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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 10-31-2003 18:04

As far as I can tell, Maskkkk is simply stating he believes the Orthodox churches are the true church. Ok.

Jade thinks the RC is and I don't think there is such a thing as an unbroken line of succession from the earliest of saints. Not in an apostalic succession view anyways. I'm sure there is an unbroken line of believers and followers of Jesus Christ but not an intact organizational structure from then until now. I just don't see that supported historically.

DL said:

quote:
Some look to money...some to booze or drugs, so to social stature, sex, violence, and some to 'god'.

But the truth is, the only one that can truly make a person happy is themselves.

I would have to agree pretty much with this. Each individual is solely responsible and solely capable of determining their state of mind.

But happiness is a tricky thing to discuss in this context since I think we confuse it with Joy or inner peace. Let's define happy as "something good happens to you", like finding a $100 on the street corner. And let's define joy as that state of inner peace and contentment with everything regardless of the current happenstances.

I'm not sure if atheism, or any other philosophy/religion outside of Christ, can provide joy. I'm sure it can provide happiness to one degree or another. But it should be pointed out that there are those who look for happiness (remember the definitions) in religiousity. That is futile and I try to rail against those who do that every bit as much, if not more, than I do against those who reject God. But this falls into how I believe this all works and it would be very difficult to actually prove how much happiness or joy a person has, it's far too subjective. It really comes down to how each of us live our lives. I can only hope that sharing these views will help us all to better understand how it all really works.

. . : slicePuzzle

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-31-2003 20:15

For the record, my statement used "happy" in the sense that you defined joy.

And of course, it is very much a religous concept that only religion can provide inner peace.

It is a very silly notion as well.

The religion is simply a means to an end. IMO, it is way of clouding things so that the path to true inner peace is either made longer or actually forgotten. Of course, that is not to say that there are not countless other ways in which that happens to a person, or that simply not being religious is an answer.

As I said, the only way to achieve this peace is to come to peace with yourself, and the only one that provide that for you is you. Not god, not christ, not the pope, not your dealer, your pimp, your accountant or your mommy.

Only you.

Even giving the benefit of the doubt and asuming that there is a god that exists according to the christian doctrine, in all hsi power and wisdom he could not grant a person contentment.

The trick to religion is in the believer coming to think that god is the only one that can give them such things, and then in coming to beleive that god forgives them, or that god loves them, or that god has chosen a path for them (or whatever it is that they need...) and so by proxy comging to beleive such things of themselves.

Much like a sugar pill curing a headache. It's real, and it works, because the human mind is capable of controlling a person's physical symptoms as well as it's spiritual, emotional and intellectual ones, but humans always think that they need someone or something else to fix things. The placebo satisfies that requirement, and then the mind does the rest behind your back

{{BTW - could someone with the ability *PLEASE* turn that image into a link? It is becoming a serious nuisance.}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-31-2003).]

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 10-31-2003 22:31

DL

Most of your ideals are based on personal opinons either yours or someone elses regarding God/Religion. And everybody is allowed to an opinon. But thats all they are. The arguments you present are repetitions from anti-religious of days long past. Corruption, authority, vast holdings, political power, torture, etc.
Yet you have no idea what a deep faith in a God of love is all about. You have a deep resentment on the administrators of faith, but you have no compassion for the followers of faith. You have a mind set on what YOU think religion should be, but then you have never been really religious to be a judge of it. You don't understand the meaning of faith in God, but then you put faith in LOVE. A Love you would die for if need be. So like you related to me and I relate back to you. I think your not sure your an athiest. You doubt your athiesim.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 10-31-2003 23:35
quote:
Most of your ideals are based on personal opinons either yours or someone elses regarding God/Religion



How clever of yo uto notice.

So are yours.

So are everybody's

quote:
...are repetitions from anti-religious of days long past.



No. They are observations on the current state of things. Of course the past is also part of that - how could it not be?

quote:
you have no compassion for the followers of faith



Not so at all. Where do you draw this from?

quote:
but then you have never been really religious to be a judge of it



Yes, I have actually. I've explained that before.


quote:
You don't understand the meaning of faith in God, but then you put faith in LOVE



I certainly understand the meaning of faith in god. I simply find it ridiculous. Remember - that's my opinion....

Faith in love? Sure. Not blind faith dictated to me by a beauracracy...

quote:
I think your not sure your an athiest. You doubt your athiesim.



You seem to enjoy saying that, is if somehow claiming so will make it be.

Explain that. How do you draw such a conclusion? Simply because you can't grasp that I might not be your typical secular-scientist-atheist?

You, like most of the religious world, misinterpret what atheism is (and what it is not).



WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-01-2003 09:49

I find myself in agreement with DL here - I too, was a firm believer...before the war, that is. Afterwards, and after much soul-searching, I realized that I didn't 'need' religion to solve my inner problems, that it was more like a crutch, and was actually preventing me from doing so. Finally taking responsibility for my own actions, and taking my life into my own hands, was the solution for me.

