Topic awaiting preservation: Has bin Laden won? (Page 1 of 1)

Well......

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/13487511.htm

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Revenant: The Zombie Magazine | Wonders | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Has bin Laden won?

Yes, but he is hardly the only one.

The Bush administration and the many members of congress and the senate who support them have also won, and in turn they have created many benefactors in the corporate world. From defense companies cleaning up in war, and also providing "security" here at home, all the way down to basic retailers who are now drawing up plans to put starbucks and McDonalds on every streetcorner in Iraq. They are all cleaning up in the suffering we are causing, for love of money.

We are told that 9/11 was an intelligence failure, but in reality it was an intelligence success. A success which I believe many of these elite assholes who capitalize on human suffering think will allow them to maintain their dominance in the world for many years to come.

The American people are so fucking dumbed down that 60% of them can't even find the Middle-East on a map, and the reamaining people are either in on it, brainwashed to the point where they think we should nuke the ME into a sheet of glass, or helpless to change anything, unable to stoop to the self-depreciating level of our greedy and ignorant counterparts, and basically ignored or called "defeatists" when we voice our concerns.

We have the news channels not only giving us their interpretation of the news, leaving out important facts to suit one agenda over another, but we also have them telling us how we should feel. "How does that make you feel?" can be heard countless times a night on American news. To hell with thinking... thinking is dangerous, and speaking truth over bullshit "political correctness" is also quite dangerous. Ignorance is strength.

We have watched America transform itself into exactly what we were trying to avoid when it was said, "We must not let the terrorist attacks of 9/11 change how we live our lives."

I don't know where this is all leading us, but one can say with relative certainty that the next few decadess in American history will be quite dark, until the people wake up and decide once and for all to WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN.

/rant off


Ramasax

quote:

---

ad anyone said our president would invade a country and kill 30,000 of its people claiming a threat that never, in fact, existed, then admit he would have invaded even if he had known there was no threat

---

Did Dubya really said that ? if so ... I'm speechless.

After reading that article, and realising the path made till 9/11 I must say, in trivial terms : Bin Laden: 2 / Bush: 0

Interestingly this isn't the first time a thread with this title has been posted.

Has Bin Laden won?

Not much of a thread but it's interesting to see how things have "changed".



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

(Edited by bitdamaged on 12-27-2005 19:51)

quote:

---

Did Dubya really said that ? if so ... I'm speechless.

---

He admitted the "intelligence" they based their decision on was flawed. (Note he didn't say it was his mistake). And he's tried to justify the war because of the monster Sadam was. ("It was still the right thing to do" I believe is the gist of the quote).



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

quote:

---

Bin Laden: 2 / Bush: 0

---

Close Poi, I'd say it goes more like this...

Bin Laden: 2 / Bush & Friends: 20+ / Us: 0

Not saying they were in on it together, although that is always a possibility considering the close ties between the Bush and Bin Laden famiies, but there is certainly more than one benefactor to this whole scheme that has gone done.

Ramasax

quote:

---

until the people wake up and decide once and for all to WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN.

---

I don't know if this will ever happen. I used to think about it until I realized that there will never be a bunch of freethinkers. It is a wishful thinking, but given the population number, I doubt it is possible.

The only solution I could come up with is something along the lines of : "gaining a privilege to vote, as opposed to having a privilege to vote"

and a simple criteria would be, "above the average income or a college degree"

I know it's not perfect, but I think it would eliminate half of the dipshit ghetto assholes and rednecks.

just mine $0.02

The first instinct I had when the towers were hit was that Dumbya was behind it...perhaps with Bin Laden's collusion.

Looking at that article and other developements, including the increasingly strident mouthings of the xian right, I have not yet seen anything to change my mind.

So the question perhaps is; "Did Bush and Bin laden win?".

One thing is certain, people around the world, especially in the US and to a slightly lesser degree in Canada, have lost...a lot.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

quote:

---

I don't know if this will ever happen. I used to think about it until I realized that there will never be a bunch of freethinkers. It is a wishful thinking, but given the population number, I doubt it is possible.

---

People will be brought around without being educated, whether they like it or not. A good stiff dose of reality can do that. Their lives just have to be affected in a negative way long enough to reach a breaking point, which even "ghetto assholes" and "rednecks" will reach eventually. Actually, if I had to guess, I think the "ghetto assholes" are more than likely already on board. A lot of poor folk are, they just don't have a voice or power to change anything. Unfortunately, they often fall for the rhetoric at election time, and still go back next election even though the politicians have totally failed them.

Anyway, if the people were stripped of all the crap they have and take for granted, and were faced with what it is like to be truly deprived or oppressed, to truly "need" something to survive...

