Topic awaiting preservation: Booming nations 'threaten Earth'

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if China and India were to consume as much resources per capita as Japan in 2030 "together they would require a full planet Earth to meet their needs"

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4604556.stm

Unless full body transplants are perfected relatively soon, I rather doubt I'll be using 'resources' in 2030.

That's only 24 years from now. Are you ready for serious /radical changes to your way of life?

It will be an interesting global challenge, to see how we deal with the rather precious amount of resources here, on Earth. I am feverently hoping that it will lead to the "explosion into Space" that I have been waiting for most of my life. I hope I am around to witness it.

On the other hand, it could lead to another World War, as we all struggle to obtain those precious, dwindling resources left.

Interesting times, indeed!

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

This actually sounds more like economic stuff. I don't think you really can run out of fresh water, there'd probably have to be a natural cataclysm for such a thing to happen. Energy is not an issue, there are tons of ways to get it wasting very little. Agriculture doesn't need acreage, either. The only real concern is how much land everyone plows down and how much pollution that produces before they realize it's idiotic.

(Edited by reisio on 01-12-2006 15:09)

Judging by experience from human behaviour this is how I see how it will be "handled" over a couple of generations, perhaps "slightly" cynical, but still...

1. Economic takeover of resources
2. Where 1 doesn't work, forceful takeovers
3. Continued slowpaced research on alternative resources until it's too late, then revert to 2
4. Continued neglect of 3rd world countries with large populations, "perhaps they will die out and open for 1 & 2"
5. If 4 doesn't work, go to 2.
6. More sects claiming that "an outside force will intervene and save us"
7. More research into prolonged lifespan
8. A very small "Explosion" into space, naturally only for the selected rich and "important" population
9. Nature will remove enough humans in order to try to restore the balance
10. Remaining humans kill off each other
11. Reboot of earth

Problem solved...
Me pessimistic??? Nope, realistic
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{"Theories without facts are just religions...?}-

Always gonna be a few humans.

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I don't think you really can run out of fresh water, there'd probably have to be a natural cataclysm for such a thing to happen.

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Disagree. Only 0.3% of all the world's water is fresh, and due to pollution, growing populations, and the icecaps melting into the sea, this is quickly becoming a problem. Couple this with the privatization of water on a massive scale, where decicions about water are being made in boardrooms, not with the welfare of people in mind, but that of profit.... The big three water companies; Suez, Vivendi, and RWE THames, are going to be as big as Exxon in the next 30 years.

Perhaps us developed nations will be the last to be affected though, at least in terms of having water to survive, though the effect on our bank accounts will likely be harsh (not just in terms of your "water bill", nearly everything you buy involves water at some point), while the 3rd world dwindles away from lack of food and uprisings, and war. Perhaps Canada, the largest holder of freshwater in the world will be the "New Middle East" and we can go in and "liberate" them too. What fun!

Also with privatization will come selective investment, limited to countries with strong civil societies. Developed nations will be serviced first, because infrastucture is already in place. The poor will continue to be left out.

Face it, we're fucked.

Ram

That sounds pretty far fetched Ram.

While there's a finite amount of oil in the ground, water is a renewable resource. Each year improvements are made in the desalination industry making it easier and cheaper to remove the salt and other chemicals from sea water in order to make it drinkable.

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Jestah said:

Each year improvements are made in the desalination industry making it easier and cheaper to remove the salt and other chemicals from sea water in order to make it drinkable.

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But these are still things controlled by corporations, with only profit in mind. having the technology available and making use of it for the good of the world's population are two vastly different things...

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That sounds pretty far fetched Ram.

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If it makes you feel better to not face up to what is increasingly becoming a very real scenario, go ahead Jestah. And if you want to rely on technology as the savior of mankind, you are free to do that as well, but with every advance in technology comes an exploitation of that advance. Technology is partially the cause of our current predicament, so I can hardly rely on that as a scenario. Also, new technologies are out there, the biggest problem is without the infrastucture to support them they wil be all but useless. Do you see these alternative infrasuctures being set up anywhere? They better get started soon, because setting up such things on a scale large enough to support billions without cheap oil is going to be very costly.

