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Obama Wins! Men & Race Superior To Women.

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Your Text: Insert Slimies » Insert UBB Code » Close Last Tag \| All Tags UBB Help	[quote]Bugs: That being said, I think you're all full of ***!!![/quote] You are certainly entitled to that opinion. ;) In all honestly, and what is sad to me is that I know you to be an intelligent and clear-headed individual. I know your heart is in the right place and it is my opinion that you are simply being taken for a ride, the same ride that I and many American's were taken on as they awoke to politics and world events following the events of 9/11. I can personally attest that in my pride and ignorance it became more about being right than anything else, and that was so utterly transparent in the threads from 4 years ago. I do not think this is the case with you, you were eons ahead of where I was in your understanding of the historical and psychological elements at play here, which is why I cannot understand at all how you can still be in support of our government's actions in this so-called WOT. To be honest, I did not think there were many left who did hold this view, but I sometimes fail to recognize that roughly 30% of Americans are still buying it since out of all the people I know IRL, there are only one or two holdouts and I have considered them to be anomalies. ;) [quote]Bugs: I agree with this for the most part. I think it is critical* that we understand why we were attacked. Only then can we form an appropriate response.[/quote] Do we truly understand why we were attacked? I don't think the majority of us entirely grasp what is going on here, or push this aside as a method of rationalization for our actions, which under any other context would be considered imperialistic and just plain wrong. As far as appropriate response, again, more of the same is only making matters worse. I am simply putting forth the notion, and I am sorry to reiterate here but I see this as key, that the reasons for which we were attacked have less to do with religion -- which is simply part of the human rationalization process -- and a disconnect in world views and more to do with the fact that we have been involved in or directory responsible for the deaths of millions of Arabs and Persians and the oppression of millions of others in that region over the last half a century, and what we have now is the backlash of those who suffered those atrocities using a tactic that people filled with a deep-seeded hatred and desperation use. I ask you to honestly step back for a few moments and put yourself in the place of those whom we attack. I am not talking about "terrorists" nor extremists here, but the millions of other people our actions affect. What if an outside force invaded us, dropped cluster bombs in your neighborhood, and was ultimately responsible for the death of your wife and children, the destruction of your home, and everything else you hold dear? Furthermore, what if after these bombings you were then told by the attackers that you were being "liberated" and they were bringing "democracy and freedom"? Pretty hypocritical, yeah? What would that "liberation" mean in light of the fact that everything you had to live for had been destroyed? How would you react? Would you become radicalized and would you not over time rationalize to yourself that a reaction to such a perceived injustice was warranted? Now play the same scenario back, but only this time one of your children survives. Would their views likely be even more powerfully extremist than yours? Perhaps you are different in this respect, and if so you are a stronger person that most, but I can guarantee you that others in your neighborhood would not balk at reacting, many in a violent fashion. And the children that remained whose parents were killed would be raised in an environment that would then hand these hatreds and views off to them. Honestly think about that scenario and know that this has happened to people, individuals and families and communities who love one another, in that region for many years on our dime. The orphans of today will be tomorrow's "terrorists". They are not going to remember the great American soldiers who brought freedom to their land, they are going to remember the American soldiers and munitions that killed their parents, family members and friend and left them afraid, homeless, hungry and alone. They will be shaped by this. I am sorry to even bring family into this in such a way, but this is what we are dealing with here IMO, more so than any religious or world views. It all comes down to individual people, not groups of people that we can easily label and categorize. Again, I do not condone what those who have attacked us in the past do, nor even think their specific actions or tactics were justified (although there are many who do) but a slice of empathy is required to understand their actions beyond the rhetorical or religious reasons you cite. I would continue to stress that the extremism has very little to do with the religion or the fact that they have never had a reformation type event (there are millions of Muslims worldwide who peacefully coexist with us "infidels"), but ultimately stems from years of perceived oppression and murder by the United States and the western world which brought about extremism and the integration of said religion into that mindset. There are plenty of other western nations that are not attacked, so what makes us the main target of these extremists? We were not always referred to as "The Great Satan" so what brought about this change in perception in the post-WWII Arab world? To me it all boils down to the above. I tend to hold the view that OBL (if he is still even alive) and others like him are simply using religion as a means to an end. That end is driving out those who would oppress and hold back the Arab peoples of the region. Does their idea of an Arab world ruled by Sharia law seem all that nice? No, but once the reasons for extremism are removed, they would become increasingly irrelevant, and their societies would eventually progress past these things and when they are ready culturally, they will have their freedom. That freedom will not be forced, to try and do so is insane. The religious aspect is also stressed in our media and entertainment endlessly while the facts of our prolonged interventionism in the region are downplayed, if ever brought up at all. The main reasons for the attacks of 9/11, as even documented by the 9/11 commission that Bush fought for 2 years, have nothing to do with religion, but with our interference in the region. Why can you and our president not see this? From the enemy's own lips: [i]"U.S. military forces in the Persian gulf area, most notably Saudi Arabia, U.S. support of corrupt Middle Eastern countries, U.S. support for Israel?s brutal occupation and the ongoing assault on civilians in Iraq." --OBL[/i] I do understand the historical context I think, and what I primarily see is a people who have known nothing but perpetual fighting, invasion and occupation for over a millennium, one upheaval after another from the original split of Islam up to the present day curse of having the largest oil reserves in the world, and the culture that was born out of this strife knows nothing else. So again, more of the same is not the answer. The healing of the region, on an individual and cultural level, needs to begin sometime, because to me this is the only way things will ever change. [quote]Bugs: Ramasax pointed out that the people of the ME are human beings and I believe that all human beings respond ultimately to the idea of living in a free society.[/quote] And just how are we promoting freedom in that region? Through war? Bombing? Torture? Sanctions? Through inflammatory rhetoric which only solidifies the influence that those who would keep he ME in chains have? By supporting the house of Saud? By bringing to power and supporting the Ba'athists in Iraq, the Shah of Iran, Colonel Za'im in Syria? By giving billions to the Mujihideen without thinking through what that would mean in the future. If we truly wanted to bring an "enlightenment" to the region, I can think of a thousand better ways to go about it. I've always known you to be a person of high integrity and you also have demonstrated a faith that is strong. A faith that says to do no harm, a message of love and peace and forgiveness. So where in that message is the condoning of torture, the bombing of innocent civilians, the illegal invasion of sovereign nations, the undermining of the right of peoples to decide their own path and leaders? And what does any of this have to do with freedom? The ends do not justify the means. I don't expect you to say "yeah, you guys are right, I have seen the light," but all I am asking for you to do is seriously reconsider your views in an honest fashion, put yourself in the shoes of those you perceive to be the enemy if you really want to understand them. What we have done and are doing is wrong -- morally and ethically by any standards -- and more of the same will perpetuate this division for generations to come. We are laying the groundwork for the history of the 21st century, and from where I am standing, things are looking rather grim, for us most of all. We will fall eventually under the weight of our own imperialistic motives. And when the printing presses that print our fiat dollars stop printing due to hyper-inflationary cascade, look out. Who then will help us in our time of need when our sins are considered? Please, just think about it. Ram [small](Edited by [url=http://www.ozoneasylum.com/user/1866]Ramasax[/url] on 05-24-2008 22:23)[/small] Loading...
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