Now that I don't 'need' religion for this, it is much easier to look at religion without bias...well, with less, perhaps. Certainly not through the glasses of Faith.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-01-2003 09:49

[Double post, darn it!]

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 11-01-2003).]

Fig
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Houston, TX, USA
Insane since: Apr 2000

posted posted 11-01-2003 19:11

well, i don't need religion, i need God. unfortunately the pursuit of that has been often interrupted and corrupted by religion or people doing things in the name of religion. for the most part christianity has little to do with the religious aspects and much more to do with the relational aspects of God.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-01-2003 23:46

Very well said, Fig. That is the kind of view that I can have a lot of respect for. I still disagree on some pretty fundamental issues of course...but I can respect that approach.

WS - what, you been gone so long you forgot how to work this thing?



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 11-01-2003).]

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-02-2003 12:18

Very well put, Fig.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-07-2003 17:51

So, Jade -

You made a lot of rahter boisterous claims there. Do you have any plans of backing them up, maybe even addressing my points?

Just curious......



WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-07-2003 17:57

^ Has she ever?

*scratches head*

Can't seem to remember a time, when she did...

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 11-07-2003 18:46

So, Jade -
You made a lot of rahter boisterous claims there. Do you have any plans of backing them up, maybe even addressing my points?
Just curious......DL

^ Has she ever?
*scratches head*
Can't seem to remember a time, when she did...WB

What would happen if I went away for good? Who else could you
love to pick on? Don't worry, I like you too.
Since I make so many boisterous claims, how am I to know
which ones you are referring to. So please let me know which
ones I need to back up.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-07-2003 19:55
quote:
Who else could you
love to pick on?





Actually Jade, it looks like you were picking on me there. Something you do quite often as a matter of fact. Don't try to turn it around just because I actually challenge the baseless points you tend to make about me.

You made some very specific attacks and accusations which I addressed specifically in reply.

I am interested in your thoughts on those issues (if you look at the last few posts, it is very obvious which ones I refer to here), if you can lay down your martyr complex for a moment....

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 11-07-2003 22:55

Thats true. I enjoy picking on you. But you
leave yourself tempting to nibble. Are
you doing it on purpose?

I must admit I like playing the maryter too
on occasion. But I will address your points
as soon as I can. I am off for a camping
weekend so it will have to be next week.

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 11-07-2003 23:04

Dear God, please send a HUGE ASS METEOR down the earth and kill all the living humans....

thanyouverymuch!

=)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-08-2003 17:19
quote:
I must admit I like playing the maryter too



Oh we're all quite aware of that Jade.

Problem is, playing the 'martyr' implies some sort of basis on which to do so....which so far I haven't seen. It also implies something a little more significant than the melodramatic 'you're all against me because I'm catholic' nonsense you usually pull out when you can't actually explain or answer the the questions or statements posed to you.

Lashing out with insults every time you feel you've backed into a corner is a sad way to spend your time, and a sad statement about what you call your "faith" (no, not the religion. I mean you).

But....whatever. I don't actually expect any sort of personal honesty in you, I don't expect you to be able to answer any of the questions or challenges I toss out. But I figure, what the hell - we're all here....the subject is out there....might as well throw out my 2 cents.

jade
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: houston, tx usa
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 11-12-2003 21:13

DL

You know.......I would never presume you would be dishonest with me. And I don't understand why you think I lie about what I post. But for the record, Chrisitanity is based on maryterdom since the death of Christ, he being the first maryter. So maryterdom is the Catholic concept. Die to self for love of others. Not so bad.

Anyway ......

Would you please bite a big piece of reality. Your the king of insults from day one. Somebody back me up here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of your ideals are based on personal opinons either yours or someone elses regarding God/Religion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How clever of yo uto notice.

So are yours.

So are everybody's


No this is not true. Belief in Christianity is not based on opinions. Its based on the word of Jesus Christ who is a true God and a true man. A true Christian gives into
total submission to the way of the Lord. And as the perfect church is the christ, the wounded church strives to perfect itself in Christ. This belief is not based on anyones opinion. Its scriptural and universally taught. In matters of faith, opinions like " Well I think, or it should be this way" in regard to doctrine or tradition just
don't matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...are repetitions from anti-religious of days long past.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. They are observations on the current state of things. Of course the past is also part of that - how could it not be?


Again, here you are guilty of judging a people instead of acts. The current state of things is ok. Catholics are still catholic. Church is still growing. All slanders, sins within, schisms, wars, disunity, scandal and dissidents will not be able to prevail against the Church(s) or bring it down. "The gates of hell will not prevail against the kindgom on earth" per Jesus to Peter.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you have no compassion for the followers of faith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not so at all. Where do you draw this from?

