Topic awaiting preservation: Would Jesus be a Christian? (Page 1 of 2)

If Jesus were alive today, would he be a Christian?

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I'm sorry, but this just seems like an asinine question.

Christians are so called because they worship Christ, and Christ is Jesus. So it would seem to be a pointless questions unless you have some specific direction you're trying to go in.

Christians by definition should be as "Christ-like" as possible. Think about that, consider what silence said, and if you still don't know the answer to your question... then maybe you need to ask a different question.

[edit] BTW, He *is* alive today [/edit]

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 12-24-2002).]

Well, if Jesus were alive today, you know how everyone says that Christ is going to come back, it would be assumed it would be in a different body. Would this person support the things that have been done in the name of Jesus since the erection of Christianity, or would he say that Christianity is not what Jesus meant it to be and perhaps create a new religion?

And silence, just because Christians worship Christ, does not necessarily mean that he would accept their worshiping of him. It is not his fault they created an entire religion based on his teachings.

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[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-24-2002).]

Well, chirstians by definition might be that way Bugimus, but christians in practice most often tend to be altogether different.

I don't see it as an assinine question at all - I think it has a very good point. The point being - in my mind - are you, as a christian, really being a christian at all? (generic 'you' there of course...)

I think the answer for a great many christians would be a very definite NO.

Jesus would not fit into any major christian denomination that I can think of.

{edit - gilbert snuck another post in while I was typing....

and then edited while I was editing

I think Gilberts 2nd point in his last post is very valid indeed. Just because a group of people are worshipping an entity, and try to be as like to that enitity as possible, does not mean that they are acting as that entity would wish, nor does it mean that they understand that entity well enough to live up to its standards.

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[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-24-2002).]

Very well, then since this is going in a very serious direction with very good points, I'll be happy to continue.

I think that a great many Xians don't have a clue about what Jesus really wants from them. This is because they are too busy being just like everyone else in this world, i.e. preoccupied with their own desires and their own ambitions. Christ taught us to look outward and to spread His message to all.

That task gets you killed, hated, doesn't pay real well, and can be downright uncomfortable in many instances. That is not to say it has to be like that in every circumstance but consider being a missionary in Saudi Arabia, for instance.

More to the question, I think that Christ is very pleased with many of the things His church has accomplished but of course He is horrified at many of the things that have been done in His name.

I don't believe any one Xian denomination has a corner on the truth but I think that the majority of the mainstream Xian groups are pretty close to the teachings of the Savior.

GN, do you have any specific things that have been done by Xians that you wonder whether Christ would approve of? I know there are things that are obvious and I assume you don't have a problem with them. I would be very interested in knowing what things you really wonder about.

erm maybe i am wrong but wasn't jesus a jew? why wouldnt he come back as a jew, after all the principles of christianity are just those of his teachings... and the christian faith is all about that ??? So technically speaking mary was a jew, joseph was a jew, they worshipped one god, along with with most of the other people at that time in judaism, so what i want to know, is technically speaking, christianity is in fact jesus's interpretation of the jewish faith ?????


just to throw a little spaner in the works.... over to you bugs

Maybe, but I think he'd want to celebrate Christmas.

Let me play the rabbi, tom, and answer your question with a question If He did come back as a Jew, would he come back as a Jew that believed that Christ was the Son of God?

Good point Bug I love reading your post.

In fact, in Revelation 3 beginning in verse 14 Jesus is talking to the church in Laodicea and says he doesn't like the way they walk, in fact, they make him wanna puke.

Jesus loves sinners but hates hypocrisy. You that seem to get off on bashing Christians that's don't live up to your standards should read through the Bible and watch them take a beating from the very God they profess too worship with their apostate mouths and serve with dirty hands. I'm sure you'll find it heartwarming?

Who can pass judgement? C'MON! We all have problems doing what we know is right.

Jesus is the Christian, yesterday, today and tomorrow. He's the standard by which we'll be judged, not the other way around.

Jason

I apologize if I came off a bit pedantic, now that I can see what type of question you're asking.

So, here's a brief point by point rebuttal:

quote:

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just because Christians worship Christ, does not necessarily mean that he would accept their worshiping of him. It is not his fault they created an entire religion based on his teachings.

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Actually, it is Jesus' "fault" that people worship Him. Jesus = God, although in human form. However, the Christian movement has run amuck somewhere along the line and overemphasized His humanity.

I do agree, however, that upon Jesus' appearance most Christian groups would get condemned out of hand.

quote:

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so what i want to know, is technically speaking, christianity is in fact Jesus's interpretation of the jewish faith ?

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Well, yes and no. Jesus and his family were Jews, and Jesus was well versed in temple law. Jesus' teachings were like an upgrade to the Jewish faith. The Pharisees and others had made the laws too rigid and followed them blindly. Jesus tried to teach them the spirit of the law does not conflict with the letter of the law.

And, Rabbi Bugs, I believe the answer is yes.

well, as far as i remember, along with i think islam, the jewish faith recognised jesus as a prophet, but dont recognise him as the messiah as foretold in thier prophecies. so it would raise an interesting kind of question, his faith (judaism) doesnt recognise him as the messiah (son of god) but he was the self proclaimed son of god.....

Just to clarify a little - I'm not trying to hold anyone to my standards, or to what i think their standards should be.

Just making a general comment that the majority of so called christians (at least the majority of the ones I've ever known) don't make any *attempt* to be a christian beyond lipservice.

They think the tradition and ritual of the church is enough.

The few times I've been in church as an adult, I've always been amazed at the mindless and emotionless ritual of it all...the thoughtless readings and the drone-like responses of the congregations.

It's just....limp and sad.

I've been in many different church of several denominations, and if they are anywhere near the teachings of the "saviour" in anything more than lipservice then I am Alfred Hitchcock.

They tend to be a haven for middle aged middle class housewives much like prescription pills for ailments they don't have. In fact many of them are dually hooked - the church and the pills.

Now don't get me wrong...I've known a good many christians including a handful of pastors (whatever title they might hold..) who have been friends, and who I have a profound respect for.

But the cattle that fill the churches are a different story, and everytime I'm in a church I can't help but silently scream that this is *not* what jesus was talking about.

ACT it. LIVE it. By all means preach it even! But don't stand in line and MUMBLE it or CHANT it without thought or care.

~wanders off mumbling~

quote:

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I'm not trying to hold anyone to my standards, or to what i think their standards should be.

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Hmm

quote:

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ACT it. LIVE it.

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Yea...

Anyways. I told my mom that I would go to church with her for the "Hanging of the Greens," ceremony at her local methodist church. They sing and prase, while devoted methodists to the church go around in uniform (long robes, red and green) hanging up wreaths 'n stuff in the main area of worship. I guess thats what I would call it, I am not completely sure of methodist terms, I was a catholic, so I couldn't call it chapel; unless I was Southern Baptist. In my little shitty town, *cough* ; Bibleville, if you don't believe in Jesus/God, your no one. And something really degrating that I noticed about all of this, and not just in my town, but rapidly spreading over the United States, is a Teen Youth Group based on worship. I go with my friend every once in a while, just for fun. They actually made me lead a prayer once! Heh. I find christian youth groups to be absolute Jack Shit. The majority of the teens that go to these youth groups rarely ever go for the "faith," of it. At least in the ones I've seen. And poorly I see, is that definately all of the ones I've seen, are completely blind to the other religions around them and refuse to do any sort of research before giving a based opinion on them. I mentioned something about Wiccan once to a few of my friend's friends. Heh. They just simply nodded and said, "Wiccan is a really stupid religion, it's just basically witchcraft and they are all going to hell." And then another said "Yea, wiccans are just gothic girls who look for some kind of relief in the world and chose some really strange way to worship to compensate for what they refuse to understand." Mmmhmm. I really don't go to that youth group much anymore.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 12-24-2002).]

