Topic: Is 'Golden Compass' 'selling atheism to kids'? (Page 2 of 2)

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poi said:

I truly believe there is such thing as neutral, toward the REAL world, upbringing.

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I suppose we could both cite studies to support our views on this, but I doubt we have the time. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

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poi said:

She'd better get the right tools as that's the only life she'll get.

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That's actually a statement of faith on your part. I respect your view, but sincerely think you're wrong and that there is more than just this life to consider.

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poi said:

I thought the most important tool was a free and open mind aka the capacity to think by oneself.

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Ok, but I didn't say that. I agree that learning how to think clearly, logically and critically is dreadfully important. But faith is not inconsistent with that, in fact, they go hand in hand. Gideon has a wonderful quote in his sig relating to that.

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poi said:

Sorry but studies have shown the total lack of effect of prayers and such on ill people.

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I wasn't referring to prayer but rather the role that faith plays in the individual patient and the strength it provides them.

I'm thinking of an experiment, for instance, that dropped rats in a bucket of water. They would measure how long they would survive before drowning. On one of the buckets they would never touch the rat and on another they would occasionally lower their hands to allow the rat to climb up out of the water briefly. The rat who was left alone drowned way sooner than the one who had the hope for lack of a better word of pulling through. That's the kind of dynamic I was referring to.

. . . : : . . Innervating Your Eyes & Mind : . . .

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt Bugs, that having no Faith in a god (or gods) in no way, shape, or form denigrates Life, the Quality of Life, or thereof. In fact, I find having no Faith at all in a god (religion) makes my life much more full and vital than before, than it did before as I was believing that I was "saved".

Remember, I used to be very religious, before turning away from the crutch and illusion that I discovered it to be.

Belief in the self, and taking full responsibility for ones life and condition is much more fulfilling to me. Awareness that my wellbeing is tied in with the wellbeing of others, and encouraging this. Acceptance of those things that I cannot change.

As for raising and nurturing children, of course some amount of "flavor" or "discoloring" will happen - that is human nature. The thing here is to refrain from actively attempting to do so, in the misplaced idea that somehow you "know better" when it comes to things that are based on pure Belief.

Like Religion.

This is why Religion is so hideous, for it propagates not only through Preaching to the Masses, but through the brainwashing of the children. It is a vehicle that allows the few to control not only the Masses, but also future generations, through the well-intended, but misguided hands of the Parents caught in the folds of Religion who are more than willing to brainwash their children.

There is a difference between teaching ones children, and brainwashing them. Teaching involves providing information and experiences in understandable form and communicating this. It does not suffocate free thought, rather it encourages it, needs it to succeed. Brainwashing is the opposite.

One needs to let their children take their steps towards growth, though it can be mighty painful to watch and experience! To suffocate this is the hold the child back, to stunt their growth. I am not saying here that one should let the child do anything it wants. I am saying that one provides the guide, the information, and instills the ability to think and evaluate into the child, and to be aware of action and consequence. Then the child needs to gather experiences at doing this, all the while not being subjected to too much risk while doing so.

What I find to be strange, is that so many Christians (and other religions, for that matter) try to follow being a good person, yadda yadda yadda as it says in their Holy Book - be a good neighbor, etc, but when it comes to their own children, they turn into the worst of Dictators and abusers of Power that can be imagined.

All is forgiven, all is easily excused in the name of "saving" the child's soul. The same evil that has led to so many attrocities at the hands of the Religious - it is Right in the name of God.

Shouldn't your personal belief be example enough?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

(Edited by WebShaman on 01-09-2008 09:41)

No surprise here but I totally agree with WebShaman.

I don't have the time to dive back into this thread right now (which seems to have exploded while I wasn't looking), but I want to address something Bugs said:

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Bugimus said:

Suho, my concern would be that children would be diverted from a saving faith in God.

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When I made the statement that this quote refers to, I was replying to Gideon's concern that films which showed rebellion against authority would somehow have a negative effect on children--despite the fact that this theme has been with us for thousands of years.

I also think that, like you said, children are always going to have some form of parental guidance, one way or another, when they go to see films like this. I think maybe what Gideon was trying to say is that children who don't have Christian guidance might be (to use your words) diverted from a saving faith in God--but if they don't have Christian guidance they're not going to have that faith anyway.

But I'm talking in circles here. So much to say, so little actually said.

I will say one more thing, though: any claims about what happens to us when we die are ultimately claims of faith. You may have evidence to back those claims, but the truth is that we can't know for certain what will happen when we shuffle off this mortal coil. So, poi, while I admire your conviction, I don't think you can be one hundred percent certain that there is no afterlife. Just like I can't be one hundred percent certain that there is. I realize that you have a great disdain for "faith" and hate to see the word applied to your own worldview, but what else would you call something of which you can never have complete proof? Maybe a "belief," if "faith" grates too much on the ear?



(Confidential to WS: in "real life" I'm actually a hideous beast of a person. )
___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

(Edited by Suho1004 on 01-09-2008 10:26)

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I will say one more thing, though: any claims about what happens to us when we die are ultimately claims of faith. You may have evidence to back those claims, but the truth is that we can't know for certain what will happen when we shuffle off this mortal coil. So, poi, while I admire your conviction, I don't think you can be one hundred percent certain that there is no afterlife. Just like I can't be one hundred percent certain that there is. I realize that you have a great disdain for "faith" and hate to see the word applied to your own worldview, but what else would you call something of which you can never have complete proof? Maybe a "belief," if "faith" grates too much on the ear?

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This is of course true. However, there is no evidence that one can bring forth to support that there is an Afterlife. And if there is an Afterlife, it is a one-way street, because no-one is coming back announcing it.

Well, except for a few of us who have died, and came back...

Of course, was that really an Afterlife, or just a delusion of a dying brain?

Still stumbling over that "100% certainty". What is "hard evidence" in this case? And to be honest, I do not want to try to repeat it in the name of science

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(Confidential to WS: in "real life" I'm actually a hideous beast of a person. )

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I know that! Get back to the basement and up the voltage on those elektroshocks, maestro! The line of inmates waiting is getting longer...

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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Suho1004 said:

I will say one more thing, though: any claims about what happens to us when we die are ultimately claims of faith. You may have evidence to back those claims, but the truth is that we can't know for certain what will happen when we shuffle off this mortal coil. So, poi, while I admire your conviction, I don't think you can be one hundred percent certain that there is no afterlife. Just like I can't be one hundred percent certain that there is. I realize that you have a great disdain for "faith" and hate to see the word applied to your own worldview, but what else would you call something of which you can never have complete proof? Maybe a "belief," if "faith" grates too much on the ear?

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We've discussed this concept in a variety of contexts. It is popular to say that "belief" in evolution, for example, requires faith just like religion does.
It can be argued, semantically, that faith is present in both views. However, it's a lot like comparing a puddle to an ocean. Sure, they're both water...

The "faith" involved in concluding that, since their is no evidence (despite centuries of trying) that there is any sort of life after death, that there is not any life after death, is of a far different scale and variety than the faith involved in concluding that, if you live your life according to an ancient collection of stories (let's face it, regardless the value you place on those stories...it is an ancient collection of stories...), you will be sent to an eternal paradise filled with a variety of magical beings, streets paved with gold, hordes of virgins, or whatever your take on heaven may be

Surely you can see that ruling both ideas out as equally speculative is not quite accurate?

(Edited by DL-44 on 01-09-2008 15:09)

Nicely said, DL.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles