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Obama Wins! Men & Race Superior To Women.

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Your Text: Insert Slimies » Insert UBB Code » Close Last Tag \| All Tags UBB Help	[quote] [b]Ramasax said:[/b] Extremist religion is a byproduct of extremist views cultivated by prolonged oppression, which is at the very root of it all. [/quote] Ok, this is a key statment because it is a foundational concept that you hold not based on facts but rather based on your understanding of how the world works. This really gets down to the question of why people do evil things in the name of religion (or ideologies in general). While I do not deny that oppression over many many years plays its part I do not believe it is at the root of the problem. Just ask yourself this. If oppression and/or poverty is the root cause of this hatred, why were all of the 9/11 attackers from affluent families and well educated? What motivates suicide bombers from middle-class lifestyles with wives and children at home? I see these facts and think to myself there has to be a deeper answer to the root of the hatred. Your point about freedom and democracy not taking root unless it is desired from within is extremely well taken and I agree wholeheartedly with it. I am not willing to accept, however, that the people's of the ME are not ready for it. Forgive me for saying this but to me that position smacks of elitism at best and downright bigotry at worst. (I'm not saying you're a bigot!!!) Transforming the ME is not a task that comes without significant risk and uncertainty. I believe the only way we can know is to continue to strive for the ideals as best we can because I believe the radical elements in the region have far too much momentum to be stopped without outside intervention. As far as an example of imposed freedom, or at least imposed anti-extremism, I would cite Turkey. The radical elements of Islam were simply outlawed by a strong-arm government and now it is one of the only moderate countries in the region. I would consider that approach far from ideal but the results today are clear to see. [quote] [b]Ramasax said:[/b] If anything, there is an oppositional fire that is growing against an outside invasive force [/quote] While I certainly agree that the radical elements have used our presence as a successful rallying call I cannot agree that this is true across the board. I don't know if you've been keeping up with the latest happenings in Iraq but there are extremely positive signs of the people working with our forces to root out the terrorist elements. Anbar province was the first very significant shift in that direction shortly after the surge was implemented. We are actually at a turning point in Iraq as much as I know that dismays some of the extreme leftists (not that you're one of those!). And this does not mean by any stretch that this is a permanent trend, of course, but the current situation is really looking good. The Iraqi army is starting to prove they can succeed on their own with US forces acting only as backup. This was evidenced by their recent success in quelling the radical Shiite militias in the South. All the while people have been talking about all the things we've broken in Iraq they've seemed to forget how broken it was after decades of brutal dictatorship. Also all the while our military has been busy taking down the dictatorship and fighting the terrorists who came in to fill the void, our civilian efforts have been busy building schools, power plants and infrastructure. The hard work of building a relationship between our civilizations is happening right now. It is not a theory but an ongoing reality day in and day out. For every car bomb you see on the news I can point to 5 other successes happening in the neighborhoods of Iraq that will never make the nightly news. These are the kinds of things that will, and are, building trust over many years. [quote] [b]Ramasax said:[/b] Aside from this, for the record, I believe it to be inaccurate in thinking that we even have the track record for spreading freedom and democracy, that we somehow have a foothold in this area or the moral high-ground as it is often called. That is often how we paint ourselves, but our actions in modern times speak a different language, the language of imperialism. [/quote] Actually, I didn't say we did have a good track record :) I think we have a very poor track record in many respects. I believe our history is colored by our unique view of the world as Americans. We tend to believe in "fairness" and "live and let live". So we'll poke our heads in here and there and do a little bit of good or some bad, get tired of the overall mission and bug out. I think our biggest failing is our lack of attention span. Now the imperialism charge is one that really perplexes me. Instead of me getting all hot under the collar on that, I'm gonna ask you to provide me some examples of our imperialism in the last 60-70 years. I certainly do not think our invasion of Iraq counts by the way. If it were so then all the claims of us only going in just for the oil revenue would have been born out. I'm not claiming our oil interests are not part of the equation but whether you agree with it or not we are in there for largely ideological reasons in an effort to begin a transformation of the ME. [quote] [b]Ramasax said:[/b] Our disconnect is somewhere deep at the fundamental level. Our houses are built on different foundations and to be honest I am not quite sure what else either of us can say on the matter to rectify the differences. [/quote] Well said and it actually pleases me to hear you recognize that our differences do come as a result of our different foundational assumptions about life. Ram, I am not here to change you or anyone else here. This has been said countless times over the life of the Asylum and it never wears out: we are here to share our ideas and thoughts with one another. We let the ideas roam freely in our hallways and allow the inmates to decide which ones have the greater merit. What I want most is to be heard and understood by my friends here as I try my best to see from their views as well. To me what we do here is a daily example of one of the pillars of our [i]freedom [/i]that I know we both cherish. . . . : [url=http://www.bugimus.com][img]http://www.bugimus.com/sigs/small-sig1.gif[/img][/url] : . . [url=http://www.bugimus.com/]Innervating Your Eyes & Mind[/url] : . . . [edit]fixed some grammar[/edit] [small](Edited by [url=http://www.ozoneasylum.com/user/16]Bugimus[/url] on 06-03-2008 19:46)[/small] Loading...
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