Topic awaiting preservation: Undecided Religion Questions (Page 2 of 4)

I dont understand, since it says that you shall not build idol for god...why is everyone doing it anyway?
we have sculptures, the huge cathedras, crosses, stained glasses, images of god, paintnings...I understand its nice to look at, but what about the commandment you should uphold?

edit: ohh and bugs, when it is metioned in bible about church, I think what the author was trying to say is the heart not the actual building...since it was catholic church that translated the bible, I believe they tweeked those worlds in order for people to actually attend mass and buy pardons.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-04-2003).]

Bugs &Fig
Thank you for your responses. Me discussing faith with you helps me focus on whats important as I am going thru a certain trial period of darkness and I ask you to pray for me that I will make it thru. I thought of you both as I was listening to the homily at mass today and thanked God how the Lord sends people to inspire the heart.

I would in noway ever presume to say your wayward christians. In fact the opposite. I would never judge ones faith as to what I think it should be. We are searching on different roads headed to the same destination. Maybe one day our paths will meet. Maybe not.

To answer your question Bugs, I believe grace is fully given by God like a gift. The gift of sanctifying grace is offered to all without the use of priest or religious. Priest don't save us. We save ourselves and priest are instrumental like tools to do Gods will and in administering Gods plans and to help guide the faithful. I think God needs all the helpers he can get to show the lost and you will have to agree their are so many lost souls who don't know where to turn or go and are in need of religious.

I have problem with believing that God would want us to be so divided amongst each other on what is and isn't what his son Jesus intends or intended. That its Gods plan for use to all go our separate ways in which God individually talks to us thru private revelation tells us what right to do and wrong to do that is contrary to what are neighbors and friends are doing or in how they are interpreting scripture. I don't see how God would be pleased with this in seeing how his sons body is divided in many parts. I would think God wants us to be one faith & one body and this is scriptural, but that doesn't mean if we are not all in agreement some of us won't inherit the kingdom. I believe God calls all to be believers where ever they are at in their walk in life. Some of them are given grace in abundance. Some people have such a big shinning and you can tell the grace of God has really touched them.

The priesthood in Catholicism is thought of as royal fatherhood and of God here on earth. Just like Jesus referred to Abraham as father, so we too refer to priest as fathers because they help father the faithful to keep them in Gods grace. Real fatherhood here on earth operates in the same way. What father wouldn't want happiness & wellbeing for his sons & daughers here on earth. So too, do the priesthood, bishops, popes have the same hopes for all the children of God in reaching everlasting life. So what wrong with that? Its good to have people who God has choosen and they have accepted fully with much sacrifice. They can never marry or have children, never own property, they take a vow of celibacy, they take a vow of poverty and vow to father the people of God forever till they die. They are not forced or made to accept this. They are married to the church of God and they accept all that goes with this. They in their humanity have the same feelings and go thru trials of darkenss like we all do. They have parents, brothers, sisters, nephews and nieces. They are not set apart from us and do not sit on a pedestal. They consider themselves servants of the God and servants to Gods people. They do it for love of God. So I think they deserve much respect from us for this reason.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-06-2003).]

priest=tool? ait he is supposed to be something called human, who is like everyone else?

priest, teacher, phylosopher all same to me, he is simply prieching his phylosophy on what he thinks is right and the way it should be, there is no right or wrong there is only difference of oppinions.

there is not a single religeon that is "correct" . People are simly given to believe what they want to believe, the information that suits them best, the information that fits better their personality for their way of life. BOOYAH


cant you understand it jade, so simple. why is christainity so divided huh?
greed! everyone wants to have it their way...

"Hey, I am right, everyone that doesnt agree : WRONG!" goes off and makes his religeon...and so on and on and on.

would you rather chose karate or jeet kun do? after all both are made for fighting, exercise, self defence and so on.....people chose what fits them best, what in their own individual opinion what is good for them. End of story, I hope you get the drill.

would you say that having an idividual thought is a "sin"?
just because someone doesnt think the way you do, is he supposed to be damned for eternity by supreme creator?
cmon jade think about it.

Rusik wrote:

"there is not a single religion that is "correct"

Ok....why? Do you know something that members of organized religions don't?