From your post views on the Catholic church, which are very obvious. If you deny this, then YOUR not being honest with yourself.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but then you have never been really religious to be a judge of it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I have actually. I've explained that before.

OK. I don't remember what you practiced when you were a believer in Christ. So enlighten me. What was the ultimate deterrant. What exactly turned you away from God. Pride? The real world? Rejection?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't understand the meaning of faith in God, but then you put faith in LOVE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I certainly understand the meaning of faith in god. I simply find it ridiculous. Remember - that's my opinion....

Faith in love? Sure. Not blind faith dictated to me by a beauracracy...


Like I said before there are billions of opinions about God out there, but God has no opinion about you. God loves you without barriers, without bias, without conciet. God loves the real you, even if you don't love God.

Beauracracy is another opinion you have given to what the church represents to you. It is no lie that the church throughout history has shaped civilizations and conqured in the name of Jesus Christ. And was and is still instrumental in social change for a better Christ centered world. The fall of communism in Poland and Russia was due to Pope John Paul the II. Is that a good thing to you? What about the role of Mother Theresa of Calcutta. She opened houses for the dying. She took off people from the ditches and roads in India and gave them a place to die with dignity. Because of her there are many houses for the poor to die with love, care and dignity. She is a monument to the faith. Did she do a good thing for herself and on her own. If you had asked her, she would say she saw the face of Jesus in every dying person. So she did it all for Jesus. A small tiny woman made a hugh monumental difference. See how the church works in todays world. There are injustices happening all over the world, and the Catholic church has been and is there and she does not boast on what she has accomplished to the world in regard to social justice.

To sum it all up:

There are two great powerful instutitions in the world today who without them we would not have a world. They are:

The Catholic Church and the United States of America.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your not sure your an athiest. You doubt your athiesim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You seem to enjoy saying that, is if somehow claiming so will make it be.

Explain that. How do you draw such a conclusion? Simply because you can't grasp that I might not be your typical secular-scientist-atheist?

You, like most of the religious world, misinterpret what atheism is (and what it is not).


From what I can gather in thought about athiest. Now, I am not talking about you as a person, but most athiest in general are kinda arrogant & think they are smarter than most or have some hidden agenda against believers. Most are intellectuals who seem to feel they found the key to reasoning God out of existance. For the most part though its being able to do what they want without being accountable to anyone. Just to themselves. Athiest do believe in a God. Its just that the God they believe in is themselves.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 11-12-2003).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 11-12-2003 22:17
quote:
I don't understand why you think I lie about what I post



I don't. I said you're not honest with yourself.

quote:
Your the king of insults from day one



Nope. You simply take any challenge to your statements as an insult. That's your problem - not mine.

quote:
Its based on the word of Jesus Christ who is a true God and a true man.....Its scriptural and universally taught



Yes, and that would be an opinion.
How widely held an opinion is has no bearing on its state of being an opinion.

quote:
The current state of things is ok



Are you insane? Or perhaps blind....deaf maybe? Once again, you pull out cliche, dogma, and scripture to blindly defend a situation rather than actually looking at the situation itself.

quote:
From your post views on the Catholic church, which are very obvious.



Yes, I have a very negative view of the catholic church. How does this have anything to do with your presumption in ragard to my level of compassion for individuals?

quote:
What exactly turned you away from God. Pride? The real world? Rejection?



The pure falshood, contradictions, hypocrasy, and arrogance of the church turned me away from the church. I wasn't turned away from god, because there is no god.

quote:
The fall of communism in Poland and Russia was due to Pope John Paul the II



WHOA! I think that is just a bit of an overstatement there Jade!!

quote:
What about the role of Mother Theresa of Calcutta ... Did she do a good thing for herself and on her own.(?)



Yes, she certainly did. Mother Theresa played an amazing role world wide and should be remembered forever for the things she accomplished and the selfless work she did for so many.

quote:
A small tiny woman made a hugh monumental difference.



Yep. She did. Not the catholic church. Yes, she was a catholic. That is irrelevent to me. She did these things - as you said yourself - "on her own". 1 out of billions that made such an impact....am I supposed to be wowed by the greatness of the church because of that...?

quote:
without them we would not have a world. They are:

The Catholic Church and the United States of America.



Once again I have to ask.....are you insane??

As far as atheism is concerned - once again, you are doing two things: judging me based on your perceptions of other people who claim to be atheists, and assuming that being an atheist means having a specific doctrine of belief. It most certainly does not. It means I don't beleive in god(s). Period.



outcydr
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: out there
Insane since: Oct 2001

posted posted 11-12-2003 23:12

I enjoy following along but, for the sake of download time and bandwidth, I hope you all will carry on this conversation in Part 2.


ed: breaking the link loop

Emp edit: Adding link to new thread]

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 11-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 11-13-2003).]

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