This will happen eventually, either quickly through a succession of economic crashes or over a long period of time, say a few decades, in which oppression grows, we are constantly at war through corporate/government collaboration, the poor/rich ratio continues as it currently has been, the treasury is pilfered to the point where we give 50%+ of our incomes to taxes (to fund war, lavish lifestyles in Washington, corporate welfare, etc.), social security collapses, and life becomes hard, truly hard for the common American.

When this happens, it will become second nature to question authority, especially when this authority is seemingly bending them over and having the time of its life doing so. People will start asking the right questions and stop listening to and believing the outright lies when the truth is staring them in the face. People would be more down to earth and more likely to pay attention to what is going on around them, more likely to call a spade a spade and speak the truth even when it is unpopular to do so, more cynical to the point where they might even start thinking for themselves again. In short, eventually the numbness will wear off and people are going to realize that their asses are sore. And when that happens, there are going to be a lot of pissed off people out there.

Look at third world nations who kick their governments out. These people are not necessarily the most educated out there, but they do one thing better than us. They pay attention, because they value and truly comprehend the word freedom. It is more than a word politicians throw around to make us feel all tingly inside, it is a lifestyle, a way of life and thought that does not take rocket scientists to understand.

We were riding the peak of the wave for a while there, and have become totally complacent, materialist, and even selfish (generally speaking) but we are coming down now, and eventually all empires crumble. Whether it is a few years, decades, or even a century, remains to be seen, but history shows us it is a pretty safe bet, and considering all the draconian legislation they have slipped through, probably what they are truly preparing for.

War on Terror? Foreign or domestic? blah blah.

On the other hand, if America were to collapse, we'd just be sucked up into the global empire whch is quickly coming together. Perhaps it is all just a lose/lose situation and each of us should just go about our lives and try to take care of those around us. Who the hell knows, my brain hurts.

Ramasax

quote:

---

The first instinct I had when the towers were hit was that Dumbya was behind it...perhaps with Bin Laden's collusion.

---

Now, I'm not a big fan of George W, but, are you some kind of idiot?

quote:

---

briggl said:

quote:The first instinct I had when the towers were hit was that Dumbya was behind it...perhaps with Bin Laden's collusion.

Now, I'm not a big fan of George W, but, are you some kind of idiot?

---

There's quite a bit of evidence pointing in just that direction. Michael C. Ruppert's web site, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/ summarizes much of it. His book, Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil is quite convincing.

Nope Briggl, not some kind of idiot, perhaps some sort of seer though.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

In a word - no.

Bin Laden has not won. We are still alive, we are still here.

But he has managed to accomplish alot of his goals (or rather, the goals of a terrorist) and has eluded capture.
The rest, we have done to ourselves.
That means, we can also undo it.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Is alive enough?

Alive or the perception he is alive, suits Dumbya's agenda very nicely.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

I mean 'us'.

Where there is life and mentation, there is hope.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

There is no fucking way that the president of the USA was complicit in the attack us!

No?

How do you know this with such certainty? The power mongers for whom he is a puppet, are entirely capable of such an act.

That he is too stupid to contrive the plan himself is unquestioned. But he is greedy enough for power and money to go along if told to go along.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Yeah, and Nostradomus predicted that it would happen, I suppose. And the Bible code, too.

If you people are so easliy swayed by some idiot's theories, then my opinion of your intelligence has gone down a great deal!

Briggl, please state who "you people" are - I do not like being lumped together into something that I don't agree with, nor support.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

By "you people" I was referring to Dio and anyone else who, based on reading some itiot's book and web site, believes that the president of the USA was involved in any way with allowing the attacks of 9/11.

GW may have exploited these events after the fact to push his own agenda, but that is a whole different thing.

Thanks for clearing that up, Briggl.

While we may not have conclusive evidence of Bush being involved directly, there is certainly enough verified information and documentation for it to be a viable possibilty that he was indirectly involved, and has since capitalized off of it bigtime. Being long-time business partners and close friends with funders of terrorists and even the alleged mastermind's family, helping them out when some information needed covering up or an investigation was in need of termination, not to mention those special flights out of the US in the days following the attacks, among many other small facts -- you put it all together and it is hard to see any alternative aside from Bush, or rather the Bush's, being involed.

They play a large part in the diseased little geopolitical game for power and profit which shaped the events of 9/11 long before they happened, and in my book, especially when coupled with their seeming lack of any ethics or conscience whatsoever when it comes to the well-being of others or the future ramifications of their actions on the general population, they are all guilty as hell. Bunch of psychopathic, egocentric opportunists who aren't suited for any position which entails service to others. If they were poor, they'd be in prison.