I would have to say that one of the reasons christianity has splintered into thousands of sects is becasue they claim to have discovered their own way to christ which better suits their lifestyle. Usually they are pastor centered on what the opinion of the pastors are in regard to how they see the bible interpreted. Anyone can start a church. I see a lot these days in shopping centers like business to make money and most of the money are for the pastors pockets. I would think some are sincere. But a lot are for greed. If you have a charasmatic personality and have a way with words you can hook, line and sink anyone in like salesmen. Some people are too willing to be led good religious leadership. Its like selling salvation for a weekly tithe. Usually when the pastor fails, so does the church and in cases closes down.

I don't think that I am right and everyone else wrong. I cannot have an opinion in regard to my faith in matters of doctrine. I only know the truth in Christ who is the founder. Do I believe my faith is the true church Christ intended to establish? Yes. I do. ITs the teaching of my church to believe this. If I am unsure of this, then that would be a really big problem for me. Some people go shopping around for a church that fulfills the kind of beliefs that fit with their lifestyle so its easier with less obligations and rules. A lot of people have problems with authority and just can't see a big institution telling them how to live their personal lives, sort of like the US Goverment.

I see the point you are trying to make with the martial arts and Christianity analogy. I know there are similarities. They both require great discpline, commitment and great dedication. They both are good for your emotional well being and body. They both can protect you in defense against bad elements. But one is only a temporary and the other goes the further distance in achieving living forever to beyond what our limited human minds can imagine.

Its ok to ponder and think how this whole idea of the world fits together in regard to ones faith. God doesn't want you to have a zombie like attitude and just follow where you are led. God gives us the grace to look and find truth ourselves. Its God pulling like a magnet thur the whole lifespan. Some resist the pull thur misguided love of earthly temporary attachments.
The creator doesn't dam one to hell. Lets take it out of God's court and put it in yours. The person makes that choice thru love of evil which is anything that takes them away from God. So don't blame God for anything wrong. There is a divine justice that one has to go thur and there can be no escape from this.

Not a single religion correct... about what?

I think a religion can be correct about whether Jesus Christ lived and died on a cross and then was raised from the dead 3 days later. That either happened or it did not. If it did happen, then you have millions of people on this planet that belong to religions that are correct about that.

Now those very same millions of people disagree on whether church government should look like the church Jade attends or the one I attend. We have very different leadership structures to say the least.

Ruski, I understand you associate with people who give you a real hard time but please try not to take it out on us here. While I agree very strongly that you (and everyone else) needs faith in Christ to go to heaven, I don't always agree with the methods that people use in getting that message across. I think our best model for transmitting this message comes from Christ himself. He did it unequivocally all the while demonstrating his overwhelming love for us.

Jade, like I said before, I understand our differences pretty well but I do not want to let that interfere with our agreements. I hear that you are going through some tough times and I am more than happy to include you in my prayers. I'm sure that goes for most around here as well.

. . : slicePuzzle

WEll I am not bothered really on Ruski's approach in discussing or responding to post regarding faith. I would be interested in knowing where his feelings or opinions are rooted and am interested in knowing why he feels the way he does. Even if he has a negative view of christianity, it matters to me how a christian relates to him.

I dont have negative view on christianity, but I do have negative view on catholic church, sorry jade.
I was raised in catholic family myself, when I moved to USA somehow I got into christian school, where I was learning 2 points of views.
I came to understand that in my oppion and acording to bible the catholic church idolizes things too much and performs useless seremonies as well prohibits to do normal things such as letting woman preach or letting preast to get married....this led me to isolation from catholic faith....I also dislike alot of fanatic people in my school, dont get me wrong I highly respect bugs and I highly respect christainity and I agree that christian teachings has what other religeons dont, but I happened not to belive in after life or anything like that, it doesnt make sense to me whatsoever.
A creator who creats an imperfect creation and judges it with punishment and reward, only giving a room for 2 choses, heaven or hell...doesnt seems like there is much free will at all.

second in my oppinion afterlife is totally unecessary, I dont know what happens but I am sure as hell there is no gonna be "heaven-hell thing" it sounds just to simply for supreme being (if he exist) to do something as that.

overall immortal life was a human dream for centuries and I believe they are just ideas.
I do believe in mystery of nature and I think its way far beyond human imagination or explanation to understand it or even think about it.

Over centuries people came to fear idea of hell alot, first they relied on buying pardons from catholic church, then some of them isolated and fallowed the bible pure way, "by faith" which led to many other ideas how to reach heaven what to do or what not...as well turning into crusaids blah blah you know it all I guess....

Even though its a matter of ones opinion on what faith is christian or not, Catholics consider themselves Christ followers. I think Christ would like that we consider ourselves his servants and that is all that matters . I see your view is subject to predjudices given by anti-Catholics or misinformed teachers. Now I undertand the attitude towards me in your post.

Is any of your family still Catholics? In your view, who do Catholics iodolize? Contrary to popular belief we do not worship statues. That what protestants what you to believe, but it has never been so. IT is a misconception that has no grounds. If one would think about that idea with all the other beliefs the church enspouses, it seems so absurd to think that way. Almost elementary in thinking. Worship is for God alone and we teach that.

No, it has nothing to do with teacher its my own full thinking.....I dont like the teachers myself.

yes my family is still catholic for they are not where I am....also my mom is still catholic......

now jade you guys put to much things between yourself and christ, apostles, virgina mary( and you even believe that she was always virgin) jesus had a brother you know, priest, confesions to priests and baptizing of babies, I dont like those things for they are not mentioned in bible to be fallowed. Its even never mentioned in bible that you should baptize baby, becouse baby doesnt recognize "sin" , when a person is grown up for himself he should himself chose if he wants to get baptized or not....now I also dislike alot of protestan fanatics, they constantly shove their nose in my face and saying shit, trying to convert me.....and catholics always blabling how sinful its to change the faith.

I am a religios person, but am I of any group? no.

religeon= A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

does it has to do with anything supernatural? no
so yes atheism is also a religeon.
am I atheist? no


now catholic make statues and crosses with christ hanging there...its already an idolization, god said in bible "you shall not make an idol of me neither of gold nor of silver"
When christ came to a city people started putting palm leaves or cloth for him to cross but he said it clear : NO IDOLS...you dont need things, crosses, tools to believe in christ, those all practices are completly useless.
it doesnt matter you worship christ or god , you still make idol out of them, you make idols out of aposltes and pray to them, paintings of virgin mary and pray to her, statues of christ on the cross and pray to him this are all idols....I think the christain matter has to be practiced through soul and not idolization.


edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-07-2003).]

Interesting -

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Some people are too willing to be led good religious leadership. Its like selling salvation for a weekly tithe

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That's how I see catholicism =)

Of course, through political heavy heandedness and violent campaign, they've managed to stick around a few hundred years longer than the average shopping mall 'salvation stations'

ruski, paying respect to something or remembering it in some way isn't idolatry. do you have a poster of anything on your wall? if so that's idolatry by your definition.

if that image/symbol/etc. becomes more important than or takes precedence over God or following your faith THEN it could be considered idolatry.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

nope sorry I have no posters on my wall or anything like that.

and since we dont even know how they looked we make up an image and build a statue for it, isnt it funny?

White, skinny Jesus with blue eyes, catholic nun virgin marry, Dude with big white beard god....gimmy a brake

Images can be *used* in the right way. That is the point I think. Images that portray Jesus as a white European are hilarious to me but that doesn't mean that people are looking at those images for racial reasons. They are usually looking to those images as a way to remind them of something important.

Now I have no doubt that there are plenty of Catholics who do engage in idolatry. I also know for a fact that there are evangelicals who also commit that sin... just not with statues. You pointed out how religion should occur in the heart, well you're basically right. As long as the images are kept in their right perspective there is no problem with them.

. . : slicePuzzle

Ruski, Why here you go... a rather nice looking brake. . .

heh.

DL,

We are not forced to tithe. We give from the heart what we can. Some give of their time instead to help the growth of the church. In order for anykind of church to exist it must have funds. How is Gods churches on earth going to spread the message of salvation? Do you think giving money in this case would be OK?
Like any other institution the church has bills. I use to work in a rectory as a student and the electricity bill was over $6000.00 just for one month, plus in order to operate and provide services and give to the poor we must have funds to give. And we house a food pantry for the less unfortunate. So people give all the time. But one must never be forced to give. I hear people crying all the time complaining that the chruch is always asking for money, but they see no problem spending thousands of dollars on pleasure trips, excesses, luxuries, jewerly, etc. They feel everything in church should come free because it represents God and it would be ok with God if they only gave a dollar or two a month.

Ruski

In reference to idols, the revelation about this is don't idoloize any person or thing that takes you away from God. It would be considered false worship. This means drugs, alcohol, money, movie stars, celebrities, sports figures, power over any person, place or thing, musicians like madonna, kurt cobain, brittney spears, etc. I know people who idolize kurt cobain like he was so great but he was a drug addict who commited suicide. Look at Elvis? He has a shrine built in his honor. Is this false worship? Yes it is. You will have to agree there is a lot of false idolozing in these. What about statues and bust of great heros of our country? Look at the Lincoln memorial, Mt Rushmore, etc.
What do you think about these? Do they make you feel pride and love of country?

If the idol focuses you to think of God like a stain glass window, a cross, a picture of Christ, a statue of CHrist or his nativity props at Christmas time, or his mother the virgin mary and his great apostles and saints that did his will and are maryters of the faith, then they are ok. Because you think of Christ and remember his mission and death and ressurection. Why do we remember Christmas or Easter? Why do we celebrate those times of the year? Why about a Christmas tree? Isn't it a symbol of the remembrance of the birth of Christ? Its because they make us think of Christ? So what is the difference if physical pieces draw us to see Christ in them and think of him. I think thats what Christ would want us to do as much as possible. So there is no worship given in the material made of stone or of wood or clay, just who it makes us think of. What if there were no physical signs of Christ here on earth? Wouldn't that mean we would think of Christ less often? So I think Christ has a hand in making these symbols available to us. I am sure you have a picture of your friend, girlfriend or family member in your house or wallet, because it makes you think of them because they are close to you and in remebrance of how much love or like them you keep them close to you.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

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In order for anykind of church to exist it must have funds. How is Gods churches on earth going to spread the message of salvation? Do you think giving money in this case would be OK?

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Well, looking at the extravagance of any catholic church I have ever seen, and especially the splendor of Rome, I think it is fair to say that the money has been used for far more than "spreading the message of salvation".

Of course, the catholic church - as I mentioned - has had some pretty violent and 'ungodly' ways of spreading that message....

And of course you are not *forced* to tithe...neither are the people that you originally mentioned (You may recall that you are the one who brought it up? I just pointed it back at you...). I never said anything about being forced. Yo implied that people gave money in order to help secure their salvation. Can you possibly even attempt to say that such things are not rampant among catholics?

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Why about a Christmas tree? Isn't it a symbol of the remembrance of the birth of Christ?

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No. As a matter of fact, it is a very *un* christian symbol. It is a remnant of the pagan druidic religions of the germanic barbarian tribes that were violently and warfully converted to christianity. The evergreen was a symbol of one of their immortal dieties, and was held sacred. It was often the focal point of their winter solstice celebration - you know, the 'yule' that was celebrated at that time long before "christmas" ever came to be....

The christmas tree was a way of saying "we haven't forgotten who we are, despite our forced submission". Not a way to remember the birth of christ....




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-07-2003).]

Oh yeah thats right about the tree. But we still use it as an external to memorialize Christ birth. So, that is whats important.

All the extravagence of Rome belongs to all. Even non-catholics.
Its Christian legacy. Its only in a trust of safekeeping like historical items of times long gone. I know they have to most famous artwork in the world, but it doesn't amount to anything unless its sold and that would never happen. If your ever in Rome check out the beauty and splendor. Its breathtaking. They say you can fit the space shuttle over the main altar and still have room at the top left over.

Don't you own items DL that you could never put a price tag on because they are too meaningful to you?



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

Your backwards rationalization is quite astounding Jade.

You can find a way to justify absolutely anything with meaningless and contradictory words, and somehow not notice the contradictions and oversights...

We most certainly do not use the chrismas tree as a way to remember chirst, we use it as decoration and a place to put presents. In what way does it possibly symbolize christ? And if you *do* use it that way, then it is just one more thing that roman catholicism has stolen from another culture and then pretended that they themselves created it...

=)

And you make it seem as if the catholic church just happened to stumble upon these very un-christ like lavishly rich buildings that we call the Vatican. That the church is simply preserving their beauty for all to enjoy....that they didn't spend insane amounts of money building them for the sole purpose of making a very earthly and material display.
That the church should have an altar so large and expensive, housed in a building so large and expensive, housing people that are pampered and live at the expense of the public, is very counter to the basic ideaology of christ.

That we should adorn churches with such expenisve and useless objects that we do is an affront to the senses, and a memorial to hypocrasy.

What would St. Francis say upon finding golden statues of himself? Can you imagine?

Things that mean too much to me to put a price tag on? Certainly.

Things that cost inordinate amounts of money, bought for the express purpose of looking fancy in a church service? That's a different story.




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-07-2003).]

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Oh yeah thats right about the tree. But we still use it as an external to memorialize Christ birth. So, that is whats important.

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I don't think I've seen so blatent a dismissal of someone elses beliefs in my life. DL is spot on in the origins of the Christmas Tree. One other thing to mention, Christam aligns with Yule because it was a way to appease the Druidic peoples. It doesn't even align with Christ's suggested birth date. At least to my understanding of that issue.

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All the extravagence of Rome belongs to all. Even non-catholics.
Its Christian legacy. Its only in a trust of safekeeping like historical items of times long gone. I know they have to most famous artwork in the world, but it doesn't amount to anything unless its sold and that would never happen. If your ever in Rome check out the beauty and splendor. Its breathtaking. They say you can fit the space shuttle over the main altar and still have room at the top left over.

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Except that it doesn't belong to everyone. It belongs to the church. Beatuy and Splendor are all well and good when it isn't at the expense of the masses. How much more could the money that is in the church(es) in Rome have done for people if it was spent on them, instead of material things that are better off in museums?

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Don't you own items DL that you could never put a price tag on because they are too meaningful to you?

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This sounds an awful lot like the Idolotry that you were talking about before. Things that are so valuable that they take us away from God. Things that are priceless because their ownership is more important then the item itself lend themselves toward earthly temptations of Greed and Pride. What use has the church for these items? None... none at all. I would rather the purveyers of the faith works from the church of their souls (the only church I'm aware of the bible speaking of) instead of creating impressive bastions of the faith that prove to me time and time again that they don't understand what they claim to believe. If the faith can only attract people by it's "Shock and Awe" value it isn't something I'm likely to be interested in. It's the heart of the faith that should draw people to it, not the wealth of the faith.



{EDIT}We really have to stop meeting liek this, DL =){EDIT}

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-07-2003).]

GD

So if they sell the famous paintings, where should the church put the money? If museums buy them, people are going to pay to look at them. At the Vatican, its free. What about the true relics of the cross like the nails, crown of thorns, robe, lance that pierced christ side, the sign king of the jews that was nail to the top of the crucifixion cross and St Peters bones? What kind of price tag should the church put on those items to sell?

I can see your point on the idols. But it would depend on what they sybolized. If your mother left you a keepsake or something b4 her death or your have your childrens momentos or your entrusted with a family heirloom, would you ever one day sell them? If you did, what would be the reason. I don't think this is worshiping of idols. They are items that remind you of someone(s) you hold dear. They direct you to a feeling of love.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

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where should the church put the money?

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How about leading by example:

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The Rich Young Man

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

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This really doesn't answer the question.
How does a poor institution with no money evangelize? In the churchs selling of riches no one person profits. If they give it all to the poor, then what? there will still be poor people to feed. What else could they sell to feed the poor?

Catholic Charities is the largest contributor to the poor not just in the United States but to the poor in nations all over the world. Let me know who tops them.

after scanning the above, i only have a couple of tidbits to offer

about the evergreen--in the old testament, the fir tree is used as analogy to God as always alive--it's all in how you look at it

quote--' Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." '

"the eye of the needle" is a gate in a city wall used for security reasons when the main gate is shut --only tall enough for a man to walk through--in order for a camel to pass through it has to kneel down and remove it's baggage--this is analogy for a person has to humble themself (realize that in the end he is no better than anyone i.e. he will face death) and unburden ones self of hang-ups--and enter in to safety

i do a poor job of explaining but, there it is anyway

~jeremiah was a bullfrog~

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So if they sell the famous paintings, where should the church put the money?