Desalinization is very expensive, and will continue to be very expensive. Even if the process itself, which consumes massive amounts of energy (i.e. OIL) is streamlined, what to do with the salt? You can't just dump it back into the ocean in a single because you will kill off the life there, although dead-spots in the ocean are spreading rapidly anyways because of the slowing of the gulf stream, the melting of the ice caps, and all the other crap which is ruining the balance of a delicate ecosystem, so that may very well be a viable option at some point. You cannot dump it just anywhere on land either, because you will then have a barren salt dump where nothing will grow. So, you will have to ship it somewhere, which uses oil.

Then you have to transport the water itself, which, without oil, will also be a very troublesome task. Whether by sea, land or pipe, all these transportation systems use oil. Then there will be all the useless irrigation systems out there, which use oil, which leads to food shortages. Not to mention the lack of pesticides, which are made from oil. The regular water plantts, which use oil. Water is going to be increasingly expensive no matter how you look at it. Even if you think water is an infinate resource, our current means of spreading it around is just about to become obsolete.

You agree that oil is a finite resource, so just think about all the products you use which involve oil, or better yet make a list of the things you have bought in the last year which did not involve oil at some point. Like water, oil is used in one aspect or another of just about everything you consume. Petrolium products are everywhere you look, products are packaged in them, products are shipped with them, products are produced with them. The current population of the Earth is sustained because of the oil age. (view graph) Even if they find an alternative energy source, you will still be without things like plastics, pesticides, hundreds of thousands of different chemicals, and all the other things which make our lives as easy as they are. For instance, to produce a vehicle takes on average 13% of the actual oil that will be pumped into it over its lifetime. Tires take 7-10 gallons each alone.

Entire economy's are going to collapse, you will no longer be buying products shipped from half-way around the world -- Globalization is dying --, and everything is going to be localized. Communities, neighbors depending on neighbors, are coming back in a big way. Permaculture.

Hate to say it, but billions of people are going to die in this transition. There is no way getting around it.

People are living in denial of a harsh reality that is looming on the horizon, and I can honestly say I am scared as hell. The only people who are really preparing for the end of the oil age are the elitists, hiding this information from the general public so that they can siphon off as much wealth as they can before the entire false bubble explodes in a big way.

But hey, it is all so far fetched, or at least far off in the distance, so let's put it in the back of our minds and go about business as usual.

Ram

(Edited by Ramasax on 01-14-2006 20:49)

DL-44 - No, government agencies use desalination plants as well. Although the majority of plants are located in the Middle East, I believe both Florida and California have desalination plants as well.

Not that that matters. It would be economically impossible to dominate drinkable water the same way oil is dominated. Oil is capable of being dominated because (1.) its of finite quanity and (2.) its only located in large quantities in very few areas around the globe. Water is (1.) renewable and (2.) located everywhere.

Water is renewable, yes, but must be prepared for consumption.

Who will be the main peparer of this in the future? Corporations.

Why do corporations exist, to profit.

Enough said.

Ram

Ram,

What you are saying is simply illogical.

(1.) Your impending fuel crisis rests on two premises: (a.) the globe waits until the oil is gone before doing something about it and (b.) in an era of rapid technological advancement, oil will even matter by the time it runs out.

(2.) Your impending water crisis relies on a handful of corporations some how purchasing ALL waterfront property around the globe and retaining the rights to all water sources around the globe including the oceans.

And you call that illogical?

That sounds about right based on human history and modern corporate and governmental action...

=)

No Jestah, you simply are not grasping what I am saying and/or are unable to understand current geopolitcal and economical trends and the impending shift therein.

Technological advancment, bah! OIL does and will continue to matter, for all the reasons I described above and more.

Also, who said anything about waterfront property purchases? They are not purchasing anything, they are, in many cases, being given control over the resources by overburderened and/or corrupt and/or ignorant governments - local, state, and federal - on a global scale and the trend shows no sign of dwindling. There have already been bans on rainwater harvesting in many 3rd world countries, and they are lobbying for the same thing here as well. Just last year Washington state legislature had a bill trying to do just that.

It is a problem and will continue to be a problem until people like you wake up and realize WTF is going on in their world. To ask the original question, and regardless of the specifics of how the scenario plays out, are you ready for serious/radical changes to your way of life? It is coming wheter you can break through the denial or not.


Ram

(Edited by Ramasax on 01-15-2006 00:49)

Ram, for once in your life use some common sense.

Don't you get tired of looking foolish?

Jestah: Don't be put off by the cute & cuddley name "lovearth network"... get past the name and there's some information in here that ...ahhh welll..... you should at least consider. I'm just not sure you're aware of what's going on...

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"The basic issue is the fact that water is renewable but finite; any place where population grows, you'll have a diminished supply per person."

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The legal battles have been underway for a while.

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In one case, Sunbelt Water Inc. is suing the British Colombia government under provisions of the North American Free Trade Agreement for $10.5 billion in damages for "lost business opportunities." The California-based Sunbelt claims it was only trying to supply the drought-stricken Golden State with water, while the BC government countered that it just wants to protect its own freshwater supplies.

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http://www.freshwater.net/worldwatersupplydropping.htm

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In the United States, the European water giants have gone on a buying spree of America?s largest private water utility companies, including USFilter and American Water Works Co. Inc. Of the seven major private water companies in the United States today, only one is still U.S.-owned. The companies have tripled their political contributions in the United States and are trying to persuade Congress to require cash-strapped municipal governments to consider privatizing their waterworks in exchange for federal dollars.

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http://www.freshwater.net/TheWaterBarons.htm

Ram is not looking or being foolish.

It doesn't matter if people hoard water or people can't get to it. Either people will fight for it, find other ways of getting it, or they'll die. The Earth and humans on it will continue to thrive, we just might take a hit.

Overpopulation is old news. China has done something about it; I haven't really researched, but my understanding is that India doesn't give a rat's ass.

Wow! An IF perception about the future of mankind.

Ok, I'm game!

HYDROGEN!

An unlimited source of energy, with an unlimited knowledge of how to convert it to energy.

All is well for humans in the future folks.

Take your Zanax, and relax.

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

(Edited by Zynx on 01-20-2006 01:29)

I probably have this wrong but as I understand it.... HYDROGEN itself is not a source of energy. Hydrogen stores energy created by other sources.

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NoJive said:I probably have this wrong but as I understand it.... HYDROGEN itself is not a source of energy. Hydrogen stores energy created by other sources.

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HYDROGEN itself is a source of energy, not unlike OIL, PROPANE, NATURAL GAS, and such.

This was my gist on the future of mankind.

I have also heard that if they coudl create a CLOSED system, HYDROGEN, would be th ultimate fuel.

Of course I think there some WANT in that future that might not be possible.

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

Zynx said:

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HYDROGEN itself is a source of energy, not unlike OIL, PROPANE, NATURAL GAS, and such.

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And these sources better convey what I was trying to say.

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Hydrogen is an energy carrier - like gasoline or electricity - not an energy source like oil or coal.

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http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/index.cfm?fuseaction=renewable.hydrogen

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Hydrogen isn?t an energy source ? it?s an energy carrier, like a battery. You have to make it and put energy into it, both of which take energy. Ninety-six percent is made from fossil fuels, mainly for oil refining and partially hydrogenated oil--the kind that gives you heart attacks

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http://www.culturechange.org/alt_energy.htm

NJ, I see where I am wrong on my specific, specifics. But don't try and hide behind my mistakes on this issue, by denying the specifics of your own perception that FRESH WATER, could ever be a wealth, worthy of forcing other countries to bow down before a majority LEADER of FRESH WATER!



Not to mention that the largest volume of fresh water, in the world, lies within my own backyard. And the conglomeration of such a volume of fresh water, has already made laws that does not allow, other US states, rights to such waters.

Nor is it lawfully capable of taking such rights.

So, NJ, where do live?

In the Midwest, in in the Southwest?

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

What the hell was I tinkin'!

Although I do remember hearing about CA, who wanted to build a pipe to our Great Lakes, and we all said, AW HELL NO!

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

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So, NJ, where do live?

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Vancouver Island. And You?

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forcing other countries to bow down before a majority LEADER of FRESH WATER!

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I'm not sure I understand. BEst to keep convoluted thinking tucked away and deal with oldies like me in easily understood phrases. Are you saying you do not see nations using water as currency?

My point on the whole issue of hydrogen is pretty much this.

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The laws of physics mean the hydrogen economy will always be an energy sink. Hydrogen?s properties require energy to overcome waters? hydrogen-oxygen bond, to move heavy cars, to prevent leaks and brittle metals, to transport to the destination.

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http://www.culturechange.org/alt_energy.htm