote:

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What does an ID, any ID, do for security? The honest answer is 'not much'.

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is the only thing that would trouble me. Sure, I'll show my ID. Now..what does that tell you? Not much. It either tells you the truth or it may not.

This thread may do better in Philosophy forum though

Later,

C:\

Agree at 100% with CPrompt. I'd only lower the level of terrorist threat that floats in his post. Afaik you're living in the U.S. not in Israel or Palestin.

People are silly sometimes.

Out of "principle" this women has been arrested and will have to pay for a lawyer all to avoid opening her wallet. YOU SHOW THEM DEB!

People need to grow up. She was asked to show ID. It's not as though they asked her to drop her pants for a stool sample in public.

(Edited by Jestah on 11-28-2005 23:03)

"principle" means an awful lot.

As can be seen from the silly charges filed against her, there is no law requiring us to show ID under such circumstances. In fact it is a violation of our constitutional rights to be forced to do so - and that is the bottom line.

I don't understand how standing up for that can be ridiculed

brings to mind one of my favorite quotes from Benjamin Franklin -

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.



(Edited by DL-44 on 11-28-2005 22:39)

There's a couple of other interesting and related cases on that site.

Check out the root to find the hiibel and gilmore cases, John Gilmore is the founder of the EFF and one of the major contributers to the GNU projects.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

someone feel free to delete my double post. I tried to edit it but it said it was too old

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poi said:

I'd only lower the level of terrorist threat that floats in his post. Afaik you're living in the U.S. not in Israel or Palestin.

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Yeah, I live in the US. I didn't mean to say that we were under constant threat, but since it all started things have gotten more "tight" around here.

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DL-44 said:
In fact it is a violation of our constitutional rights to be forced to do so - and that is the bottom line.

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Really? I didn't know that.

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I don't understand how standing up for that can be ridiculed

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I could easily say "I don't understand what the big deal is of why she wouldn't just show her ID.

Which brings a question to mind. Why was the security guard wanting everyone's ID's? I didn't see anything on the site that told why.

Later,

C:\

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CPrompt said:

I do know that if I were on a bus and a security guard came by and asked for ID...I'd show them my ID

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How about if you take the same bus every day and it stops every day and a security guard comes on board every day and wants to see your ID, needlessly delaying your trip to work every day? Especially if it was a non-security area and there was no need for ID checks? And you finally got fed up with having your civil rights threatened?

ah....good point.

Later,

C:\

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CPrompt said:

I could easily say "I don't understand what the big deal is of why she wouldn't just show her ID.

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Yes, you could. But the website seems to cover that one pretty well already

What I find more ridiculous than anything else here is that she was never bothered for 'not having' her ID. This shows very clearly that they in no way needed to see the ID, and in no way did anything with the ID. Only when she said she did have it but wouldn't show it was there a problem.

What does that, combined with the ridiculous charges that were filed say about the whole affair?

And in light of that, and in response to your question, how about another - what is the big deal about her *not* showing her ID?

Authority was defied.

Authority tends to have a very frail ego.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Wouldn't refusing to show her ID to the guard just delay her trip to work even further?

What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever, insider....

You look at this as a little issue. But this is a huge issue.

Today you are asked to show your ID on a bus. You are then asked next week, and then you are asked every day. It is then decided that it is a hassel to have to ask to see your id everyday so instead a law is created to mandate that you have an ID on your person visibly displayed at all times.

Maybe instead of an ID they make you put a gold star on your jacket, put you in box cars and then into a gas chamber.

If you do not put your foot down when your freedoms are violated you will continue to lose more and more. Even if these reforms to your freedom are for what would appear _a good cause_.

There are many good ways to fight terrorism. The good ways don't involve checking IDs on buses, they don't involve searches before boarding and airplane, and they definately do not involve random searches to get on a subway.

The good ways to fight terrorism is to hunt down terrorists. They involve spending money infiltrating their organizations, and systimatically destroying them.

Terrorists attack undefended places, and they attack anywhere where there are people gathered.

The will attack weddings, arcades, malls, restaurants, arenas, stadiums, busy street corners. You can not defend all of these places with point defense measures.

You need to do the following.

1. Actively infiltrate terrorist organizations and seize assets used by these organizations.
2. Invest in emergency response and training to minimize the damage caused by a terrorist activity.

This is prevention and recovery, but in a way that does not take away freedoms, and prevention in such a way as to provide more benefit than hinderance.

The methods we have in place today offer the appearance of security (which is good for polititions) but do not create a good balance of security versus $$$. All of the money spend on new TSA employees should be immediately redirected to the CIA and to Emergency response so that we get the most out of the money we are spending on security.

Dan @ Code Town

You have that right WM. Just as the Nazis forced Jews to wear the Star of David armbands.

There is no difference.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Blah, blah, blah, frickin' check her attitude!

Too many times the public perception, is wrong.

To me this is a non-issue!

Z.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

It's just stupitiy on everyone's part. Sure it may have been wrong on the part of whomever decided it was a good idea to insitute the search. But there are proper channel she should have opted for, before resorting to civil disobedience to bring this issue into question.

Why not just, call the ACLU, write her local city/state/gov officials, or even the media if that got no response. Instead she waste everyones time, money, and distract from real security concerns by not thinking things through.

Oh well now there will be a demostration that will cost the tax payers more money as there will need to be more security, and clean up. Well at least the Minnie Donut guys will get a chance to make some money....

quote:

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The good ways to fight terrorism is to hunt down terrorists. They involve spending money infiltrating their organizations, and systimatically destroying them.

Terrorists attack undefended places, and they attack anywhere where there are people gathered.

The will attack weddings, arcades, malls, restaurants, arenas, stadiums, busy street corners. You can not defend all of these places with point defense measures.

You need to do the following.

1. Actively infiltrate terrorist organizations and seize assets used by these organizations.
2. Invest in emergency response and training to minimize the damage caused by a terrorist activity.

This is prevention and recovery, but in a way that does not take away freedoms, and prevention in such a way as to provide more benefit than hinderance.

The methods we have in place today offer the appearance of security (which is good for polititions) but do not create a good balance of security versus $$$. All of the money spend on new TSA employees should be immediately redirected to the CIA and to Emergency response so that we get the most out of the money we are spending on security.

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Right on!

Sacrificing liberties and Rights are not solutions to the problem. That only hurts me and you in the long run, not terrorists. Terrorists show us by their actions that security and safety are illusions, at best. Any terrorist (or activist, or person, for that matter) willing to sacrifice their own life in support of their beliefs in a violent manner cannot be stopped by such measures.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles