Lets get this started. There are people here that I trust after the years I have been reading them, the Asylum has lasted far longer then many other things in my life. But few to trust in other places. That is a small sadness but I put it aside in a well practiced manner.
A few months back in the summer I started listening to audio books. Friedrich Nietzsche makes sense to me in some ways. I'm combining him with Isaac Asimov.
At one point while sitting at my computer I said "I will change everything about myself and everything about me will change". I said it 3 times 3 times to begin it. I would not put it off any longer.
I have told my family, I would knife fight a Man, and here. Now I am committed. Said now to other three times.
I clean the house more often, or at least I tell myself I will.
I listen to the news, read newspapers, I have begun to save clippings from them, and I want to make the world a better place.
I will learn world history, economics, politics, and philosophy. Perhaps.
I have begun my over going and my down going. If I understand what that is. Will I be a herald to the lightening?
I will not fear for fear is the mind killer.
Never cry, never scream, never dream, never die.
It is by will alone that I set my mind in motion. Is that the will to power?
Knowledge is power.
More to come as I put my mind in order.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
I will keep almost everything.
But my desire for knowledge will be for knowledge that I can put to use.
But I will take action rather then just talking.
Complaining is usless if no actions are taken to solve the problem. Or more to my point I will not sit silent while I may be able to change things.
What I do do not want to lose is quiet conentment in the dark and silence. I like to take a moment and sit in the darkness and silence. Just being content with what I am and have.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
As a curious being... Believe me, I come from a background of low personal power.
And power is something that comes from inside, it is both the consequence of a conscious decision and a way to approach life
- so if knowledge is power, which is vastly arguable but partly true I think, then...
quote:
I will not fear for fear is the mind killer.
Never cry, never scream, never dream, never die.
Knowledge of the self means accepting limits to the self.
Emotions are okay.
Going through emotions is okay, it actually is great.
Dwelving into the negative emotions is destructive,
it drives oneself to fear, and to focusing only on the limits - rather than on...
The POWER to overcome those. And that power begins with - to wrap my thoughts up - the decision to overcome one's limits - yet the road takes time.
So welcome to this hard road that every human being out there walks, to a degree.
A few questions or you, argo navis, if you do not mind.
quote:I come from a background of low personal power.
Did you mention that because you felt it matched myself?
I disagree with much of what you have said, or at least the the way it seems to be, and I thank you for having responded.
Knowledge is one part of power. Ability and the means to enact what you know are others. Why would it ever come from just one place? its not what you know its who you know.
Your thoughts seem wrong to me. "Never cry, never scream, never dream, never die." is to kill the self and allow you to do what is needed. I have walked in circles for hours while waiting for someone repeating that to myself to kill my mind, my worry, and my fears that I had done wrong.
From the webcomic Natch evil, site currently being redesigned.
quote:I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
To look at your fear and understand it and then defeat it. Or is it the understanding that defeats it? No, I do not think that is is it. Understanding has no consistent connection to fear. It was written by Frank Herbert in his Dune novels.
Emotions are neither inherently okay nor destructive. Do you dwell on your hate and fear or do you force yourself forward with it? Do you become complacent in your love and happiness or do you build on it?
You can never overcome your limits. If you can over come it then it was not your limit.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
tj333, I am willing to help the best I can : I think asking proprer questions matters more than the answers you could get from me -
asking yourself the right questions will lead yourself to your own, and more accurate answers, in other words.
SO : don't take anything coming from me as "personal towards you" since I do not know you - of course, communication is based on response,
but here I am not responding to your identity - I am responding to words and ideas - no judgement, period.
Whatever Nietzsche, Frank Herbert, anyone have written is ideas, useful or not, they are questionable, and may only be applied
as much as they apply to your situation.
>> Understanding has no consistent connection to fear.
In my perception : personal weaknesses, everyone has, so they are ok.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accepting them is step 1)
Observing them is step 2)
Knowing where they stem from is step 3)
Then FACING the origin of those fears is step 4)
And all this should happen under the light of "it's ok" to keep the motivation and a clear, unique direction.
Then comes comparing those fears against reality. Real world example : if I am afraid of diving into water, will I really get hurt if I dive? Step 5)
...
The answer here is : diving first feels awkward... but then, gently, the body gets used to the water.
The temperature adjusts. And it turns into a wonderful experience. It turns into a lot of comfortable fun.
But then... when you get out of the water, sleep a night over it, and come to the swimming pool the next day, what happens?
The same thing allover again - this time knowing water will not kill you, still. And feeling the fear, still.
...Fear of water is rooted in our genes, not our minds, for our ancestors could not swim and would die easilly in water
- think fossile Lucy for one - so intellectualisation only works to an extent - and consciously fighting fear works to an extent.
In this situation, fear is part of a natural process, but the water feels so good THEN. And it is okay if the next day, the fear comes back in.
You cannot get rid of such fears completely.
And it just is ok as long as you let yourself enter the water, and feel the experience, with the fear - keeping the goal in mind while accepting the whole process,
and the fear that is part of it, THUS working around limits that, indeed, you cannot remove from your persona.
...
With time though, overcoming the fear of water may become a reflex, and to a large extent, compensate for the genetic programming.
I'm reading but not sure I'm following exactly what's going on. Maybe a few questions would help me understand better. These are only questions and not meant
What was wrong with the way you were before?
Once you decided to change, did you have a clear direction and purpose to guide the process?
If so, how did you decide it was a good direction to follow?
How did you come to choose Asimov, Nietzsche and Herbert as inputs?
Bugimus:
I just wasn't very happy with the way I was before. Or at least with the job I have. Then in reading about Ancient Greece and Nietzsche the philosophy I picked up from there were ones requiring more action then I currently do. "A man uninterested in politics is not merely apathetic but useless." And Nietzsche preaches the superman and preparing for his coming.
But is that wrong?
I want to create. I want to see things that I have made. Sitting around and playing PC games or fixing computers do not meet that need.
No clear direction or purpose. I still do not really know where I am going or if it will be a good thing. Part of this is looking for direction.
I did not choose Asimov but over the years of reading his work it has stuck with me. He is perhaps the strongest influence on my life.
Nietzsche is probably the only one that I have really chosen. I have listened to his works (Mostly audio books.) and decided to follow them for as long as they seemed usable.
Herbert has provided me with prayers. I have invested those words with more meaning they they have, the same with counting to 3 three times (First count is calming, 2nd is preparation, 3rd is action). Because of the geeky things I read online those litanies keep coming up again and again.
argo navis:
I'll respond to you later as time permits.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
But in the meantime : finding means is tightly connected to setting short and long term purposes,
and tightly related to litterature about self esteem (Nathaniel Branden for a name) - hence my jumping on the bandwagon - as I said I've been, and am, realizing myself
through the goals I have set.
>> Part of this is looking for direction.
You can DO that, anyone can.
Not based on input from outside : what do you truly enjoy doing, or what is it in what you do that you truely
enjoy? What kind of purpose would you love to accomplish?
If you can't figure out a big picture, break it into details :
- love
- work
- hobbies
- family
- friends
How do you see your actions being best rewarded in each one of these areas?
Eg. what does your dream love story? Six chicks at once? A happy marriage and ten kids?
What kinds of hobbies entertain you most? Etc...
The rant about jumping in the water can be summed up into this : "whatever you WANT from life, most of your obstacles are fears, and most of those fears probably are
self-limiting beliefs, so figure out the target, the point where you stand, the path, and go GRAB that thing you want".
I think your rant on the fear of water is bad evolutionary psychology. But, yes, that is besides the point. It is about facing a fear that you have.
The big picture is a better world. The detail is a better Canada. The means are not goals but knowledge. Or is knowledge the goals along my path?
I seem to reject anyhting that sounds like be happy and think positive and it will all work out. Ability/power is what will make it all work out.
Or to put it another way, self esteem and self realization are meaningless word. What has meaning is the knowledge about what I can do, but is that not self esteem and realization? Perhaps I should not dismiss those methods so readily.
Do I see myself as a tool for a task and nothing more? Yes, I think I do. I throw myself into what I have been told to do but do little to move myself. Until now. Now I recreate that tool by my own will. it is by will alone that I set my mind in motion.
I am uncertain about how that makes me feel. The realization has made me happy. But a sadness followed it. Is that proof that I have again set myself on an unsatisfactory life path and I do not want to admit it to myself. Or am I just falling prey to the idea (social pressure/examples that) that family and sex/children are happiness?
For I cannot see what it is that I lack to bring the sadness but family/girlfriend and sex/children come to mind.
On a side note:
My self questioning writing style shows that I am uncertain about what I think. Or is it just the thought that any extreme or monolithic idea has a high probability to be wrong?
So that i show the counter to my own idea within itself so that you can see what it is about.
quote:What kinds of hobbies entertain you most? Etc...
The ones where I build and create. Or is that power? The Will to Power that drives me?
Is my writing difficult to read and make some sense of? I know from comments in other places that my style can be hard to follow.
At first I was worried about the lack of responses here as compared to some other threads. But now I realize that I am questioning myself more then I am looking for input from others (And neither is this a hot button topic like evolution.). Not to say that I do not want you respond, question, or tell me about your own beliefs but that this thread seems to be serving it's purpose as is.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
>> I seem to reject anyhting that sounds like be happy and think positive and it will all work out.
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You SEEM to, well phrased ,) And knowing this from the start makes me persist : no matter how you respond, you do respond.
>> What has meaning is the knowledge about what I can do, but is that not self esteem and realization?
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No, it is not yet - knowing that the water does not kill does not remove the fear.
Conscious knowledge is not emotional knowledge : you can be aware of a talent you have, and misuse it. This is pseudo self-esteem
in Nathaniel Branden's objectivist theories. Ask Kant also.
>> I seem to reject anyhting that sounds like be happy and think positive and it will all work out.
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This is the consequence of a challenged self-image, visible from the many repetitions in your "style" : at some level, a happy
yourself is not what you want down inside because you are not familiar with that.
But you have come to a point where you must opt between the current pain and a path to resolution, so unfamiliar grounds are the only road.
You ARE unconsciously calling for some kick in the ass, which is why, you won't get any from me.
Clearly, this is the battle in you : the being who is starting to realize he deserves more, and the old you striving to exist in pain.
>> What kinds of hobbies entertain you most? Etc...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ones where I build and create.
>> I want to create. I want to see things that I have made.
This is part of your purposes. Congrats for having defined them through confusion, clearly, and several times.
Many people do not get to that point.
Well, to phrase it in technical terms, as much as I can : there is a conscious perception of the self (who am I in factual terms)
and a subconscious perception of the self.
You can easilly spot it in other persons by listening to their self talk : how do they *casually* refer to themselves?
Examples of this include "I am so stupid", "I sound wack", or positive comments, whatever *casually* slips into a conversation and refers to the self.
You can be aware, on a rational and conscious level, of being capable of something, but if this is not backed up by a deeper, and positive perception of yourself,
the "conscious" thought will tend to wander off... and back in when some accomplishment brings it back... and off.
Thus, to answer question 2 : a very intelligent person may "spread" his mental energy over complications of this kind if, on a subconscious level,
their "sense of selve deservednes" is not solid. Some call it "self esteem". Some call it "self image".
You can see Branden's theories play a major role in modern psychology, and psychology of self esteem.
(BUT the wikipedia page is vastly flawed : historically it is ok, but does not reflect the subtleties of Branden's theories).
Furthermore, here is a quote from a wonderful interpretation of Branden's thoughts,
a text that is a great inspiration to me :
quote:
What I had learned on my own was not in any of the books I had read. Over the next many years, I refined my understanding of why self esteem is so critically important to the health of a sexual relationship.
The most comprehensive discussion on self-esteem I have seen is by Nathaniel Branden at nathanielbranden.net. He articulated it well when he wrote: "Self-esteem is an experience. It is a particular way of experiencing the self. It is to move toward life rather than away from it; to move toward consciousness rather than away from it; to treat facts with respect rather than denial; and to operate self-responsibly rather than the opposite."
He defined self-esteem as "being competent to cope with the challenges of life and of being worthy of happiness. It is confidence in our ability to learn, make appropriate choices and decisions, and respond effectively to change. It is the experience that success, achievement, fulfillment, and happiness are right and natural for us. It is a consciousness to trust our self. It strives for rationality, coherence, clarity, and truth."
He defined six practices of a healthy self-esteem:
1) Living consciously: Respect for facts, open to new knowledge and feedback, and seeking to understand the world and ourselves.
2) Self-acceptance: Realism applied to self. The willingness to own, experience, and take responsibility for our thoughts, feelings, and actions, without evasion, denial, or disowning.
3) Self-responsibility: Realizing that we are the author of our choices and actions; that each one of us is responsible for life and well being and for the attainment of our goals.
4) Self-assertiveness: Being authentic in our dealings with others; treating our values and persons with decent respect in social contexts; refusing to fake the reality of who we are or what we esteem in order to avoid disapproval; the willingness to stand up for ourselves and our ideas in appropriate ways in appropriate contexts.
5) Living purposefully: Identifying our short-term and long-term goals or purposes and the actions needed to attain them.
6) Integrity: Living with congruence between what we know, what we profess, and what we do; telling the truth, honoring our commitments, exemplifying in action the values we profess to admire.
"What all these have in common is respect for reality."
I think I will have to learn more about self esteem in the manner you speak of it before I am willing to give it any real credence. But I will not ask you to write a book for me here.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
I've gone through some serious soul searching over the last 3 years and much of it relates to what's being discussed here. argo navis, the quote about self esteem definitely hits home with me. I believe one of the biggest problems I had was denying reality and constantly looking for escape from it. Once I began stepping up to living my life instead of riding in the back seat I saw improvments in my outlook.
As you both probably know I'm a strong believer in God and the christian faith. tj333, since you mentioned above that you don't mind us telling you about what we think I cannot stress strongly enough how important it is to realize we cannot do it alone. I believe wisdom begins with God. That does not mean that you put your brain on a shelf or stop looking for answers in science and reality, it simply means that it is the starting place for any sound philosophy of life.
Descartes searched for years for a foundation he could rely on and finally settled on "I think therefore I am". In that sense I decided a few years ago to start with "God is". So I have taken the approach of "believing in order to understand reality" rather than "understanding the world in order to believe".
So along with all of the learning about self esteem and how we behave socially and maintain some sense of purpose and peace I would ask you to consider sources from faith. Jesus was asked to summarize what God wanted from us and he put it like this,
quote:36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I've found that when I'm putting these commandments into practice my self-esteem and sense of well-being sky rockets. I've often wondered whether or not I'm in the right industry working in software. When I'm helping others and serving others things seem so much more meaningful.
quote: tj333 said:
Bugimus:
I just wasn't very happy with the way I was before. Or at least with the job I have. Then in reading about Ancient Greece and Nietzsche the philosophy I picked up from there were ones requiring more action then I currently do. "A man uninterested in politics is not merely apathetic but useless." And Nietzsche preaches the superman and preparing for his coming.
But is that wrong?
I want to create. I want to see things that I have made. Sitting around and playing PC games or fixing computers do not meet that need.
I wasn't very happy with the way I was 3 years ago and I was even more unhappy with my job. So I decided just recently that I had to stand up and take control of things. I cleaned up my act and got a much better job and that has helped me a lot. But not just because it's a better job but because I have an attitude based in reality instead of escape and/or simply letting things happen without my inputs.