There are some very dangerous people in this world, and the Bush family ranks pretty high. Whether or not they are smart enough to realize what their actions do -- perhaps they are so blinded by greed they just do not see it -- or they actually set out to commit specific acts matters not to me. The danger is the same either way. So long as they have money and the lust for more, and so long as that money is buying them the power, they are a threat.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 12-31-2005 10:05)

I assure you Briggl I do not lay awake nights worryng about your opinion of me or of my intellect.

I have not read any book or website on the matter and arrived at my conclusions independantly and as noted, long before anyone else started bruiting the idea around.

That there is, in the aftermath, an amazing amount of evidence pointing to the possibility of my immediate gut reaction being accurate, is a frightening reality.

One you clearly don't like, but one which holds too much water not to be considered.

Ramasax's points are not founded in drug-induced speculation, but hard fact.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

That it's all about oil I don't think can be denied. I cannot however connect the dots to the bush administration being even remotely connected to 911.

bin Laden was a known commodity for a very long time. He has no time for the US period. After 911 - I recall a video clip of him sitting around with a group of organizers/followers and having a pretty good chuckle over how easy it was to convince the extremists to carry out their mission in the name of islam. Given his long time distain for the US I think it reasonable to assume that if he could implicate the US in any way at all, he would have wrapped it up all pretty like with a big bow and delivered it a long time ago.

And just from a practical and 'creature comfort' point of view I can't see bin Laden wandering around from cave to cave when he'd be welcome with open arms in Iran.

Where the dots can be connected however is, imo, a strategy to impede what I think is the virtaully unstoppable march of China. There are a ton of excellent links in this piece.

quote:

---

The US keeps six nuclear battle fleets permanently at sea supported by an unparalleled network of global bases not because of irrational chauvinism or the needs of the military-industrial complex, but because of the pressure they place on upstart countries like China.

---

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-henderson230705.htm

(Edited by NoJive on 01-01-2006 21:42)

If the president had any idea that it was going to happen before hand, he would have done something to stop it. He would not have allowed something like that to happen. He could have done everything else he has done based on the fact that Bin Laden was planning something like that.

It will take a lot more that some people thinking that he might have been involved to make me believe that he was.

While I am not at a point where I would say that Bush was involved, it is *not* hard to imagine that he could have been.
History is rife with such occurances.

quote:

---

briggl said:

He could have done everything else he has done based on the fact that Bin Laden was planning something like that.

---

I have to disagree with this.
If the president came on TV to announce findings that a terrorist group had been planning an attack, it would certainly hvae incited some sense of collective patriotism, on a small level, and there would have been supporters for what he wanted to do in the Middle East.

Nothing short of what actually happened on 9/11 could have allowed so many things to be pushed through with brute force - no allegations of a plot that never came to fruition would rally the masses behind him, would not have allowed the Patriot Act to go through, would not have left so many blind eyes and turned heads when it came to his bait and switch and his administrations general under-handedness.

Obviously, this does not mean that he *was* involved.

But it cannot be strictly ruled out, based on the thought that he wouldn't allow it to happen, or by thinking that it did not aid in his agenda.

quote:

---

If the president had any idea that it was going to happen before hand, he would have done something to stop it. He would not have allowed something like that to happen.

---

And you know this how? Because he is the POTUS? Bah!

I don't know what is crazier, believing Bush was directly involved in 911, or what you said above.

I'd like to continue this conversation, and open it up to the next level, because it is very interesting, but I go back to work from my week long break tomorrow, and doubt I will have the time. To outline everything in my mind, and the sources from which I have gathered all my info, which makes me believe there is a link, an indirect one, (going back all the way to papa Bush's career in the CIA), would take far too much time.

All I can do is urge others, if they have not already, to take their investigation to the next level. This is not a crowd that needs information thrown at them anyway, and all are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions based on the information they consume.

In any case, it is all prety inconsequential now anyways. We'll never know for certain, in our lifetimes at least, exactly what went down. All that is important now is the future and how we deal with it. Keep you cycicism and question everything.

Ram

"remotely connected" Poor choice of words on my part. I was thinking more along the lines of '... bin ol' friend we need a favor...' I have no problem entertaining the notion that someone knew 'something' was up and decided to do nothing in order to further an agenda.

As DL said; "History is rife with such occurances." Churchill, for example had, Coventry.

quote:

---

briggl said:

If the president had any idea that it was going to happen before hand, he would have done something to stop it. He would not have allowed something like that to happen. He could have done everything else he has done based on the fact that Bin Laden was planning something like that.It will take a lot more that some people thinking that he might have been involved to make me believe that he was.

---

Briggl, it's probaby worth mentioning that Pres. Bush did have a pretty good idea of what was happening. After all, he was briefed about 5 weeks prior to the attack. His actions? Well he did go on vacation for 4 weeks.

I've never been much of a consipracy theoriest and I don't think Pres. Bush was involved in the attacks but to say he did everything he could to prevent the attacks is silly. As I said above, after being briefed on them more than a month in advance he choose to do nothing. What is more puzzling is his refusal to actually discuss Al Queda and bin Laden prior to 9/11.

Again, I don't think the President had any involvement in 9/11 but I do believe he saw dollar signs before his eyes when he was briefed on the subject. Since the attack, he's been able to accomplish virtually every thing he wanted to do on the grounds of national security. He went from having low approval ratings to being in the 90s. He also made a whole lot of money for his backers. To dismiss these motivations seem silly to me.

Some more grist for your collective mills;

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
http://www.911inplanesite.com/

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

http://www.loosechange911.com/
Watch it.


Mike Ruppert - The Truth Lies of 911 (video)

Two of the best I've seen in terms of summation and connecting the dots.

Ram

I only read the few first post so I do apology if this has been said, but I want to say this now and come back to it once I have read the rest, in case it is obsolete...

Terrorism is the best way from any point of view to keep a nation quiet. It does not matter if the threat is real or not, terrorism allows the government to concentrate on the real purpose of the war: petrol.

I have never believed one second Bush was concerned about his people's worries and fears. He never was, as he created them.

Now sorry if this has been said, I go back to my reading

quote:

---

Ruski said:

I don't know if this will ever happen. I used to think about it until I realized that there will never be a bunch of freethinkers. It is a wishful thinking, but given the population number, I doubt it is possible.

---

No only the population number, but also the country's surface might be a problem too.

quote:

---

Diogenes said:

Where there is life and mentation, there is hope.

---

That is very sad, what you're saying... It feels like the US have nothing left but hope... I am not judging, only pointing out that if hope is all what the US have left, it proves how bad all this is.

quote:

---

Diogenes said:

How do you know this with such certainty? The power mongers for whom he is a puppet, are entirely capable of such an act.That he is too stupid to contrive the plan himself is unquestioned. But he is greedy enough for power and money to go along if told to go along.

---

yes, definitely.

quote:

---

Ramasax said:

there is certainly enough verified information and documentation for it to be a viable possibilty that he was indirectly involved, and has since capitalized off of it bigtime. Being long-time business partners and close friends with funders of terrorists and even the alleged mastermind's family, helping them out when some information needed covering up or an investigation was in need of termination, not to mention those special flights out of the US in the days following the attacks, among many other small facts

---

Since the 9/11, Bin Laden has played the meanie to justify this shambles and carnage (his own people!) so that when the time has come to share the jackpot (oil, power, money), Bin Laden gets his share and shuts up (which was agreed well before 9/11).
Easy busy, nobody has seen anything, the US are happy because their president has won the war, the British government is screwed up but does not realise it before it's too late, Europe is as screwed up as the rest of the world, the US people shut up because they get the lifestyle, etc.

There is nothing funny here...

I can't help but wonder why the buildings fell so neatly? It seems like jet fuel doesn't burn explosively or hot enough to implode a building like a controlled demolition. I would think the top of the building would fall down and off to the side. Unless some force was pulling it downward. It's a creepy thought.

Bush and Bin Laden go way back...

I'd be foolish to think that no one could be capable of harming people for personal gain... let alone for power. History is rife with leaders who have done unspeakable things to their own citizens.

I truly want to believe that evrything is as it appears on the surface. But how often is that the case?
And how often is truth more bizarre than fiction?

Does anyone believe that Bush was unaware of the CIA flights of prisoners being brought places where they could be tortured?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bush ok with provisions of the Patriot act taking away the rights of citizenship? This is scary stuff. If he is capable of that, what else is he and those who control power capable of?

It troubles me...

I don't necessarily believe the conspiracy theorists, but I can't just dismiss them without question because of blind faith in a man. Especially a man I don't know personally. And I don't believe this man anymore. He has done something evil in the name of saving us. And where there is one evil, there is bound to be others.

______________
Is This Thing On?

Webbing; the stuff that sticks to your face.

quote:

---

UnknownComic said:

He has done something evil in the name of saving us. And where there is one
evil, there is bound to be others.

---

Especially that it really seems to me that he is not saving anybody from the real threat, or even from something that really exists...