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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:02

Inspired by well done video about the new american century

poi, I don't think it's fair at all to equate Britain or France to the DPRK or Iran.

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poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:14

Yep, I agree, and hope most people do.
But actually it emphasizes the next sentence, that is : "None of us really matter to them."

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:19

There is no way one can compare the US to North Korea. I saw an interesting documentary in Germany last night an North Korea. About using humans as test subjects for Biological and Chemical tests. Needless to say, the subjects do not survive. Horrible, horrible stuff.

The US doesn't do stuff like that.

We also don't starve our people to the point where they have to eat one another to survive, and do.

(Edited by WebShaman on 11-05-2004 16:19)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:19

And you know what? That is just not true. You matter a great deal to us and to the president. Modern democracies do not make war on one another. That is why it is *our* interest to foster as many of them as we can.

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:21

WS, the video didn't equate the US with N.Korea. It suggested that the US will attack Britain and France after it has attacked Iran and N.Korea.

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Blaise
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:35

I think the point being is that they could do and would do if they saw it to be beneficial to them, naturally this is more a government issuse than a 'people of America' view.

(Edited by Blaise on 11-05-2004 16:36)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:41

O_o!!

Man, I didn't even notice that!! Of course, I have no sound at work...hehe. That will teach me.

The US attack Britian and/or France?

Wow.

Well, I don't think that such will happen. I would hope that such would be unthinkable.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 11-05-2004 16:53

WebShaman: Don't worry, there's little chances that will happen. We have WMD and nuclear weapons for real.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-05-2004 17:00

It *is* unthinkable to anyone that can see. But apparently not everyone can. Our spats with France and Germany are like disagreements between friends or family. Just because we are related or friends does not mean that we don't have serious arguments from time to time. I'm not suggesting that the things we disagree on are trivial, I'm just saying that the idea of ever attacking one another militarily is simply absurd. That is why the video is really just propoganda and not a serious analysis of the situation. But it looked really good.

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poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 11-05-2004 17:10

the video does not suggest nor say that the US will attack IRAN, NORTH KOREA, FRANCE or BRITAIN. It uses these countries as exemple to say that none matter for the Project for a New American Century.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-05-2004 17:26
quote:
...which includes in its toolbox the unbridled use of war in clearing a path for US interests. The will to attack Iraq came entirely from this visible yet sinister group. September the 11th was merely the pretext. Bush is merely the figurehead.

And so who's next you wonder, Iran, North Korea, France, Britain. None of us really matter to them.

I think it most certainly does suggest it. Every phrase in that video was as carefully crafted as it's slick visuals, IMO.

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Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 11-05-2004 20:43

I really have nothing to add except to second everything Bugs and WS have said above.

We do care about other nations, and I think this propaganda piece paints us unrealistically and unfairly.

Ramasax

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 11-06-2004 07:09

I just couldn't resist saying, that although it is clearly propaganda, Mr. Bush has made it easier for the rest of the world to believe such. This is actually making the War on Terror harder, not easier. Through his actions, demeanor, and stubborness, Mr. Bush has created an atmosphere of fear and loathing against Americans. The ideal breeding and recruiting grounds for terrorists. The exact opposite of what we need.

Normally when one fights, one attempts to seize the advantage, not leave oneself more and more open. One tends to attempt to put the enemy at a disadvantage, and back him into a corner, not the other way around. Diplomacy at the right time, instead of the Stick, is often much more effective. Also, knowing on whom the Stick is to be used, and who Diplomacy, is a very useful tactic.

I would wish, with all my might, that Mr. Bush would discover what the words Tactics and tact means, but it is really too late for that now, IMHO. Funny how his father could be a master of such, but his son doesn't have a fucking clue.

(Edited by WebShaman on 11-06-2004 12:42)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 11-06-2004 11:55

Bugimus: the text does not say the PNAC explicitly plan to attack these countries, it says that if it could clear a path for US interests and they find a pretext, any of these countries could be attacked. Obviously for Britain and France it seems quite unlikely to happen due to the historical alliances, but I wouldn't say the same for the 2 others.

Ramasax: If you consider that this video depicts the will of the US citizens, I fully agree, it paints you unrealistically and unfairly. On the other hand if you consider that it depicts the will of war corporatism and the PNAC, which I do, it does not seem too far from the plot.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-06-2004 18:51
quote:
poi said:

Obviously for Britain and France it seems quite unlikely to happen due to the
historical alliances, but I wouldn't say the same for the 2 others.

We are in complete accord

WS, time will tell on this. So many of these things were said about Abraham Lincoln (civil war) and Ronald Reagan (Pershing missile deployment and "evil empire" stance) yet history has shown a different view in hindsight.

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Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 11-06-2004 21:17
quote:
If you consider that this video depicts the will of the US citizens, I fully agree, it paints you unrealistically and unfairly.


That is good to hear.

quote:
On the other hand if you consider that it depicts the will of war corporatism and the PNAC, which I do, it does not seem too far from the plot.


What plot? Did I not get this script?

Anyway, what in your mind gives this piece any sort of credibility?

It is very reminiscent in style to Nazi propaganda of the 1930s and 40s. Intentional or not in that regard, it is undoubtedly a very tantalizing and captivating vid, the use of symbology and the way shapes and words move, and although I disagree with it I find myself watching it over and over because of it. Josef Goebbels would be proud.

It says a lot of things in speculation, yet you and others, whom I know to be critical thinkers, do not question it. What I would like to know is why you are so quick to accept conspiracy theories about the US but never seem to look inside your own ranks. Why does it seem to me that our government/leaders are the focal point of evil in the world to many in the EU?

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 11-06-2004 21:21)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 11-06-2004 22:36

I think it is because we have more power and according to egalitarianism that in and of itself is a problem.

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poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 11-06-2004 23:49

Ramasax: I'm questionning the claims of this videos and of course I don't buy them. After all that's just a well designed video conveying a strong and polemical message.

Nonetheless the links between the PNAC, whom members and co-founders are in the Bush administration, Halliburton (and its subsidiaries) and the Carlyle group are not speculations. At the extreme minimun, there's a conflict of interrest as some individuals in the gorvernment are working for companies contracted by this government.

PS: the word 'plot' in my previous post should certainly be replaced by 'point'. I'm not quite sure.... At least, if there's one thing I'm sure it's that I should sleep more.



(Edited by poi on 11-06-2004 23:50)

UnknownComic
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: 2 steps away from a los angeles curb
Insane since: Nov 2003

posted posted 11-07-2004 01:05

This slick little video starts out with an assumption that really needs to be challenged;

Barry says he prefers to call the war on terror;

quote:
A Campaign Against Opposition To US Domination



It's a bit hyperbolic but for the sake of openmindedness we could let it slide.
However, immediately following this dubious statement is the words;

quote:
Others Prefer To Call It The Beginnings Of The Third World War.



errr..., which others? This is Highly Inflammatory Rhetoric


Then this guy goes on to tell us more of his dark opinions;

quote:
I Call It War Corporatism It Is the Door Of A New Facism Being Pushed Open



I mean I'm glad He came up with a fancy name for it, but it is still just conjecture that he quickly backs up with some factual nefariumati;

quote:
And Don't Be Fooled Not All Facism Looks Like Adolph Hitler



Well, duh!


But hey, then he includes us the viewer into his mindset with the use of the word WE;

quote:
The Reality As We See From The Iraqi Invasion Is That The Presidency Has Been Captured By The Most Powerful Elements Of This Coporatism



This plays into a lot of the conspiracy theories and other fears that people have. And of course he does not mention anything about how U.N. Member Nations were thwarting resolutions by trading with IRAQ. He has to keep this all neat and tidy...

But first he'll throw some fearmongering in;

quote:
And This Ghastly Molecule Aims To Turn The World Into It's Very Own Enslaved Global Market And The Plan Is Well Under Way



ooh! Scary!

Even Scarier? This guy justifies the twin tower attack;

quote:
The Attack By Al Qaeda On The World Trade Center Is Just One Response To It



Oh! So now Al Qaeda is the vanguard of freedom for the common world citizen?
Please, Give Me A Break!

This Video is indeed well done, it pushes all the psychological buttons. Here's one;

quote:
Neo Conservative Manifesto Which Includes In Its Toolbox The Unbridled Use Of War In Clearing A Path For U.S. Interests



Whoa! Damn Those Americans! Whoever wrote this is probably an excellent marketing person. This will probably lead to a lot of people hating America even more... Unless people can actually see through all this hysteria and misdirection;

quote:
The Will To Attack Iraq Came Entirely From This Visible Yet Sinister Group September The 11th Was Merely The Pretext Bush Is Merely The Figurehead



But the ending of this piece is the best. It paints the whole world vulnerable. It juxtaposes the only remotely plausible with the absurd and leaves it as fact.

quote:
And So Who's Next You Wonder, Iran, North Korea, France, Britain



And of course it all supports this absolute garbage;

quote:
None Of Us Really Matter To Them



Yeah! Nicely Done Video Indeed! A perfect way to paint Americans in the worst light possible.

______________
Is This Thing On?

Webbing; the stuff that sticks to your face.

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 11-07-2004 07:01

UC, who cares, they don't matter to us anyway right?

quote:
I'm questionning the claims of this videos and of course I don't buy them. After all that's just a well designed video conveying a strong and polemical message.



Good to hear poi, sorry for misreading you here. Despite our differences and the message I may send in some of my more heated posts, I do respect and care what other nations think of us, that doesn’t mean we always have to agree with each other, especially when it comes to the security of one's nation. And just because of that disagreement, it does not make the US a nation of children who do not understand the complex nuances of the world, as many over there profess through their attitudes toward us.

I also believe, as I have stated before, that there are some in the governments of the countries opposed to the war in Iraq who had deals on the side with the former dictator. There is plenty out there to back up these claims. This does not make me believe that all French were involved in this game, but that a few, in key positions of power were able to manipulate the vote before the UN. Similar reasons can also be found for both Russia and Germany. Not to mention Kofi Annan’s son, which explains his fervent opposition.

One could make a huge conspiracy out of that, perhaps I will take the time to compile it all into one happy little box which appears to make sense as the author of this video has done. Then again, I have better things to do with my time then dream up plots of what might be.

We may appear arrogant to you, and I can see how that is possible. We are the most powerful nation after all and our actions dictate many things in the world, whether intentional or not. Perhaps we need a Prime Directive of some sort.

I feel though, as a lot Americans do, that many Europeans consider us inferior. Partially because of the youth of our nation. Partially because we, well the majority of us anyway, still value things like patriotism and national sovereignty. We take pride in our nation, and that seems to be a turnoff to many of you. It is a true culture-gap.

quote:
Nonetheless the links between the PNAC, whom members and co-founders are in the Bush administration, Halliburton (and its subsidiaries) and the Carlyle group are not speculations. At the extreme minimun, there's a conflict of interrest as some individuals in the gorvernment are working for companies contracted by this government.



The thing one must realize about Halliburton is that they are a unique company because of their size and diversity.

There are few companies out there that have the ability to do what Halliburton can do. Kellog, Brown and Root is a fully owned subsidiary of Halliburton and the only other companies of any size that do the same work are Baker Hughs, Shulmberger and Weatherford.

Schlumberger is owned by a French concern and Halliburton is a partner of theirs. Baker Hughs deals in domestic work, and Weatherford only has 15,000 employees world wide and is too small to do what Halliburton can do. Halliburton has over 85,000 employees. Thus, they were not only the logical choice, but the only choice for this endeavor.

Let’s also talk about these no-bid contracts. Since 1998 the US has had $362 billion disbursed to business contractors on the basis of no-bid contracts through the Defense Dept. By those stats I'd say that Halliburton ($10.6B in no-bids under Bush) has been a modest benefactor of the system.

Do not forget as well that the president's administration is not responsible for making these choices. During the during the Clinton administration the DoD granted Halliburton no-bid contracts for work in Bosnia and Kosovo. Where was the outcry then? Is Bill Clinton part of the scheme as well?

Another part of the professed evil about Halliburton is the fact that Dick Cheney once ran the company. <sarcasm>We all know we should never endeavor to place anyone with the know-how and ability to run a multi-billion dollar corporation in a position of responsibility within the government. Making a success of yourself in the private sector should disqualify you from public service, while not having any actual discernable private sector job skills should be the supreme qualification.</sarcasm> ;)

Contrary to the claims being made in this video, the Bush administration is doing a lot of work to fight corporate corruption, convicting or indicting executives of Enron, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, Worldcom, Adelphia Communications, Credit Suisse First Boston, HealthSouth Corporation and others, including Martha Stewart.

The Department of Justice has brought charges against 20 executives of Enron alone, and its Corporate Fraud Task Force has won convictions of more than 250 persons since the beginning of Bush’s presidency. Bush also signed the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation in 2002, imposing stringent new accounting rules in the wake of the Arthur Andersen scandal.

On to the Carlyle Group. Not much to say here. Granted, there are Republicans (to use the language in the video, right-wing thinkers and Neo-Cons ) in the Carlyle group, but that is a one-sided view. And do not forget they are located in DC, the heart of the American political circus, so it is only a natural occurance.

Arthur Levitt, Clinton’s Chairman of the Securities & Exchange Commission has connections to Carlyle, as well as William Kennard, Clinton’s Chairman of the FCC. Also notable is Carlyle’s Senior Advisor, Thomas McLarty, Clinton’s White House Chief of Staff. One other notable person, a client of the Carlyle group from the beginning, whose investments are attributed to putting Carlyle on the map, George Soros. There are two sides to every tale, and you have to look at both sides to get them.

Ramasax

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 11-07-2004 14:42

And you don't see with a bad eye the fact that Bushr Sr. is an adviser of the Carlyle group whose subsidiaries have been contracted with no priod bid by the government of his son, Bush Jr. the actual President of the US ?.

Neither do you see with a bad eye the fact that Dick Cheney assisted to some meetings of Halliburton relative to the contracts in Iraq. Knowing his, yet former but, strong implication with this company, not involving himself personnally would have been welcome. No ?

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