Is it wrong to study Neitzsche? Not at all. It's very important to study and learn about as much as we can. But everyone that we read doesn't agree so there is also the reality of having to choose the philosophers and teachings that actually, and in reality, mirror the way this vast creation operates.
I share your love of creating and I had a similar realization a few years back about cutting back on the video gaming in favor of writing cool and interesting software. I believe the love of creating things is part of the spark of divinity within each of us.
I just wrote a bunch of stuff here without a lot of proof reading so I hope you don't mind I did a bit of rambling. I wanted to get my thoughts out on this while I could.
It all got quite personal, but this is not a problem as of now Group hug everyone, but don't do like Wakkos, keep your clothes on.
I don't say ojectivism and self esteem are the panacea, just that the above will ring bells in many persons heads.
@Bugimus
For self esteem : basically, when asking your question to *t, you displayed a lot of it naturally - educated guess : you were raised by two quite good parents
in a healthy way, essentially.
A perfect self esteem does not exist (Buddah or Christ, depends on your beliefs, or Gandhi, certainly not me) - but striving to improve it improves our
capacity to cope with the challenges of life for certain.
As for the belief in God :
"believing in order to understand reality" rather than "understanding the world in order to believe".
Is a nice way to phrase it.
Basically, I do not like to mix spiritual beliefs to more scientific theories, but what I think about a strong belief, is that it may help
define a sense of purpose, and may act as a motivator towards healthy relationships to the self and others.
But I've seen this drift, and low self esteem people look for answers they could not find for themselves in the divine, the church, or sects - hence trying to separate matters
as far as I am concerned.
Threads live and end naturally, let them run their course : I am glad you were not able to phrase it here because it means you are thinking,
just remember to keep those thoughts focused on purpose and backed up by action, and you should be fine - lots of fun to have in the warm water.
I have been thinking. I don't care about people I don't know. I listen to 7 athletes plus high school coach killed in traffic accident and I think "Why are they wasting my time with this?". After the third time that story was updated in 1.5 hours i yelled at my radio about it.
Hundreds of people die every day. They just don't matter to me.
These show a culture where people are afraid, hurt, and killed.
WHY? Why, does the world end up that way? How did we get here? How can people justify these things?
It is not that people die or are hurt, the individual is pointless. But the culture that creates a world where we deny or accept thousands being killed every year pisses me off to no end.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
Then you should wonder about What you can do to help prevent the downfall,
because the only thing we can learn to control is ourselves. It is impossible and counter productive to try and control others
or outer factors.
...The world got to this point because we didn't evolve from our tribal instincts as fast as our societies evolved,
and people lost their identity : they find themselves, most of them, striving to simply know who they are - thus, as you pointed out,
the most important factors causing these issues are fear and pain - more often that not quirks of PERCEPTION
without roots in reality (think about the story of water, which is a scientific fact rooted in behavioral theory and biolody - don't take my word for it,
see for yourself that we are programmed with some unconscious fears and motivators called "signals" or "stimulis" or "stimuluses" for an engrish form).
As for other people : Bugimus made it clear that he seconds many of my views on this topic of self esteem - I strongly recommend
you seek for answers in sociology and biology - and psychology, three topics that do explain a lot of what is personal and interpersonal,
and how much of the things that cause these fears are ILLUSIONS.
Illusion that a gangsta cannot be liked by a girl, inducing rape - never excusing it, but..
The illusion that one cannot be accepted in society without (money, education, you name it), causes sorrow, depression, and favors criminal behavior.
The illusion that possession defines an individual causes "bragging and nagging" and plain relationship quirks - it also causes jealousy and unfair practices
in competition.
The illusion we are not worthy of what we desire tends to materialize itself - thus, a deep (and difficult)
internal shift in perception tends to materialize happiness, as unlikely as it may seem.
I disagree with you.
If you can only contrl yourself then you can influence large amounts of people.
I never pointed out that fear and pain caused any of that.
Little to none of the research I have read supports your claims though the narrow area you talk about makes it possible it just hasn't come up yet.