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I agree with Bug's response. And it answers the question very well. I'll touch on this further on.

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If museums buy them, people are going to pay to look at them. At the Vatican, its free.

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So? Is it better for an institution that has dedicated it's existence to the protection and restoration of historical items to do so to it's fullest or for an institution that has dedicated (if it has) itself to the spiritual needs of the people to do it?

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What about the true relics of the cross like the nails, crown of thorns, robe, lance that pierced christ side, the sign king of the jews that was nail to the top of the crucifixion cross and St Peters bones? What kind of price tag should the church put on those items to sell?

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These make sense for the church to have. They relates directly to it's own history and are distinctly siritual in nature. None of what I have been saying has been about price, except for the fact that the church spent money on things it ought not to have IMHO.

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I can see your point on the idols. But it would depend on what they sybolized. If your mother left you a keepsake or something b4 her death or your have your childrens momentos or your entrusted with a family heirloom, would you ever one day sell them? If you did, what would be the reason. I don't think this is worshiping of idols. They are items that remind you of someone(s) you hold dear. They direct you to a feeling of love.

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No, I would never sell such items. but I would never sacrifice myself for them either. They are just things. Material goods that mean little to nothing in comparison of the joy that is love and life.

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How does a poor institution with no money evangelize? In the churchs selling of riches no one person profits. If they give it all to the poor, then what? there will still be poor people to feed. What else could they sell to feed the poor?

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Herein lies my issue with the church. It seems to think that it has to actively Proselytize or Evangelize. I think that the best way for them to spread the word of God is to do what they were told by the bible. Give to the poor. Do wonderful things for people without expecting recompense. Live life as Christ lived life. Trust me. If everyone in the church started acting this way... word would get around. You don't need money to spread the word. Isn't the phrase Actions speak louder then words derived from a passage in the bible? Actions borne of devotion speak louder than money ever will.

Nope, I dont idolize not a single TV start or any other loser on earth, the statues of lincolin? nope , you forgot that I am not an american, even if I live here I dont care much, neither I worship anyone from russia, I dont put anybody above me... I dont have a single poster or any other thing in my place about some kind of person....i do admire alot of old art masters and wise people, but I dont go and get myself a bunch of crap like posters and post em in my room, cause I know that all people are same and for a reason why they become great is not magic, just alot of hard work.... no statues, mini statue of liberty figures, crosses or russian flags, american flags, puerto rican flags, whatever....its not for me

what does christmas tree has to do with christ? I always though it had to do something with santa =)

and I havent had a christmas tree in like 3 years already =)


memory stays inside my head jade, not in the "thing" I pay money for.....

everything the most importan I have is in my head, my skills, my knowledge, my memory and such. No one can take them away from me, and for your idols, they can be stolen, broken and such.

OK. About being good and giving up all your possessions for the poor bible verse, that would mean all Christians all called to give up luxuries and do without to give to the poor. You cannot be wealthy and Christian too. So does that means to sell your house, cars, clothes, computers, and all personal possessions and be homeless. You cannot live high on the hog while your brother is starving. Right?

The paintings are also religions frescos and religious pieces so they are referencing the faith.

I agree with you on ones actions speaking louder than words.

A famous saying I like is " preach the gospel and when necessary use words"

But all the christian faithful are called to evangelize and make "disciples of all men" This is in scripture. And words are necessary too. St Paul preached with words endlessly. If he never would have spoken words, Christianity wouldn't have spread like it did. So words and actions together work better.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-07-2003).]

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So if they sell the famous paintings, where should the church put the money? If museums buy them, people are going to pay to look at them. At the Vatican, its free. What about the true relics of the cross like the nails, crown of thorns, robe, lance that pierced christ side, the sign king of the jews that was nail to the top of the crucifixion cross and St Peters bones? What kind of price tag should the church put on those items to sell?

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But, once again Jade, I am not talking about religious relics, or paintings on the wall.
I have more than once pointed out exactly what I am talking about, and you have simply ignored the point so that you could defend your meaning seperate from the facts at hand.

Care to address the actual issue that I have brought up?

and then -

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How does a poor institution with no money evangelize?

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Maybe they could do it the way jesus did.

There's a novel thought....



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-07-2003).]

Well, I am not saying that the church is to not have *any* money. It does indeed require money and resources to evangelize and I didn't intend to say it didn't. The issue with the Roman church, however, is one of extravagence. I feel very comfortable criticizing the Catholic church for keeping far too much wealth for it's own adornment and not applying enough of it to doing God's work. And, yes, that means that painting really nice paintings is usually not God's work. They can be uplifting and have their place but on the level of the Roman church, I say it is too much.

The point I am trying to stress is that the church must view all of its possessions as *tools* to accomplish God's will. Now this also applies to every believer so I am preaching to myself on this. Wella and I have made certain financial commitments to God and the numbers are not important except to say that we are struggling to maintain those commitments and I look forward to the day that we can increase those numbers and sustain those as well.

The role model that has inspired me the most concerning wealth and giving is John Wesley. This is a great description of how he viewed this issue for Christians: What Wesley Practiced and Preached About Money
I come no where near his dedication but it is good to have goals. The part that struck me the most when I first heard it was:

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Perhaps as a result of this incident, in 1731, Wesley began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money to give to the poor. He records that one year his income was 30 pounds and his living expenses 28 pounds, so he had 2 pounds to give away. The next year his income doubled, but he still managed to live on 28 pounds, so he had 32 pounds to give to the poor. In the third year, his income jumped to 90 pounds. Instead of letting his expenses rise with his income, he kept them to 28 pounds and gave away 62 pounds. In the fourth year, he received 120 pounds. As before, his expenses were 28 pounds, so his giving rose to 92 pounds.

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He was able to live off only enough of his income he needed to be comfortable and stable, the rest he gave away even as his income rose. Awesome!

I have personal friends who have gone overseas to preach the good word to others. In some cases, to countries that are quite hostile to missionaries and so they have to travel and hide the fact that they were missionaries. For instance, they will go to a hostile country as an English teacher but also work with the local Christians behind the scenes. Anyway, this requires money to get them trained and to get them there and get them back safely. People from our church and sister churches all give above and beyond our normal giving to help make this happen.


The Christmas tree issue is an interesting one. I have always understood that evergreen was an ancient symbol of eternal life. I don't know who came up with it first. Was it the Druids or did they just steal it from an earlier culture? The way I see it, it doesn't matter who came up with it first but rather what it means to whomever is using the symbol. To Xians we most certainly do tie significance to the tree. Yes, we stole... er um... coopted it from the peoples we conquered... er um... evangelized But I think that is great. People's cultures don't need to be changed by the missionaries. Christ will handle that in his own good time. Besides, our culture is no more superior to God than anyone else's... in the grand scheme of things. The most important thing is that people come to know Christ, then and only then will the culture be modified from within by those who now see it in a new light.

. . : slicePuzzle

DL

Go ahead & label me ignorant to satisfy an edge you think you have over me.

If I take the view you have, from the outside looking in I could see it the way you do. A bunch of religious fanatics trying to spread their wealth as well as their errors in the world. And I agree that the Catholic church popes in those times wanted to make the grandest church in comparison with all the gradure to compare with the castles and palaces of kingdoms of the day. But I believe this was also an inspiration of Gods in making place christians could call the physical centerpoint of its faith. Many Christians have longings to visit the Vatican because for us its the history of faith that we can actually set our eyes on. The only ones concerned about riches of the vatican are mostly anti-catholics because they lack the understanding of the precious history of christianity. Catholics could never think of the pope selling pieces of our religious heritage.

I know you have mentioned St. Frances on more than one occasion, and it seems you are uneducated in his history. He highly respected the Catholic church and its pope and would only start his order if the pope ok'd it. He was elected to sainthood and so popular a saint today for all people of every denomination. He is especially known for this prayer which says nothing of the grandure of Rome:

Lord, Make Me an Instrument
- attributed to St. Francis of Assisi (1181-1226)

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love:
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Jade, I'm not on the outside and I think the church could do with a bit less of the "trimmings". And I think we need to be careful to make sure that what we consider to be "precious" to Christianity is in line with what our Father considers to be precious. From my reading of scripture, reaching the lost has to take the highest priority. Everything we as Christ's body do must be in that context or we run the risk of falling outside of His will. And please understand that this is pointed at all of us and not just the Catholics. But it is easy to see where the Catholics have put much of the wealth because the jewels and gold tend to be quite eye catching.