I know where you're coming from Jamie and my spine shimmies same as yours when I see what you describe. When I have occassion to be caught in the middle of a church service such as you describe though I'm a lot less adamant that they are worshipping incorrectly as I may have once been. Along the way I've met a few people/couples/families from a "stale" denomination but they're fantastic Christians that live out their faith in everyday life by doing what Jesus would do, that is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, meet needs as they are gifted. I would have never known it by the way they worship in their church though. It takes all kinds and what one consideres meaningful submission and worship, another finds stale, or nuts, or bible-thumpy etc... goes back to the judgement thing, I am not qualified, noone's qulaified to judge the heart of another.

InSiDeR, I work with the youth group in my church, I've heard the kids say what you've said they say. I've even seen you at church sitting in the back and making fun of the minister as he speaks etc. I was you, dragged to church by parents or friends on occassion and I did 'worse' things than disrespect a youth minister while there. That was then, this is now. Like I was sayin to DL, it's a matter of perspective, revelation even.

Jason

quote:

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erection of Christianity

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On a more serious note, i think too many people rely on what some human says;
that the Bible says so and so and means such and such.
Since the Bible is supposedly THE Word of God, and if you're really curious:
"study to show thyself approved" "rightly dividing the word of God".

...but ( hypothetically speaking ) if Jesus did come back as someone else, I think he
would probably do basically the same as he did the first time, only in a modern
setting.

Ask a silly question...

Ahh, notice Jason, I said most . I am sure, being the person you are, that you may be a great youth leader. The one in my town is too, the kids just really don't give two sh*ts about god. They just go to socialize. Well at least, most of them do.

I don't make fun of ministers . If I came across that way, then I apologuise.

A desperate father went to talk to his Rabbi one afternoon.

'Rabbi, Rabbi! My son has converted to Christianity! Whatever shall I do?'

'Calm down my son...I shall consult God, and tell you what he says.'

The next day the Rabbi calls the father.

'Well, I just finished talking with God.'

'Well? What did He say?'

'He said to say He was sorry, but He can't help you. He's having the same problems with His Son.'

Bugs

quote:

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GN, do you have any specific things that have been done by Xians that you wonder whether Christ would approve of?

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Well, like the Catholics and their infestation of Mexico and South America.

Anyway, I think Jesus was more of a nature spirit sort of guy and I imagine he would be more into nature stuff like shamanism that Christianity, especially if he saw the way Christian's (or White America) destroy the forests, the ozone, and animals.

[edit--I guess DL-44 is Jamie, but it's sort of confusing... Maybe you could use DL-44 instead for those of us who don't know. Thanks JK)

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-24-2002).]

Insider, you are expert at taking things out of context. I really do believe you read the beginning and the end of a post and completely ignore the middle.

When DL said, "ACT it. LIVE it," that had not one thing to do with holding anyone to any kind of standard. His point was that people are simply going through the motions of religion without cognitively applying their beliefs to their lives. I don't see any standard stated there and no expectation of anyone to live up to one ? simply a challenge to people, if DL doesn't mind my summarizing it this way, to take it off autopilot.

Read. Then read again till you understand.



Unusual Texas travel. (A little Google bombing doesn't hurt.)

^yep. I wasn't going to bother trying to expalin that one - thanks Wes.

JK - Yup, there's that side too. And I won't knock anyone who lives their lives like that. But, again, soooooo many people that I've known that are self professed christians just plain don't.

And again, I'm not trying to herd all christians into this profile....just want to make it clear that there are a HUGE amount of people who do fit it.

InSiDeR, I was figureatively using you as an example, but honestly figured you yo have done those things, my mistake, sorry.

yep, HUGE as in MANY as in Matthew 3:13-14 and 3:21-23. You are not wrong in saying what you do, unfortunately.

Jason

Nope, read his whole message. I don't know what the hell you're talking about Wes.

Anyway, apology accepted Jason .

Arghh! BUG!

I doubt you would, Insider. No capacity for cognitive reasoning whatsoever.

You attempted to catch DL in a hypocritical blunder and you failed miserably because you didn't understand in the least what he was saying. You're seriously far less clever than you think.

Aside: ...no, I'll take this to another thread...



Unusual Texas travel. (A little Google bombing doesn't hurt.)

[This message has been edited by Wes (edited 12-26-2002).]

So, the conclusion I reach is that most Christian's do not live a live that is up to the standards set by Jesus, so therfore Jesus would probably be involved in some sort of nature based religion, perhaps shamanism, which actually isn't a religion at all. So, he would probably start teaching new stuff to help people again, and once he was dead, his followers would start another religion, perhaps Christism, or something.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

They said that he's a what is that religion called from Israel? i've forgot! i dunno but for me he's CATHOLIC!
Santo Papa rules!!! go with Pope! yehey!!!
Pope John Paul is a roman catholic right? just like me!

Ars Longa Vita Brevis!

This is an interesting question...I guess it depends on who you really mean...Jesus, the man...or as the Messiah. If he came again, as the man...I guess then, that any who followed him, would be called christians. Or not, depending...

However, if he came as the Messiah, then he would be Hebrew. Because the Hebrews don't believe, that Jesus was the Messiah...they are still waiting for him to come...the Messiah, that is...

Guess it depends, on how he came again...and in what form, and who believed in him...he'd probably be arrested, and put in a cell. Or the Vatican would denounce him. And the Muslims would probably hang him.

And would he come again, with the memories of what he was before? Would he be aware that he was the Jesus? With all memories, etc? Or would he 'claim' to be Jesus...as so many others have before? In that case, I don't think he would be believed...the christians would probably run him out of town...certainly, they would denounce him...

He would definitely have to 'prove' he was Jesus...and it would probably cause widespread conflict...

I really didn't want to get involved and maybe I should just remain out of this but I would like to only point out truth:

Jesus was Jewish and he would remain so

When Jesus first past away .. story is .. Peter and Paul discussed Christianity .. how would people become christians .. it is said Peter wanted christians first be from the Jewish decent .. meaning to be christian they must be jewish first .. Paul on the other head said .. to be christian they just need to accept Jesus as there savior no need for them to be jewish first


.::. cEll .::. 513

It's been a while since I could devote more time to this so forgive me if I answer a few things from further back in the thread.

Gilbert, I think the wholesale killing of indigenous populations in Mexico and South America was heinous. It was only slightly less heinous in our hemisphere. But the conquest by more powerful nations of the Americas was going to happen with or without the Church playing the role it did in the governments of colonial Europe. But even in the midst of that conquest there was some good missionary work accomplished but I am in no way excusing the actions of the murderers.

It is also important to remember that the indigenous societies were far from ideal. The fact that I am part Indian is proof of that and a story for another time.

Besides, a case can be made that Xianity's influence in the European nations partly mitigated the atrocities of those same societies. For example, the anti-slavery movement was primarily comprised of serious Christians in England, and same goes for the abolitionists in the US.

Anyway, you think that Christ was more of a "nature spirit sort of guy". I'm not exactly sure what you're basing that on but I have some good news for you. There is nothing in Xianity that mandates we destroy our environment. In fact, I would argue that being a "good steward" of this planet means just the opposite.

WebShaman, remember that according to Xian belief, Christ ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father till this very day. So when He comes again, he will most certainly retain all memories and everything else He has always had since before the creation of the world and there will be no doubt in anyone's mind it is Him. But I think I understand where you were coming from, you were describing how it would work if He came again like He did the first time as a man and all and not in His full glory.

RammStein, you're quite correct about Peter siding with the Jewish Christians who were teaching Gentile believers to first convert to Judaism before becoming Christians. The very first Church council debated that very issue but remember that God Himself smacked Peter around a bit and told him Paul had the right idea. That's all well documented in the NT.