Happiness as a choice? Yes and no. To reduce something to one influence is too simplistic.
To call such things illusions as you do is to make them seem smaller then they really are. But I would venture to say that either illusions have great power or that many other people looking at them see them as a great deal more then they are.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
Not formally - more advanced concepts in this thread are based on personal experience - but this experience is based itself
on the various areas I mentionned and solid facts - one more : Montherlant, co-inventor of democracy along other bright french minds,
wrote down a "schema" for structuring societies which implied some astounding things about self esteem -
Get yourself some translation of the "troglodytes" passage, might be called "cave diggers" in english, from Persian Letters
But many, many, many areas converge towards these conclusions, and myself have based my observations on many readings
in diverse areas, coupled with personal and professional experiences I won't expose here - many travels (and observation of behavioral patterns
automatic on all continents in all populations) for one.
But I'll leave some room for the old timers to express themselves - I have applied what I mention here to transform my life in many ways, towards personal success
and achievement of my purposes.
Am a young entrepreneur who doubled his salary within three years, is about to double it once again, and switched from years as a support agent to being a developer
for large companies, and an expert consultant in various areas related, mostly, to database design and implementation.
...
I wasn't anywhere to being that a few years ago. I am happy, and I can see things I create - and wish you the same.
If you find troglodytes to have any great relevance to this thread then you viewed it far differently then I have.
But that we view many things differently is evident through the entire thread. My apologies for having offended you, I did not mean to.
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Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
An interesting description of the middle ages (Western Europe starting around 1000) was that the Catholic Church and monarchies were imperfect institutions that while not overly effective created the base for more effective ones to take their place. Their failings allowed them to be taken over afterwards by more effective institutions but for the time they were needed.
That view is biased by viewing history as an inevitable march towards an end point, but not without merit. Today our better institutions will be harder to replace since they have less obvious/damaging faults.
But they need to be replaced just as badly.
2nd lesson - Things do not need to be perfect to improve on what has come before.
3rd lesson - You can pay for those imperfections for generations afterwards.
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
No offense taken - and the divergences are the interesting part of any conversation, agreeing on everything gets boring.
There is a relationship between troglodytes and other points discussed here,
in terms of how some members of a species, by not taking responsibilities - by willingly denying responsibility to themselves and "not caring that much"
- elect themselves for lower level duties whitin a given society. It's an important element of the metaphor.
Tranposed to the context of personal success, it seconds the fact that success is a choice at some deep level :
a choice of taking ownership and responsibility of our interactions with others to a larger extent.
But I am running out of time to debate it - maybe when another, proper opportunity comes, as I still have much to say.
Just don't have the time to expand on it right now and in the next days.
The # is used to indicate mental communication, chosen since it is found on every typewriter. It is little used outside sci-fi novels. Here its what I have been thinking. Or so I have heard.
#You can make this all stop.#
#Why ARE YOU DOING THIS TO US?#
#Nobody and ... . Stop that!!#
#mAKE IT STOP! yOU CAN DO IT!#
#No. Why?!#
#It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. BY WILL ALONE!!!#
Its been a tough evening, #can't you tell#. But I think it has ended on a positive note. I think its been 2 years since I first thought about making this thread. That a while to be thinking about posting something on the Asylum.
#You won't make us do this.#
How many years have I been referring to myself as us?
__________________________
Eagles get sucked into jet engines and weasels are oft maligned, but beavers just make nice hats. WCG|FA@H
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 01-20-2008 07:00
I would like to point out here that much of our fate is not determined by us.
Quote from Gladiator that I like:
quote:Ultimately, we're all dead men, sadly we cannot choose how, BUT we can decide how we meet that end in order that we are remembered as men.
From Proximo. I think it is something to keep in mind...I find it hard to change our selves, our behaviors, and our habits. However, we can change how we approach them. Attitude is something we can definitely change. :-)
posted 12-21-2007 05:56
Group hug everyone, but don't do like Wakkos, keep your clothes on.