. . : slicePuzzle

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Go ahead & label me ignorant to satisfy an edge you think you have over me.

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I've done no such thing.

I have asked you to address my points.

But, as you have since the very beginning, you instead turn overly defensive to comments that you seem to imagine have been made.

Yes, I am quite sure St Francis was loyal to the church, and obeyed the pope. That has nothing to do with my point.

The idea that the history of the christian faith is housed in the Vatican is - IMO - abusrd. The true history of the christian faith lies far more in the rural abbeys, in the lives of the peasants, in the books that were reproduced by monks, furthering the possibility of education.

The history of the catholic political and corporate orgainzations do, however, lay in the Vatican.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-08-2003).]

Bugs I know we are all in the learning stages of christianity and everyones insights on faith are gifts to all who have ears to hear. Christian churchs are separated bodies who have a brotherhood in Jesus.

In reference to gold and jewels, I had the opportunity to see the treasures of the Vatican at a museum here in Houston. It was under very tight security. The vatican rarely lets these items be viewed and some had never been viewed b-4, but on a cap beaded with jewels that was a gift from Napoleon had the largest emerald recorded in the world on top of a pontiffs cap. It was so magnificant. I saw it as a treasured religious article, not an item that shows wealth of a powerful religious instiution. It was awsome to see such a treasure given to a pope. All the items had such a rich history. Some of the oldest bibles that were written on parchment paper by monks was unbeliveable. It had beautiful writing with colored large letters that started a book of the bible. I couldn't believe that monks actually took a whole year to complete a bible. One gift was a beautiful tapestry of the current Dali Lama that he did himself for Pope John Paul. It was one of the stand out items that everyone wanted to see. I felt so in awe to see history. A history for all christians to see no matter what denomination because its their history too.

DL

Well, have you ever read the history of christianity from the very beginnings. Not a bias book but a secular book from the library on the history which will give you the facts without lies and distortions. I know you wont be suprised on how many schisms, wars, abuses and changes the catholic church has experienced in its 2000 years. Its still faces dissent from within and hatred outside but regardless it has reamarkable staying power. Where other denominations are caving in to the social culture of evil today, the catholic church does not, will not and never will. You have to wonder that it could possibly have a have a powerful force not of this world that could carry it thru the end of time.

You "have to wonder" a lot of things, Jade
But none of that has anything to do with the rest of this conversation....

Ok DL I'll stop. I tend to get carried away with myself and could go on and on.

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Maybe they could do it the way jesus did.

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Exactly! That was a much better way to say that, Thanx DL.

But they are. Please wake up and smell the coffee. The body is made up of many people which travel the world to spread the gospel. Have you ever heard of missionaries. They leave their home and families in the name of Jesus. Tons of them are catholics too.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-08-2003).]

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I tend to get carried away with myself and could go on and on.

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Yup, yup, yup.
Constantly jumping topics and never sticking to one, because the defence seems to be down and you cant really answear the questions.

Jade, why is it so awesome to see some old geezer who claims to be "holy" get the treasure?

He might be involved with mafia, whatever, you never know.

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But they are. Please wake up and smell the coffee.

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Jade, you asked how a church was supposed to evengelize without money.

The answer was "maybe they could do it the way jesus did"

You say they are - well if they are, then they don't need so much money....

Yes, I understand that money does go toward helping the poor, and of course that is a good thing.

The only point was that you don't need huge gold-infested marble buildings and a horder of bishops living high on the hog at the people's expense in order to spread the word of Jesus.

DL

Where is the proof they live high on the hog? Thats news to me.

How come the president of the US of A lives in a grand mansion white house, with splendor and a retreat home. His own personal jet. Expensive foods, luxurious decorated rooms in the white house. No expense is spared while American adults & children are starving and homeless? I imagine his forks and spoons are made of real gold. So whats the difference?