Topic awaiting preservation: History of Christmas

I found this link... Thought you guys would enjoy it: http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/ -- saw the show on this too. Good stuff.

Thanks, that's pretty interesting, especially the stuff about how
Christ was actually probably born in the spring, not in the winter.


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Yes =) The idea of 'christmas' being a christian holiday is really quite silly =) I missed the show, but a very enjoyable (if very abridged) link.

Most of the traditions of christmas are totally unrelated to christ and christianity, which is one of the many reasons I enjoy the holiday so much.
I've also always enjoyed the fact that the date has nothing at all to do with Jesus' actual date of birth, GN.

For a christian, IMO, I would think Easter (which is also rife with non-christian traditions, including its name!) would be a far more important holiday than christmas...

If you back up a step in the URL, there is also some good info on Hanuhkah and Kwanzaa

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-18-2003).]

all you christians out there should know this, if you don't already
Warning: Bible study
Christmas

outcydr, I generally agree with the author's approach. Many Xians assume a great many things about Xmas as it relates to Xianity. Many of those assumptions are simply wrong. Let the facts be known and then let us go from there.

When I first learned of the pagan roots of many of the Christmas traditions, I took the stance that it had NO place in the church. I pissed and moaned when our church put up Christmas lights and garland and decorated the auditorium with poinsettias. I thought it was totally wrong to do that since those were all pagan symbols.

But then I took on a very different understanding of the faith. The core point of Xianity is DBR, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is the mission and purpose of the church? It is to get the word out to all peoples that there is a risen savior and no longer any need to die in our sins. Period.

How Xians view the celebration of Christmas should completely hinge on whether it furthers that mission and purpose.

DL,

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The idea of 'christmas' being a christian holiday is really quite silly.

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Let me qualify it by saying that the idea that it has always been and was a completely new Christian invention is very silly indeed. Christmas is and is not a Christian holiday. It depends on who you ask and how many people view it as such and what time period we are discussing. We've covered this before and I think we've agreed that the Church coopted many of the holiday traditions of the peoples it converted to Xianize their cultures. Why destroy such a wonderful time of celebration during any year simply because you have accepted a new religious belief? As long as the traditions do not contradict your new beliefs, then I don't see any problem there.

Symbolically Easter is a much more significant holiday for the church. And the exact same rule applies about how it is used. Last year at our church, for instance, we had an Easter Bunny for the kids. One of the members complained about this because of the pagan roots of the bunny. But hardly anyone in our area and certainly not the kids knew, or cared, about those roots. In fact, the Easter Bunny in this country is hardly anymore pagan than Winnie the Pooh. So we used the bunny outfit to give the children a very fun experience at church that day and nothing more. There was no harm and no problem from a biblical point of view in doing this. We want as many people as we can get into church so they can be exposed to the word of God on a regular basis. The more they are, the more chance that it will work on their hearts and in turn allow them to share it with others.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 12-18-2003).]

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Why destroy such a wonderful time of celebration during any year simply because you have accepted a new religious belief?

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Well sure.

But why make a false pretense for continuing to celebrate that imte of year, rather than simply letting people celebrate that time of year because they always have?

And, going back to an earlier discussion, why get upset when the term "holiday" is used in place of "christmas", when this tim eof year has been celebrated under many different names for a multitiude of centuries? Why be upset over the commercialization of a "christian" holiday that isn't even really a christian holiday?

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But hardly anyone in our area and certainly not the kids knew, or cared, about those roots

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And that, IMO, is simply wrong. I think if you're going to make a celebration of a holiday for specific reasons, then those reasons should be understood. It seems like bribery to me

Thanks for the link! always wanted to know the truth...
If you click on "traditions" link, see Ukraine this is how I spend most of my christmas holidays, it was quite a blast when I was a kid, we get a huge table and prepare 12 different dished and I would always look out for first star to appear before we all could eat...

if anyone wondering why 12, well I was told its related to 12 apostles..

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But why make a false pretense for continuing to celebrate that imte of year, rather than simply letting people celebrate that time of year because they always have?

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I don't understand, what false pretense?

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...why get upset when the term "holiday" is used in place of "christmas", when this tim eof year has been celebrated under many different names for a multitiude of centuries? Why be upset over the commercialization of a "christian" holiday that isn't even really a christian holiday?

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I've been meaning to get back to that thread Simply, because Christmas *is* a Christian holiday... and it's not.

In this country and most of Europe it has been primarily a Christian holiday, for centuries. But as you say it is increasingly become secular. I am upset with corporate America pandering to political correctness by banning any mention of Christmas parties. I am not opposed to "holiday" parties as such. But we should not *prevent* and *censor* those of us who want to celebrate Christmas in the work place just because it isn't the only holiday celebrated at this time of year. We should have Christmas parties, Kwaanza parties, Winter Solstice parties, etc. You can even lump it all under a "holiday" banner if you have a Kwaanza/Christmas party but do NOT ban the word Christmas and all of its gorgeous trimmings just because it's the celebration of the current majority. That is why it bothers me.

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And that, IMO, is simply wrong. I think if you're going to make a celebration of a holiday for specific reasons, then those reasons should be understood. It seems like bribery to me

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The reason we celebrate the resurrection that time of year is because it fits in with our culture and we use that as an opportunity to enlighten people about the truth. The distinctions between pagan and christian roots are taught in our church. Full disclosure.

The bribery thing, well, I can certainly understand why you would feel that way. I was uncomfortable with some of the things we do too. UNTIL the priority I explained above became clearer to me. We want people in the church so that they have an opportunity to be exposed to the gospel. This means that we will do just about anything, short of sin, to accomplish this. I know you won't agree with this, but do you understand that given the mission and purpose I described above, how "bribing" people to come to church is right and proper from our perspective?

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 12-18-2003).]

Considering the fact that so many cultures celebrate the Christmas/Solstice season one way or another, and, for the most part, the general meaning (peace on earth, good will towards men) is a common factor in many of those celebrations, what does it matter which religion "claims" the holiday as its own?

Let's just refer to it as "The Holidays" and let everyone celebrate it how they will, and just love each other anyway...

For Bugs and other Xians, the holiday represents the birth of their Lord and Saviour, in addition to all the above-mentioned "Peace on Earth" bit. For the Wiccans and Pagans among us, it's the Solstice, which is the time in the Wheel of the Year that the Light comes back into our lives. There's far too much dickering about dogma and ritual against all the rampant obligatory gift giving and commercialism of the holiday... Let's just enjoy the fact that this year is ending and another one is getting ready to begin! That's what "The Holidays" mean to me!

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I don't understand, what false pretense?

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The false pretense that it is now "jesus' birthday" as opposed to whatever other cause for celebration the people had.

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In this country and most of Europe it has been primarily a Christian holiday, for centuries.

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I have to disagree. I think the link provided helps support my thoughts that it has, infact, not been.

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But we should not *prevent* and *censor* those of us who want to celebrate Christmas in the work place just because it isn't the only holiday celebrated at this time of year.

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Fair enough - I agree with that.

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but do you understand that given the mission and purpose I described above, how "bribing" people to come to church is right and proper from our perspective?

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Yes, I can. It just doesn't sit well with me. I won't say it's "wrong"...I just don't like it =)

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The false pretense that it is now "jesus' birthday" as opposed to whatever other cause for celebration the people had.

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Oh that

I have no problem with making it clear to all that Christ was not born on December 25. I don't think this justifies switching celebration dates though. From my personal perspective, Christmas is a *completely* optional thing. I celebrate it because I love it. If we cancelled it tomorrow because no one wanted to celebrate it... I would still do so and not lose any sleep.

I think I should make this point very clear before going any further. I agree with you, DL and bodhi23, that there are a great number of people who make Christmas far more important than it is. I will go so far as to say that some make Christmas more important than God's will, which is far more serious than anything that happens to the way we as a country regard Christmas celebrations. They seem to think that their Xianity, or some similar variant belief, depends on whether the country accepts this as a completely-100%-from-day-one-Christian-affair. They are WRONG about that. I DO NOT represent them. My views are what I am telling you in these posts. In another setting where the views your complaining about dominate, I would be railing against them.

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I have to disagree. I think the link provided helps support my thoughts that it has, infact, not been.

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Many centuries *before* the advent of Christ the converse was true. But for the centuries since the Xianization of Europe, I think it can be regarded as primarily Xian. Any further discussion on this particular point will require me to brush up on my history

But anyway, Europe is abandoning Christianity in droves, and for all I know NeoPaganism may make a come back after or during the "great secularization" that has begun. When that happens and is sustained for a while, we'll be referring to Xmas (or whatever name is adopted) from that perspective. But all through that people like me will be celebrating it for what we have made it.

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Yes, I can. It just doesn't sit well with me. I won't say it's "wrong"...I just don't like it =)

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I know you well enough now that I can empathize. And it pleases me greatly to know that you can do the same with someone with a very different set of core life assumptions.

. . : slicePuzzle

I think that, in regard to the christianization of the holiday in europe, it was - and is - a primarliy nominal issue.

There have been phases of course, where things would turn more christian/less christian, as the political powers of the moment changed allegiances, etc.

But even when the puritans were gaining control, and banning anything in life that was enjoyable or fun, the popular opinion was still otherwise for the most part.

By and large, the peasants will celebrate their holiday regardless of the official stance of the ruling class. They can call it christmas, solstice, yule, or whatever else you want, it meant the same to them.

Now, I still call it christmas, because, quite simply, that's what it's always been called for me. The name is unimportant, it's the sentiment that counts, as we all seem to be saying in one way or another =)

I guess I enjoy the non-christian aspects of it so much partly because I've had the hardline christian stance shoved down my throat so many times, by people who are so vastly ignorant of any sort of reality.
Mostly though, simply because it is truly a non-denominational time of celebration.

Happy Chanukah, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Winter Solstice and whatever else, why can't everyone celebrate it as they believe? I don't understand all the controversy that has to surround a time that in the end, regardless of your beliefs, is a time of celebration and happiness.

quotes form bugimus

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Symbolically Easter is a much more significant holiday for the church. And the exact same rule applies about how it is used. Last year at our church, for instance, we had an Easter Bunny for the kids. One of the members complained about this because of the pagan roots of the bunny. But hardly anyone in our area and certainly not the kids knew, or cared, about those roots. In fact, the Easter Bunny in this country is hardly anymore pagan than Winnie the Pooh. So we used the bunny outfit to give the children a very fun experience at church that day and nothing more. There was no harm and no problem from a biblical point of view in doing this. We want as many people as we can get into church so they can be exposed to the word of God on a regular basis. The more they are, the more chance that it will work on their hearts and in turn allow them to share it with others.

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The reason we celebrate the resurrection that time of year is because it fits in with our culture and we use that as an opportunity to enlighten people about the truth. The distinctions between pagan and christian roots are taught in our church. Full disclosure.

The bribery thing, well, I can certainly understand why you would feel that way. I was uncomfortable with some of the things we do too. UNTIL the priority I explained above became clearer to me. We want people in the church so that they have an opportunity to be exposed to the gospel. This means that we will do just about anything, short of sin, to accomplish this. I know you won't agree with this, but do you understand that given the mission and purpose I described above, how "bribing" people to come to church is right and proper from our perspective?

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tsk,tsk,tsk.
sorry bugs, i'm going to have to call you down on this. imho this is representative of the "christian" attitude that confuses and turns people away from the truth.

the word Easter in the bible is a gross error on the part of the translator. it should be pascal or passover. it is the most sacred of occasions and THE one that christ specifically asked us to do in remembrance of him. (edits out some strong words) the church is no place for the easter bunny. i could say more, but this thread is not the place or time.

this is the season for sharing and giving. (you shouln't have to bribe or force someone to recieve what you offer. if they refuse, jolly good for them. i'll just continue merrily on my way.) to each his own. Merry Christmas everybody!!

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I don't understand all the controversy

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Just curious - are you talking in general, in the world? Or are you somehow mistaking our discussion here as controversy?

Great stuff, outcydr. Perhaps we should take it up in Philosophy and Silliness? You've really got me eager to hash this one out with yas

. . : slicePuzzle

Well if this gets moved over to sophistry forum I would hope the saddam 2 thread can follow it over there.

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Or are you somehow mistaking our discussion here as controversy?

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Just talking in general.