Topic awaiting preservation: Need some advice

So I've been talking to this one girl online for about a year now. I met her in a chat room and I've never met her in real life. She lives across the country. She's 17 years old.

She has the lowest self esteem of anyone I've ever met. Recently, maybe about one night a week, she's become super depressed and constantly talks about killing herself. She thinks I'm smart so she asks me to tell her of a way to commit suicide that won't be painful. She says the only thing keeping her from doing it is the fact that she can't find a way that won't hurt. On these nights I've tried everything I can think of to help her feel better, but she always brings the topic back to the question of how should she do it. These conversations only end when she has to go to bed or leave for some reason, and the next day she feels fine and often apologizes.

She refuses to tell anyone else (friends/family/counselors/anyone), because she says they'll stop her and she doesn't want that. I can't even really figure out why she's suicidal; it would make sense to me that there are things wrong in her life and she sees suicide as the only remaining option, but she insists that she simply "wants to die". If there's something deeper (and there probably is, of course) then I can't see it.

I am, unfortunately, fairly powerless in this situation. My only influence has been what I say to her over IM, and when she gets this way, that doesn't count for much. I can't convince her in any way to try to find any sort of alternative solution.

Tonight she said she planned to go to an empty house that her family happens to own, and take a bottle of sleeping pills. Again, nothing I could say would change her mind; the only difference between tonight and all the other nights like this is that her desire to die has overcome her fear of pain. I waited until she left and then IMed one of her friends whose screen name I had managed to aquire. I explained the situation. The friend gave her a call on her cell phone (which was ignored), and gave me her home phone to call her parents.

(un?)fortunately, her parents had decided to go to the other house for some reason, so she cancelled her plan and she was the one who picked up the phone.

So now she's understandably pissed off that I (a) told her friend and (b) intended to tell her parents. She also stated that the next time she decides to attempt suicide, I won't hear about it in advance. This is the reason that it's unfortunate she didn't attempt it tonight, since maybe I could have talked to her parents and stopped the whole thing. In addition, since her friend knows and may tell her other friends, she feels an increased urgency to kill herself so that no one thinks she's just looking for attention.

So now, it seems like my only option is to call her parents and explain the situation and let them take care of it. Is that really the best thing to do? It'll absolutely destroy my friendship with her, for one thing.

I just need the opinions of some outsiders on the whole situation.


 

Tell the parents. Heck tell anyone that would listen.

It's been said that those who truely want to kill themselves don't use pills. They do the job properly. The pill tactic is one used by those screaming for attention.

Help her find some.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

i agree: call her parents as fast as possible, i think thats the only way to stop her.


B | T | E | P | L

you dont need this kind of pressure in your life. seems to me if she does do it and you find out she's done it then you're gonna be blaming yourself for not finding away to stop it and that could torment you for a long time.

On the other hand if she doesn't do it and carries on talking to you then you're just going to get the stress of trying to talk her out of it, again, for a long time. The only way you win is to switch tactics on her. Tell her you've done your best and you've played her game long enough. If all she wants to talk about is suicide then you'd rather not talk to her at all.

If she's gonna do it, she'll do it regardless of anything you say or anyone trying to stop her and if she really wanted to do it then a simple thing like her parents staying in wouldnt have stopped it. You cant save the world mate.



(Edited by Morph on 07-30-2004 09:14)

well... last time this happend to me, I was close enough to actually show up and prevent her from doing it, that made things a lot easier.
(nearly bloody froze to death though...)


As for her parents: call them, but don't expect too much - after all they have a 17 year old who's depressed and apperantly don't know/don't care about it. Or maybe they're just as helpless as you.

What she needs is professional counceling. Work on that. Though if you're in the us, you might have a hard time finding someone who does not just prescribe an antidepressant or five.

My best guess would be she is in need off attention. So give her attention, positive attention. Talk about the nice things. Whenever she starts about suicide say you don't like the subject and than say something positive about her. After that switch to another subject music or art for instance. Or dig a bit deeer to the positive things. Watch out for too much compassion! Maybe you could use skype to contact her. An real voice is more convincing than some textlines in an IM program. Also there is less to hide behind.
When i had troubles my social worker told me:

quote:

---

"When people are talking, about suicide and ways to commit it, they mostly need attention and care, howevever when they stop talking about it, there is some danger they will do commit suicide. When they are one there one and don't want to talk to the outside world alarmbells should ring and action is needed"

---

I don't know if this holds any truth though.

Once i had an class mate how was constantly nagging about suicide and every time when something fun happens he was complaining about being left out and that he was going to commit suicide. Thus making the fun thing bad. One day i was in an dark mood myself and i got angry on this guy. I asked him to why he did not do what he was talking about. He was baffled and kept silent. His silence made me even more angry and i started talking louder. Then i told him that i knew the answer, i told him that he was a coward, that he was to cowardish to commit suicide. By now he got his breath back and he asked me why i did said all this. He spoke with an realy hurt voice. Making me even more angrier so i yelled at him that he was to cowardish to live his own life. So he would certainly not have enough courage to end it. And with this words i left the school canteen. The guy was furious at me but he got some new clothes the next day and started doing things in class and with his life. Over time he start less and less about suicide and he even enjoying life in general.
I lost contact long ago but i guess he is leading an pretty normal life. Maybe my reaction was wrong but it triggerd somehow an proces where he start thinking about himself and didi some improvements.

I don't know i any off this is usefull but i hope your friend will see that her live is an really big gift to her she might enjoy a long time.

good Luck

------------------------------
Support Justice for Pat Richard

(Edited by Rinswind 2th on 07-30-2004 13:27)

It's a difficult one for sure, and you've obviously built some kind of bond with her having known her for a while, but really you're not responsible for her. You've already told her friend, one that you could rightly assume is closer than you, and really they should be the one that sorts it out. I would have to agree with Morph's point in general.

Teenage girls about that age are often heavily emotional and the fact that she is confiding in you about this seems to me that it's blatantly a cry for attention.

She's getting angry with you for telling people about this, but really you're the one who should be having a go at her, why the hell do you want to know about someone you've never met commiting suicide? Why do you even want to talk about it at all? What's going on here, does she think this is acceptable conversation to be having with someone she's never met, it's a bit heavy going and really she shouldn't be off loading all that emotional baggage onto you, and nor should you accept it, try and snap her out of it with some well placed comments.

I don't meant to sound like I don't care here, but you really shouldn't be entertaining her if indeed this is a cry for attention, and if it's not, which I doubt, then you should still try and convince her that she's got to stop going on about it because dwelling over something so much is only going to make matters worse.

But I don't think she needs professional counceling, she's 17 for chrissakes, she just needs to grow up and get a goddamn life! I agree with Rinswind's points here.

Cheers,

Blaise.

This can often be a cry for attention/help - the unfortunate problem is that even if her intention is not actually to commit suicide, she may well end up doing it anyway.

I remember reading about a young girl who swallowed a whole bottle of painkillers. When she woke the next day feeling well, she thought that she must be okay; she thanked her lucky stars (as her mind had changed) and went on about her daily life. It was only when she fell desperately ill some hours later that the tragedy unfolded.

By the time the symptoms had shown themselves, she was beyond help and died in agony.

For the love of everything you hold dear - tell her parents, encourage her to seek help (a school counsellor, perhaps), but do try to remain her friend (as she obviously feels more able to confide in you). Simply having someone to unleash her woes upon may be all the help she needs.

Do nothing, and you may always wish you'd said something more...

quote:

---

She's getting angry with you for telling people about this, but really you're the one who should be having a go at her, why the hell do you want to know about someone you've never met commiting suicide? Why do you even want to talk about it at all? What's going on here, does she think this is acceptable conversation to be having with someone she's never met, it's a bit heavy going and really she shouldn't be off loading all that emotional baggage onto you, and nor should you accept it, try and snap her out of it with some well placed comments.

---

Always remember it's kind of easier to tell about your problems to people you may never really know, than people closer to you, because you are really worried/afraid of what they think about it.

And given the state slime is already on, the best thing he could do is prevent this tragedy to happen. Stopping caring about her right now would only make your feel really bad on the inside if you ever know it happens.

__________________________________


Sexy Demoness cel

quote:

---

Slime said:

So now she's understandably pissed off

---

What kind of asshole would you be if you hadn't done what you did? You did the right thing man.

She should appreciate your concern. Bitch. j/k

quote:

---

Blaise said:

But I don't think she needs professional counceling, she's 17 for chrissakes

---

You saying teens never kill themselves? think again.

ok. so why do u not want her to commit suicide?
seems like a dumb question, but it's critical.
do u care if >she< lives?
or is it just like, life is precious, yadaydayada.
is it to not be guilty if she gets it done and u coulda stopped it?
that's 3 valid reasons..only one of which matters to her.
she's talking about trust, and u changed the rules.
if ur in that world, all that positive crap is just that...crap.
yeah, she maybe needs professional help..that's the usa game. turn everything over to the suits and they'll zombify u into whatever u want.
maybe she needs to be cared about..as >>her<<. that's hard to do over im, sometimes.
imho u need to get ahold of her by im or whatver, and apologise. and say >why<u were willing to interfere. if it's >really< becuase u care about her, it will come across. if it;s for some other reason, then that too will come across. and if it's about her, and not u, the door is open for u to offer her a place to be safe, here she can begin to talk about why life sux. this crap about 17yoa girls are like that, is yeah,,, so? and 40 yoa dudes are gfenerally all about their latest toys and accomplishemnts and cv and humvee and whatever. and one is no more phony than the other.
and 17 yoa often have the job of figuring out that given that this is true...why bother.
u also haven;t said if she on any kind of chemicals now, by her choice or some voodoo preist. several o the more profitable adnti-depressant dealt in the usa cause suicidal ideation as a way of release...
which is counterintuitigve to the whole if ur thinking about suicide ur in toruble thing. but very consonant with perls, berne, and those who realise that thinking is regearsing, and one can choose no to take the role.
in earlu morning light i see visions of eternity, and all the things that wait for me, i relaise, and thn i see:
that suicide is painless. it brings on many chanfges, and i can take or elve it if i please.
the game of life is hard to play, ur gonna lose it anyway, the losin card i'll someday play and this is why i have to say....
and she knows that.

quote:

---

jbdances said:

she's talking about trust, and u changed the rules.

---

Yeah I guess my perspective must be fucked-up.
Buy her the pills and shove them down her throat while she slices her wrists and dies.
At least you know she died "trusting you"

Assuming my black pills are not in effect right now, it is just me or something smells strange about jbdances?

__________________________________


Sexy Demoness cel

*sniff* Yeap...definitely smelling something strange. Pro-suicidal non native speaking english, that or bacon.

Let me put it this way: when I was 14, the girl who lived next door to me, a girl I had known since I was five, killed herself with her father's gun, and I wish to any powers that be that someone had stopped her.

You may not know this girl, you may not 'care whether she lives or dies' on a personal level, but I guarantee you that those people do exist and they won't be upset that you cared enough to call. You say she's mad at you for almost telling her parents? She also says she wants to kill herself, so her feelings aren't exactly a road map to a happy life right now, are they?

Imagine that one of your best friends killed themselves, and that the person who knew how they were feeling hadn't told anyone. Imagine the feelings of helplessness, of anger and of loss. Now, pick up the phone...



Evil in theory, not so much in practice...

I hate to be the one to throw this idea into the mix, but is it possible she's one of those 17 year old girls who go on the internet and just talk about commiting suicide too often? The internet is a common source of melodramatic would-be cliff-jumpers, but hardly any of it is every genuine. But, that's just in my experience.

code-headed intern

Sure thats a possibility Alexer but is that the chance you'd be willing to take with a friend?

I think you did the right thing by informing a friend and you should continue to try and reach her parents. While she might trust you enough to tell you her problems, it'll be a lot easier for those close to her to find her help. Also, you might want to try talking to her by phone now if you already don't. Since you have her # it might build a more personal connection.

Slime, there is no ideal solution that I can offer you my friend. You have been put in a very distressing situation by this person.
You can't afford to do anything else now but to take it seriously. This person has implicated you in a very real way and you must act accordingly. I think you must inform her legal guardians, this I presume would be her parents, of her plans.
If you fail to do this, and she manages to kill herself one way or another, you could be brought to law, by the police or the parents.
I am worried for you in this matter Slime, you are in a very vunerable position. I know you want to do what is best for this girl, this may be all you can do at the moment.
You also need to act sooner than later.
My thoughts are with you in this matter.
If you would like to talk further, and you think I could be of help, please do not hesitate to contact me, either by email or IM (ICQ: 208675782)

:::tao::: ::cell::

Do you really want a friendship with someone so bent on seeking the pity of others, if that's indeed what she's after?

It may all be a ruse, but in that case that it isn't, she's constantly talking about offing herself for either of 2 reasons:

1) As aforementioned, she may want attention... In which case she needs help.
2) She wants help, but is too afraid to directly reach out for it. In this case, it would be for her own well-being that you contact her parents and let them know of her problems.

It's a breach of trust, yes, but for what cause? Like someone above said, would you rather let her die with your trust, or live to see another day? There's always forgiveness, but not if she's dead.

Goodluck with your situation.

"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

Christ you all talk as if you were experts on the subject but I bet none of you has ever committed suicide, at least not successfully.

quote:

---

Christ you all talk as if you were experts on the subject but I bet none of you has ever committed suicide, at least not successfully.

---

...Now there's an observation for the ages.

I suppose you have committed suicide before? What the fuck...

Slime specifically asked for our suggestions, so don't turn this thread into your own little spiral of opinions. If it's not relevant to Slime's situation, then respect the thread and shut the fuck up.

"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

Maybe I've not committed suicide this time round, Shooting Star, but I've known a handful of people who have (successfully, too).

I can't say I've really entertained the idea very much myself, but I've known countless who have.

My own father suffers bouts of depression where he explains (concisely, eloquently, and utterly convincingly) the legitimacy of the logic behind his decision to end his own life. He has only tried it once to my knowledge.
I didn't know whether to cry for him or give him a kicking for being so stupid (academic really, as he's 6'7" and built like a brick shit-house - therefore, a less agressive approach better ensured my own safety under the circumstances)...

...but at the time, I could see why he wanted to do it.
It doesn't mean I wanted him to, and I contrived ways of stopping him from going too far, but I could still see - through everything he suffered - just why he might want to.

Things aren't too bad of late, and I'm taking him for a blast in Amsterdam (for his birthday) soon, so he's got something to look forward to - he's never been there, though he always wanted to go.

Anyway, I'll be quiet now...

(Edited by White Hawk on 07-31-2004 06:35)

She hasn't been online today, which is strange. She didn't answer her cell phone, and when I finally got up the courage to call her home phone (for her parents), no one answered. So I don't know what the deal is.

I'll try again tomorrow.

[edit: By the way, I'm pretty sure Shooting_Star's comment was just a joke, due to the complete absurdity of it.]



(Edited by Slime on 07-31-2004 06:45)

quote:

---

synax said:

then respect the thread and shut the fuck up

---

you're not really paying attention, are u ..ahole

quote:

---

Slime said:

Shooting_Star's comment was just a joke, due to the complete absurdity

---

joke yes, meant to be absurd no.

your friend is depressed Slime - does she have the intent or not?
she probably doesn't even know herself..so give her the benefit of the doubt and support her...none of us here are qualified to work a suicide hot line.

I would take her seriously..a person exhibiting normal behaviour does not go on and on about killing themself.

(Edited by Shooting_Star on 07-31-2004 07:16)

Shooting_Star, you have no idea what qualifications people here have.
I would suggest, if you have nothing helpfull or constructive to add, that six posts from you is enough for this thread.
Slime, courage indeed is needed, this is not an easy thing to do, and you have been place in an impossible situation.

:::tao::: ::cell::

Slime my thoughts are with you, Whatever you do, do not blame yourself. I do hope everything turns up allright. It's hard for us to judge the situation right. So we might give the wrong advice, i am not covering my ass but just warn you and everybody to be extremly carefull with the things to say.

Slime keep trying to reach her or her family untill you know whats going on. If they have just a fun day with the whole family they will be surprised about your worries when you reach them. This could be a good reason for a family talk which in his turn could lead to some help. If there is something serious like she had tried to commit suicide they are probably already starting some help traject. If however the worst case scenario is happening you need to support the family as good as possible. In that case we as members of your "online-family" (in need for a better word) will support you as good as we can.


Good luck i wish you and your friend the best .

------------------------------
Support Justice for Pat Richard

(Edited by Rinswind 2th on 07-31-2004 14:13)

Shooting_star, please refrain from abusive behaviour on this board. It is neither wanted nor appreciated. Stick to the thread, and don't criticise for the hell of it. Criticism should be contructive, everyone, even the criticiser, should be able to take something good away from it. I don't see that here so far. I would suggest you take Tao kind and calm suggestion, before someone else comes along and gives it to you with more force and less patience.

Thankyou for your time on this, back to the real subject of this thread:

Before I begin, yes, I am not 'qualified' to expound upon this subject, but i do have experience in it. On both ends of the scale, and I won't go any further into that.

Slime, my friend, I feel for you. I have been through exactly this kind of situation before. From my experience, there are two kinds of people in this situation. There are the attention-seekers, and there are the people who are serious about commiting the act. Those who are serious won't tell you about it. Why? Becuase there's the potential that you could stop them, and they don't want that. The attention seeker will tell you about it, mainly becuase they want you to pay lots of attention to them and shower them with sympathy. This, however, is not the be all and end all of it. There are people who are considering it, and need help. And there are other people, and other circumstances. Welcome to the rich tapestry that is humanity. I don't really know what you have here, but I must say that I will always feel you made the right choice by telling someone. The whole preciousness and sanctity of life bit aside, it's her family and friends you're thinking of too. The thing alot of suiciders seem to forget is that it isn't all about them, but that their actions have wide-spread repurcussions amond their entire community. The kind of pain it causes, and here I am talking from personal experience, four times so far, is crippling for some people, becuase they feel that there's something that they could have done. They knew the signs were there, but didn't realise it until afterwards, or they could have looked harder. They could have done something to stop it. That kind of guilt never leaves you. Again, I know this all too well.

And yes, the suicider has usually got an intensly logical reason behind why they would do it, and it may even make sense. But that doesn't make it right. There is more to human existance than logic. In fact, if you think about it, logic has almost nothing to do with human existance. We are not (and here my trekky past shows through) Vulcans, after all.

So Slime, I think you did entirely the right thing. She may not realise it now, but if she ever does, well, I can't say she'll thank you for it. Some do, some don't. Just know that what you have done is the right thing, and take that with you.

Oh, and life is sacred. No matter what anyone may say.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

quote:

---

synax said:

respect the thread and shut the fuck up

---

I'm abusive???
Well, I think you're an idiot..and yes I know you can ban me. so go for it.

If you take your head out of your ass now, and you take the time to " read " my comments and then have someone explain them to you, you will will note that the advice I gave *SLIME* was meant to be constructive. Slime, if you felt I was making light of the situation, then I apologize - but if you read all my posts, many with the <sarcasm> tag off when it should have been on for the intellectually challenged, you'll see i was condoning both your behaviour and your approach. in my opinion, which i'm no longer allowed to express, you did the right thing.

this is my last comment in this thread: nobody here has the qualifications to prevent a teen from suicide. if you do have them, post, and i'll apologize. by qualifications i mean the educational and/or professional credentials and a track record - i.e how many teens have you saved from death? so watch the type of advice you give because we're talking about a young woman's life here.

(Edited by Shooting_Star on 07-31-2004 15:04)

Yeah, you're right. What does life experience have to offer for situations like this? Or for any situation for that matter.

We should all heed Shooting_Star's advice and clam up when we have problems, unless we're "certified" to give a response...

I thought you gave some pretty good advice in the beginning of this topic, Shooting_Star, but I guess it was all for naught.

You don't need years of professional education just to talk to someone.

Slime, have you considered calling the police in her area and alerting them? If you feel the situation is that dire, then perhaps it may be the next logical step. I'd say if you can't get ahold of anyone by tomorrow (your time, wherever you are), then call them explaining that someone you know may have tried to hurt themself.

"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

wow, what melodrama.

all of which is seriously detracting from the main point here...


Slime: my biggest piece of advice is this - if your friendship at this point consists mainly of her talking about killing herself while you try to talk her out of it, there really isn't much of a friendship to worry about ruining.

It's a tough position to be in however. What do you know of her parents? Maybe her parents are the type of people who would only cause more harm if they were told of this. Maybe not.

On the other hand, maybe she knew very well that she would not be able to go to this 'other house' to kill herself that night. Maybe it was a very safe lie (maybe their isn't actually another house in the first place).

To turn it again, it was said above that people who commit suicide do so discretely, without telling anyone. Well....that may be the case most of the time, but *certainly* not all of the time. And of course, is telling one person that you only know online and who lives on the other side of the country *really* telling people? It's a very safe way of talking about it without having to talk about it.

So in conclusion, it's almost impossible to say for sure what the right course of action is at the moment. You need to go with what you feel is right, and you need to figure out how serious these thoughts actually are - is she looking to kill herself, or is she looking for someone to care enough to talk her out of it? You give her some serious affirmation by doing so, but as 'jbdances' (hmmm...?) says - your reason for doing so will make a difference as to how much it actually means to her.

Shooting_Star, as I'm sure you are aware, there is no such qualification or experience that can prevent anyone from committing suicide. However;
I have been a social worker working with children aged from (about) ten to eighteen years, for over fifteen years. Some of those children were depressed, self harming and had tried to commit suicide on more than one occasion. No one person works alone in the care of such people, and it takes time to really "make a difference".
I am qualified as a social worker and a counsellor by experience and certification.
While I do not have a list of all the children?s lives I personally have saved, I have had children that I have cared for in the past come up and thank me for making a positive difference to their lives.

:::tao::: ::cell::

amusing. so somebody doesn;t keyboard well, and doesn;t have the knee jerk responses, there's something suspciious about asomeone qualified who does this stuff (dealing with people 11-20 with issues where their bodies and opportunities are getting damaged) 4-80 hours a week and talks about re-establoishing the dialog and that's being pro-suicide?
keep having the jerk reactions and i'm sure u'll get a saitsfying outcum.
i got a link to this thread by a regular poster who knows i deal with this stuff....and i added what is imho the only relevant point: get the dialog going again, becuase this chick is gonna do >something< to fuck herself up, one way or another. and yeah, as mentioned above, her parents/surround may be part of the issue, but that caveat is already off the table. she needs to talk to somebody. at some point it probab ly needs to be a professional. and she'll beleive that if and when somebody she trusts shows her it's worth the effort.
and given the described scenario, there's currently a problem with trust. so that's first.
it may be unfortunate that humans don't behave in generated on the fly css style sheet regularity, but that's the way it is.
a great many women in the usa in the years between puberty and maturity get crushed by the weight of their perceptions.
many of them are in fact on mood regulators which increase suicidal ideation:
http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/3rdQtr_2003/record0024.html
because in the usa any general practitioner or pediatrician is free to prescribe effefor or paxil without a psychiatric referral, or even more than 30 seconds worth of interview.
as noted, suicide often is "logical." and that's an essential part of the trouble with presenting the "life is good" argument. becuase people don;t commit suicide becuase of life: they commit it becuase of themselves.
so yeah, keep trying to make contact. especially if u care about >her< and not ur involvement in a difficult situation.

^^^ looks like zigot_bahn isnt an only child ^^^

DL-44 said:

quote:

---

You need to go with what you feel is right

---

sounds pretty good to me. I think you need to do what is right for you so that when its all over, you can say you gave what you believe was your best response and one you can live with regardless of the outcome.
be true to yourself before being true to others