Obama Wins! Men & Race Superior To Women. — OZONE Asylum, home of the Mad Scientists

Philosophy and other Silliness

Obama Wins! Men & Race Superior To Women.

This page's ID: 30279

Edit Post

Who can edit a post?	The poster and administrators may edit a post. The poster can only edit it for a short while after the initial post.

Your User Name:
Your Password:
Login Options:	Remember Me On This Computer

Your Text: Insert Slimies » Insert UBB Code » Close Last Tag \| All Tags UBB Help	Before I get back into things, first, sorry for the delay in responding Bugs, familial obligations. Secondly, I wanted echo what has been said above. This has been an enjoyable conversation. We've had an open dialog, we've all made each other think, and we have planted seeds that may or may not sprout in the future. It does not matter if in the end we come away still in disagreement, we had the conversation, and that will do just fine for me. And anyways, there is still hope for you yet. ;) [quote]But their motivations have to be understood within the context of their world view and to say that radical Islam's religion is not a major motivating factor really misses the boat. We've got to jettison this idea of religion as some pie-in-the-sky masturbatory exercise and acknowledge its very real and major impact on people's lives and day to day actions. I would ask that you consider the possibility your own discomfort with religion may be shielding you from seeing how important it is to people like UBL.[/quote] Sure, religion does have a large impact on people's lives, but without the extremism spawned by oppressive regimes, in this case enabled in large part by outside forces, IMO the religion would progress past this. Again, I believe religions are shaped by the societies and cultures they reside in, and since we have played a large part in trying to shape their society, by proxy and directly, we have played a part in shaping their religion or at least interpretation of it, and the fact that their religion is now used as a tool and justification to attack us. Extremist religion is a byproduct of extremist views cultivated by prolonged oppression, which is at the very root of it all. Separate the religion from the extremism. Not sure if that makes sense but at the moment I can think of no better/other way to articulate it. As far as my possible discomfort with religion, well, that is an entirely different and likely equally complex conversation. :) [quote]Bugs: Are you saying that freedom comes free of charge? Can you show any time in known history when the freedoms you and I enjoy emerged without significant sacrifice? I'll definitely require several examples of this if I'm to be persuaded on that point.[/quote] No, I am not saying freedom is free. If it were, it wouldn't be worth having. I can cite no examples of a people achieving a free society without significant sacrifice because there are none that I know of. However, I cannot cite any examples in history where a people's freedom -- on an individual , a cultural , and a psychological level -- was imposed from the outside, without welcome, through force of arms, either. This is invasion, not liberation, and no matter what label we give it or what rhetoric we wrap it in, the people on the receiving end are going to see it as such. That was the point I was attempting to make above. [i]"The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within."[/i] I'm sure you recognize that. This is probably one of the most overused quotes ever, but I believe it to be true based on my mental model of history. The [i]spirit[/i] of democracy. The fire in a civilization that drives a people to make the necessary sacrifices and achieve eventual autonomy. Individual, cultural, psychological. It is a rare thing that all these elements coalesce at the right time and under the right circumstances. You can install all the "elected" governments you want by force, put in all the voting booths that you want, and show off all the purple fingers you want, but if the fire is not there... The fire in the Middle East is not there, at least not under the terms in which we are trying to deliver it. If anything, there is an oppositional fire that is growing against an outside invasive force, only the fire is being channeled in the wrong direction to hardline nationalism and to those who would use it for their own ends, religious or otherwise. The more timber you throw at that dynamic, the larger it will get. If we are truly trying to bring freedom and democracy to the region, we are going about it in the wrong way. You cannot force a people to change, but you can talk and trade with them on an equal ground, and over time change will come naturally as a trust is built between our civilizations. As I said above, this would be a long and challenging process, not easy at all, but the alternative of an endless war on terror is going to do long-term harm to all involved parties. Aside from this, for the record, I believe it to be inaccurate in thinking that we even have the track record for spreading freedom and democracy, that we somehow have a foothold in this area or the moral high-ground as it is often called. That is often how we paint ourselves, but our actions in modern times speak a different language, the language of imperialism. And quite frankly, it seems to me rather hypocritical. As we are claiming to spread freedom around the world we are losing and taking for granted many of these freedoms right here at home. As militarism and ignorant arrogance, coupled with a spoiled consumerism, pervade our culture, our fire is waning. Lastly, this is all assuming that freedom is some easily definable parameter in the first place, which it is not. ;) [quote]You say my heart is in the right place and I believe yours is too. We clearly disagree on how to achieve healing.[/quote] Right, and that really cuts to the crux of it all, doesn't it? We can throw facts and historical examples at each other forever, and still come to different conclusions. Our disconnect is somewhere deep at the fundamental level. Our houses are built on different foundations and to be honest I am not quite sure what else either of us can say on the matter to rectify the differences. I already feel like I am simply re-articulating the same things over and over. I am sure you feel the same. All I can do now is ask you to consider what I have said and offer more resources for you to explore further. I will of course keep what you have said in mind as well. If interested in further resources, I would be more than happy to create a package for you consisting of various documentaries and/or create a list of reading materials. I find they are a great jumping off point into many of the issues that we have discussed here. From there you could explore as you will. Let me know. Ram [small](Edited by [url=http://www.ozoneasylum.com/user/1866]Ramasax[/url] on 05-27-2008 01:29)[/small] Loading...
Options:	Enable Slimies Enable Linkwords

« Backwards — Onwards »

Show Forum Drop Down Menu