Back when the web was still new I dabbled in web site design--when cutting edge technology was tables and spacer GIFs. I remember when CSS was first introduced I was pretty psyched about the possibilities, and then I actually tried to use it (incorporating it into dHTML). I ended up having to have a vanilla HTML page and a dHTML page, and after a while I got fed up with that and scrapped the dHTML. Then I got caught up in my studies and web design was the last thing on my mind.
Now, my MA thesis is looking like it's finally going to be completed, I have registered my domain name, and I'm getting ready to put together my site. I figured that after all those years (considering how fast technology is supposed to move) the compatibility issues would be all sorted out, but from what I've seen (here and elsewhere) this doesn't appear to be the case.
So what I want to ask you guys is this: should I build my site with CSS or should I stick with my trusty-dusty tables and spacer GIFs? I'm not going to have things flying around my site, so it shouldn't be too complex, but I'm a little apprehensive of the compatibility issues and not being able to do what I want.
So what do you think? Those of you who think I should go CSS, I would be greatly appreciative if you could point me to some tutorial or reference sites, since I have long since forgotten the little I used to know. I've rediscovered most of the basics, but I'm really interested in how to use JavaScript to make the layout dynamic (in other words, make the layout elements expand or contract depending on the browser window size--all stuff I could easily do with tables).
Although I haven't posted much here, I have been lurking about a bit and I have a great respect for everyone here. I highly value your opinions, and if you tell me it can be done I'll give it a shot (as long as you're willing to help me out along the way when I get stuck! ).
(By the way, in case you haven't noticed, I tend to be long-winded. This comes from having to write a thesis... bear with me )
Edit: Minor grammar and punctuation changes. Oh, did I mention that I'm somewhat anal retentive?
[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 04-19-2002).]
Well I think you'll get a few different opinions on that here. I faced the same dilemma. If you have good content structure, then I think you can pull off an entirely css layout with little compromise. There are a few tricks, it probably won't look exactly the same in NN4 as in the standards compliant browsers, but you can use a different style sheet for NN4 and it can still look nice. If you run into problems, post the page(s) and questions here and you'll find help readily available
The site I did with all css: www.airplusfootcare.com
A good start for general css: http://www.mako4css.com/index.htm
Some good sites for css layout: http://www.glish.com/css/http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.htmlhttp://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 04-19-2002 15:26
I can help out as much as possible. But here are a few things that you may want to consider:
1. What is your site for? If it is to promote you as a business, you may either avoid CSS since not everyone upgrades their browsers (silly people)
2. Some things that you can do with tables can be quite difficult with CSS. Just somewhat of a warning.
I love the look and feel of CSS sites. They seem much cleaner and more appealing to me.
You can do a lot of really cool things with CSS, just check out Sash's site and twitch^'s site. I can't remember his URL, I will post it later. twitch^ : http://miscminutiae.com
I am working on one right now, but me being the retentative person that I am lately, I am not going to upload it unitl I have it right.
There are a million sites out there. Some that come to mind are Gurus' Network, glish.com and bluerobot. There was a thread here not too long ago that listed a couple of really good CSS reference sites. You can always check out W3C.org. They have the CSS standards that you will want to familiarize yourself with.
Check out some of those sites and see what you think. When you get stuck, ask us a question or you can email me and I will see if I can help you out.
Give it a shot, I think that after working with it for a little while you will really love what it has to offer. I will post some more link later on.
Good luck and keep us up to date on your progress.
Suho1004: If you're interested in learning how CSS works, I'd say that you should definately give it try. It's fantastic as soon as you get used to it. I'd also be willing to lend you a hand where I can.
I'm currently building a CSS-only site without any tables, have a look at it!
Browser compatibility is no really bis issue as long as you don't want to try to make all the CSS work in Netscape 4.x (which I didn't manage at all yet!).
Thanks for all the info and advice. I will make sure to check out those sites tomorrow, but right now I think I need some sleep. I've just started to put this site together, so it may be a little while before I get on my feet and have something to show you guys.
I think I will at least give CSS a whirl and see what I can do with it. I appreciate all the offers for help; you can be sure that somewhere along the way I'll need it.
Thanks again, and I'll keep you all updated.
(Oh, as to what sort of site this is: it's not a business site--in brief, it's a site devoted to Korean folklore, a project that I've been meaning to do for a while. I have lots of ideas for it, but it will probably start out simple.)
Suho1004: The good people have given you links to all the best rsources there!! It may not be a business but a site on Korean folklore would attract a range of people with a range of browsers and I would recommend you give this some thought (or spend you time fielding 'why is your page broken in NS4.x questions - still what 4-5% of the general audience?). With a good grasp of CSS it should be possible to produce something that will work in all browsers with only the occasional carefully placed table (it is possible to make CSS-only layouts work in NS4.x but I haven't yet stumbled across a formula for it yet so give it a go and test a lot and drop it into site reviews and we'll test it and if nothing works throw a table in!!).
OK, I have just spent a while looking through all of those links you were all so kind enough to provide me with. I've just been trying to get a feel for the environment. On the one hand the new possibilities are exciting, but on the other hand they are terrifying. I'm out of my "comfort zone" now, and everything I once knew is now outdated. It's quite depressing, actually.
I do want to give CSS a try, and I suppose there is nothing left for me to do now but jump right in with the tutorials at my side. I guess I'll start with the main page, and see if I can't get something that works. If I can manage to do that, I'll put it in site reviews so you guys can give me the cold, hard truth on it.
Jeni: Content structure. Yes, I think that is the key. I will definitely keep that in mind.
Cprompt: You mentioned that some things that can be done with tables are hard to do in CSS... what things were you thinking about? I also noticed that you said "hard" and not "impossible," so I'm still clinging to a slim thread of hope.
Emperor: Good point. At least I hope that the site will attract a broad range of visitors. My primary goal is to make this site accessible to as many people as possible, even if that requires compromise. In other words, I don't want to use CSS for its own sake, but because it is the most efficient way to put together a page.
Thanks again, everyone, and look for some target practice in site reviews in the coming days!
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 04-20-2002 07:20
Suho, well one of the things that comes to mind is having CSS mimic a table with two <td>'s right beside each other. To do this in CSS and have it still be nice and "flowing" can be quite tricky. Another thing is to have an image span the distance of a <td>'s background with text or another image so that it will expand and contract with the size of the browser window.
Those are just a couple of things. Sometimes I can envision what a site would layout like using tables and then if I try to think about what it would consist of using CSS, well, let's just say it can give me a headache.
Don't get discouraged though. I think that using CSS for layour purposes it will do nothing but 1. Keep you up to date and 2. Open up another door to site design. I think it is very exciting really.
Check out bluerobots' layout resivoir and look at the code and see exactly how it is working with the positioning and all the elements. Also, I sometimes use a program called "TopStyle" I think you can get a waterdowned version here
It will give you a nice preview of what you are doing.
Wooo, I just checked out their site and man they have done some nice improvements to TopStyle!
Later,
C:\
~Binary is best~
[This message has been edited by CPrompt (edited 04-20-2002).]
CPrompt: Thanks for the link to TopStyle--it looks like a pretty nifty program. I remember the days when I would have shoved bamboo shoots up under my fingernails before using a WYSIWYG editor, but I realize that I'm starting all over again now--like learning how to walk again.
I was actually very impressed by the "click here to change the style sheet" link on Top Style's homepage. Even if I had seen nothing else, that would have been enough to nudge me toward CSS.
I also agree with you that CSS is exciting. Scary, but exciting--kind of like the idea of having sex for the first time. Hopefully I'll do a better job with CSS than I did with that my first time around!
I have spent a good portion of today just roaming here and there, following links and checking things out (as a matter of fact, I just came from the layout reservoir...). Unfortunately, my primary job calls, and I really need to get cracking on a couple of projects due on Monday. I also do have to put the finishing touches on my thesis, so the website is not my top priority right now. Hopefully I will be able to work on it in the "cracks" between other projects and studying. My first effort will most probably be a cannibalization of something from the layout reservoir. We'll see how it goes.
Sash: I just checked out css/edge--it pretty much blew my mind. It's a bit much for me to digest at the moment, but it has really opened my eyes to the power of CSS.
posted 04-19-2002 14:18
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