. . : slicePuzzle

Not to get into the the apologetic aspect of this thread (since Bugs and others are doing such a good job with that as it is), I would just like to say that one reason I like the Asylum is because you inmates challenge me in my faith, whether you realize it or not. Reading the original question, and comments made by people like DL, makes me sit back and think--am I really living the life of a Christian, or is it just lip service? I do try to do my best, but how much of that comes from my own efforts rather than a complete trust in and surrender to Christ? Am I truly being humble, or is that humility really pride in disguise? Am I making a difference in the world around me--the difference that Christ intends for me to make? These are questions that I struggle with, and reading the threads here (even if I don't always participate) forces me to think about them again when I've grown lax.

I'm not sure why I'm posting this, since it's not really contributing to the discussion. I guess I just wanted to say thanks to everyone, believers and non-believers alike, for helping to keep me in line.

Well, for me Suho, the more important question is - are you doing good things? Are you a good person? If so, then the question of whether you are living a 'christian' life is completely irrelevant.

Is it humility, or pride in disguise? Well, humilty most often does stem from some sort of pride, and that's not a bad thing. If you don't have pride, you have no basis from which to be humble. You have to feel good about yourself before you can really do anything good for other people. That requires some level of pride. Over abundance of pride may be a fault, but lack of it is a far worse one. To me, more important than humility would be perspective.

*note of correction: Jesus was only half Jew, and half Levite (documentable) and rightful heir to kingship (Judah) and priesthood (Levi)

The Messenger, written by Victoria Armour-Hileman:

All that has been written about faith is incomplete without this:
When the knock comes with its unexpected certainty
do not go back for your coat.
If you are washing dishes, leave the water running
and do not stop to dry your hands.
Get up and leave the house you live in
even if it is the only house you have ever known.
Walk straight out into the night
with the lights still blazing behind you and the door ajar.
Don't expect the messenger to be waiting for you,
he is long gone, having left what he intended.
Take up the mysterious bundle
even though it is heavy and burns in your hands.
Even though it offers nothing, demands everything,
and has come without instructions.
Even though you do not remember
agreeing to be responsible.
There has been no mistake,
this is the journey you were born for.
And who can tell by weight alone
the burden from the gift?


how's that for perspective?

outcydr, the term "Jew" being used in this thread really refers to any descendant of Israel. I really don't think people here are making it exclusive to descendants of the tribe of Judah. But I think I see what you mean and correct me if I'm misreading you but Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through Joseph whereas Luke traces it back through Mary. That's where you're getting the Judah vs. Levi distinction, right?

Ohh got a question........Why the heck do we worship Jesus, if he himself said.....its recorded in the bible....."dont worship me, worship my father"

If christians believe that Jesus and god are one thing, why didnt he mentioned it......he simply said I am son of god......but my dad is, well up there.....so I dont think so he would be happy about christianity........

Ruski, Jesus did in fact claim to be God. Do you need the chapter and verse?

yes please...I would love to read more!!!

Ruski, let me point out that virtually everything we know about Christ comes from the people who lived and walked with Him while He was with us here on earth. The New Testament was written by these people who knew him and I believe they were honest about what they said *and* most importantly I believe they were accurate.

You mentioned that Christ told people *not* to worship Him. Well, I couldn't find that, could you please tell me where that is recorded? Maybe I missed it? What I did find were a few places where Jesus was worshipped and He didn't seem to have a problem with it at all:

Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." --Matthew 14:33

Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. --Matthew 28:9

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!". --John 20:28

For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." --Hebrews 1:5-9

The quote above where Thomas calls Jesus God shows you that the Apostles certainly thought He was. My favorite though comes from Christ Himself:

The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. --John 8:48-58

Jesus not only stated that He pre-existed Abraham but He used the title of God the Father in the words "I Am". You can see this here:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" --Exodus 3:14

You can be assured that there was no doubt to Jesus' audience that He had just claimed to be God because according to Jewish law to do that was a death sentence and that is why they tried to stone Him right then and there.

. . : slicePuzzle